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Offlinesaved7
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You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law * 1
    #26454964 - 01/27/20 11:03 AM (4 years, 2 days ago)

CS Lewis - Right & Wrong - A Clue to the Meaning of the Universe


This is a short video, basically summed up like this:

Generally, everyone in the world understands there is some kind of Moral Law.  Even if there are many variations on right & wrong behavior throughout the world's societies, people everywhere behave as if that Moral Law is real.  For example, when you have a feeling that the law has been transgressed, (e.g. You didn't keep a promise you made to someone) you instinctively begin developing a list of excuses for yourself as to why you fell short of it. 

Even if we'd like to intellectually deny the truth of a real Moral Law, we live and breathe as if the Law is weighing down upon us continually as a witness against us.

You can find people who may act entirely immoral in all things, but this does not negate the truth of the Moral Law anymore than finding a color-blind person may negate the truth that the vast, vast majority of people see and respond to color.


So, we can either desperately deny this truth of Right and Wrong written in all of our hearts and staring us in the face. 

Or accept it and its implications.

And those implications are why many of us want to deny the existence of the Law, and of Right & Wrong.  It is a blinding light that draws us out of our preferred darkness.

We instictively understand that as soon as we accept the truth of the Moral Law written in our hearts, we can nolonger use the flimsy excuse that God didn't give us any evidence for his existence.  We will be drawn out into the light of truth, and there is no going back.

So, will you stay hidden in the darkness, or will you venture into the light?


from Romans Ch.1+2:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,g in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."





....He is waiting for you....


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26455106 - 01/27/20 12:47 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

It's indeed amazing to relish in our [usually] shared moral objectives and I agree that there is a inherent thing you are referring to as The Moral Law. However, I fail to see the connection to a specific god. The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 2
    #26455907 - 01/27/20 07:58 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.




Have to agree there, in fact I think the whole idea of God being wrathful/vengeful is a bit primitive.  Seems more like humans projecting their own (less than desirable) qualities on something we don't understand. 

I think something with the ability to create us would not choose to create us in such a way as to deem us defective and then punish us.  Just seems a bit ridiculous to me :shrug:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Offlineqman
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26456092 - 01/27/20 10:21 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Assuming that everyone has some type of understanding of 'truth' when they really might not buy into that theory is highly offensive in nature. It's a manipulative tool used by disingenuous religious fanatics.

Please don't ever pretend to know what I think is truthful or not, just go on my word like I do for everyone. Don't assume I know certain things and then claim I deny it. That's the lowest form of debate.


Edited by qman (01/27/20 10:23 PM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: qman] * 2
    #26456250 - 01/28/20 04:19 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Assuming that everyone has some type of understanding of 'truth' when they really might not buy into that theory is highly offensive in nature. It's a manipulative tool used by disingenuous religious fanatics.

Please don't ever pretend to know what I think is truthful or not, just go on my word like I do for everyone. Don't assume I know certain things and then claim I deny it. That's the lowest form of debate.




The fact that you seem so offended shows that you too, ascribe to the belief that there is some type of moral or ethical standard (or law) that I have violated or fallen short of.

The truth is right there in your own heart witnessing against you.

You don't reject the notion of a Moral Law because of a lack of evidence for it... Instead you reject it because it does not conform to your ideology of a purely materialistic reality.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26456327 - 01/28/20 06:39 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
It's indeed amazing to relish in our [usually] shared moral objectives and I agree that there is a inherent thing you are referring to as The Moral Law. However, I fail to see the connection to a specific god.




It's like being able to see bright light, but being unsure of the source.  The light is the Moral Law written on our hearts.... and this Law testifies of a Law-Giver...  an author of the human heart who is deeply invested in the concept of Righteousness, and distinction between Good and Evil. 

This narrows the search down quite a bit.  The Moral Law in our hearts is a strong forensic fingerprint providing a clue of where we come from.

Out of the pantheon of God claims throughout the world, there is nothing even remotely as enigmatic as the case for Jesus Christ. 

Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb.  Not just one account, but several from different points of view.

There is nothing even remotely close to this testimonial phenomena in any other religions.  Christianity stands alone.

And what motivation did a bunch of 1st century Jews have for getting themselves beaten and killed for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? 
Individuals made divinity claims all the time in the ancient world. 
So what was it about Jesus?


Do we dare to open our hearts up to the possibility that Jesus was who he claimed to be?


Quote:

VibeUp said:
The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.




God hates evil.  It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it.  Man's thoughts are wicked continually.

