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saved7
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You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law 1
#26454964 - 01/27/20 11:03 AM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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CS Lewis - Right & Wrong - A Clue to the Meaning of the Universe
This is a short video, basically summed up like this:
Generally, everyone in the world understands there is some kind of Moral Law. Even if there are many variations on right & wrong behavior throughout the world's societies, people everywhere behave as if that Moral Law is real. For example, when you have a feeling that the law has been transgressed, (e.g. You didn't keep a promise you made to someone) you instinctively begin developing a list of excuses for yourself as to why you fell short of it.
Even if we'd like to intellectually deny the truth of a real Moral Law, we live and breathe as if the Law is weighing down upon us continually as a witness against us.
You can find people who may act entirely immoral in all things, but this does not negate the truth of the Moral Law anymore than finding a color-blind person may negate the truth that the vast, vast majority of people see and respond to color.
So, we can either desperately deny this truth of Right and Wrong written in all of our hearts and staring us in the face.
Or accept it and its implications.
And those implications are why many of us want to deny the existence of the Law, and of Right & Wrong. It is a blinding light that draws us out of our preferred darkness.
We instictively understand that as soon as we accept the truth of the Moral Law written in our hearts, we can nolonger use the flimsy excuse that God didn't give us any evidence for his existence. We will be drawn out into the light of truth, and there is no going back.
So, will you stay hidden in the darkness, or will you venture into the light?
from Romans Ch.1+2:
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,g in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus."
....He is waiting for you....
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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VibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] 1
#26455106 - 01/27/20 12:47 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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It's indeed amazing to relish in our [usually] shared moral objectives and I agree that there is a inherent thing you are referring to as The Moral Law. However, I fail to see the connection to a specific god. The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.
-------------------- "When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts
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Forrester
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] 2
#26455907 - 01/27/20 07:58 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
VibeUp said: The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.
Have to agree there, in fact I think the whole idea of God being wrathful/vengeful is a bit primitive. Seems more like humans projecting their own (less than desirable) qualities on something we don't understand.
I think something with the ability to create us would not choose to create us in such a way as to deem us defective and then punish us. Just seems a bit ridiculous to me
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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qman
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
#26456092 - 01/27/20 10:21 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Assuming that everyone has some type of understanding of 'truth' when they really might not buy into that theory is highly offensive in nature. It's a manipulative tool used by disingenuous religious fanatics.
Please don't ever pretend to know what I think is truthful or not, just go on my word like I do for everyone. Don't assume I know certain things and then claim I deny it. That's the lowest form of debate.
Edited by qman (01/27/20 10:23 PM)
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saved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: qman] 2
#26456250 - 01/28/20 04:19 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Assuming that everyone has some type of understanding of 'truth' when they really might not buy into that theory is highly offensive in nature. It's a manipulative tool used by disingenuous religious fanatics.
Please don't ever pretend to know what I think is truthful or not, just go on my word like I do for everyone. Don't assume I know certain things and then claim I deny it. That's the lowest form of debate.
The fact that you seem so offended shows that you too, ascribe to the belief that there is some type of moral or ethical standard (or law) that I have violated or fallen short of.
The truth is right there in your own heart witnessing against you.
You don't reject the notion of a Moral Law because of a lack of evidence for it... Instead you reject it because it does not conform to your ideology of a purely materialistic reality.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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saved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] 1
#26456327 - 01/28/20 06:39 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
VibeUp said: It's indeed amazing to relish in our [usually] shared moral objectives and I agree that there is a inherent thing you are referring to as The Moral Law. However, I fail to see the connection to a specific god.
It's like being able to see bright light, but being unsure of the source. The light is the Moral Law written on our hearts.... and this Law testifies of a Law-Giver... an author of the human heart who is deeply invested in the concept of Righteousness, and distinction between Good and Evil.
This narrows the search down quite a bit. The Moral Law in our hearts is a strong forensic fingerprint providing a clue of where we come from.
Out of the pantheon of God claims throughout the world, there is nothing even remotely as enigmatic as the case for Jesus Christ.
Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb. Not just one account, but several from different points of view.
There is nothing even remotely close to this testimonial phenomena in any other religions. Christianity stands alone.
And what motivation did a bunch of 1st century Jews have for getting themselves beaten and killed for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ? Individuals made divinity claims all the time in the ancient world. So what was it about Jesus?
