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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26457861 - 01/29/20 01:12 AM (4 years, 18 hours ago)

The entire premise of this thread is a metaphysical and epistemological clusterfuck.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26458075 - 01/29/20 07:16 AM (4 years, 12 hours ago)

The innocence of naivety is attractive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RWS_Tarot_00_Fool.jpg

Untill it makes that fateful step.


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26458287 - 01/29/20 09:54 AM (4 years, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
The entire premise of this thread is a metaphysical and epistemological clusterfuck.




best response yet :rofl:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26458382 - 01/29/20 11:17 AM (4 years, 8 hours ago)

We usually get back what we put out. Participating in destructive behavior leads to destructive results big surprise. but destruction is just the other side of order and its the catalyst for anything new.
Morality is mostly opposed  to real christianity imo. It is the divided mind . Jesus did away with the law, it being an extension of the knowledge of good and evil, the thing that caused the fall.  The law had its place in our evolution but it is mostly milk for babies, something to survive and live by when youre lost in the desert not yet entered the promise land. Love is beyond the divided mind and its our inheritance as we are pulled toward the union of opposites, the peace that passes understanding.
the tricky part during the transition that st paul spoke about is that good works (right action) is the fruit or indicator of a saved mindset, not the prerequisite.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: mt cleverest] * 1
    #26458797 - 01/29/20 04:55 PM (4 years, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
We usually get back what we put out. Participating in destructive behavior leads to destructive results big surprise. but destruction is just the other side of order and its the catalyst for anything new.
Morality is mostly opposed  to real christianity imo. It is the divided mind . Jesus did away with the law, it being an extension of the knowledge of good and evil, the thing that caused the fall.  The law had its place in our evolution but it is mostly milk for babies, something to survive and live by when youre lost in the desert not yet entered the promise land. Love is beyond the divided mind and its our inheritance as we are pulled toward the union of opposites, the peace that passes understanding.
the tricky part during the transition that st paul spoke about is that good works (right action) is the fruit or indicator of a saved mindset, not the prerequisite.




Jesus didn't do away with the law, He fulfilled it.  Whenever the Pharisees challenged Jesus on the Law, he never negated it, but instead rebuked them for not following it enough or being hypocritical about it.

Actually Jesus appeared to be even more strict than the Old Testament Law.

"You have heard it said, thou shalt not commit adultery...
But I say to you, whoever lusts after a woman has already committed adultery in his heart.
"  - Matthew 5:27

That was the piercing truth that Jesus brought.  It doesn't matter how righteous you appear on the surface, what matters is the condition of your heart.  And that was the reason He had to go to the cross, as a perfect sacrifice to cover our sinful hearts.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26458967 - 01/29/20 07:01 PM (4 years, 20 minutes ago)

He was showing them they weren't righteous & holy like they thought they were in their law abiding ways.  I agree the issue is the heart and you can speak in the tongues of angels but it means nothing without the inner transformation that jesus mythically laid out in descending to hell & redeeming all things.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: mt cleverest]
    #26459658 - 01/30/20 06:08 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
He was showing them they weren't righteous & holy like they thought they were in their law abiding ways.  I agree the issue is the heart and you can speak in the tongues of angels but it means nothing without the inner transformation that jesus mythically laid out in descending to hell & redeeming all things.




Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.  Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26459753 - 01/30/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.





Except that there are no eyewitness accounts in existence. If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God did a terrible job of documenting it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.




Millions of people have been killed over the centuries for strongly-held beliefs that differ from your own. You finding that hard to imagine only speaks to a lack of imagination. Being willing to die for your beliefs has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of those beliefs.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 3
    #26459763 - 01/30/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God man did a terrible job of documenting it.




And therein lies the problem with the bible, god didn't write it.  Man did.  And then another man edited it, took this out, put this in... and we're left with a dumpster fire of conflicting ideology.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlinepacmanbreed
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26460112 - 01/30/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Quote:

VibeUp said:
If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God man did a terrible job of documenting it.




And therein lies the problem with the bible, god didn't write it.  Man did.  And then another man edited it, took this out, put this in... and we're left with a dumpster fire of conflicting ideology.




Then add men/majority that twist its words for their own materialistic benefit while serving thy belly. That i find it of good by reading it / listening to it in silence instead.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.Deuteronomy
Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.Proverbs
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:Revelation
Behold, this only have I found: that God made man upright; but they search for many schemes. -Ecclesiastes


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #26461130 - 01/30/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

^^^ certainly there is much truth to be found in the bible, I've just never been able to sort out what to believe and what not, but I've been drawn to the words of Jesus since I was quite young - I just had to find another source for them that was all!  :laugh:

didn't mean to be so harsh on the bible but I think you understand where I'm coming from :peace:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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Offlinepacmanbreed
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26461375 - 01/31/20 01:52 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I do feel, that you feel, that I do feel we are in the same page searching. Id rather be harsh on a material book, as far as my lowly BEING can.