Furthermore, Jesus consistently upholds the Old Testament any time it is brought up in discussion.  Stunningly, Jesus even claims that Moses wrote about HIM. (John 5:46)

And if you really look, He is there.  Jesus is all over the pages of the Old Testament in types and foreshadows.  (e.g. the Passover in Exodus)

If you open your heart up to the possibility that Jesus was what he claimed, the veil begins to fall and the doorway to truth opens. 

The way of eternal truth and life is right there for the taking.

This is coming from someone who ridiculed and mocked Christianity only a few years ago.  I used the same arguments I see from skeptics all over this forum.  I did not want to give up my seat of authority over my life and so I suppressed the truth in my heart.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26456383 - 01/28/20 07:33 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
God hates evil.  It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it.  Man's thoughts are wicked continually.




Fire and brimstone is like, so last century...

Shall we all live in fear and guilt?

The God I know doesn't hate anything.  And evil is only the lack of God.  If we let him in we may find that our thoughts are not so wicked.  And this can be accomplished without fear at all :peace: :love: :heart:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


Edited by Forrester (01/28/20 07:35 AM)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26456399 - 01/28/20 07:48 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
And evil is only the lack of God.




Love <---> evoL

God has two faces, a straight face and a twisted face.

There was as much God in Auschwitz as in Woodstock: 100%

The lack of God? The lack of appreciation for the twisted works of God.

Satan is God's asshole.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26456407 - 01/28/20 07:56 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
There was as much God in Auschwitz as in Woodstock: 100%





That is your belief, not mine.  We'll have to disagree on that one :peace:

I believe God had nothing to do with either of those, since God doesn't acknowledge the illusory world we believe in.  When we wake from our dream we will see this.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26456448 - 01/28/20 08:34 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
God hates evil.  It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it.  Man's thoughts are wicked continually.




Fire and brimstone is like, so last century...

Shall we all live in fear and guilt?

The God I know doesn't hate anything.  And evil is only the lack of God.  If we let him in we may find that our thoughts are not so wicked.  And this can be accomplished without fear at all :peace: :love: :heart:




I think your words reveal a lot. "so last century"... Your god is something that changes depending on shifting desires and whims.  You don't want to be convicted of your own guilt, so your god doesn't convict the guilty.  Your god is whatever lets you be lord over your own life.  Your god is whatever lets you chase your lusts and desires unhindered. 

I know your god very well.  I followed that god for most of my life.

But real Truth is on the other side of accepting guilt and repenting of it.  Truth convicts.

Jesus Christ is the Word of God that has stood unchanged for thousands of years.  Jesus actually shows us the condition of our hearts.  He tells us who we are, where we came from, and where we're going with the voice of total authority.  People directly witnessed Jesus's life, death, and resurrection and wrote about it.  It was written about from multiple eyewitness angles the same way a major news event would be written of.  Jesus is a total enigma of history.

His tomb is empty and He is calling to you.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
- John 3:16


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 3
    #26456453 - 01/28/20 08:38 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Believe what you choose man, I've learned trying to shove my beliefs down others' throats is almost never helpful, so I can only offer an alternative viewpoint.  Whether you choose to even consider it is entirely up to you.

:heart: :peace:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


Edited by Forrester (01/28/20 08:46 AM)


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26456495 - 01/28/20 09:19 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb.  Not just one account, but several from different points of view.





What are the eyewitness accounts for Jesus? I was under the impression there weren't any. You know the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses, right?

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

VibeUp said:
The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.




God hates evil.  It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it.  Man's thoughts are wicked continually.




Same result. I like the idea of a God, but I wouldn't worship the one from the Old Testament. That god is specifically immoral and evil as described in the Christian Bible.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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Offlinepacmanbreed
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Asante]
    #26456524 - 01/28/20 09:46 AM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Satan is God's asshole.




:hahawot: i very well agree to this.
Quote:

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Said: (God of torah)Jeremiah 7:31




Edited by pacmanbreed (01/29/20 10:53 PM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26456958 - 01/28/20 02:33 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb.  Not just one account, but several from different points of view.





What are the eyewitness accounts for Jesus? I was under the impression there weren't any. You know the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses, right?





The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts.  The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.

Importantly, these eyewitness accounts put themselves at risk of historical inquiry, being full of historical details of persons, places, and events.

