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InvisibleHighDesert
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Vacuum Desiccation (drying) * 1
    #26461366 - 01/31/20 01:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I'd like to say a huge THANK YOU to this comunity. Thank you all for sharing! Time for my first contribution although it may not be very valuable.

I was very curious about using a vacuum chamber to lower the boiling point of H2O and effectively dry mushrooms fast at room temperature. I've seen a few people asking about this but no one had any definitive experience. So with the help of a friend, time for tests. The idea was to dry 50g in vacuum and another 50g in a dehydrator. Then test each for potency. A set of manifold guages for working on AC systems, a cheap HVAC vacuum pump and a modified mason jar lid with the proper fitting were used to apply vacuum. Fresh PESA were harvested and used for this. 50 wet grams were put in a mason jar with the custum lid.


50 more wet grams were put in a American harvest dehydrator as a comparison.


The dehydrator was set to 130f and the vacuum pump was turned on. Internal temp of the dehydrator was measured with a Infrared thermometer to make sure it was accurate (131f).


Both ran for a hour before re-weighing both samples.
1 hour:
Dehydrator = 35g
Vacuum Chamber = 33.6g (promising)



Both were re-loaded and turned back on for another 5 hours before weighing them again.
6 hours:
Dehydrator = 12.2g
Vacuum Chamber = 26.5g (not promising)



And again 2 hours later.
8 hours:
Dehydrator = 8.4g
Vacuum Chamber = 21.1g



At this point the decision was made to give up on the vacuum pump all together as it was so much slower than the dehydrator. A lot more bruising on the vacuum samples was observed. The oxidation could have come from handling them while weighing but it also could have been a result of boiling out the water from the inside. They felt wet to the touch every time they were removed from the chamber to weigh them. Because the vacuum drying had slowed down so much compared to the dehydrator, there was doubt that a high enough vacuum was was being reached. The mason jar was then half filled with water capped with the lid and the same vacuum applied. The water immediately began to vigorously boil. The vacuum proved to be sufficient.

I had read someone else's post about this process and they felt that either their vacuum dried specimens had lost their potency in the process or that they had really bad genetics. They didn't give a definitive answer about which was the case. Now my best guess is that they oxidized all the actives. Just a guess and it seemed unlikely that oxidation would occur in a vacuum but this test's observed bruising leads me to believe that vacuum desiccation is a destructive process. Either way, it's so much slower that it doesn't prove to be a viable alternative to dehydrators.


Edited by HighDesert (01/31/20 02:11 AM)


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Offlinesusurrador
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26461470 - 01/31/20 04:11 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It sounds like you're on the verge of rediscovering freeze drying.

Freeze drying is the process of warming and cooling frozen (foods usually) under vacuum to remove moisture.

The process is called sublimation.

Basically taking water from a solid to a vapor and whisking it away under vacuum without becoming liquid in between.

Cold steam maybe?

There's a residential size freeze dryer on the market these days by a company called Harvest Right. Some hash heads use them to freeze dry their hash to preserve terpenes. Most people probably use them for food preservation.

I have wondered how shrooms would preserve in a freeze dryer. I've seen regular mushrooms sliced and freeze dried and they were great. The process requires extreme cold (part of the reason for the vacuum I believe but don't quote me). The fact that the shrooms would go from frozen to dry, skipping wet sounds promising.


--------------------
"If it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it."



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OfflineEdmunter
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: susurrador] * 1
    #26461524 - 01/31/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

This community is full of mad professors.  I bloody love it!  Keep up the good work.......


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: susurrador]
    #26461977 - 01/31/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

susurrador said:
It sounds like you're on the verge of rediscovering freeze drying.
...




I would think that freeze drying would be pretty cost prohibitive? $2k and up. One could purchase a HVAC vacuum pump and charging hose for $60-70 on amazon. However, I'm obviously not sold on vacuum desiccation being able to deliver actives to the finished, dried samples.


Edited by HighDesert (01/31/20 02:12 PM)


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26461978 - 01/31/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

One concern was efficiency. The American Harvest dehydrator is heat controlled and has a built in thermostat. When it's heating and fanning (about 50% of the time), it uses a measured 780 watts of electricity. When its just fanning, it uses a measured 25 watts. That's around 400 watts average.

The vacuum pump runs at a constant 120 watts under load.

