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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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The idea that the present moment is all that matters
    #26460521 - 01/30/20 04:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The whole “all that matters is now” ethos is not all it's cracked up to be. Having a memory and awareness of the past, plus some idea of what the future holds, or what you feel it should hold, are completely necessary. This is often overlooked with the now popular insistence upon the exclusive importance of the present moment. I get it, and it’s important to realize that we get caught up in our conceptualizations of time, which takes us out of having present awareness. I understand that the only moment we ever experience is the present moment. But I think something more balanced would be smarter. It’s not an either-or thing. An emphasis can be an overemphasis.

We need a focus on the present moment, along with the acknowledgment that we cannot, as human beings, possibly do without past and future – nor should we want to. It is also important to note that everything you experience is a flow that has a bandwidth, and has an origin that is, for you, in the past. So if time must come in, the present moment cannot be the whole story, anyway.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26460662 - 01/30/20 05:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think the obvious benefit regards not wishing things had happened differently and not counting eggs before they are hatched. But yea, it's more of a koan than a statement of fact... although in a way it is a fact. That's what makes it a koan.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26460672 - 01/30/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I somewhat agree. I prefer the term presence and thinking of it more as a verb than a noun. 

One can be present with anything :thumbup:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Kickle]
    #26460857 - 01/30/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I take refuge in the moment when I get lost, which is all the time.
the moment is not a solution to problems, but it is a handy reference to getting back on track in case you lose you way, which is inevitable.

I hope you don't think I am talking in circles but I am - actually I hope you do think I am. (what I actually am is working out a kink in my hiney from sitting.)


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OfflineOnlyHuman
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Rahz]
    #26460904 - 01/30/20 07:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I really don't think that anyone is arguing that one should not prepare for the future while valuing and learning from the past. Reflection is necessary, and so is preparation, but it is important not to continue to reflect once one has drained their wit, or else they will be living in the past, in the same way, it is important not to obsess over what the future will bring, but to plan for it to the best of one's ability. When you are not reflecting or preparing, you should be living in the moment.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: OnlyHuman]
    #26461028 - 01/30/20 08:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OnlyHuman said:
I really don't think that anyone is arguing that one should not prepare for the future while valuing and learning from the past. Reflection is necessary, and so is preparation, but it is important not to continue to reflect once one has drained their wit, or else they will be living in the past, in the same way, it is important not to obsess over what the future will bring, but to plan for it to the best of one's ability. When you are not reflecting or preparing, you should be living in the moment.




In practice some people more than others may take less heed of the future and have less need of learning from the past. Minimizing the energy spent reflecting and preparing could be a reasonable proposition, but I agree and there could be too little just as too much of a thing. Going 100 percent no past no future is extreme, though it might also be called nirvana. An idea for contemplation rather than an immediate goal among the living.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26461368 - 01/31/20 01:45 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

In the present moment I responded to your thread but became of my own questions.

I don't really understand what people say, in general, when they suggest to 'be in the moment', like for me it's hard to distinguish day dreaming from 'being in the moment' and the line isn't very clear for me.

Sometimes I enjoy day dreaming about something that just happened or something I'd like to do etc.

But for me that is being in the moment as much as it is when I'm focused outside on doing a task like the mowing. Even then I'm listening to music and almost 'instinctively' doing it.

Well maybe I'd just like to ask what the difference is between instinct and being in the present moment?
Because it isn't necessarily clear to me at the moment, but could be soon.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: sudly]
    #26461627 - 01/31/20 06:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

@ sudly,
in the moment while day dreaming, you will be aware that you are day dreaming, and what your body position is, and what sensations are happening, and your breath, and you may certainly continue day dreaming.

the ongoing conscious continuum is composed of your active mental contents.

being in the moment means that your mental contents include awareness of your breath, body position, and sensations.

when you can chew gum and walk in the moment you are good to go!
it's about including awareness among mental contents that are waves in a larger ocean of which there is no control, obviously.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26461639 - 01/31/20 06:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
in the moment while day dreaming



Walking completely peacefully anywhere at anytime on planet Earth. :heart:

We be jammin', mon!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26461905 - 01/31/20 10:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The whole “all that matters is now” ethos is not all it's cracked up to be. Having a memory and awareness of the past, plus some idea of what the future holds, or what you feel it should hold, are completely necessary. This is often overlooked with the now popular insistence upon the exclusive importance of the present moment. I get it, and it’s important to realize that we get caught up in our conceptualizations of time, which takes us out of having present awareness. I understand that the only moment we ever experience is the present moment. But I think something more balanced would be smarter. It’s not an either-or thing. An emphasis can be an overemphasis.

