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Offlineseagu

Registered: 03/03/18
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Martha's input/output top or bottom
    #26463135 - 02/01/20 07:00 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

Ok so as the title asks. Which is better; humidified FAE flowing from top to exhaust on the bottom? Or humidified FAE flowing from the bottom to exhaust on the top?

I have read previous threads. I have read what RR says about it. RR says bottom to top. Gr0wer has his Martha going from top to bottom. But nothing has convinced me one way or the other which is better for a Martha setup. Does it even matter for a Martha as long as the FAE is enough? Has anyone tried both and compared results?


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: seagu] * 1
    #26463221 - 02/01/20 08:32 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

You'll probably hear both sides but since co2 tends to settle i'd exhaust out the bottom and intake from the top.  Probably doesn't matter, if you've got the air moving around enough inside like you should I'm sure either way would work.

:shrug:


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: Forrester]
    #26463288 - 02/01/20 09:23 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

Yes. I may hear both sides. I have noticed it seems most run top to bottom. I even am currently running top to bottom. But then afterwards I decided to look up if I should have done the opposite. You made mention you could never get the LM perfect in a Martha. So I got to wondering why and how to fix that. When I was top fruiting my Blues it seems that that angle because it is contrary to the air flow of a Martha was causing not optimal conditions even though they grew great for the first flush, so I changed to side fruiting by adding a shelf on each shelf. And yes I am running a circulation fan inside, plus the exhaust. I will find out very shortly how much this change has helped besides the look. Got some LM side fruiting first. Then Blues up after.

I respect RR and what he says greatly and he says because the fog is lighter than air to run from bottom to top and take advantage of nature in that regards. Which has me wondering if that also takes care of the fact that CO2 is heavier and tends to settle. But the fog wouldn't be flowing constantly either so.... But then you would have the evaporation effect during that time so could that also greatly help with the FAE? Considering that with Marthas there is less room for error because of the size and packing so much in the smaller space does these things add anything worth it to change the setup?


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: seagu]
    #26463471 - 02/01/20 11:18 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

seagu said:
I respect RR and what he says greatly and he says because the fog is lighter than air to run from bottom to top and take advantage of nature in that regards. Which has me wondering if that also takes care of the fact that CO2 is heavier and tends to settle. But the fog wouldn't be flowing constantly either so.... But then you would have the evaporation effect during that time so could that also greatly help with the FAE? Considering that with Marthas there is less room for error because of the size and packing so much in the smaller space does these things add anything worth it to change the setup?




In theory, what he said makes sense, but I think there's too many variables for that to be a set 'rule'.  I think it's gonna depend a lot like you said on what you've got in there.  I also think you could compare it both ways with co2 readings and all that and it probably wouldn't make that much of a difference either way, the amount of air going thru is what's going to make a difference.  But I could be wrong.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlineseagu

Registered: 03/03/18
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: Forrester]
    #26463531 - 02/01/20 11:59 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

Well what you say is basically what my thoughts have been and why I haven't even asked about it, but why not ask and see if anyone has tried both and knew one way or the other definitely besides theory.


--------------------
Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: seagu]
    #26463541 - 02/01/20 12:03 PM (4 years, 15 days ago)

Yeah I'm interested as well if anyone thinks it really matters either way!


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: Forrester]
    #26464415 - 02/01/20 10:25 PM (4 years, 15 days ago)

From what I understand RR suggested bottom to top because at the time people were using vics cool mist humidifiers and they are impeller type cool mist. People would pipe the mist to the tops and as a result the increased static pressure was burning out the motors.

If I recall correctly, Gr0wer suggested to pipe mist to top and vent out bottom because spores drop to the bottom and it's easier to carry them out with the exhaust.

With ultrasonic mist I found that piping it to the top would allow a more even distribution of the mist as it dropped with gravity to fill the entire volume of the chamber. You also dont need to fight against gravity to fill the entire volume with mist - you need less pressure and flow rate to achieve the same effect. Where as if you had it at the bottom you would need more pressure to push the mist all the way to the top.