For example, in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke there is the account of Jesus healing the paralyzed man that is let down through the roof at the apostle Peter's house.  (Again, multiple accounts describing the same event)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_the_paralytic_at_Capernaum

And from archeological discovery we can see the actual location where this is said to have occurred, at Peter's house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_Church,_Capernaum

There is nothing else like this in all the pantheon of religious claims found throughout the ancient world.  Not even close.  Not even the same ballpark. There's nothing like this in the Koran or ancient Hindu texts, etc.... Nowhere else do you find these highly specific claims of eyewitness accounts to divinity in action... filled to the brim with historical/geographical details being examined from multiple viewpoints.

Jesus Christ is a real enigma.  There is no getting around it.

You can doubt of course (just like you can doubt any historical claims), but you cannot honestly lump the Bible in with all other religious claims/texts as if they're all the same.  The Bible is a totally unique phenomena to our reality.

Consider the possibility that it is so unique because the accounts are true.

Jesus actually was who he claimed to be.  And if that's true, then He is resurrected and waiting for you to turn to him this very moment, waiting for you to let Him into your heart.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26457075 - 01/28/20 03:25 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts.  The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.




Yes, that is the claim. Yet all the available evidence points to the New Testament gospels being written long after Jesus' death by non-eyewitnesses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament

I've read the entire Bible through at least once. It's an interesting piece of literature, but there's zero evidence for any of it's supernatural claims. That was the written human understanding of the mystic at the time, but we've evolved more in our thinking. One example being morals. The Bible contains terrible role models and examples of moral law and behavior.

The evil and immoral material in the Bible outweighs whatever good you derive from it. One would expect a genuine holy book to contain a superior moral code that is not otherwise self-evidence. I could write a better moral code than anything contained in the Bible in less than an hour.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26457126 - 01/28/20 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

The book is a mystery for those who have witnessed the magic. I am overwhelmed by the mystery but I have witnessed the magic.

It's one thing to say "God loves you" and another to think of all the intercessors who may not hold you in such high esteem.

So for those who haven't witnessed the magic I say hey that sucks and those who have witnessed first hand will know that it isn't an easy path to follow once you've had that undeniable experience.

So God loves you like you love bar-bq and an intecessor died in your defense to give you a chance at improving yourself and being better able to meet the challenge that God put before you.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26457173 - 01/28/20 04:17 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

:whathesaid: :bow2:
Happy to hear yah in that light man.
Having experience the magic is a bliss
The Sun's shine to both men despite the differences.
God is love.


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Offlinepacmanbreed
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26457273 - 01/28/20 05:19 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts.  The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.




Yes, that is the claim. Yet all the available evidence points to the New Testament gospels being written long after Jesus' death by non-eyewitnesses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament




Quote:

Wiki said:
majority of modern scholars believe it is unlikely that this gospel was written by an eyewitness




Paul as a non physical hand on hand witness but by spirit is special interms of this. And i cant see any contradictions on the letters.

Just want to shed some light for analytical minds. Why does Iesus miracles didnt leaved behind physical evidence?

There are four kinds of evidence which are acceptable to any legal mind, namely:(1) physical, (2) documentary, (3) testimonial, (4) analytical.

In the first place, we have to consider the accounts in the Bible written by the apostles and evangelists, as testimonial and analytical evidences.John says:

Quote:

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” - John 20:30-31




The miracle in Cana, turning water into wine, was witnessed by John and other eyewitnesses, wrote it in his account, and the existence of manuscripts dating back to as early as 120 A.D.(fig. 1), can now be considered as testimonial, analytical, and physical evidence.


These informations written in the Bible, written in ancient writing materials, and are now preserved in various museums of the world, whose authenticity and antiquity is unchallenged even by the detractors of the Bible, can be considered as analytical pieces of evidences.

Luke, a medical doctor and the only Gentile writer of Bible books, writing to another Gentile/heathen, Theophilus, (gentile is someone who is not Jew), investigated the miracles and the works done by the Lord Jesus from eyewitnesses, wrote them in his gospel and in the book of Acts, left them as documentary evidence of Jesus’ miracles.

Quote:

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,”Luke 1:1-3

“In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.”(Acts 1:1-2)




Note that what Luke wrote are accounts from eyewitnesses, and first hand informations, investigated with a perfect understanding of what factually happened.

The testimonial account written and left by the apostles can be subjected to scientific investigation by any legal mind, and can be proven true by collateral pieces of physical evidences.

The absence of physical evidence in our time does not mean that there is no evidence at all!The Lord Jesus healed a woman with an issue of blood for twelve years.Unfortunately, there were no medical forms accomplished and signed by the woman to have documentary evidence from the very person healed.It was not customary then.But eyewitnesses to the miracle wrote them and we have them now in the Bible.If only there were video cameras in those days. there were no contending parties then that deny the authenticity of the miracles, so, the Christians did not see any necessity to preserve the remains of the woman that was healed!