We need a focus on the present moment, along with the acknowledgment that we cannot, as human beings, possibly do without past and future – nor should we want to. It is also important to note that everything you experience is a flow that has a bandwidth, and has an origin that is, for you, in the past. So if time must come in, the present moment cannot be the whole story, anyway.




.    Many good replies

.  A few more thoughts

.    What is always in the present moment is the body.
If the heart or breathing stops, in the present, there will be no more you,
to fantasize about the future or the past where no one has ever gone.

.  It is only the mind that takes big trips into the past and future.
Indeed this is partly what makes humans different from other animals,
- for better or worse.

.  Even in terms of the mind, meditation is grounded in present awareness.
And in terms of the self, emotions, being mediated by the body, also occur in the present.
So therapy that works with processing feelings, is also grounded in the present, even if their cause was related to 'the past'.

.    Most likely the human love of sports, is based on their taking us largely 'out of our minds' and bringing us back into the present, the only "place" we ever feel truly alive.

.    As regards, sex like sports, it is a present moment deal. If fantasizing about future, or remembering past, sex or sports, were as good as the real thing, no one would bother with the real thing, as they all involve a lot of bother when occurring in the physical world.

.    Loosely speaking, one might say, nature in her wisdom, caused us to forget, our dreams upon awakening, and have less vivid imaginations while awake, lest we become dream junkies, and shortly thereafter go extinct.
.    Simply put survival involves constant work in the present. Of course learning from the past, and imagining future consequences, hopefully guides, these present time efforts.
.    In brief as most of us misuse this imaginative capacity, with the result of enormous self caused suffering, spiritual teachers have emphasized: 'being here now'.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26461980 - 01/31/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

bravo on quitting all those substances

that was one of the biggest things in my year last year

like you quit poppy seeds etc.

that is one of the most interesting things I have heard

don't do more than a bit of each substance you do


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26462048 - 01/31/20 12:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

?????????????????

nobody in the entire thread said anything about "quitting all those substances".

You seem confused....


Edited by laughingdog (01/31/20 12:31 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26462279 - 01/31/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

These are all good replies, with which I agree. Looking at it from another perspective, what is the nature of the present moment more fundamentally? It is often said that time is an illusion, and has no fundamental objective basis, but is rather a derivative consequence of deeper forces. This I agree with. So what that means is that the present moment is literally the only moment. But I don't think this is the whole story.

It was mentioned that the body is always in the present, and our attention is always in the present. But when you consider it carefully, time must be brought in in both cases. The heart beats, the brain processes, the blood flows, the organs function -- all in a temporal dimension. They are not precisely at the nexus of past and future, but have some extension in time. Indeed, as I pointed out originally, the mind exists as part of a flow with a certain bandwidth in the brain-mind-awareness loop, so everything we experience actually took place a few milliseconds in the past.

Also, physicists feel strongly that time, whatever its illusory properties, exists as a dimension, through which it would in principle be possible to travel with sufficient technology, throughout the whole timeline in our universe.

So it seems to me that, even though time may not be a fundamental property of the deeper existence, we nevertheless must be subject to it even at the deepest levels of our being -- or if not, certainly in our bodies and minds. And if that is the case, what is the meaning, in the most literal sense, of the present moment that is timeless? Perhaps we can attain it with advanced meditation, psychedelics, what have you, but inevitably we return to time. So in the end, I suppose, we must take both time and the timeless into consideration together, at least as humans.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26462534 - 01/31/20 05:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Yes it is paradoxical, which the mind may find frustrating.
On the one hand we have impermanence, and aging, yet the feeling of being alive always happens in the present.
It is in the flow state, that we escape.
supposedly Bob Dylan said: "the purpose of art is to stop time"
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/552645
I would clarify that: The purpose of creating art is to stop time.
Hence the folks that alway ask: "How long did it take you to paint (or whatever) that?" totally miss the true secret, of real creators. (Along with those who always want to be told what things mean with words. Or what the meaning or purpose of life is.)