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26464448 - 02/01/20 11:12 PM (4 years, 15 days ago)

:whathesaid:Total agreement


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26464748 - 02/02/20 07:10 AM (4 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DigitalRhizae said:
From what I understand RR suggested bottom to top because at the time people were using vics cool mist humidifiers and they are impeller type cool mist. People would pipe the mist to the tops and as a result the increased static pressure was burning out the motors.

If I recall correctly, Gr0wer suggested to pipe mist to top and vent out bottom because spores drop to the bottom and it's easier to carry them out with the exhaust.

With ultrasonic mist I found that piping it to the top would allow a more even distribution of the mist as it dropped with gravity to fill the entire volume of the chamber. You also dont need to fight against gravity to fill the entire volume with mist - you need less pressure and flow rate to achieve the same effect. Where as if you had it at the bottom you would need more pressure to push the mist all the way to the top.




Interesting. Although, the thread I read from RR, that I remember and caught my eye, was he said that humid air was lighter than dry air. Which was why he had suggested bottom to top. So he was saying it was easier to pull the mist up than down. He must have had several reasons then why he had suggested bottom to top. RR shroombasa had posted this that RR said on a thread that Gr0wer and others were discussing this subject. Here But, alas the thread never really settled it with any side by side comparisons of the two trains of thought on this. And since RR makes a compelling argument I was hoping someone since had tried and seen improved fruits one way or the other. Or maybe like we had already said that with proper air flow it doesn't really matter in a such a small space. Or will the little bit of extra for a small space help. But there are the links to the discussions I was referring to and that got me really thinking about all this.


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: seagu]
    #26470441 - 02/05/20 02:50 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Sorry I must have overlooked when reading your post about humid air being lighter than air and forgot about reading RR statements on it in the past.

I just did a short and quick test to demonstrate what I was saying about ultrasonic mist and how it travels/settles. I first ran the humidifier for about 4 minutes to fill the entire greenhouse with mist. Then I moved the mist input to the bottom and ran it for about 5 minutes. I then put it back in to the top and ran it for about 2m. As you can see in the pictures, when the input is on the bottom, the fog just sort of hangs around at the bottom and doesn't move, no matter how long the humidifier is ran for. When the input is at the top it only takes about 1m30s - 2m30s (depending on the ambient start humidity) to fill the entire volume of the greenhouse.

  input on bottom 5 minutes on                    input on top 2 minutes on

             

Humid air is lighter than dry air, that is a scientific fact, but I believe it comes down to a matter of time and how long it will take that humid air to move and fill the rest of the volume of air. And with gourmet that needs to be done fairly quickly as you have a time constraint for when your exhaust fan switches on and pulls in dry air, reducing the humidity (for me that's every 10 minutes). If there was an additional circulation fan in there than it might not matter where the input is, as the circulation will aid in moving that humid air around the greenhouse more efficiently. That circulation fan will also prevent any CO2 settling as it will mix in with the air, this has also been well established in the past. I could be way off base here with all of this though, so take it as you will, it's more based on my personal observations than anything.

The reason I settled on top input and bottom exhaust was because of g0wers suggestion and the mention (in the same thread you posted) that professional growers do it that way.


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Offlineseagu

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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: DigitalRhizae]
    #26470920 - 02/05/20 06:56 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Isn't your output at the bottom? Did you move the output to the top? It doesn't look like you did? That would make sense as to why it would hang around at the bottom. Oh and you don't have a constant air exchange like I do, with an exhaust fan always on. That too would make sense as to why the air for you would hang at the bottom because the fog created generally does that if you think of all those pond fog setups. It moves across the water surface but doesn't fly around in the air, except near the surface, unless propelled by a fan. And I am guessing your fan on your fogger isn't strong enough for the drastically increased pipe width which, would be the fruiting chamber, from the hose. The CFM stays the same but the air speed would be drastically reduced because of it. Then distance added to the decreased air speed because of the huge increase in "pipe" size would reduce the power to move the fog up on top of all that. And it kinda looks like your chamber isn't an air tight seal? These are my guesses as to why you are seeing what you are seeing.

