Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26464840 - 02/02/20 08:36 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

So you're saying time doesn't exist? I have already acknowledged multiple times that the present moment is fundamentally important. But what is the objective extended dimension in which things happen? If the present is all that exists, why must we die?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26465012 - 02/02/20 10:08 AM (4 years, 15 days ago)

it is a leap into contradiction.
and a defiance of gravity and light.

time certainly exists, it is the self that is an illusion we creatures create out of our mental contents.
and those mental contents are often more of past impressions than of what is happening.

so living in the moment is also part of realizing no-self


Edited by redgreenvines (02/02/20 10:14 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26465062 - 02/02/20 10:41 AM (4 years, 14 days ago)

Well I agree. The way I see it, it’s not that time is objectively an abstraction that doesn’t really exist, but that it is a relative dimension that can be transcended. It exists well enough.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26466084 - 02/02/20 10:57 PM (4 years, 14 days ago)

.    Yes there is a paradox. Intellectually we know that the present moment is infinitesimally tiny, and yet we cannot escape it, and within it we age, and everything changes.

.    Another paradox is that time is linear, which is necessary for cause and effect to operate, yet time as we experience it is not linear. For instance movies are filled with flashbacks, as are stories, and much of how we interpret reality is based on past associations. The richness of the fabric of our lives is woven from stands of our ancestors lives, and our own childhood experiences, lessons we have learned and so on.
.    We are constantly, in our inner lives creating unique realities, and so is everyone else. So human life experience is a totally subjective reality, which we sometimes try and force fit into what we assume is objective truth.

.  That the physicists say time slows as we approach light speed, or that gravity may effect it, has nothing to do with our personal experiencing of time. Such objective truth simply isn't relevant as regards the personal reality of our experiencing.
.  But that drugs and the flow state, may change our perception of time, again suggests how subjective our realities maybe in spite of clocks and calendars.

.    It would seem that as individual selves we attach to our stories and the richness of our inner lives, as they relate to our desires, and future goals. So the emphasis teachers of meditation, mindfulness, & enlightenment place on being here now may at first seem strange, but if one takes the time to listen to them carefully I think their reasoning is very powerful.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26466241 - 02/03/20 04:04 AM (4 years, 14 days ago)

the moment is not a measure of time, but a slice of experiencing, one that can become 'fixed' into memory.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,248
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26466546 - 02/03/20 09:48 AM (4 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Well I agree. The way I see it, it’s not that time is objectively an abstraction that doesn’t really exist, but that it is a relative dimension that can be transcended. It exists well enough.




I tend to think of time as awareness of movement (and thus change). In this sense movement exists (or rather, happens) but perceptions of the past and future are abstractions which take place in the present. Are we moving away from the past and into the future, or are we just observing changes in the eternal present? Or is there a third option?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26466815 - 02/03/20 01:20 PM (4 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.    Yes there is a paradox. Intellectually we know that the present moment is infinitesimally tiny, and yet we cannot escape it, and within it we age, and everything changes.

.    Another paradox is that time is linear, which is necessary for cause and effect to operate, yet time as we experience it is not linear. For instance movies are filled with flashbacks, as are stories, and much of how we interpret reality is based on past associations. The richness of the fabric of our lives is woven from stands of our ancestors lives, and our own childhood experiences, lessons we have learned and so on.
.    We are constantly, in our inner lives creating unique realities, and so is everyone else. So human life experience is a totally subjective reality, which we sometimes try and force fit into what we assume is objective truth.

.  That the physicists say time slows as we approach light speed, or that gravity may effect it, has nothing to do with our personal experiencing of time. Such objective truth simply isn't relevant as regards the personal reality of our experiencing.
.  But that drugs and the flow state, may change our perception of time, again suggests how subjective our realities maybe in spite of clocks and calendars.

.    It would seem that as individual selves we attach to our stories and the richness of our inner lives, as they relate to our desires, and future goals. So the emphasis teachers of meditation, mindfulness, & enlightenment place on being here now may at first seem strange, but if one takes the time to listen to them carefully I think their reasoning is very powerful.





