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InvisiblePocketLady
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Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple * 2
    #26454240 - 01/26/20 09:37 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

I remember reading Autobiography of a Yogi and being really interested by the idea that there was some Guru/Disciple link between Jesus and John the Baptist, even in from past lifetimes. Here's a really interesting article that elaborates on that idea.


In Autobiography of a Yogi and other writings, Paramhansa Yogananda reveals the identity of Jesus Christ in a past life, and also of Jesus’ guru from that life. He discloses how Jesus met his guru again in his life as Jesus, but under unusual circumstances in a kind of role reversal!

Yogananda tells us that in their past lives, John the Baptist was the great prophet Elijah and Jesus was his foremost disciple, Elisha. He writes that by the time of their respective incarnations as Jesus and John, Jesus had attained Self-realization whereas John did so only at the end of that lifetime. The lesson Yogananda shares is one of divine friendship: how the disciple and guru remain in an eternal bond of soul helping soul.

This deeper understanding of Jesus’ life makes it clear that the Bible itself discloses that the doctrine of reincarnation was widely accepted by the Jewish people of ancient times, and by Jesus as well.

Elijah and Elisha in the Old Testament
The explanation Yogananda gives is not as difficult to discern from the Bible as it might seem at first.  Let us go back in time through the pages of the Bible to Kings II, Chapter 2. It is a brief chapter, and we read here that when Elijah the prophet became aware that he was soon to leave his body, he offered his disciple, Elisha, a boon, saying, in effect, “Ask what you want of me before I leave you.”

Elisha’s response shows the intensity of his spiritual quest, for without missing a beat, he responds, one imagines rather eagerly, “Let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me!”

Elijah withdraws into silence seeking the divine sanction necessary to grant such a request. Receiving it, Elijah sets one condition: “Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.” (Thereafter Elisha doesn’t let his guru out of his sight!)

When Elijah leaves his body, the Bible says that Elisha then took up Elijah’s “mantle,” which Yogananda explains was “his glory and his spiritual wealth.”  Soon thereafter, when the rest of Elijah’s disciples saw Elisha, they could see that “the spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha.” 1

“I will send you Elijah.”
Let us now move forward in time and in scripture to the closing words of the Old Testament by the prophet Malachi. We come upon the prophecy that the prophet Elijah would reincarnate as the messenger and herald of the Messiah: “Behold, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” 2

Yogananda writes that the word “before” refers to the fact that John the Baptist would be born just ahead of Jesus. John’s work of preparing people for the coming of the Messiah also began before Jesus’ public ministry.

“Filled with the Holy Ghost”
At last we arrive to the incarnations of Jesus and John the Baptist. In the New Testament it is said that an angel conveyed a similar prophecy to Zacharias, father of the soon-to-be-conceived child, John the Baptist.

The angel tells Zacharias that he would have a son who would be “filled with the Holy Ghost,” would turn many people “to the Lord their God,” and would “go before him in the spirit and power of Elias…” (The Greek translators of the New Testament spelled “Elijah” as “Elias.”)3

Yogananda cites these two accounts of the prophecy, along with the passages discussed below, to show that the Jews of the Old Testament, and at the time of Christ, accepted the doctrine of reincarnation without hesitation.

Indeed, by the time Jesus appeared on earth, every Jew, lettered or unlettered, knew of the prophecy and was eagerly awaiting Elijah’s return as heralding the coming of the Messiah.

John denies he was Elijah
Thus, when John the Baptist appeared on the scene and began to develop a following, various Jewish priests went to John to ask if he was the Messiah. John replied, “I am not the Christ.”

They then asked him point blank, “What then, are you Elias?”  And as the New Testament reports, John denied that he was Elias.4

Yogananda tells us that John could not yet recollect his prior life as Elijah. To achieve final liberation, John led an austere life of penance, prayer, and solitude.

“In the name of righteousness”
Yogananda explains that although Jesus was now “perfected in divine realization” and had surpassed his guru, he nonetheless sought John’s blessing through baptism by water at the start of his public work.

When John protested that he was not worthy, Jesus replied that his baptism should be permitted in the name of “righteousness”—meaning in acknowledgement of their eternal bond as disciple and guru.

