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Offlinedark-goblin
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Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated"
    #26462206 - 01/31/20 01:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I see many people repeating this:

Quote:

"an isolate will give you a more even pinset, canopies, better fruit in general compared to a multispore."




But is it not also true that each spore print reduces genetic variance by a nontrivial degree (let's say about 50%) each generation; this "inbreeding" means by the 5th or 6th generation of spore-prints from the same lineage, heterozygosity is reduced to the point you can observe "stabilization" of the genotype?

At this point, a spore print will perform similarly to a clone or genetic isolate, in that the fruit will be even ("stabilized") with low genetic variance.

Now, this kind of process will allegedly lead to senescence and mutation eventually, but the point is: multispores can be as reliable as isolates for producing uniform flushes.

HOWEVER: Inbreeding multispore to "stability" should be seen as inferior to isolating as the mycelium of an isolate is "younger".

HOWEVER HOWEVER: When we receive a spore print, or a LC, or any kind of "source" genetics from which we go on to fruit (that isn't wild) we don't know the lineage of the genetic material we are getting. We don't know if we're getting a spore print from a 6th generation inbreeding cycle, or a 1st gen wild print. So how can we say with certainty that an isolate will for sure produce better results than the multispore we have, unless we know for sure that the multispore is highly heterozygotic?


Edited by dark-goblin (01/31/20 01:57 PM)


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OfflineThe Mycologist
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Registered: 05/06/16
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Re: Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated" [Re: dark-goblin]
    #26462246 - 01/31/20 02:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Youre confusing me

A drop of spore solution has millions of different genetic varieties.

So does a agar wedge that has not been isolated.

If you take a clone from a fruit and further isolate it to be only one variety then the only thing growing is that genetic material, so the shrooms will be more uniform.


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That the powerful play goes on, and you will contribute a verse.”
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InvisibleDarkslide
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Re: Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated" [Re: The Mycologist] * 3
    #26462280 - 01/31/20 02:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

1. Start with a cage containing five apes. In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the banana.

2. As soon as the ape touches the stairs, spray all the apes with cold water. After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result - all the apes are sprayed with cold water.

3. Turn off the cold water. If, later, another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes will try to prevent it even though no water sprays at them.

4. Now, remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new one. The new ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the apes attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

5. Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

6. Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest ape.

7. After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the apes which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced.

Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs. Why not?

BECAUSE that's the way it's always been done around here.

Courtesy of Jeff Bridges

Truth is we don't know lol. We also see reports of success far more than those of failure leaving us with only part of the picture.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated" [Re: Darkslide] * 2
    #26462329 - 01/31/20 03:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Varieties made from successive generations spore to spore increase homozygosity / decrease heterozygosity. So when you grow albino PE you will 99.99% of the time see dick shaped albinos. With that said there's still plenty of variance in yield, size, potency, etc...

Like two black parents will make a black kid. And if they have 5 kids they'll all be unique. Some may be tall some short etc... But we can almost guarantee the kids will come out dark skinned.
An isolate is like making identical twins. Your performance is going to be very similar between grows but even using a genetic isolate you'll even still see variation as gene expression involves a myriad of stimuli both environmental and endogenous.


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Offlinedark-goblin
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Registered: 01/16/20
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Re: Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated" [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26463128 - 02/01/20 06:51 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thank you bod, that is quite a clear way to put it; assuming we can make such a clean analogy with human genetics.

Is it true, then, to say that there is a similar degree of variance involved with a highly "stabilized" (5 or 6 spore generations) genetic strain, compared to a genetic isolate?

Or is it more accurate to say that "stabilized" strains that are highly inbred, at the point in their genetic lineage where there isn't much heterozygosity, will be so far senesced, prone to mutation, and "less vigorous", that a younger isolate (of a known/tested fruiter) is always going to perform better, so to speak?

I'm trying to understand two things (on a very high level obviously):

  • the genetic difference between a younger isolate and an older "stable" phenotype, assuming the genetic variance had been reduced to <0.01% in the "stable" candidate.
  • why more importance isn't placed on understanding the source of genetic material, be it spores/LC/any other form of mycelium


It seems to me that understanding the source of genetic material is quite important from a mycological standpoint.

Or perhaps I'm ignorant and this is something that is actively addressed by sellers/traders and it doesn't get mentioned much, because it's a non-issue (due to mycologist vigilance)?


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Mushroom Genetics: "Stable" vs "Isolated" [Re: dark-goblin]
    #26463269 - 02/01/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Lots of vendors buy prints. So when you buy gt or b+ etc... you only kind of know what you're getting anyway.


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