:pm: LOVE SPEED. :heart:


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26461628 - 01/31/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Those who followed Jesus certainly did not believe it was a myth.  They testified to seeing Jesus' miracles, death, and resurrection with their own eyes, even physically handling his resurrected body.





Except that there are no eyewitness accounts in existence. If this is the most important truth for humans to know and understand, God did a terrible job of documenting it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
Indeed, it is hard to imagine a group of 1st century Jews suddenly deciding to get themselves beaten and killed over a mythical idea.  There was zero doubt in their minds at what they had been witness to.




Millions of people have been killed over the centuries for strongly-held beliefs that differ from your own. You finding that hard to imagine only speaks to a lack of imagination. Being willing to die for your beliefs has absolutely nothing to do with the truth of those beliefs.




The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.  There are so many historical details in them that if they weren't actual accounts of people in that time and place, they would be easily disproven.  They are excellect historical documents by any standard, as even informed atheists have had to admit. The only problem is they happen to contain witness accounts to divine miracles which people don't want to believe in.  But the truth is that the gospels would not even have been written if not for those miracles.

The multiple reportings of the gospels flow from an overwhelmingly intense real-world event the same way reports flowed from a global impact event like 9/11.  The event created the reports, not the other way around. 

Something about Jesus stopped humanity in its tracks and fundamentally shifted its gears.  The world was witness to something it could not come to grips with which has forever changed it.  We are even still staring back to that event when we look at the current year.

This truth cannot simply be brushed away.  The enigma of Jesus Christ is a immovable rock in our history.  It is a blaring signal in a field of white noise.


God provided us with excellcent documentation.  The Bible is a stunning witness to Him.  The world is gripped by it, indeed, civilization itself has flowed from it.

If you want to doubt, God let's you doubt.
If you want the truth, it is given to you.

That's one of the cool things about the Bible, you get to learn how God thinks and relates to his creation.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26461698 - 01/31/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.



There are no eyewitness accounts. None.

Quote:

saved7 said:
God provided us with excellcent documentation.



I literally can't think of a worse method of documentation than the Bible. If the God of the Bible exists, he picked perhaps the worst possible way to document it.

Quote:

saved7 said:
That's one of the cool things about the Bible, you get to learn how God thinks and relates to his creation.




I've read the entire Bible at least once and much of it multiple times. There's some good ideas in there, but it's mixed with far too many bad ideas to be useful overall. The god described by the Christian Bible is a immoral monster. What is the value in worshiping a being that is less moral than myself?


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


Edited by VibeUp (01/31/20 07:54 AM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] * 1
    #26461770 - 01/31/20 08:43 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

VibeUp said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
The eyewitness accounts of the gospels are self-authenticating.



There are no eyewitness accounts. None.





You have no answer to the argument that the gospels are self-authenticating with their myriad of corroborated historical details.  They are clearly accounts of people who were really there at that time and place.


Quote:

VibeUp said: The god described by the Christian Bible is a immoral monster. What is the value in worshiping a being that is less moral than myself?




I think it's becoming more clear why you don't have any arguments.  This is an emotional/spiritual problem you have with God, and little to do with a lack of evidence for Him like you claim.

It is common in Christian testimonies to hear about they used to hate God and wouldn't even consider that the Bible was true. 

I want you to know that no matter how far you've wandered away from God, He will still forgive you and welcome you back.  All of YOUR sins were nailed to that cross, too.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 2
    #26461778 - 01/31/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

OP, I know it's already been said, but who the fuck are you to tell me what I know?

It's fairly well known that the more intelligent/educated/free thinking a person is, the more likely they are to be atheist.  That said, there is no point in arguing against your ideology.

Also, you aren't doing your own cause any good with this junk


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OfflineVibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26461843 - 01/31/20 09:46 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
It is common in Christian testimonies to hear about they used to hate God and wouldn't even consider that the Bible was true.




I've thoughtfully considered if the Bible were true on many occasions. I reject it because of it's gross immorality. Why do you make excuses for a book that describes a terrible example of morality from a god that is objectively evil? You wouldn't defend these things in any other context.

At the end of the day it comes down to caring about things like truth. If a God is immeasurable, then there cannot be proof by definition. I like the idea of a moral God that cares about his creation, but that's not what the Bible describes. If I were picking a god, I'd pick a better one.


--------------------
"When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
    #26461860 - 01/31/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

If you're a solid christian or other "god fearing" type person, you should be able to get thru this 63 second video.  If you can't, or if it enrages you, I propose that you aren't as solid as you think and a part of you knows something is off


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OfflineForresterM
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: TheStallionMang]
    #26461865 - 01/31/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Haha!  The Carlin test :rofl:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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InvisibleTheStallionMang
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
    #26461874 - 01/31/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Haha!  The Carlin test :rofl:



Ooooh, yeah. That should be a thing..like a test you have to take in Sunday School.


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