I agree that the temporal processes of physics, like time dilation, are usually separate from our subjective experience of time. But I think they come together at a certain point. Any psychonaut can tell you that as the experience really gets going, time slows relative to clocks in the room. So, this makes sense vis a vis relativity because the mind is really a consequence of the electric field of the brain, and something is going on here where time dilation comes in, although just how nobody knows. But this cannot be a coincidence -- as the electromagnetic field of the nervous system increases in energy, we get relativistic effects. I imagine there must be things about this in the literature of samadhi and satori states in Buddhism, but I do not know. Certainly, it is a well-known effect of the psychedelic experience. So at a certain intensity of brain function, relativistic effects do come in.

So how we explain this is unknown. But it is important to distinguish subjective vs. objective time processes. Subjectively, time can be seen as a consequence of the perception of the brain's processing of memory, and there is plenty of room here for the eternally present moment to come in. But this does not help us to know why time is slower in strong gravitational fields. I imagine at some point we shall learn where the subjective and objective sides of time come together, but as I have said, there is already evidence that they do in peak states. Ultimately, the subjective and objective components of time must be one.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDividedQuantumM
Outer Head
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,825
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Rahz]
    #26466819 - 02/03/20 01:26 PM (4 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I tend to think of time as awareness of movement (and thus change). In this sense movement exists (or rather, happens) but perceptions of the past and future are abstractions which take place in the present. Are we moving away from the past and into the future, or are we just observing changes in the eternal present? Or is there a third option?





Yes, I think movement itself is fundamental; perhaps it is the most fundamental thing in nature. I agree that the present is the only place we ever really are, and that time is ultimately derivative. The present is the cross-section between past and future, and we are indeed in a present in which, subjectively, past and future are always abstractions.

But of course, as pointed out in the above post, there is also an undeniable objective component to time, i.e. that treated in physics, which prevents the subjective component from being the whole story. In a book I once read by a physicist named Richard Muller, he gives an interesting way of conceptualizing objective time: Just as space is expanding from a cataclysmic event in the past, so must time be expanding outward as well. Perhaps our present is the cross-section between past and future of an expanding dimension or substance of time, and while we are always in the present, past and future have some sort of objective reality. It's an interesting way to think about it, at the very least.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26467006 - 02/03/20 03:25 PM (4 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Certainly, it is a well-known effect of the psychedelic experience. So at a certain intensity of brain function, relativistic effects do come in.




.    I wouldn't take this idea too seriously. All the yogis, buddhas & gurus, die within a normal  human life span no matter how much time they spend in Samadhi. And the same is true of all the psychedelic explorers and shamen.

.  And as we know the Buddhist teaching is not about the liberation of the self -
but the liberation from the self, and even more so not about mistaking long life, as a worthwhile goal.

.  Very specifically the Buddhist teaching is not about belief. And that includes beliefs about time & the origin of the universe. The 8 fold path is meant to be a methodology a person can employ experimentally to discover for themselves if it reduces suffering. If the individual discovers it has such effects, then they will tend to explore the path further naturally, without the necessity of dogma, defending a belief system, or ideology or cosmology.
.  It is of course claimed that along with reduced suffering/stress/anxiety, there will arise profound insights regarding reality - but it is also emphasized that knowing what these insights are before hand, is no substitute for experiencing them personally & deeply within.

The biography of Nikola Tesla, is a tragedy. One of the smartest people ever, who  benefited all of civilization, ended up lonely, poor, mentally disturbed, & unrecognized.
Leonardo Da Vinci also one of the smartest people ever, also died depressed.

.  So although Buddha's saying all he taught was "the end of suffering"; sounds pretty trivial to those who aren't aware of the inner working of the constant conditioning process we are all caught in; when we see the uselessness of intelligence & answers (in the life of Tesla for example, among many others) by themselves to bring any lasting peace, it suggests Buddha's aim was perhaps more relevant than it is often given credit for.