I think another proper test is in order, maybe with desiccant added to the vacuum chamber. It would be interesting to know how many kilowatt hours each required for full drying. Also, the potency test wasn't done. I guess I'll have to wait for my friend's next crop.


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26462020 - 01/31/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It's an interesting experiment. But dehydrators cost $30-40 and they work perfectly.


--------------------
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The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26462237 - 01/31/20 02:10 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
But dehydrators cost $30-40 and they work perfectly.



True but if you are using them often, 400 watts for 24-36 hours adds significant costs to your electric bill every month. I'm leaning towards dehydrators being best at the moment. However, up front cost is not the only cost. My friend who has been harvesting for the last 8 weeks has seen their electric bill go up by over $100 a month just from using the dehydrator. It does depend greatly on the price of electricity where you live.


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert] * 1
    #26462255 - 01/31/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I call bs

A dehydrator pulls less power than a mini fridge and those dont cost 100 per month to run 24hrs a day.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: mushboy]
    #26462305 - 01/31/20 03:09 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

At this point the decision was made to give up on the vacuum pump all together as it was so much slower than the dehydrator. A lot more bruising on the vacuum samples was observed. The oxidation could have come from handling them while weighing but it also could have been a result of boiling out the water from the inside.



It could have been from the lack of heat. I microwaved a mushroom briefly and then squished it next to an unheated one. You can see the difference. Heat breaks down the enzymes that cause the blue bruising.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: Kizzle] * 1
    #26462374 - 01/31/20 03:55 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That's why I suggest running a dehydrator above 160F as it will denature enzymes responsible for degrading potency. As well faster to dry is faster to locking in potency. Slow drying methods suck in my experience


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: mushboy]
    #26462454 - 01/31/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
I call bs

A dehydrator pulls less power than a mini fridge and those dont cost 100 per month to run 24hrs a day.




Mini fridge compressors run maybe once an hour for a few minutes at a time. I haven't tested how many watts they draw but I'd guess it's less than a hundred when the compressor is on. This dehydrator was measured at 780watts while heating. The setting of 130 allows the heating element to cycle off for approximate 50% duty time. That's why I averaged the wattage to a guessed 400w. Turned up to Max heat and the duty time goes way up. There is no way a heated dehydrator uses less energy than a minifridge. Maybe an unheated one but then it's really just a fan and even then, it will probably use more energy than a mini-fridge in a 24 hour period.


Edited by HighDesert (01/31/20 04:49 PM)


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26462466 - 01/31/20 04:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Nesco food dehydrators pull about 400watts.

I've run 3 of them for days on end. Doesnt add 100bux to the bill maybe 5 max.

Probably preserved lbs are worth the few bucks it cost to dry em.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: mushboy] * 1
    #26462483 - 01/31/20 05:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

In 2016, Hawaii residents paid 27.5 cents per kilowatt hour on average for electricity. That was the highest rate in the nation and compared to 12.5 cents on average nationally

400W draw
0.4 KWH
0.4*27.5=
11 cents an hour in Hawaii.
2.64 a day to run it 24/7 in Hawaii
So even in Hawaii you could run a dehydrator 24/7 a whole month and it would cost less than 90 dollars.

Does your friend live in the international space station. Maybe that would actually explain a $100 increase :rofl:

Grow an extra ounce of mushrooms a month or something. Why then fuck save money on electricity efficiency for drying drugs anyway lol. Protect your investment :shrug:


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26462680 - 01/31/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I have one of those Kill-A-Watt meters and my apartment-size household refrigerator pulls about 85-90W when running. My mini fridges have all been around 75-85W. My dehydrator is pretty big and pulls about 700W and costs ~$1.25 per run. Those home freeze driers use about 900W from what I could find and have to run for 24-36hr.

Vacuum drying is usually done with heat added to speed the process in what's called a vacuum oven. Freeze drying is typically done for things that can't tolerate being dried at even room temperature like biological specimens or food intended for very long-term storage. Vacuum desiccators (which is what this thread started with) are not really used for drying things out, but more for storing dry things that have to stay dry.


--------------------
"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
- Terrence McKenna


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26462697 - 01/31/20 07:19 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
...
Does your friend live in the international space station. Maybe that would actually explain a $100 increase :rofl:

Grow an extra ounce of mushrooms a month or something. Why then fuck save money on electricity efficiency for drying drugs anyway lol. Protect your investment :shrug:



I think my friend's utility charges a higher prices based on how much electricity is used. When more is used, the price per killowatt hour goes up. They went from paying a very small amount to doubling after adding a hot tub. When harvest time hit, it went up another hundred. No other big electrical draws were added.


