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Led Zeppelin
Tripper


Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 3,962
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Should you be able to patent a chemical?
#26464138 - 02/01/20 06:24 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Does synthesizing a new chemical compound really count as an ‘invention’? Millions of chemical compounds have been created at this point and patents are driving up drug costs in America. This would be a great way to save millions of families from turmoil. No more drug patents, let the free market reign.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions



Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,805
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 6 hours, 17 minutes
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#26464168 - 02/01/20 06:46 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Yes, absolutely. Pharmaceutical companies spend millions of dollar to develop new drugs. Generally they have a patent that makes them own the product they developed for 10 years so they can make their money back with a profit in order to pay for the creation of other new drugs. After 10 years, everybody can make the drug which makes the price of it drop
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Led Zeppelin
Tripper


Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 3,962
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Patlal]
#26464174 - 02/01/20 06:49 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Are a large portion of those funds spent on development spent on government ‘BS’?
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sh4d0ws
LSx


Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 12,086
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
#26464247 - 02/01/20 07:21 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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who will make new meds if it isnt gonna be profitable
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 21,251
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: sh4d0ws] 1
#26464278 - 02/01/20 07:48 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Thats the same excuse for the govt not negotiating drug prices. Fuck it. give out contracts to develop new meds. Profit is built in up front.
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metalfaith
Moron



Registered: 03/30/11
Posts: 1,842
Loc: FL
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26464389 - 02/01/20 09:57 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Why not have a R/D portion of the government that does this as well?
I'm sure the conservatives would implode at the idea, but shit, seems like a good one to me. Save us all billions in pharmaceutical dollars?
At the end of the day though - the days of real drug innovation are over, are they not? Seems to me 9/10 of the drugs that are patented these days are blatant attempts at thievery.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: metalfaith] 2
#26464856 - 02/02/20 08:50 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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A government research and development program sounds like a horrible idea. Mediocre scientists with solid job security being paid to run endless tests and studies. That's a recipe for government waste.
Private companies have an incentive to focus on hard science and abandon the fringe/unlikely theories. Efficiency is built into profit-motivated research. Time and time again, private companies have developed drugs and medical procedures/devices that have furthered human health.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 21,251
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil] 2
#26464878 - 02/02/20 09:01 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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the government pays for much of the basic research that leads to real discoveries. Private companies have an incentive to research boner pills.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26465041 - 02/02/20 10:28 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Sounds unsupported and anecdotal.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



Registered: 12/18/12
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Loc: attending Snake Church
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil]
#26465084 - 02/02/20 11:01 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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So how do we retain the innovation provided by the profit motive, and not pay absurdly more for pharma than other countries. Canada is not exactly communist.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26465093 - 02/02/20 11:04 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I'm not sure we can. Of course, the time limits on patents ensure that innovations do become cheaper over time.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 21,251
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil]
#26465098 - 02/02/20 11:05 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK50972/
Quote:
Historically, the largest government investments in basic drug discovery research have been made by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) has also contributed to the discovery stage by taking on some relatively high-risk biologic projects. Moreover, in part as a result of the public’s impatience with the slow pace of the discovery process, state governments are increasingly taking the initiative in this area. One such example is the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine, a state agency established in 2005 by the California Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative, which provides grants and loans for stem cell research and facilities at California’s research institutions and universities. Another example is the Texas Cancer Initiative, under which state funds are dedicated to cancer research conducted in Texas. Beyond these public investments, private foundations are also taking a significant financial interest in the discovery process, facilitating progress by funding research in their particular areas of interest.
At the other end of the continuum is late-stage development, which is funded primarily by pharmaceutical companies or venture capitalists with some collaborative support from government sources, such as NIH. Such partnerships are critical in the transition from proof of concept to clinical development.
http://www.bu.edu/articles/2015/funding-for-scientific-research/
Quote:
At BU, whose researchers study an enormous range of subjects, from the birth of frogs to the birth of planets, about 80 percent of the roughly $350 million for sponsored research received in FY 2014 (down from a 2010 peak of $407 million) came directly from the federal government, and another 10 percent originated in government grants and came to BU through other institutions, such as Harvard or MIT.
...Across the Charles River at Harvard, university data show a clear shift toward corporate and foundation funding. There, 75 percent of research is paid for by the government...
Matt Hourihan, director of the AAAS R&D Budget and Policy Program, says the notion that corporate and foundation sponsors are waiting in the wings is a comforting one, but his association’s research has found no evidence that it’s true. So far, says Hourihan, the biggest increases have come from university coffers. “Industry contributions haven’t increased appreciably, and I’m not sure we have a clear enough picture on the philanthropic front yet.”
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/who_pays
Quote:
Today, researchers are likely to be funded by a mix of grants from various government agencies, institutions, and foundations. For example, a 2007 study of the movement of carbon in the ocean was funded by the National Science Foundation, the U.S. Department of Energy, the Australian Cooperative Research Centre, and the Australian Antarctic Division.1 Other research is funded by private companies — such as the pharmaceutical company that financed a recent study comparing different drugs administered after heart failure.
In a perfect world, money wouldn't matter — all scientific studies (regardless of funding source) would be completely objective. But of course, in the real world, funding may introduce biases — for example, when the backer has a stake in the study's outcome. A pharmaceutical company paying for a study of a new depression medication, for example, might influence the study's design or interpretation in ways that subtly favor the drug that they'd like to market. There is evidence that some biases like this do occur. Drug research sponsored by the pharmaceutical industry is more likely to end up favoring the drug under consideration than studies sponsored by government grants or charitable organizations.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26465106 - 02/02/20 11:13 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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All of that seems to support the argument that the profit motive is responsible for most of the market-ready innovations.
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MycoBrainz
Mycotic



Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 616
Loc: West Coast
Last seen: 15 days, 8 hours
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil]
#26465113 - 02/02/20 11:16 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Go Capitalism.
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PFC x Creeper Lets Get Stoned
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: MycoBrainz]
#26465119 - 02/02/20 11:19 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Capitalism sucks, but we haven't yet found something that works better.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 5 months, 8 days
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Brian Jones] 3
#26465455 - 02/02/20 02:52 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: So how do we retain the innovation provided by the profit motive, and not pay absurdly more for pharma than other countries. Canada is not exactly communist.
How about hiring the best scientists by paying them more rather than "mediocre scientists" as Enlil proposed?
How about large bonuses for the scientists that actually discover/create the best drugs, rather than higher profits for giant pharma companies?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (02/02/20 03:01 PM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,523
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 2 hours, 55 minutes
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Thats a good idea Fal....but what about the production, distribution, and the general logistics of the newly found chemical? There is a tremendous infrastructure (insert cost) that has nothing to do with scientists.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (02/02/20 03:20 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#26465492 - 02/02/20 03:23 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I think he's banking on the fact that there will be plenty of pharma companies who will manufacture the new drugs, much like there are today. When a drug is about to lose a patent, many companies start tooling to produce that drug.
The problem with the idea is that it is subject to the political tides. The idea of paying scientists so much money out of tax dollars will become more or less appealing to voters as time goes on. Similarly, voters will determine which goals to target and which not to.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,957
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil]
#26465582 - 02/02/20 04:18 PM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Here's "my molecule" a recreational dissociative.
We might call it Asantecylidine or Shroomerolicyclidine 

I Grant you a licence to manufacture and distribute it to the part of the general public appreciative of RC's.
If you throw money at it, you can have a pilot batch synthesized, titrate the effective oral dose, have ten million pills struck and distribute wholesale.
God bless you
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,308
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
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Re: Should you be able to patent a chemical? [Re: Enlil]
#26466199 - 02/03/20 02:09 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: A government research and development program sounds like a horrible idea. Mediocre scientists with solid job security being paid to run endless tests and studies. That's a recipe for government waste.
Private companies have an incentive to focus on hard science and abandon the fringe/unlikely theories. Efficiency is built into profit-motivated research. Time and time again, private companies have developed drugs and medical procedures/devices that have furthered human health.
Private industry develops and markets concepts that were discovered with public funding. This is almost universally true. Most research happens in university labs.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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