For me I run an exhaust fan and a circulation fan along with the ultrasonic. The exhaust fan and circulation fan are always on. The ultrasonic turns on and off based upon humidity in my chamber and the fog is automatically pulled from the water bucket. So, for me, I don't think it would take longer to fill the chamber. But I would have to cut plastic and pipe to try piping in from the bottom and pulling out the top, and maybe have to deal with water buildup in certain areas because of the change, maybe not. But I was thinking of building a 5" box for the shelf to sit on so I could position the bottom and top pipes right in the center to hopefully help avoid any "dead spot" corners. Maybe not a bad idea no matter whether top or bottom input/output. hmm

I thought the general statement from RR somewhere was commercial cultivators exhaust from the top and input from the top, but they do that because they are not using the smaller martha's except maybe to get started with or for a test chamber. And so have a bigger fruiting chamber so the fog would drop down then get pulled back up. In that other thread gr0wer mentions input with a fan pushing the fog in and actually does make mention of what you saw with what you tried. But as my explanations above, I believe is why that is. Also, those single disc ultrasonic humidifiers that people use for colds and such that are also often used in cultivation will fill a fruiting chamber with fog top to bottom larger than a Martha while sitting on the bottom of the chamber. I have done this so know it works. And so the fog sitting on the bottom is I would think a situational thing based upon humidifier design and all the other stuff I am mentioning.

And although gr0wer does mention about top to bottom because of water falling and landing on mushrooms to later evaporate, that would still happen when the chamber gets filled from the bottom to the top when the water did fall as it wouldn't stay suspended forever.

Bleh, so I guess I won't know for sure unless I try. But I am not fully convinced one way or the other would be better for the mushrooms, as I was wondering about, to change my setup. Although, there could be situational setup reasons and advantage to go one way or another. It does seem maybe even in a Martha it still holds true that top input of air and humidity is more advantageous for the most part. But Evaporation goes up so that would create a natural air flow and going from bottom to top would take advantage of that, which is why I believe RR had mentioned about commercial cultivators exhausting from the Top while inputting from the top on the bigger chambers. Although, potentially pulling the air down across the tops of the mushrooms would cause more air to flow across the water on them causing a quicker evaporation and more natural airflow and eddies within the smaller space. :crazy2:


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Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.


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OfflineDigitalRhizae
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Re: Martha's input/output top or bottom [Re: seagu]
    #26471222 - 02/05/20 10:45 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Yes the exhaust is on the bottom. No I didn't move it to the top when doing the test, didn't think it was need to demonstrate what I was saying. Yes I have it timer based and its static until the fans turn on. I didn't know you had constant exhaust that makes a difference of course, the fog would definitely move if you had it constantly exhausting at the top and fogging the bottom, kind of similar to having just a circulation fan in there. No the fan definitely isn't strong enough to push decent pressure out that much pipe, (this was intentional) but it's more than adequate to push the fog up that piping to the top allowing it to fall. I'm actually getting close to or better humidification times with just a single 20mm disc fogger and a fan stripped from a sunbeam ultrasonic humidifier (the ones people use for colds) when compared to a sunbeam ultrasonic on the inside (not piped) or outside (piped to top). The problem with too powerful of a fan though, is that it'll kill the fog quickly and to get more pressure you need more foggers to compensate for the increased cfm or smaller shorter piping. I've used those sunbeam ultrasonics before and they definitely do fill the 4 tiers quickly. But in the past I had problems with them on the very bottom, with the fog not reaching the top and humidifying the greenhouse quickly enough. I had to put it on the second or third shelf from the bottom to get the whole tent, but maybe I had a bad unit. Which is why I then decided to move it outside the greenhouse. Also I found they will pull surrounding air into the case where the electrical components are, which can be unsafe and they will grow mold inside too. I guess it's all very situational and depends on how you're setup is as you and Forrest has mentioned.


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