Quote:

“And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said,Daughter,be of good comfort;thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.”Matthew 9:20-22




These accounts written by the apostles, and were read by so many detractors of Jesus were not contested by the great-great grandfather of the modern scholars & new agers minds(I was once in the past)’.The following are the collateral evidences to prove the authenticity of the writings of the apostles who were eyewitnesses to the miracles done by Jesus.

Roman coins found by archaeologists prove the account in Matthew 22:17-21.

Quote:

“Tell us therefore, what thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.And he saith unto them, whose is this image and superscription?They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.”





And to add A piece of limestone on which the name of Pontius Pilate was inscribed proves the existence.

The Roman historian Tacitus wrote concerning the Great Fire of Rome, in book 15, chapter 44 of his Annals (c. 116):

“Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat;”


English Translation:

“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius”


Even a Jewish historian by the name of Flavius Josephus wrote about the miracles and the works done by the Lord Jesus (- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63).

Testimonium Flavianum

(Flavius Josephus’ Account of Jesus)

“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who hadfirst come to love him did not cease.He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”


Unfortunate for the modern scholars of wiki, when Jesus performed a miracle of Himself when He resurrected from the dead, did not leave any physical evidence, because no evidence was left in the grave!

The significance of that little mustard seed of faith. -luke 17:6


Edited by pacmanbreed (01/29/20 10:43 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26457447 - 01/28/20 07:03 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

God loves you like you love bar-bq




In C.S Lewis's allegory Perelandra we see the hero receive a permanent wound for his actions in preventing evil. Ingrained morals in defense of what you hold dear are no match for the word "Do as you would be done by".

Morals demand one course of action in favor of your loved-ones and the Word demands that you temper your actions with caution that often results in wounded pride.


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26457843 - 01/29/20 12:48 AM (4 years, 20 hours ago)

I imagine good and evil as pillars holding up an edifice of sorts. They seem like ingredients for us to create ambiguous paintings. I’m not sure whether evil is even real outside of human sentience because I think it is intertwined with malevolence - knowing what is right and choosing wrong. This path likely leads to destruction with little exception because you’re knowingly running up against principles reliably deemed as “skillful” or of “right action, right thought” as the Buddhists would say.

Believing God is not somewhere is merely a reflection of one’s own judgments about a situation, place, person or thing. Seeing God in Auschwitz is, I think, a step toward no bullshit maturity and humble respect for what human beings are capable of.

The dark is to be respected for what it is, keeps us on our toes and reminds us not to get too righteous because it is a reflection of the shadow within us all. I think the Hero learns to surf perfectly in that zone of optimal wisdom which cannot be gained without confronting the dragons. We all know what naivety looks like.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26457861 - 01/29/20 01:12 AM (4 years, 20 hours ago)

The entire premise of this thread is a metaphysical and epistemological clusterfuck.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26458075 - 01/29/20 07:16 AM (4 years, 14 hours ago)

The innocence of naivety is attractive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg

Untill it makes that fateful step.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26458287 - 01/29/20 09:54 AM (4 years, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
The entire premise of this thread is a metaphysical and epistemological clusterfuck.




best response yet :rofl:


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26458382 - 01/29/20 11:17 AM (4 years, 10 hours ago)

We usually get back what we put out. Participating in destructive behavior leads to destructive results big surprise. but destruction is just the other side of order and its the catalyst for anything new.
Morality is mostly opposed  to real christianity imo. It is the divided mind . Jesus did away with the law, it being an extension of the knowledge of good and evil, the thing that caused the fall.  The law had its place in our evolution but it is mostly milk for babies, something to survive and live by when youre lost in the desert not yet entered the promise land. Love is beyond the divided mind and its our inheritance as we are pulled toward the union of opposites, the peace that passes understanding.
the tricky part during the transition that st paul spoke about is that good works (right action) is the fruit or indicator of a saved mindset, not the prerequisite.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: mt cleverest] * 1
    #26458797 - 01/29/20 04:55 PM (4 years, 4 hours ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
We usually get back what we put out. Participating in destructive behavior leads to destructive results big surprise. but destruction is just the other side of order and its the catalyst for anything new.
Morality is mostly opposed  to real christianity imo. It is the divided mind . Jesus did away with the law, it being an extension of the knowledge of good and evil, the thing that caused the fall.  The law had its place in our evolution but it is mostly milk for babies, something to survive and live by when youre lost in the desert not yet entered the promise land. Love is beyond the divided mind and its our inheritance as we are pulled toward the union of opposites, the peace that passes understanding.
the tricky part during the transition that st paul spoke about is that good works (right action) is the fruit or indicator of a saved mindset, not the prerequisite.