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26462837 - 01/31/20 09:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I tend to agree the present moment is all that exists and that the past and future are story narratives rooted in imagination and fantasy. I used to spend a lot of time planning for the future. Growing mushrooms was a great distraction for many years, as I treated my grow projects as if I was working on a PhD and always wanted "something to think about" - which was always future plans for new experiments. I would use planning for the future any time I wanted to occupy (distract?) myself from what was happening. Weather it was a 2 hour road trip home or sitting in a daylong seminar for work, I would expend significant effort planning. I have many notebooks of plans. Don't get me wrong - planning is not bad. But even oxygen has it's lethal levels. 

I notice when I'm in stressing mode I often dig up old resentments. If I hop on that train of thought I can quickly find my heart pounding and hands sweating as I seethe with anger. 99.99% of my chronic anger has always been about the past and not about anything occurring in the present. 

I enjoy life much more when I place a priority on being aware of what is actually happening in front of me.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26463224 - 02/01/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think the present is all that matters ultimately. The trouble comes in the fact that we are born and live within abstractions, and therefore there is a usefulness (neccessity?) for abstractions in dealing with the space in which our cognitive lives take shape, thereby bringing us back to moment to moment living. Platitudes about living in the present are not enough alone, and may even be damaging.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Grapefruit]
    #26463543 - 02/01/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

On another note we tend to believe, we can just be here now when ever we choose. However after reading this description on the experience of advanced meditators, I doubt this is the case. It seems it takes great effort to develop this degree of concentration and present moment awareness. And of course such awareness can be trained only by a continual effort in the eternal present - hence the emphasis on staying in the now by many teachers:

“You will be unable to keep up with objects by trying to label or name each of them when they arise so quickly. A meditator should simply be aware of them from moment to moment, without naming them, so that he or she can follow them. If a meditator wants to name them, he or she does not try to name them all. When one object is labeled, he or she may become aware of four, five, or ten other objects. This isn’t a problem. You may tire if you attempt to name all the objects that occur. What matters most is being precisely and accurately aware of each object. In this case, note any objects that come in through the six sense doors, without following the normal procedure. Of course if noting in this way does not go smoothly, you can always revert to the normal procedure.
Mental and physical phenomena arise and pass away much faster than the twinkling of an eye or a flash of lightning. But when your insight knowledge matures, you will be able to clearly perceive each fleeting phenomena without missing a single one by simply being aware of them from moment to moment. Your mindfulness will become so strong it will seem as if it rushes into the object that arises; it will seem as if objects fall into the noting mind. The knowing mind, too, will clearly and distinctly know each and every single object that arises. You might even think: “Phenomena are arising and passing away instantaneously; their appearance and disap- pearance are very fast, like a machine running at full speed. Yet I am able to perceive them all from moment to moment. I don’t think I am missing anything or that there’s anything else that I should be aware of.”
this is the personally experienced insight knowledge that we cannot even dream of. “

from "The Manual of insight
by Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw
1904 – 1982:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26463611 - 02/01/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

when practicing relaxed awareness, by Perceiving objects, and by labelling even more so, one triggers memory recollections, (AKA thoughts,) so yes the mind rushes towards what is in the moment rather than filling with related thoughts.

when not doing this practice one can be very much in the moment and aware also of one's reactions and ideas, and one can regularly return to the moment during conversations and other activities. This improves the quality of those activities.

It helps to have a good sense of humor because a lot of funny stuff goes on.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26463657 - 02/01/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:smile:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26464482 - 02/01/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Where the hell else are you "temporally" anchored BUT present moment awareness?

Where else are decisions made that impact the completely illusory "future", which is just another "present"; both of which are complete abstractions dependent upon a conscious, self-aware observer deciding those labels mean anything in the first place?

What is outside your consciousness, and how can you prove it's there...minus your consciousness?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26464840 - 02/02/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

So you're saying time doesn't exist? I have already acknowledged multiple times that the present moment is fundamentally important. But what is the objective extended dimension in which things happen? If the present is all that exists, why must we die?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26465012 - 02/02/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

it is a leap into contradiction.
and a defiance of gravity and light.

time certainly exists, it is the self that is an illusion we creatures create out of our mental contents.
and those mental contents are often more of past impressions than of what is happening.

so living in the moment is also part of realizing no-self


Edited by redgreenvines (02/02/20 10:14 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26465062 - 02/02/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Well I agree. The way I see it, it’s not that time is objectively an abstraction that doesn’t really exist, but that it is a relative dimension that can be transcended. It exists well enough.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26466084 - 02/02/20 10:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

.    Yes there is a paradox. Intellectually we know that the present moment is infinitesimally tiny, and yet we cannot escape it, and within it we age, and everything changes.