Afterwards, the voice of the unseen Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, affirmed Jesus’ divine stature and blessed him also.5

Jesus confirms that John was Elijah (Elias)
Some time after the baptism, John the Baptist, who was by then in prison, sent two of his disciples to interview Jesus and to ask him to be more specific as to his identity. After the interview, as John’s disciples were preparing to leave, Jesus spoke to those around him.

Jesus began by praising John the Baptist’s high spiritual stature. Then he announced that the prophets and scriptures of old had all prophesied about John, adding boldly, “And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for(told) to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”6

That last comment was a “Listen up” to those who could understand what Jesus was really saying. In other words, “I’m not going to spell it out for you but John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elias as foretold by Malachi.”

“His face did shine as the sun”
Jesus’ thinly veiled declaration as to John’s identity was repeated after his transfiguration on Mt. Tabor. John the Baptist was now dead, killed by King Herod.

In the transfiguration, Jesus appeared to three of his closest disciples in his luminous astral body, (“His face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”) He appeared in the company of Moses and Elias (similarly “attired”).

Afterwards, as Jesus and the disciples descended the mountain, it was natural for the disciples, armed with this latest and most dramatic confirmation of Jesus’ role as the Messiah, to ask: “Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?”7 In other words, “If you’re the Messiah, where’s Elias?”

Jesus’ reply to the disciples’ question is astonishingly simple — and unequivocal. He says that Elias has indeed come:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, “. . . I say unto you, that Elias is    come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall the Son of Man suffer of them.” Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.8

Jesus was also reminding those who “had ears to hear” of the prophecy that his own body would similarly suffer at the hands of ignorant people.

Yogananda writes that John’s appearance with Jesus on Mt. Tabor in the form of his guru, Elias, signified that John, by his death at the hands of Herod, had achieved final liberation.  Interestingly, it was to Elias that Jesus cried out from the cross. (See sidebar below)

Thus it is that the Indian scriptures aver that the eternal bond of divine friendship between guru and disciple is the greatest blessing in the “three worlds.”

Terry McGilloway and his wife, Padma, serve as acharyas (spiritual directors) for Ananda Seattle.


The Great Ones Unite — Jesus, Elias, and Moses
by Paramhansa Yogananda


The appearance of Elias and Moses on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus reveals that the Heavenly Father has a special message for the world through their united lives. I have pointed out that Elias or Elijah was no other than the guru of Jesus’’ former incarnation as Elisha.

The guru and the true disciple form a act of unconditional love and try to help each other through incarnations until final liberation is reached. Elias and Jesus had been in touch with each other in many incarnations, unknown to man.

Elias’ transfigured appearance on Mt. Tabor signified that John the Baptist had achieved final liberation by his death at the hands of King Herod. He appeared to Jesus in his former role as his guru, Elias, to give him strength to overcome without difficulty the great ordeal of death on the cross. It was to Elias, his guru, that Jesus cried our on the cross.

The united presence of Moses and Jesus on the mount of transfiguration was a divine beacon installed by God to shine through future ages to dissolve the clannish differences between His Jewish and Christian children. Modern Jews, therefore, should take heed and establish their brotherhood with Christians.

Endnotes:
1) Kings II, 2:9-15
2) Malachi 4:5
3) Luke 1:15-17
4) John 1:20-21
5) Mathew 3:11-17
6) Mathew 11:1-15
7) Mathew 17:1-13
8) Mathew 17:11-13
9) Mathew 17:46


https://www.ananda.org/blog/jesus-elijah-yoga-yogananda/


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26454245 - 01/26/20 09:44 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

:threadmonitor:
Too tired to read now, will be back.


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Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε

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:chemistry: Stains, Reagents, and Media :alert:

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: BayerPhi]
    #26454787 - 01/27/20 09:00 AM (4 years, 2 days ago)

me too, awesome thanks~!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: Forrester]
    #26458948 - 01/29/20 06:53 PM (4 years, 2 hours ago)

Very interesting, makes me want to finish reading that book!  I'm like half way through it and got distracted...