.  And all such methods (of mindfulness & meditation) do involve abandoning a lot of what lay people call entertainment, but adepts call distractions. Interestingly professions such as the martial arts and acrobatics (among some others) also recognize the miracle of an awareness that has been trained to stay present.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26467530 - 02/03/20 08:53 PM (4 years, 13 days ago)

I was with you until the last little paragraph.

I don't see a path of abandoning at all. I see learning to observe mental formations, including entertainments, I am certain a person can become aware of where they are at (being present), and not need to change anything. just get more into doing it in a way that keeps observing, and snapping back gently when distracted.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelaughingdog
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,829
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26468347 - 02/04/20 11:36 AM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Probably true (of having distractions) for many, but not for others.
In the "not true category" I would put boxers, martial "artists", and flying trapeze acrobats.

Not true for me (having no distractions), and I do understand that in noting practice they are noted, but not pursued.
But of course their are humans that go into states where they are undistracted.
I think that's partly what 'samadhi' refers to, and of course a distracted boxer etc. is toast.

I would guess that even animals go into such states naturally. If one observes a cat hunting, of which the first stage is stalking, silently, with total focus, one sees this sort of thing. Of course they have a focus that is split between the prey, and a broader awareness of the rest of the environment, but animals that stalk are not distracted by thoughts, fantasies, residual feelings, or other inner noise, IMO.


Edited by laughingdog (02/04/20 11:56 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 4 years, 1 day
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26468536 - 02/04/20 01:32 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

All moments matter. The idea is to vary focus so as to see and experience different things. I can 'go back' in my mind and be 'present' in a past experience and extract just as much beauty as being intensely focused in a present.
Not sure why much verbiage is needed on this concept.

You won't achieve the fidelity that is referenced by the concept without a lot of effort/refinement of introspection.
Nothing in life is free, if you want to have a powerful perception, you have to frequently exercise and develop it through hard work.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,704
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26468572 - 02/04/20 01:57 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

samadhi, which is a side effect of concentration, is in a different direction
than hunting prey or martial arts; i.e. inner versus outer oriented.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystalizedFungi
Different
I'm a teapot


Registered: 02/04/20
Posts: 21
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26468936 - 02/04/20 05:40 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Time is the scariest boogieman the human mind can believe in/perceive!

...its a great fairytale that keeps you from smelling the roses....its what makes the waking dream, a waking nightmare.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 4 years, 1 day
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469071 - 02/04/20 06:59 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Time is the scariest boogieman the human mind can believe in/perceive!

...its a great fairytale that keeps you from smelling the roses....its what makes the waking dream, a waking nightmare.



Time is just a dimensional construct. It's not a boogie man.
It's not a belief. It simply is and exists like gravity.
It's not a fiarytale. It is quite clearly fact.
There is no waking dream or nightmare. Reality is quite real. If you die today, your room and everything in it and the world will still exists.

If a person fails to grasp/understand time and how to manipulate it and utilize it to its full value, it's their own fault and problem. Losing capture of time btw can lead to a real world mental nightmare. It's not a boogieman and quite frankly its the only thing that allows you to make sense of and grasp reality. If it is suspended for any prolonged amount of time you can quite frankly lose your natural mind.

People learn a way to manipulate their perception of time and they behave like kids pertaining to the subject and experience. The present is no more grand than the past or future. I can personally project into any state I wish along this dimensional framing and 'be in it'. If you can't or you just figured out how to 'be in the moment' and are seemingly addicted to the idea and think it is the holy grail of 'perception' then quite frankly you got lost in the sauce... because in that you fail to grasp the power of the past and the future for that matter.

Float and be as you are, were, and can be constructively, perceptively, and progressively to higher roads.
The end.

There is no fairy-tale/dream/nightmare. You are here and there is a purpose. You will have issue until you find it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystalizedFungi
Different
I'm a teapot


Registered: 02/04/20
Posts: 21
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469104 - 02/04/20 07:26 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Time is just a tool to utilize in this plane of existence...
Does it exist outside of this plane...only time will tell;)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 4 years, 1 day
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469159 - 02/04/20 07:57 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Time is just a tool to utilize in this plane of existence...