.    Another paradox is that time is linear, which is necessary for cause and effect to operate, yet time as we experience it is not linear. For instance movies are filled with flashbacks, as are stories, and much of how we interpret reality is based on past associations. The richness of the fabric of our lives is woven from stands of our ancestors lives, and our own childhood experiences, lessons we have learned and so on.
.    We are constantly, in our inner lives creating unique realities, and so is everyone else. So human life experience is a totally subjective reality, which we sometimes try and force fit into what we assume is objective truth.

.  That the physicists say time slows as we approach light speed, or that gravity may effect it, has nothing to do with our personal experiencing of time. Such objective truth simply isn't relevant as regards the personal reality of our experiencing.
.  But that drugs and the flow state, may change our perception of time, again suggests how subjective our realities maybe in spite of clocks and calendars.

.    It would seem that as individual selves we attach to our stories and the richness of our inner lives, as they relate to our desires, and future goals. So the emphasis teachers of meditation, mindfulness, & enlightenment place on being here now may at first seem strange, but if one takes the time to listen to them carefully I think their reasoning is very powerful.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26466241 - 02/03/20 04:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

the moment is not a measure of time, but a slice of experiencing, one that can become 'fixed' into memory.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26466546 - 02/03/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Well I agree. The way I see it, it’s not that time is objectively an abstraction that doesn’t really exist, but that it is a relative dimension that can be transcended. It exists well enough.




I tend to think of time as awareness of movement (and thus change). In this sense movement exists (or rather, happens) but perceptions of the past and future are abstractions which take place in the present. Are we moving away from the past and into the future, or are we just observing changes in the eternal present? Or is there a third option?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26466815 - 02/03/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
.    Yes there is a paradox. Intellectually we know that the present moment is infinitesimally tiny, and yet we cannot escape it, and within it we age, and everything changes.

.    Another paradox is that time is linear, which is necessary for cause and effect to operate, yet time as we experience it is not linear. For instance movies are filled with flashbacks, as are stories, and much of how we interpret reality is based on past associations. The richness of the fabric of our lives is woven from stands of our ancestors lives, and our own childhood experiences, lessons we have learned and so on.
.    We are constantly, in our inner lives creating unique realities, and so is everyone else. So human life experience is a totally subjective reality, which we sometimes try and force fit into what we assume is objective truth.

.  That the physicists say time slows as we approach light speed, or that gravity may effect it, has nothing to do with our personal experiencing of time. Such objective truth simply isn't relevant as regards the personal reality of our experiencing.
.  But that drugs and the flow state, may change our perception of time, again suggests how subjective our realities maybe in spite of clocks and calendars.

.    It would seem that as individual selves we attach to our stories and the richness of our inner lives, as they relate to our desires, and future goals. So the emphasis teachers of meditation, mindfulness, & enlightenment place on being here now may at first seem strange, but if one takes the time to listen to them carefully I think their reasoning is very powerful.





I agree that the temporal processes of physics, like time dilation, are usually separate from our subjective experience of time. But I think they come together at a certain point. Any psychonaut can tell you that as the experience really gets going, time slows relative to clocks in the room. So, this makes sense vis a vis relativity because the mind is really a consequence of the electric field of the brain, and something is going on here where time dilation comes in, although just how nobody knows. But this cannot be a coincidence -- as the electromagnetic field of the nervous system increases in energy, we get relativistic effects. I imagine there must be things about this in the literature of samadhi and satori states in Buddhism, but I do not know. Certainly, it is a well-known effect of the psychedelic experience. So at a certain intensity of brain function, relativistic effects do come in.

So how we explain this is unknown. But it is important to distinguish subjective vs. objective time processes. Subjectively, time can be seen as a consequence of the perception of the brain's processing of memory, and there is plenty of room here for the eternally present moment to come in. But this does not help us to know why time is slower in strong gravitational fields. I imagine at some point we shall learn where the subjective and objective sides of time come together, but as I have said, there is already evidence that they do in peak states. Ultimately, the subjective and objective components of time must be one.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Rahz]
    #26466819 - 02/03/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I tend to think of time as awareness of movement (and thus change). In this sense movement exists (or rather, happens) but perceptions of the past and future are abstractions which take place in the present. Are we moving away from the past and into the future, or are we just observing changes in the eternal present? Or is there a third option?