Have you ever heard of Jesus and the Essenes by Dolores Cannon?  It's got some pretty interesting info on the life and times of Jesus, if you're open to channeled material.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 2
    #26460489 - 01/30/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Autobiography of a Yogi was one of the last books I read at the end of my undergrad studies, the last semester. It prompted me to read a modern paperback version of the New Testament. In my immediate post-graduate void, working briefly in a factory then as a driver for an electrical supply store, I went through a Catholic catechism, took baptism, considered a monastic vocation, but instead entered a United Methodist seminary and took a Masters in Theological Studies degree. Now mind you, I graduated from seminary in 1978 and a year later I went off to graduate school, but I have had decades to process these trips. But I digress.

Hopefully you will not be offended by the following, but Yogananda had an agenda: (1) to espouse a Yoga philosophy in the West and (2) he also had a typically Hindu agenda which seeks to absorb the tenets of other religions into itself or to interpret, in this case, Hebrew midrashic writings through a Hindu idiom. It was all very intriguing for me to do this kind of mental gymnastic because the biblical stories had become fossilized and irrelevant for me at that point of my life. The yogic treatment injected new life into the old forms and they began to live again for me. Unfortunately, that reanimation was not legitimate. Like Stephen King's book Pet Semetary, when reanimation occurs the form may appear the same but the animating force itself is something quite alien and sometimes sinister. The Hindu idioms which reanimated the biblical material for me, if not exactly sinister, were alien to the intention of the authors of the Tenach (Old Testament) and the Haftarah (Prophets). For this reason I now deem the interpretation inaccurate to the point of them being dishonest. The only legitimate exegesis of religious writings (any religious writings) must come from within its own tradition. One cannot legitimately apply a metaphysical system from outside a given tradition. One must ask what the writer's intentions were.

Hindu interpretations of Hebrew writings is not an intellectually legitimate enterprise. Some Hindu thinkers have  recognized Iesous but not as the early Christians saw Him, nor even as the Talmudic Jewish opposition did (in a derogatory way), but as one more Self-Realized avatar in their enormous lexicon of Realized Masters. Buddhists have sometimes regarded Iesous as a great Bodhisattva, but not as a Fully Enlightened Buddha. He was neither of course because neither term belongs to the tradition in which he developed out of. Yogananda's Hindu treatment of Iesous is a sort of spiritual one-upmanship which marginalizes the uniqueness of Iesous within the historical milieu He was said to have arisen from. It's been decades since I read the book but I think he cited the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553 AD) held in Constantinople as the point where reincarnation was decisively rejected from orthodox Christian doctrine. There is some truth to this but the metaphysics of historical religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) have a linear model of time and this actually resonates with modern cosmology. The cyclical metaphysics of Hinduism, an acosmic religion, contains cycles within cycles with the entire universe being created, reabsorbed and created again ad infinitum. The idea of resurrection is one of transformation rather than "eternal return."

One cannot ignore that Hindu upstart Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, who denied the existence of a permanent soul (the Bible Never says we have an 'immortal soul' anywhere) that reincarnates. What is reborn are psychic constituents that are dissolved at death and recycled into other human beings but it is not like our intact 'soul' transmigrates from one body to another like the Symbiont in the TV show 'Deep Space Nine,' that slug-like entity living inside of Jadzia Dax! Most people want to settle on a myth or metaphysic and live it out AS IF it reflects Reality for everyone at every place and time. I find myself necessarily highlighting the gross inconsistencies in world religions and consequently acknowledging along with Socrates and contrary to my tag here that "All I know is that I know nothing" regarding how it all is. Like Robert Anton Wilson, “I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions.”


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 2
    #26468681 - 02/04/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your input Markos. I am not silly enough to get into an intellectual debate with you on this :grin: But what I will say is that from where I am standing, it doesn't really matter who came from what tradition, and the language and terms we use to describe everything. All of this is based in the conceptual mind which likes to compartmentalize everything, and in spiritual terms, that mind is the very thing which keeps us from knowing the true spiritual state ourselves. I feel that Yogananda was not trying to absorb Christianity into Hinduism, but instead trying to get us to see that it does not matter whether you are Hindu, Jewish, Christian, whatever, the heart of the process is the same. It's what all great teachers have tried to tell us. The ego likes to separate and make distinctions between things, whereas spirit creates union. People are built the same whether they are from the East or the West, so it makes sense that the process towards self-realization would be the same, although with cultural and nomenclatural differences.