Jesus didn't do away with the law, He fulfilled it.  Whenever the Pharisees challenged Jesus on the Law, he never negated it, but instead rebuked them for not following it enough or being hypocritical about it.

Actually Jesus appeared to be even more strict than the Old Testament Law.

"You have heard it said, thou shalt not commit adultery...
But I say to you, whoever lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart.
"  - Matthew 5:27

That was the piercing truth that Jesus brought.  It doesn't matter how righteous you appear on the surface, what matters is the condition of your heart.  And that was the reason He had to go to the cross, as a perfect sacrifice to cover our sinful hearts.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26458967 - 01/29/20 07:01 PM (4 years, 2 hours ago)

He was showing them they weren't righteous & holy like they thought they were in their law abiding ways.  I agree the issue is the heart and you can speak in the tongues of angels but it means nothing without the inner transformation that jesus mythically laid out in descending to hell & redeeming all things.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: mt cleverest]
    #26459658 - 01/30/20 06:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
He was showing them they weren't righteous & holy like they thought they were in their law abiding ways.  I agree the issue is the heart and you can speak in the tongues of angels but it means nothing without the inner transformation that jesus mythically laid out in descending to hell & redeeming all things.




Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.  Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.


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"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26459753 - 01/30/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.





Except that there are no eyewitness accounts in existence. If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God did a terrible job of documenting it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.




Millions of people have been killed over the centuries for strongly-held beliefs that differ from your own. You finding that hard to imagine only speaks to a lack of imagination. Being willing to die for your beliefs has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of those beliefs.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 3
    #26459763 - 01/30/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God man did a terrible job of documenting it.




And therein lies the problem with the bible, god didn't write it.  Man did.  And then another man edited it, took this out, put this in... and we're left with a dumpster fire of conflicting ideology.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26460112 - 01/30/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

VibeUp said:
If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God man did a terrible job of documenting it.




And therein lies the problem with the bible, god didn't write it.  Man did.  And then another man edited it, took this out, put this in... and we're left with a dumpster fire of conflicting ideology.




Then add men/majority that twist its words for their own materialistic benefit while serving thy belly. That i find it of good by reading it / listening to it in silence instead.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Deuteronomy
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.Proverbs
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:Revelation
Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they search for many schemes. -Ecclesiastes


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #26461130 - 01/30/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

^^^ certainly there is much truth to be found in the bible, I've just never been able to sort out what to believe and what not, but I've been drawn to the words of Jesus since I was quite young - I just had to find another source for them that was all!  :laugh:

didn't mean to be so harsh on the bible but I think you understand where I'm coming from :peace:


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26461375 - 01/31/20 01:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I do feel, that you feel, that I do feel we are in the same page searching. Id rather be harsh on a material book, as far as my lowly BEING can.

:pm: LOVE SPEED. :heart:


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26461628 - 01/31/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.





Except that there are no eyewitness accounts in existence. If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God did a terrible job of documenting it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.




Millions of people have been killed over the centuries for strongly-held beliefs that differ from your own. You finding that hard to imagine only speaks to a lack of imagination. Being willing to die for your beliefs has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of those beliefs.




The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.  There are so many historical details in them that if they weren't actual accounts of people in that time and place, they would be easily disproven.  They are excellect historical documents by any standard, as even informed atheists have had to admit. The only problem is they happen to contain witness accounts to divine miracles which people don't want to believe in.  But the truth is that the gospels would not even have been written if not for those miracles.

The multiple reportings of the gospels flow from an overwhelmingly intense real-world event the same way reports flowed from a global impact event like 9/11.  The event created the reports, not the other way around. 

Something about Jesus stopped humanity in its tracks and fundamentally shifted its gears.  The world was witness to something it could not come to grips with which has forever changed it.  We are even still staring back to that event when we look at the current year.

This truth cannot simply be brushed away.  The enigma of Jesus Christ is a immovable rock in our history.  It is a blaring signal in a field of white noise.


God provided us with excellcent documentation.  The Bible is a stunning witness to Him.  The world is gripped by it, indeed, civilization itself has flowed from it.

If you want to doubt, God let's you doubt.
If you want the truth, it is given to you.