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26462939 - 01/31/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I see no notes on how much vacuum you're pulling. The bruising is bc under vacuum the shrooms have to expand some to let out the water and this is probably damaging tissue in a cellular level. You can see what I'm talking about in exaggerated style by putting a marshmallow in there. Did those shrooms have a weird texture when finished? Dehydrating them they shrink and release the water that way so you get dense dry fruits that make that bone sound when you drop them.

Vacuum is good but it's not straight vacuum that does the job. What you want is an inline desiccant tube connected to a small port on your vac chamber. This let's the vacuum pull enough vac to start pulling water out but it constantly is leaking in fresh dry air. Depending on how humid your environment is the inline desiccant chamber should last for days.

Lots of ways to make one but imagine a quart jar full of rock salt or calcium chloride. Microwave the shit out of it or bake it at 180 for a couple hours. (Temp isn't real important there won't be much moisture anyway, just needs to stay hot enough the salt won't be able to pull moisture from the air) then stick a tube through the lid down into the bottom of the salt. Connect the hose to your vac chamber. Punch another tiny hole in the jar lid. Your vac will pull air through the tiny hole in the lid, up through the salt which will dry it and then be pulled into the vac chamber and out the pump.

Having a sealed vac chamber disperses the water into the chamber but if dry air isn't there to replace it then that 90% water weight is stuck floating around. That's why they didn't dry right.

Really strong vac at room temp will not work as well as a vented system with gentle heat. You can use Boyles law to calculate how much vac you need for a desired boiling point. I run 15-20 psi. If you can get around -35 psi with that pump then you're set. You prob get way more than that already. Having it vented might save your chamber from imploding as well.


--------------------


Germinating old spores progress page
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:spiralflip::spiralflip:




Edited by spiritlands (01/31/20 11:51 PM)


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Offlinejbgtaa
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert] * 1
    #26462995 - 02/01/20 01:51 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

HighDesert said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
But dehydrators cost $30-40 and they work perfectly.



True but if you are using them often, 400 watts for 24-36 hours adds significant costs to your electric bill every month. I'm leaning towards dehydrators being best at the moment. However, up front cost is not the only cost. My friend who has been harvesting for the last 8 weeks has seen their electric bill go up by over $100 a month just from using the dehydrator. It does depend greatly on the price of electricity where you live.



Bullshit.

I’ve had a space heater running in my apartment since the beginning of November and haven’t seen an increase in My electric bill. Post proof and black out incriminating info and MAYBE we’ll believe you but one single dehydrator (or even 3 for that matter) isn’t going to raise your bill by more than a couple dollars, and if you can spend money on mush supplies those dollars shouldn’t even matter.

Your statement was complete nonsense.

EDIT: if the cost of electricity in your “friends” city is that high he should consider leaving that town. A space heater is the exact same thing as a dehydrator in most case minus the enclosure (probably pulls more than a dehydrator).

My space heater pulls 1500 watts (almost 3 Presto Dehydros) and hasn’t noticeably raised bill. Maybe by a dollar, but my bill is around 100 dollars every month, and believe me I still get paper bills and reconcile them, I would know if my bill had gone up.


--------------------
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Edited by jbgtaa (02/01/20 02:16 AM)


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InvisibleSir Pentinite
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: spiritlands]
    #26463592 - 02/01/20 12:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Using a 400W load for 36hr a month is going to cost you maybe a couple bucks. Downsize your Starbucks a few times and you've paid for it. Smoke a half pack less that month, recycle some cans & bottles, I dunno.

Running it nonstop is going to cost quite a bit more. 400W for 24hr for 30 days = 288kWh. If you live where it's a straight $0.10/kWh all the time, then yeah it's only $29. If you live where there are bullshit baselines and tiers and peak/off-peak billing, then it can/will add a whole lot more.

Quote:

spiritlands said:
If you can get around -35 psi with that pump then you're set.




That's not possible when sea level atmospheric pressure is only ~14.7psi.


--------------------
"I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'"
- Terrence McKenna


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: Sir Pentinite]
    #26464477 - 02/01/20 11:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sir Pentinite said:
Using a 400W load for 36hr a month is going to cost you maybe a couple bucks. Downsize your Starbucks a few times and you've paid for it. Smoke a half pack less that month, recycle some cans & bottles, I dunno.