Oh, and I love that R.A.W quote. That is one of my most overused quotes ever! It's true we can no nothing by using the intellectual mind, but I suspect that there is a deeper wisdom and knowing which lies beyond it.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26468723 - 02/04/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I choose Universal Spirituality over Organized religion framings now-a-days.

Religion compartmentalizes and further culturalizes more universal truths.
It obscures a universal message that can be more easily stated in plain language.

There are no gurus/Gods among men.
Just human beings expressing their experiences.

In that are often many others (less popular) who have often said/expressed the same thing.
So, what's the TL;DR without the religious backdrop?


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26468757 - 02/04/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think most spiritual teachers will tell you, they have no religion. I agree that religion is a framework that is unnecessary for people who are trying to find real truth. For a very long time it seems like much religion has basically been a control mechanism and a means to teach people moral ideas through dogma, but that's not to say there is no truth in any of it. The inner truths have been hidden and disguised within the outer teachings imho.

The basic premise of this post is that there is evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and a link between Jesus and John the Baptist in a student/teacher relationship in the Old and New Testaments. Whether you want to believe in the role of the teacher in spiritual development is up to you, and sadly the idea of the Teacher/Guru has been distorted by those who lack authenticity. I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469134 - 02/04/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I think most spiritual teachers will tell you, they have no religion. I agree that religion is a framework that is unnecessary for people who are trying to find real truth. For a very long time it seems like much religion has basically been a control mechanism and a means to teach people moral ideas through dogma, but that's not to say there is no truth in any of it. The inner truths have been hidden and disguised within the outer teachings imho.

The basic premise of this post is that there is evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and a link between Jesus and John the Baptist in a student/teacher relationship in the Old and New Testaments. Whether you want to believe in the role of the teacher in spiritual development is up to you, and sadly the idea of the Teacher/Guru has been distorted by those who lack authenticity. I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'




Reincarnation is more of an eastern concept that is far more refined in such a context.
Trying to carve this out in the bible which never presents and intelligible framing is weird and a rather strained route to work with this concept. The best Guru is respective the plurality/infinitude of the cosmos and worker to gather as much experience/perspective as you can. Listening more than speaking until you've reached a certain point. Respecting things until you understand and transcend them.


Quote:

PocketLady said:
but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy.




This is nearly impossible in organized religion because it isn't authentic/raw.
It can help you as training wheels do until you can discern and discard the unauthentic portions. The belief can train your mind and stretch it. There's value in organized religion/religion. However, towards spiritual realms you have transcended it. Even with reincarnation being far more detailed in Eastern religions. It is a concept you can speak of spiritual outside of a religious context.


Quote:

PocketLady said:
I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'




My understanding is that you get out what you put in. If you craft a lot of this yourself and dedicate serious time to the truth, you will eventually grasp it. If you seek shortcuts via a heavy reliance on a Guru/teacher/philosopher, you will only ultimately achieve their limited scoping of the world and will be quite narrowed to it. I've formed most of my spiritual understanding beyond religion by talking to 1000s of people, listening, integrating, comparing, researching, debating, disagreeing, finding lies, traveling to obscure niches, respectfully considering all possibilities and then working on a transcendent framing beyond this collection.

I could have focused on a handful of Gurus that framed spiritual but in that I would be over reliant on their conclusions. This 'limit' works for most. It doesn't work for a person in search of something far and beyond prior 'Gurus' work.. An originator/A person who wants to discover something new. Because in order to that you must first respectfully learn, grasp teaching, but then know when and welcome the point when you transcend it. You have to have a certain disrespect for respectable things... and that's not the flavor of most pursuits.

So, Jesus/John the baptist .. eternal bond/Guru/disciple.. Reincarnation in a western framing.. These are quite foreign and weird ideas to me... Far from the more raw truth of the cosmos... I can define a single Eastern religion that transcends this whole stretch... and even that should be transcended. But this is ultimately why, in order to get to spirituality, you should respectfully consume/understand a wealth of religions from around the world and learn from prior establishment.