That's one of the cool things about the Bible, you get to learn how God thinks and relates to his creation.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26461698 - 01/31/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.



There are no eyewitness accounts. None.

Quote:

saved7 said:
God provided us with excellcent documentation.



I literally can't think of a worse method of documentation than the Bible. If the God of the Bible exists, he picked perhaps the worst possible way to document it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
That's one of the cool things about the Bible, you get to learn how God thinks and relates to his creation.




I've read the entire Bible at least once and much of it multiple times. There's some good ideas in there, but it's mixed with far too many bad ideas to be useful overall. The god described by the Christian Bible is a immoral monster. What is the value in worshiping a being that is less moral than myself?


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


Edited by VibeUp (01/31/20 07:54 AM)


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26461770 - 01/31/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.



There are no eyewitness accounts. None.





You have no answer to the argument that the gospels are self-authenticating with their myriad of corroborated historical details.  They are clearly accounts of people who were really there at that time and place.


Quote:

VibeUp said: The god described by the Christian Bible is a immoral monster. What is the value in worshiping a being that is less moral than myself?




I think it's becoming more clear why you don't have any arguments.  This is an emotional/spiritual problem you have with God, and little to do with a lack of evidence for Him like you claim.

It is common in Christian testimonies to hear about they used to hate God and wouldn't even consider that the Bible was true. 

I want you to know that no matter how far you've wandered away from God, He will still forgive you and welcome you back.  All of YOUR sins were nailed to that cross, too.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26461778 - 01/31/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

OP, I know it's already been said, but who the fuck are you to tell me what I know?

It's fairly well known that the more intelligent/educated/free thinking a person is, the more likely they are to be atheist.  That said, there is no point in arguing against your ideology.

Also, you aren't doing your own cause any good with this junk


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26461843 - 01/31/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
It is common in Christian testimonies to hear about they used to hate God and wouldn't even consider that the Bible was true.




I've thoughtfully considered if the Bible were true on many occasions. I reject it because of it's gross immorality. Why do you make excuses for a book that describes a terrible example of morality from a god that is objectively evil? You wouldn't defend these things in any other context.

At the end of the day it comes down to caring about things like truth. If a God is immeasurable, then there cannot be proof by definition. I like the idea of a moral God that cares about his creation, but that's not what the Bible describes. If I were picking a god, I'd pick a better one.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26461860 - 01/31/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

If you're a solid christian or other "god fearing" type person, you should be able to get thru this 63 second video.  If you can't, or if it enrages you, I propose that you aren't as solid as you think and a part of you knows something is off


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26461865 - 01/31/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Haha!  The Carlin test :rofl:


--------------------
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26461874 - 01/31/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Haha!  The Carlin test :rofl:



Ooooh, yeah. That should be a thing..like a test you have to take in Sunday School.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26461969 - 01/31/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

:whathesaid::thumbup:

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:

Carlin test :rofl:




Classic :congrats: i like having witnessed it many times. Our societies - most majority of individuals are even a slave of it in the grand picture of things. From minor sectors to major, corrupt churchianity - some corrupt polictal leaders.

Quote:

TheStallionMang said:
It's fairly well known that the more intelligent/educated/free thinking a person is, the more likely they are to be atheist.




To OP. May be a  ex-atheist dude (also in search). Here in the open forums who is just sharing (waiting)esoteric hints beyond that carlin knowledge at micro/nano level. So do as yah do. :thumbup:

Lord im on a permanent holiday,
Im going outside & play,
I aint gonna slave away.

My prophet is heaven sent
No preacher or president
Can lead I astray


-“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal
-“No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.-
Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? -Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: pacmanbreed]
    #26463457 - 02/01/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

OP, where'd ya go?!
:tweak:
There's plenty of people here that need you to save them


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26463519 - 02/01/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Assuming that everyone has some type of understanding of 'truth' when they really might not buy into that theory is highly offensive in nature. It's a manipulative tool used by disingenuous religious fanatics.

Please don't ever pretend to know what I think is truthful or not, just go on my word like I do for everyone. Don't assume I know certain things and then claim I deny it. That's the lowest form of debate.




The fact that you seem so offended shows that you too, ascribe to the belief that there is some type of moral or ethical standard (or law) that I have violated or fallen short of.

The truth is right there in your own heart witnessing against you.

You don't reject the notion of a Moral Law because of a lack of evidence for it... Instead you reject it because it does not conform to your ideology of a purely materialistic reality.




What evidence?


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26470239 - 02/05/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
It is common in Christian testimonies to hear about they used to hate God and wouldn't even consider that the Bible was true.