Do we dare to open our hearts up to the possibility that Jesus was who he claimed to be?
Quote:
VibeUp said: The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.
God hates evil. It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it. Man's thoughts are wicked continually.
Furthermore, Jesus consistently upholds the Old Testament any time it is brought up in discussion. Stunningly, Jesus even claims that Moses wrote about HIM. (John 5:46)
And if you really look, He is there. Jesus is all over the pages of the Old Testament in types and foreshadows. (e.g. the Passover in Exodus)
If you open your heart up to the possibility that Jesus was what he claimed, the veil begins to fall and the doorway to truth opens.
The way of eternal truth and life is right there for the taking.
This is coming from someone who ridiculed and mocked Christianity only a few years ago. I used the same arguments I see from skeptics all over this forum. I did not want to give up my seat of authority over my life and so I suppressed the truth in my heart.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Forrester
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] 1
#26456383 - 01/28/20 07:33 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said: God hates evil. It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it. Man's thoughts are wicked continually.
Fire and brimstone is like, so last century...
Shall we all live in fear and guilt?
The God I know doesn't hate anything. And evil is only the lack of God. If we let him in we may find that our thoughts are not so wicked. And this can be accomplished without fear at all
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
Edited by Forrester (01/28/20 07:35 AM)
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Asante
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
#26456399 - 01/28/20 07:48 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said: And evil is only the lack of God.
Love <---> evoL
God has two faces, a straight face and a twisted face.
There was as much God in Auschwitz as in Woodstock: 100%
The lack of God? The lack of appreciation for the twisted works of God.
Satan is God's asshole.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Forrester
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Asante] 1
#26456407 - 01/28/20 07:56 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: There was as much God in Auschwitz as in Woodstock: 100%
That is your belief, not mine. We'll have to disagree on that one 
I believe God had nothing to do with either of those, since God doesn't acknowledge the illusory world we believe in. When we wake from our dream we will see this.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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saved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Forrester]
#26456448 - 01/28/20 08:34 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
saved7 said: God hates evil. It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it. Man's thoughts are wicked continually.
Fire and brimstone is like, so last century...
Shall we all live in fear and guilt?
The God I know doesn't hate anything. And evil is only the lack of God. If we let him in we may find that our thoughts are not so wicked. And this can be accomplished without fear at all 
I think your words reveal a lot. "so last century"... Your god is something that changes depending on shifting desires and whims. You don't want to be convicted of your own guilt, so your god doesn't convict the guilty. Your god is whatever lets you be lord over your own life. Your god is whatever lets you chase your lusts and desires unhindered.
I know your god very well. I followed that god for most of my life.
But real Truth is on the other side of accepting guilt and repenting of it. Truth convicts.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God that has stood unchanged for thousands of years. Jesus actually shows us the condition of our hearts. He tells us who we are, where we came from, and where we're going with the voice of total authority. People directly witnessed Jesus's life, death, and resurrection and wrote about it. It was written about from multiple eyewitness angles the same way a major news event would be written of. Jesus is a total enigma of history.
His tomb is empty and He is calling to you.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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Forrester
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7] 3
#26456453 - 01/28/20 08:38 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Believe what you choose man, I've learned trying to shove my beliefs down others' throats is almost never helpful, so I can only offer an alternative viewpoint. Whether you choose to even consider it is entirely up to you.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
Edited by Forrester (01/28/20 08:46 AM)
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VibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
#26456495 - 01/28/20 09:19 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said: Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb. Not just one account, but several from different points of view.
What are the eyewitness accounts for Jesus? I was under the impression there weren't any. You know the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses, right?
Quote:
saved7 said:
Quote:
VibeUp said: The God of the Old Testament in particular doesn't strike me as a moral actor by any modern definition.
God hates evil. It's only through His mercy that we're even still here to talk about it. Man's thoughts are wicked continually.
Same result. I like the idea of a God, but I wouldn't worship the one from the Old Testament. That god is specifically immoral and evil as described in the Christian Bible.
-------------------- "When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts
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pacmanbreed



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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Asante]
#26456524 - 01/28/20 09:46 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said: Satan is God's asshole.
i very well agree to this.