Yes, I think movement itself is fundamental; perhaps it is the most fundamental thing in nature. I agree that the present is the only place we ever really are, and that time is ultimately derivative. The present is the cross-section between past and future, and we are indeed in a present in which, subjectively, past and future are always abstractions.

But of course, as pointed out in the above post, there is also an undeniable objective component to time, i.e. that treated in physics, which prevents the subjective component from being the whole story. In a book I once read by a physicist named Richard Muller, he gives an interesting way of conceptualizing objective time: Just as space is expanding from a cataclysmic event in the past, so must time be expanding outward as well. Perhaps our present is the cross-section between past and future of an expanding dimension or substance of time, and while we are always in the present, past and future have some sort of objective reality. It's an interesting way to think about it, at the very least.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26467006 - 02/03/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Certainly, it is a well-known effect of the psychedelic experience. So at a certain intensity of brain function, relativistic effects do come in.




.    I wouldn't take this idea too seriously. All the yogis, buddhas & gurus, die within a normal  human life span no matter how much time they spend in Samadhi. And the same is true of all the psychedelic explorers and shamen.

.  And as we know the Buddhist teaching is not about the liberation of the self -
but the liberation from the self, and even more so not about mistaking long life, as a worthwhile goal.

.  Very specifically the Buddhist teaching is not about belief. And that includes beliefs about time & the origin of the universe. The 8 fold path is meant to be a methodology a person can employ experimentally to discover for themselves if it reduces suffering. If the individual discovers it has such effects, then they will tend to explore the path further naturally, without the necessity of dogma, defending a belief system, or ideology or cosmology.
.  It is of course claimed that along with reduced suffering/stress/anxiety, there will arise profound insights regarding reality - but it is also emphasized that knowing what these insights are before hand, is no substitute for experiencing them personally & deeply within.

The biography of Nikola Tesla, is a tragedy. One of the smartest people ever, who  benefited all of civilization, ended up lonely, poor, mentally disturbed, & unrecognized.
Leonardo Da Vinci also one of the smartest people ever, also died depressed.

.  So although Buddha's saying all he taught was "the end of suffering"; sounds pretty trivial to those who aren't aware of the inner working of the constant conditioning process we are all caught in; when we see the uselessness of intelligence & answers (in the life of Tesla for example, among many others) by themselves to bring any lasting peace, it suggests Buddha's aim was perhaps more relevant than it is often given credit for.

.  And all such methods (of mindfulness & meditation) do involve abandoning a lot of what lay people call entertainment, but adepts call distractions. Interestingly professions such as the martial arts and acrobatics (among some others) also recognize the miracle of an awareness that has been trained to stay present.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26467530 - 02/03/20 08:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I was with you until the last little paragraph.

I don't see a path of abandoning at all. I see learning to observe mental formations, including entertainments, I am certain a person can become aware of where they are at (being present), and not need to change anything. just get more into doing it in a way that keeps observing, and snapping back gently when distracted.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26468347 - 02/04/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Probably true (of having distractions) for many, but not for others.
In the "not true category" I would put boxers, martial "artists", and flying trapeze acrobats.

Not true for me (having no distractions), and I do understand that in noting practice they are noted, but not pursued.
But of course their are humans that go into states where they are undistracted.
I think that's partly what 'samadhi' refers to, and of course a distracted boxer etc. is toast.

I would guess that even animals go into such states naturally. If one observes a cat hunting, of which the first stage is stalking, silently, with total focus, one sees this sort of thing. Of course they have a focus that is split between the prey, and a broader awareness of the rest of the environment, but animals that stalk are not distracted by thoughts, fantasies, residual feelings, or other inner noise, IMO.


Edited by laughingdog (02/04/20 11:56 AM)


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26468536 - 02/04/20 01:32 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All moments matter. The idea is to vary focus so as to see and experience different things. I can 'go back' in my mind and be 'present' in a past experience and extract just as much beauty as being intensely focused in a present.
Not sure why much verbiage is needed on this concept.