I've thoughtfully considered if the Bible were true on many occasions. I reject it because of it's gross immorality. Why do you make excuses for a book that describes a terrible example of morality from a god that is objectively evil? You wouldn't defend these things in any other context.

At the end of the day it comes down to caring about things like truth. If a God is immeasurable, then there cannot be proof by definition. I like the idea of a moral God that cares about his creation, but that's not what the Bible describes. If I were picking a god, I'd pick a better one.




This is just more evidence of the Moral Law in action.  The Law written on our hearts which tells us that Good and Evil are quite real and not just imaginary concepts.  We are deeply offended when we believe this Law has been violated.

God does care about his creation.  We are so beneath Him.  Compared to the perfect righteousness of God we are like pigs rolling around in filth day in and day out.  Much lower than pigs.  As a society, one of the things we claim as our greatest achievements is the freedom to slice up children in the womb.  And we sit in judgment of the God who created us.

And yet, as filthy as our hearts are, He still died for us.  The creator of the universe willingly went to the cross for us.  Hanging there, whipped, beaten, and bloody, driven through with nails as the crowds cursed and spit at him, and he hung there, forgiving us for everything.

Jesus Christ is the greatest Love Story of all time.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26470292 - 02/05/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)



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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26470311 - 02/05/20 01:25 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
God does care about his creation.  We are so beneath Him.  Compared to the perfect righteousness of God we are like pigs rolling around in filth day in and day out.  Much lower than pigs.




:jonespalm:

You remind me of a saying about pearls before swine...

That being said, I have to stop


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26470417 - 02/05/20 02:30 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

There is no Moral Law, it's all subjective. Humans are social animals, in order to function we adapt to different versions of "morality" to survive. We are very flexible for obvious reasons, the key is survival and reproduction. That's all morality is about.


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: qman] * 1
    #26471655 - 02/06/20 08:12 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

There is no Moral Law, it's all subjective. Humans are social animals, in order to function we adapt to different versions of "morality" to survive. We are very flexible for obvious reasons, the key is survival and reproduction. That's all morality is about.




Oh the faith it takes to be a materialist...


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26471692 - 02/06/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
This is just more evidence of the Moral Law in action.  The Law written on our hearts which tells us that Good and Evil are quite real and not just imaginary concepts.  We are deeply offended when we believe this Law has been violated.




This proves a shared feeling exists. How did you make the leap to a specific god?

Quote:

saved7 said:
God does care about his creation.  We are so beneath Him.




I am morally superior to the god of the Christian Bible. Why would you worship that one? There's better gods out there. Look to some of the Eastern traditions.

Quote:

saved7 said:
Compared to the perfect righteousness of God we are like pigs rolling around in filth day in and day out.  Much lower than pigs.




I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. You're better than that.

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saved7 said:
Jesus Christ is the greatest Love Story of all time.




And yet there's no empirical evidence that it even happened. Do you care about exploring spirituality and truth or do you just want to peach the talking points for your preferred dogma?


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


Edited by VibeUp (02/06/20 01:20 PM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26473670 - 02/07/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

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VibeUp said:
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saved7 said:
This is just more evidence of the Moral Law in action.  The Law written on our hearts which tells us that Good and Evil are quite real and not just imaginary concepts.  We are deeply offended when we believe this Law has been violated.




This proves a shared feeling exists. How did you make the leap to a specific god?




I don't make that leap.  Every time I post here I offer specific evidence for the Christian God, represented in the person of Jesus Christ, who we have eyewitness testimony to his divinity in action.  We don't have anything like the testimony of Jesus Christ in the rest of our realm of knowledge.  In all the rest of the great religious pantheon we find only speculation.  But in Christianity we have multiple eyewitness reporting on the ground as a major news event and people choosing to die swearing the resurrection really happened.

So, the Moral Law written on our hearts lets us know there is a Law Giver, the Author of all things, God.  And when we look into history, we see God visiting us through the person of Jesus Christ... not only visiting us, but dying for us to save us from our own self-willed separation from our creator God.  Jesus proved that He was who he claimed to be.  He gave us the truth.  He actually was the Truth in human-form.

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VibeUp said:
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saved7 said:
God does care about his creation.  We are so beneath Him.




I am morally superior to the god of the Christian Bible. Why would you worship that one? There's better gods out there. Look to some of the Eastern traditions.