Jesus was a metaphor.
A completely twisted versioning of a Judaic concept to fork a new universal religion and in that came the lies and confusion that this character is premised on. Once you transcend Christianity and respectfully visit the religion its premised on, you get beyond the Jesus Guru praise. Once that occurs, you get beyond western religion.. Likely go on to far more spiritual eastern religion. Once you grasp eastern religion/theology, you are primed for more raw spirituality. A guru can tv dinner package this for you but can never deliver the knowledge/wisdom/depth gained from putting in the hard ground work.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26469155 - 02/04/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I really do appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this. The thing is, I've had a personal spiritual teacher for more than 6 years, after searching many years under my own steam. It totally changed my life. In fact that is a huge understatement. I've had incredible perspective changing experiences which go beyond anything I ever dreamed were possible. So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect. I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with :peace:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469172 - 02/04/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I really do appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this. The thing is, I've had a personal spiritual teacher for more than 6 years, after searching many years under my own steam. It totally changed my life. In fact that is a huge understatement. I've had incredible perspective changing experiences which go beyond anything I ever dreamed were possible. So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect. I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with :peace:





>  So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect
>  I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with

And similarly, I am only here to express my experience beyond this and as I do in this state-space scrutinize a beaten path for it is my experience and comfort in doing so.

In comparison, I never have consulted a spiritual guide or guru. Instead, I talked/debated and hashed it out with 'regular' people and followed up on information provided therein. Not a practice suited for most but indeed where a person grasps enough to establish something new and move the ball forward for humanity.

There's the more human aspect of spirituality that gives you the warm fuzzy on a day to day...
And then there's the more chaotic realm of exploration. I speak more from this as it is my perspective/experience.

The warm fuzzy is a given as I am a human being and have found a peace of sorts.
I simply longed and went in search of something beyond the human experience.

It's a lonely road seemingly. I gained a lot of my basis from earlier conversations here but as of late it seems things are more about the human experience/enrichment therein vs the more chaotic/cosmic framing of 'spirituality'.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469211 - 02/04/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

This place was a real learning platform for me too a few years ago, and I know what you mean about it being a lonely road, that's for sure. That's one of the reasons having a teacher and belonging to a group has been so beneficial for me. Ultimately, they cannot do the work for me, but it sure is nice to know there are other people who can relate to what I am going through. Authentic spirituality is a long and treacherous road. I guess it depends on what the ultimate aim of the journey is. For me, it's complete Realization, the permanent uncovering of and residing in the space beyond the small mind where suffering no longer exists, where I can truly live for others instead of living for myself. I don't consider myself to be Christian by any stretch, but I do feel the Bible contains much wisdom when interpreted in the right way:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

That space I am trying to find, it's like trying to hit a bullseye, and I don't think I am going to find it by following my instincts and my mind. My mind is what has repeatedly gotten me into trouble in the first place. Only someone who has been there, who has the map and knows the way, knows the tricks of the mind, can help me. If it were as easy as just following my nose, it seems like there should be a whole bunch of Enlightened people wandering around this planet, and sadly, that doesn't appear to be the case. That's just my perspective anyway.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469428 - 02/04/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
This place was a real learning platform for me too a few years ago, and I know what you mean about it being a lonely road, that's for sure. That's one of the reasons having a teacher and belonging to a group has been so beneficial for me. Ultimately, they cannot do the work for me, but it sure is nice to know there are other people who can relate to what I am going through. Authentic spirituality is a long and treacherous road. I guess it depends on what the ultimate aim of the journey is. For me, it's complete Realization, the permanent uncovering of and residing in the space beyond the small mind where suffering no longer exists, where I can truly live for others instead of living for myself. I don't consider myself to be Christian by any stretch, but I do feel the Bible contains much wisdom when interpreted in the right way:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

That space I am trying to find, it's like trying to hit a bullseye, and I don't think I am going to find it by following my instincts and my mind. My mind is what has repeatedly gotten me into trouble in the first place. Only someone who has been there, who has the map and knows the way, knows the tricks of the mind, can help me. If it were as easy as just following my nose, it seems like there should be a whole bunch of Enlightened people wandering around this planet, and sadly, that doesn't appear to be the case. That's just my perspective anyway.