You won't achieve the fidelity that is referenced by the concept without a lot of effort/refinement of introspection.
Nothing in life is free, if you want to have a powerful perception, you have to frequently exercise and develop it through hard work.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26468572 - 02/04/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

samadhi, which is a side effect of concentration, is in a different direction
than hunting prey or martial arts; i.e. inner versus outer oriented.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26468936 - 02/04/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Time is the scariest boogieman the human mind can believe in/perceive!

...its a great fairytale that keeps you from smelling the roses....its what makes the waking dream, a waking nightmare.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469071 - 02/04/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Time is the scariest boogieman the human mind can believe in/perceive!

...its a great fairytale that keeps you from smelling the roses....its what makes the waking dream, a waking nightmare.



Time is just a dimensional construct. It's not a boogie man.
It's not a belief. It simply is and exists like gravity.
It's not a fiarytale. It is quite clearly fact.
There is no waking dream or nightmare. Reality is quite real. If you die today, your room and everything in it and the world will still exists.

If a person fails to grasp/understand time and how to manipulate it and utilize it to its full value, it's their own fault and problem. Losing capture of time btw can lead to a real world mental nightmare. It's not a boogieman and quite frankly its the only thing that allows you to make sense of and grasp reality. If it is suspended for any prolonged amount of time you can quite frankly lose your natural mind.

People learn a way to manipulate their perception of time and they behave like kids pertaining to the subject and experience. The present is no more grand than the past or future. I can personally project into any state I wish along this dimensional framing and 'be in it'. If you can't or you just figured out how to 'be in the moment' and are seemingly addicted to the idea and think it is the holy grail of 'perception' then quite frankly you got lost in the sauce... because in that you fail to grasp the power of the past and the future for that matter.

Float and be as you are, were, and can be constructively, perceptively, and progressively to higher roads.
The end.

There is no fairy-tale/dream/nightmare. You are here and there is a purpose. You will have issue until you find it.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469104 - 02/04/20 07:26 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Time is just a tool to utilize in this plane of existence...
Does it exist outside of this plane...only time will tell;)


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469159 - 02/04/20 07:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Time is just a tool to utilize in this plane of existence...




And this plane is quite frankly where all human beings are... Even those that think they've specially transcended it only to be reminded every day they haven't. There are no Gods among men. Physical is physical and you're physical and here along with everyone else and bound by time.

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
Does it exist outside of this plane...only time will tell;)




Planes are planes.. dimensions are dimensions. x,y,z.. t (time) .. a,b,c .. 1,2,3 out to n. Until a new one is well defined by science, what is simply is.

Time? You got 100 years. Nothing amazing happens in such small time scales.
You're going to die long before there is any fundamental science on the concept of time... You'd live and die several times over

You're not God. You can't physically transcend planes. However, your powerful mind can allow you to glimpse and tap into it... Something far different from manifesting it in this reality and/or manipulating it outside of your head and or changing something beyond a plane you have access to.

It's funny to play with the idea you can and live in that 'reality'.. but this is fairytale.. One only you perceive. A grand one and a fantasy land once you master it but that doesn't change a single thing in reality unless you can manifest it.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469199 - 02/04/20 08:29 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I like to believe I am made of energy and I'm under the impression that energy is constant.  Once my physical body finally fails and falls apart, my energy will still exist in some way, shape or form...and since energy is constant that would make my essence everlasting and thus making Time pointless, atleast when it comes to the bigger picture.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: CrystalizedFungi]
    #26469381 - 02/04/20 10:06 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CrystalizedFungi said:
I like to believe I am made of energy and I'm under the impression that energy is constant.  Once my physical body finally fails and falls apart, my energy will still exist in some way, shape or form...and since energy is constant that would make my essence everlasting and thus making Time pointless, atleast when it comes to the bigger picture.



Beliefs are powerful things. Everyone has them and they don't change reality.
The after-life even doesn't change reality. You die and your energy can do whatever it wants and everyone else and everything is still here doing its thing. On a personal level, believe as you wish. You are entitled to it. While you exist in the present reality along with everything else, your beliefs impact nothing beyond what you can physically manifest from them. Time is real. Everything in the physical is bound to it. The after-life and deeper natures of reality are unknown. Scientists will come to prove/establish what it is or isn't. For now, people have theories/beliefs.. Valid concepts but something that isn't tangible or workable and isn't proven. I have a personal belief in reincarnation and thus a similar concept as you. However, time is quite real and a tangible concept for me that is important and essential. There's no reason for me to run off muddying up reality without any perceivable benefit. I can project and be in different times of my my experience/universe but this is largely due to a lot of things in my brain which is not fully understood.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469523 - 02/05/20 12:36 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Does the present moment matter if you're deluded? Ignorance is bliss, feel this energy man.. yo.