Like I mentioned before, one of the modern world's most cherished freedoms is the freedom to kill children while their still inside the mother's womb.  We slaughter them by the boat-load like it's nothing.  It's considered intellectually offensive to even ask whether it might be immoral to kill them.  THAT is the world.  So all I can do is roll my eyes when people of this age claim moral superiority.  It just shows how badly we need saving from ourselves.  Thank God we have Jesus.

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Compared to the perfect righteousness of God we are like pigs rolling around in filth day in and day out.  Much lower than pigs.




I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. You're better than that.





Anyone who honestly examines their own heart will find the same thing I believe.  The thoughts of men are wicked continually.  Even when we appear to do good, there is usually some selfish angle involved.  We all have a lot to repent for.

This is why there is such resistance to God.  It has almost nothing to do with evidence.  We simply don't want to find the thing that will convict us of our own wicked hearts.  If Jesus is the truth, then we fall way short of the righteousness of God.  And yet at the same time we are reconciled with God through that same Jesus who convicts us.  On the other side of repentance is salvation.

It's one of the most beautiful and liberating things to fall on your knees before God and admit that you're a sinner and need His forgiveness.  There is nothing like it in all the world, to cry out to your heavenly Father as a baby in need.

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Jesus Christ is the greatest Love Story of all time.




And yet there's no empirical evidence that it even happened. Do you care about exploring spirituality and truth or do you just want to peach the talking points for your preferred dogma?




The New Testament is one of the greatest historical records of all time.  The empty tomb of the crucified Jesus has shined forth from out of history as an enigma that is impossible to deny.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26474248 - 02/07/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
The New Testament is one of the greatest historical records of all time.  The empty tomb of the crucified Jesus has shined forth from out of history as an enigma that is impossible to deny.




Well that's just like, your opinion man...
:thedude:


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26475208 - 02/08/20 09:42 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
we have eyewitness testimony to his divinity in action.




No, we don't. There is no known eyewitness testimony of Jesus. None. Your entire sermon depends on evidence that doesn't exist.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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Offlineqman
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26475222 - 02/08/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
we have eyewitness testimony to his divinity in action.




No, we don't. There is no known eyewitness testimony of Jesus. None. Your entire sermon depends on evidence that doesn't exist.




But but but, in the Bible it says... :rofl2:

People have to learn that making ANOTHER claim for a claim is NOT evidence.


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InvisibleBarnaby
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
    #26475531 - 02/08/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

C.S. Lewis is good reading.  Spiritual law governs everything and no religion owns it.  You fuck with it, it will teach you.  Sometimes very harshly.  We all are under it like it or not.  No religion involved.  Just choosing to be born.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26477060 - 02/09/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
we have eyewitness testimony to his divinity in action.




No, we don't. There is no known eyewitness testimony of Jesus. None. Your entire sermon depends on evidence that doesn't exist.




Doubting them is one thing, but pretending the Gospels of Jesus Christ don't exist is a strange position to take.  It's as if you're in a desperate struggle to ensure nobody removes the blindfold from your eyes. 

The disciple Thomas did not believe until he was able to physically handle the wounds of the resurrected Christ that stood before him.  Even then, if he wanted to doubt, he probably could have told himself it was some elaborate trick or extreme hallucination, but instead Thomas chose to accept the Truth standing before Him, proclaiming "My Lord and my God...." ...

The testimony of Jesus cries out from history as a great global event might shake our world today, upending entire communities and entrenched religious orders.  From an evidence-based inquiry, the historical phenomenon of Jesus is undeniable.  You won't find anyone or anything else in the same ballpark.

But the issue isn't really evidence, is it?  If Jesus is the Truth, then we're all doing much evil in the dark kingdoms of our filthy hearts, continually.  Accepting Jesus is simultaneously admitting we're guilty.  The criminal never wants to find the Law-enforcer, until he is finally ready to repent.  That is why we deny Jesus.  It has nothing to do with a lack of evidence.  It's our hearts.

The good news is that on the other side of the truth of our guilt is the truth of God's abundant mercy and forgiveness.  The free gift of Jesus is right here waiting for you to open your heart and accept. 

The stone is rolled away and the tomb is empty, and death itself has been trampled underfoot.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26477493 - 02/09/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
From an evidence-based inquiry, the historical phenomenon of Jesus is undeniable.  You won't find anyone or anything else in the same ballpark.




Your standards of evidence are too low. There's more evidence for literally anything else. Not one eyewitness or first hand account. I'm not impressed.

But hey, I'm old school. I worship the moon. It's a more low-key religion and doesn't have any of the primitive blood sacrifice stuff from the bible.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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