And this plane is quite frankly where all human beings are... Even those that think they've specially transcended it only to be reminded every day they haven't. There are no Gods among men. Physical is physical and you're physical and here along with everyone else and bound by time.

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Does it exist outside of this plane...only time will tell;)




Planes are planes.. dimensions are dimensions. x,y,z.. t (time) .. a,b,c .. 1,2,3 out to n. Until a new one is well defined by science, what is simply is.

Time? You got 100 years. Nothing amazing happens in such small time scales.
You're going to die long before there is any fundamental science on the concept of time... You'd live and die several times over

You're not God. You can't physically transcend planes. However, your powerful mind can allow you to glimpse and tap into it... Something far different from manifesting it in this reality and/or manipulating it outside of your head and or changing something beyond a plane you have access to.

It's funny to play with the idea you can and live in that 'reality'.. but this is fairytale.. One only you perceive. A grand one and a fantasy land once you master it but that doesn't change a single thing in reality unless you can manifest it.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCrystalizedFungi
Different
I'm a teapot


Registered: 02/04/20
Posts: 21
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469199 - 02/04/20 08:29 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

I like to believe I am made of energy and I'm under the impression that energy is constant.  Once my physical body finally fails and falls apart, my energy will still exist in some way, shape or form...and since energy is constant that would make my essence everlasting and thus making Time pointless, atleast when it comes to the bigger picture.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offliner00tcmplx
Stranger

Registered: 02/19/18
Posts: 419
Last seen: 4 years, 1 day
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469381 - 02/04/20 10:06 PM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
I like to believe I am made of energy and I'm under the impression that energy is constant.  Once my physical body finally fails and falls apart, my energy will still exist in some way, shape or form...and since energy is constant that would make my essence everlasting and thus making Time pointless, atleast when it comes to the bigger picture.



Beliefs are powerful things. Everyone has them and they don't change reality.
The after-life even doesn't change reality. You die and your energy can do whatever it wants and everyone else and everything is still here doing its thing. On a personal level, believe as you wish. You are entitled to it. While you exist in the present reality along with everything else, your beliefs impact nothing beyond what you can physically manifest from them. Time is real. Everything in the physical is bound to it. The after-life and deeper natures of reality are unknown. Scientists will come to prove/establish what it is or isn't. For now, people have theories/beliefs.. Valid concepts but something that isn't tangible or workable and isn't proven. I have a personal belief in reincarnation and thus a similar concept as you. However, time is quite real and a tangible concept for me that is important and essential. There's no reason for me to run off muddying up reality without any perceivable benefit. I can project and be in different times of my my experience/universe but this is largely due to a lot of things in my brain which is not fully understood.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,949
Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469523 - 02/05/20 12:36 AM (4 years, 12 days ago)

Does the present moment matter if you're deluded? Ignorance is bliss, feel this energy man.. yo.

Energy doesn't mean jack alone, but I'm sensing the energy in this room is to step back so I'm off.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Past, present and future Jenherself 918 11 04/18/03 02:09 AM
by infidelGOD
* reincarnation
( 1 2 3 all )
CleverName 6,566 52 11/10/02 01:01 PM
by Shroomism
* just a thought on past present and future using theories of CleverName 628 4 03/27/03 11:44 AM
by AislingGheal
* PRESENT Deiymiyan 818 10 05/02/03 11:02 AM
by Sole_Worthy
* Reincarnation failwebsite 814 8 06/06/03 01:27 AM
by Swami
* The Idea of Evolution is BS
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 18,846 165 07/21/02 09:44 AM
by whiterastahippie
* If you could choose one moment...
( 1 2 all )
Swami 1,828 31 06/29/03 10:59 AM
by Boppity604
* what matters? foo 1,148 9 09/03/01 09:14 AM
by NDK

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
1,077 topic views. 1 members, 5 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.021 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 14 queries.