Energy doesn't mean jack alone, but I'm sensing the energy in this room is to step back so I'm off.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: sudly]
    #26469537 - 02/05/20 12:56 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

When you come to grasp a more scientific understanding of reality and its complexities and relationships you see the grand mystery and magic in it. This leads you aware from muddying this with lessor concepts that are flawed.

A person says time travel and I know this to be physically impossible and absurd but I also realize something far mor fascinating and grand : Quantum physics.

A person says 'be present in the moment' and I know exactly how this works biologically and neurologically and its much more magical in this context to me at least. Something anyone can google for themselves and grasp and bask in but seemingly don't as older outdated beliefs are more accessible and fun? I have no clue. However, some things are clearly absurd as are some descriptors. I see no grand value in basking in ignorance especially when information is so easy to access including layman terms videos that take less than 5min to watch on youtube.

This however is the power of belief in the fun playground people construct and play around in their own heads.
You are entitled to that but anyone with sense will cut you short when you start stating that this is the physical reality everyone else lives in.. No, that sometimes is just the cool place you like to bask in all resident to your head.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26470362 - 02/05/20 01:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

When you come to grasp a more scientific understanding of reality and its complexities and relationships you see;




I'm with you here, but beyond that, my version of this tale would be that, "When you come to grasp a more scientific understanding of reality and its complexities and relationships you see a whole dynamic system of interrelated events."

Quote:

I have a personal belief in reincarnation and thus a similar concept as you.




I'm one of the few that tend to defer from this concept.

Quote:

You die and your energy can do whatever it wants and everyone else and everything is still here doing its thing




If you look at the above from a viewpoint of a more scientific understanding, then wouldn't it make sense to be able to describe in detail what form that energy is exchanging in to. With everyone else and everything still here doing its thing


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: sudly]
    #26470398 - 02/05/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

I'm with you here, but beyond that, my version of this tale would be that, "When you come to grasp a more scientific understanding of reality and its complexities and relationships you see a whole dynamic system of interrelated events."




And I would agree with this extended framing that you propose...Correct.

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

I have a personal belief in reincarnation and thus a similar concept as you.



I'm one of the few that tend to defer from this concept.




This is fine. It's one of many theories I maintain about the potential 'after-life' and maintain it as a beyond science framing/new scientific inquiry...I will readily admit it is a theory that is very unsubstantiated and thus am not married to it. It just provides me with workable ideas. The key I think is to admit this clearly and not stay loosely connected to the idea.


Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

You die and your energy can do whatever it wants and everyone else and everything is still here doing its thing



If you look at the above from a viewpoint of a more scientific understanding, then wouldn't it make sense to be able to describe in detail what form that energy is exchanging in to. With everyone else and everything still here doing its thing







Sure, just look at a decomposition video and consider the compound->atomic and subatomic nature of things... How much 'memory' do these building blocks maintain of their interactions...

Birth and your physical body relates to sperm (code) meeting an egg (incubator). Matter and energy are structured progressively and boom out you come. You grow physically/etc by consuming matter/energy and experience/etc and this is life. You die and your matter/energy decompose and return back to the physical environment and from that there is now substance for something else to come about.

Loosely throw in :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
here.

Well, the only question then becomes how much structure is preserved of you and returned to the environment across your death/decomposition. This is where wild unsupported theories like reincarnation can be asserted loosely and where I entertain the thought. As to the very detailed scientific explanation on how this works 'behind the scenes', I am not at liberty to discuss this. However, I do a bit of active work probing it and a well established framework.

Also, alas.. not much beyond that is impacted by your dead body decomposing into the environment in an open field.
My computer is still a computer. I am still me. My chair is still here, the sky is still blue, etc.

So yes, in plain scientific terms this can be framed as I have done.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26470544 - 02/05/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Where in that is room for reincarnation?

Workable ideas? But nothing solid..