Running it nonstop is going to cost quite a bit more. 400W for 24hr for 30 days = 288kWh. If you live where it's a straight $0.10/kWh all the time, then yeah it's only $29. If you live where there are bullshit baselines and tiers and peak/off-peak billing, then it can/will add a whole lot more.

Quote:

spiritlands said:
If you can get around -35 psi with that pump then you're set.




That's not possible when sea level atmospheric pressure is only ~14.7psi.



Ya, that's why it's called vacuum. 14ish psi is one atmosphere of pressure. 1 torr. 1mm Mercury. 35 psi is roughly 2 atmospheres of vacuum, which is more than enough for all lab purposes. That pump prob makes a lot more than that but it's not necessary, but it's nice to have. I'm not googling this stuff, this is what I do. I know this from lots of questionable projects. Fruits of a misspent youth.

And vacuum is going to be more costly than running a dehydrator. But to those with the resources and time it is nice to have.


--------------------


Germinating old spores progress page
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:spiralflip::spiralflip:




Edited by spiritlands (02/02/20 02:36 AM)


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InvisibleHighDesert
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26492481 - 02/18/20 08:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Well one last experiment was performed. This time the mason jar was placed in a hot water bath at about 140f (crock pot on low setting). A freshly picked 325g flush was divided in 1/2. 166g went into a 0.5 gallon mason jar and the rest went into the dehydrator set at around 125f. Both were run for 12 hours. The vacuum pump and crock pot draw a combined wattage of 260w. The vacuum jar contents still weren't cracker dry and the dehydrator were at the 12 hour mark. Eventually, a potency test will be done. At this time, my opinion is still that vacuum desiccation is not a better option than dehydrators.


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InvisibleLegume
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: HighDesert]
    #26511348 - 03/01/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

@Highdesert - what vacuum did you pull with that Robinair hvac pump? Did you stop (say worried about Mason Jar?) or let it pull a hard vacuum?

The Robinair and similar HVAC pumps are designed to pull a hard vacuum as HVAC needs that for absolutely minimal contamination in the lines. My only complaint about them is that they will mist oil vapor so should be run outside and perhaps with a rag over the handle.

A sturdy metal mixing bowl makes a great vacuum chamber bottom. I've used mine for years without issue for other vacuum purifying needs.

You can also use 3/4" high quality plywood or a solid board. Thoroughly polyurethane it. It will still be a bit "leaky" but the Robinair (not a vacuum bagger) can easily keep up with some leakage.

So mixing bowl, plywood square (or thick plexi), a few fittings, and one is set.

Top it with a 12x12 chunk of 1/2" Plexi (or thicker) and you can carefully drill and tap *one* hole dead center. Hang all your fittings and gauges off of that one tap off. Make a gasket with RTV or Home Center rubber sheeting, such as for shower liners and such works great. I'm sure you can be creative.

My concern is will a hard vacuum remove desirable volatile compounds? For some of what I degas (composites) the hard vacuum pulls out some volatile compounds (curatives) I need.


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InvisibleHolybullshit
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Re: Vacuum Desiccation (drying) [Re: jbgtaa]
    #27884927 - 08/01/22 04:58 AM (1 year, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I’ve had a space heater running in my apartment since the beginning of November and haven’t seen an increase in My electric bill.




You don't have air conditioning?

Even if you don't have any type of AC, energy rates may change seasonally where you are...with rates in the summer typically the highest due to AC usage.

Because at 1,500 watts(which it likely only uses on it's highest setting), if it runs say 8 hours a day that's 12kwh.

At 0.20/kwh that would be almost $2.50 a day.

So depending on the energy market that could be anywhere from $50-80 a month, more if you run it longer.

Running a 400w dehumidifer 24 hours a day would be ~10 kwh.

------

Back on topic, I wonder if freezing the mushrooms first would make a vacuum oven work better. Or if the OPs vacuum chamber had enough air exchange to work properly. The inside of the chamber could have been reaching 100% RH rather quickly...removing a few grams of moisture into the air in the chamber in the first hour(or less) but then essentially becoming saturated.

Purpose built vacuum ovens may have electronically controlled air exchange, periodically opening an air inlet valve for new(dry) air, or different running modes and calibration settings to obtain the necessary conditions for your application even if operating in continuous mode...


Edited by Holybullshit (08/01/22 05:48 AM)


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