Quote:
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Said: (God of torah)Jeremiah 7:31
Edited by pacmanbreed (01/29/20 10:53 PM)
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saved7
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] 1
#26456958 - 01/28/20 02:33 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
VibeUp said:
Quote:
saved7 said: Eyewitness accounts of this man who claimed to be God in the flesh who willingly went to the bloody Cross and left behind an empty tomb. Not just one account, but several from different points of view.
What are the eyewitness accounts for Jesus? I was under the impression there weren't any. You know the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses, right?
The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts. The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.
Importantly, these eyewitness accounts put themselves at risk of historical inquiry, being full of historical details of persons, places, and events.
For example, in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke there is the account of Jesus healing the paralyzed man that is let down through the roof at the apostle Peter's house. (Again, multiple accounts describing the same event) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_the_paralytic_at_Capernaum
And from archeological discovery we can see the actual location where this is said to have occurred, at Peter's house. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_Church,_Capernaum
There is nothing else like this in all the pantheon of religious claims found throughout the ancient world. Not even close. Not even the same ballpark. There's nothing like this in the Koran or ancient Hindu texts, etc.... Nowhere else do you find these highly specific claims of eyewitness accounts to divinity in action... filled to the brim with historical/geographical details being examined from multiple viewpoints.
Jesus Christ is a real enigma. There is no getting around it.
You can doubt of course (just like you can doubt any historical claims), but you cannot honestly lump the Bible in with all other religious claims/texts as if they're all the same. The Bible is a totally unique phenomena to our reality.
Consider the possibility that it is so unique because the accounts are true.
Jesus actually was who he claimed to be. And if that's true, then He is resurrected and waiting for you to turn to him this very moment, waiting for you to let Him into your heart.
-------------------- "Who do you say that I am?" - Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew
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VibeUp
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: saved7]
#26457075 - 01/28/20 03:25 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
saved7 said: The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts. The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.
Yes, that is the claim. Yet all the available evidence points to the New Testament gospels being written long after Jesus' death by non-eyewitnesses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament
I've read the entire Bible through at least once. It's an interesting piece of literature, but there's zero evidence for any of it's supernatural claims. That was the written human understanding of the mystic at the time, but we've evolved more in our thinking. One example being morals. The Bible contains terrible role models and examples of moral law and behavior.
The evil and immoral material in the Bible outweighs whatever good you derive from it. One would expect a genuine holy book to contain a superior moral code that is not otherwise self-evidence. I could write a better moral code than anything contained in the Bible in less than an hour.
-------------------- "When you get the message, hang up the phone."—Alan Watts
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Buster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp] 1
#26457126 - 01/28/20 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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The book is a mystery for those who have witnessed the magic. I am overwhelmed by the mystery but I have witnessed the magic.
It's one thing to say "God loves you" and another to think of all the intercessors who may not hold you in such high esteem.
So for those who haven't witnessed the magic I say hey that sucks and those who have witnessed first hand will know that it isn't an easy path to follow once you've had that undeniable experience.
So God loves you like you love bar-bq and an intecessor died in your defense to give you a chance at improving yourself and being better able to meet the challenge that God put before you.
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pacmanbreed



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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26457173 - 01/28/20 04:17 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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 Happy to hear yah in that light man. Having experience the magic is a bliss The Sun's shine to both men despite the differences. God is love.
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pacmanbreed



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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: VibeUp]
#26457273 - 01/28/20 05:19 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
VibeUp said:
Quote:
saved7 said: The Gospels of Jesus Christ are definitely claimed to be eyewitness accounts. The original carriers of these accounts claim to have actually witnessed these events with their own eyes.
Yes, that is the claim. Yet all the available evidence points to the New Testament gospels being written long after Jesus' death by non-eyewitnesses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament
Quote:
Wiki said: majority of modern scholars believe it is unlikely that this gospel was written by an eyewitness
Paul as a non physical hand on hand witness but by spirit is special interms of this. And i cant see any contradictions on the letters.
Just want to shed some light for analytical minds. Why does Iesus miracles didnt leaved behind physical evidence?
There are four kinds of evidence which are acceptable to any legal mind, namely:(1) physical, (2) documentary, (3) testimonial, (4) analytical.
In the first place, we have to consider the accounts in the Bible written by the apostles and evangelists, as testimonial and analytical evidences.John says:
Quote:
“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” - John 20:30-31
The miracle in Cana, turning water into wine, was witnessed by John and other eyewitnesses, wrote it in his account, and the existence of manuscripts dating back to as early as 120 A.D.(fig. 1), can now be considered as testimonial, analytical, and physical evidence.