Invertebrate communities and plant nutrients are parts of decomposition.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: sudly]
    #26470615 - 02/05/20 04:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Where in that is room for reincarnation?

Workable ideas? But nothing solid..

Invertebrate communities and plant nutrients are parts of decomposition.




Sexual reproduction directly passes on substantial code and structure.
Physical decomposition does this in a more degraded and questionable form.
And then there is a whole body of theory/ideation/unscience that I entertain
For some of my work which I will not get into.

So, for all intents purposes : Workable ideas for actual work...
It's just a concept and loosely established theory.. Nothing more and thus there isn't much to discuss beyond what I have disclosed.

Philosophy and soft sciences after-all get you nowhere beyond ideation which is why I quickly abandon it beyond forming ideas.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26473085 - 02/07/20 12:13 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Your answer to reincarnation is babies? Because if so fair enough, that's sounds like an honest attempt.

Decomposition has more to do with micro-nutrients, plant growth, invertebrate and bacterial communities.

You like the idea of unscience and you can't explain why?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: sudly]
    #26473329 - 02/07/20 06:28 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

reincarnation is a story I am less inclined to resist than a superbeing/god; however, the idea of incarnating the godstuff/mindstuff that we are, and that we  return to just mindstuff/godstuff is appealing, but not on the level of thought or knowlede, nor as consciousness itself, but of some underlying dimensional thing that is unrelated to experience but somehowo related to light.

i know that's pretty vague, but I have no evidence of anything that fits together beyond that.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26473721 - 02/07/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think they are equally ridiculous. The best I can come up with is that the potential for life, consciousness and joy are eternal, an inherent quality of the universe and existence. How and why I do not know. The only statement that approaches reasonable is that it just is.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Rahz]
    #26474049 - 02/07/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

The big source, for belief in  reincarnation, that millions ascribe to, is Hinduism.
Historically this helped justify the horrible India caste system, which Buddha did not subscribe to, and Gandhi tried to dismantle.
The Tibetan Buddhists are into it in a big way.
Modern secular Buddhists,  attempt to ignore it and secularize the practice.
Thus there are different versions of the teaching of: dependent origination.
Those who 'are into it' help 'past regression hypnotists' make a living.


Edited by laughingdog (02/07/20 03:06 PM)


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26474081 - 02/07/20 02:49 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Reincarnation - the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Or - Caterpillar becomes a butterfly... as long as it's not eaten by a bird first. Plenty more where that one came from though.


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rahz

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26474310 - 02/07/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Reincarnation - the more things change, the more they stay the same. ...Plenty more where that one came from though....




Indeed 'Plenty more': "The Myth of Sisyphus " by Albert Camus  (Author) and all that...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

" ... condemned to repeat forever the same meaningless task of pushing a boulder up a mountain, only to see it roll down again. ..."

Of course the Hindu concept of reincarnation, includes the idea, that things can always get worse, as its supposed to be a moral teaching, and ethically motivating.


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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: laughingdog]
    #26475446 - 02/08/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

There are 2 well known science studies, of actual people, with opposite disorders, that may perhaps show the value of taking the middle path as regards this issue. Full articles and more are at the links:

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-mystery-of-s-the-man-with-an-impossible-memory

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+man+who+couldn%27t+forget&t=h_&ia=web ;

The Mystery of S., the Man with an Impossible Memory
By Reed Johnson
August 12, 2017

"The neuropsychologist Alexander Luria’s case study of Solomon Shereshevsky helped spark a myth about a man who could not forget. But the truth is more complicated.Illustration by Leigh Guldig" ...

-------- and -------

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=the+man+who+couldn%27t+remember&t=h_&ia=web

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/corkin-hm-memory/

"The Man Who Couldn't Remember
For five decades, neuroscientist Suzanne Corkin worked with Henry Gustav Molaison, a man known in the annals of science simply as H.M. She spent countless hours talking with him and testing him. She knew intimate details about his life, yet remarkably he could never remember who she was." ....


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The idea that the present moment is all that matters [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26494043 - 02/19/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Purely perspective, we are more evolved then most will acknowledge. I agree that the past and future is apart of what we are, but it is possible to disconnect from both entirely; thus becoming something other then our self's...in a sense..in theory..that is. The saying thinking outside the box..most do not understand what this truly means. It has to do with more then just thinking..


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