These informations written in the Bible, written in ancient writing materials, and are now preserved in various museums of the world, whose authenticity and antiquity is unchallenged even by the detractors of the Bible, can be considered as analytical pieces of evidences.
Luke, a medical doctor and the only Gentile writer of Bible books, writing to another Gentile/heathen, Theophilus, (gentile is someone who is not Jew), investigated the miracles and the works done by the Lord Jesus from eyewitnesses, wrote them in his gospel and in the book of Acts, left them as documentary evidence of Jesus’ miracles.
Quote:
"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,”Luke 1:1-3
“In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.”(Acts 1:1-2)
Note that what Luke wrote are accounts from eyewitnesses, and first hand informations, investigated with a perfect understanding of what factually happened.
The testimonial account written and left by the apostles can be subjected to scientific investigation by any legal mind, and can be proven true by collateral pieces of physical evidences.
The absence of physical evidence in our time does not mean that there is no evidence at all!The Lord Jesus healed a woman with an issue of blood for twelve years.Unfortunately, there were no medical forms accomplished and signed by the woman to have documentary evidence from the very person healed.It was not customary then.But eyewitnesses to the miracle wrote them and we have them now in the Bible.If only there were video cameras in those days. there were no contending parties then that deny the authenticity of the miracles, so, the Christians did not see any necessity to preserve the remains of the woman that was healed!
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“And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment: For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said,Daughter,be of good comfort;thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.”Matthew 9:20-22
These accounts written by the apostles, and were read by so many detractors of Jesus were not contested by the great-great grandfather of the modern scholars & new agers minds(I was once in the past)’.The following are the collateral evidences to prove the authenticity of the writings of the apostles who were eyewitnesses to the miracles done by Jesus.
Roman coins found by archaeologists prove the account in Matthew 22:17-21.
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“Tell us therefore, what thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.And he saith unto them, whose is this image and superscription?They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.”

And to add A piece of limestone on which the name of Pontius Pilate was inscribed proves the existence.
The Roman historian Tacitus wrote concerning the Great Fire of Rome, in book 15, chapter 44 of his Annals (c. 116):
“Nero subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per flagitia invisos vulgus Christianos appellabat. Auctor nominis eius Christus Tibero imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat;”English Translation: “Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius”Even a Jewish historian by the name of Flavius Josephus wrote about the miracles and the works done by the Lord Jesus (- Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63). Testimonium Flavianum (Flavius Josephus’ Account of Jesus) “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man.For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who hadfirst come to love him did not cease.He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him.And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”Unfortunate for the modern scholars of wiki, when Jesus performed a miracle of Himself when He resurrected from the dead, did not leave any physical evidence, because no evidence was left in the grave! The significance of that little mustard seed of faith. -luke 17:6
Edited by pacmanbreed (01/29/20 10:43 PM)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown] 1
#26457447 - 01/28/20 07:03 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
God loves you like you love bar-bq
In C.S Lewis's allegory Perelandra we see the hero receive a permanent wound for his actions in preventing evil. Ingrained morals in defense of what you hold dear are no match for the word "Do as you would be done by".
Morals demand one course of action in favor of your loved-ones and the Word demands that you temper your actions with caution that often results in wounded pride.
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CountHTML
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Re: You already know God exists - Right and Wrong - The Moral Law [Re: Buster_Brown]
#26457843 - 01/29/20 12:48 AM (4 years, 22 hours ago) |
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I imagine good and evil as pillars holding up an edifice of sorts. They seem like ingredients for us to create ambiguous paintings. I’m not sure whether evil is even real outside of human sentience because I think it is intertwined with malevolence - knowing what is right and choosing wrong. This path likely leads to destruction with little exception because you’re knowingly running up against principles reliably deemed as “skillful” or of “right action, right thought” as the Buddhists would say.
Believing God is not somewhere is merely a reflection of one’s own judgments about a situation, place, person or thing. Seeing God in Auschwitz is, I think, a step toward no bullshit maturity and humble respect for what human beings are capable of.
The dark is to be respected for what it is, keeps us on our toes and reminds us not to get too righteous because it is a reflection of the shadow within us all. I think the Hero learns to surf perfectly in that zone of optimal wisdom which cannot be gained without confronting the dragons. We all know what naivety looks like.
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