The majority are unenlightened and no where on the path to be simply due to their personal choices and valuations.
Life has many entrapments. It is far easier to lend oneself to them. A spiritual guide or many can't lift people out of this self-willed paralysis. Religion broadly did this with spiritual training wheels and even it in modern times has faded. Further, so have many 'gurus' because the body of knowledge they work on is dated and already perceived by people. People know how to live in the moment broadly already. They already know they can manipulate reality and their sensibilities and do so quite often. They already know they can manipulate their sexuality, etc. They are covered in spiritual symbolism and are well read. They just simply choose, when equipped with this to pursue or more materialistic life.

Along the spiritual path, indeed one's ultimate aim determines the lengths and nature of their strides and understanding. For the majority, an augmented peace beyond the physical world and a sense of purpose/direction in the physical +a sense of the after-life is sufficient.. This is what religion predominately provides. If this is the ultimate aim of one's spiritual pursuits, this is what most adherents to religions are doing and why it always has existed. Something beyond that is what I seek and others, this is where the hard personal work begins as you're in uncharted territory... There are no 'Gurus' .. Only nomads who you can compare notes with. There's no community in this group... Everyone's out crisis crossing the spiritual frontier. Interaction is sparse and fleeting and this is fine. This is what you sign up for in such pursuits.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26469444 - 02/04/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I feel like the point of a spiritual teacher is not to teach from outdated scripture, but to bring a refreshed and updated version of the teachings for the current generation. But if that is what makes sense to you, that there are no Gurus, then who am I to argue with that? It doesn't fit my own experience though. I could tell you some of my experiences but I don't think it would make much difference, because it can never compare to actually doing it oneself. There is no real way to communicate that. It can only be experienced directly and debating about it doesn't really do much good imho. That's why I just try to share things that others might be interested in, and people are free to think whatever they like about it :smile:


Edited by PocketLady (02/04/20 11:47 PM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26469561 - 02/05/20 01:25 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I feel like the point of a spiritual teacher is not to teach from outdated scripture, but to bring a refreshed and updated version of the teachings for the current generation. But if that is what makes sense to you, that there are no Gurus, then who am I to argue with that? It doesn't fit my own experience though. I could tell you some of my experiences but I don't think it would make much difference, because it can never compare to actually doing it oneself. There is no real way to communicate that. It can only be experienced directly and debating about it doesn't really do much good imho. That's why I just try to share things that others might be interested in, and people are free to think whatever they like about it :smile:



As you were... Watched the video you posted of a 'guru' type in another thread and I have to say I couldn't even make it through 5 minutes. There were so many misinformed statements... pseudo-science. Completely ridiculous framing of ego and outright bad and dangerous advice that it was unstably amateur and disorienting.

Just because you have had some life experiences doesn't make you a Guru.
There are far too many unenlightened posers in this field and its quite frankly dangerous as hell the kind of advice they give packaged as some form of spiritual enlightenment... They don't even produce basic sound advice.

They're on level 2 of 100 of enlightenment, self declared gurus, and trying to advise people on spiritual enlightenment.

This is what leads to foolishness like :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid


In my current state, I can gain more enlightenment jacking off than getting my head scrambled by one of these gurus.
Lastly, there's nothing that is spiritually enlightened that can't be described in general and basic language as I have already done in this thread.

Misinterpreting the hierarchy and inter-relationship between awareness and ego is a classic and detrimental mistake.
Misidentifying and misframing ego is another huge one. There's talks from Terrance McKenna and and Alan watts that blow the doors off any of this tv-dinner self-declared Guru foolishness and path therein and neither of those individuals would even dare call themselves Gurus...

In fact :
Be your own Guru

and note how he respectfully refers to established teachings from another individual.

If you go for tv dinner gurus you'll likely be on their program for years. Any real guru will teach you in short order how to be your own Guru and then highlight : there are no Gurus. So, if the goal here is to highlight actual 'Guru' level information, I'll make sure to continue post actually sound spiritual advice .. Not from a Guru but a spiritual nomad broadly covering established spiritual knowledge.

Also, not to point out something close to home but I too live in California and the whole state is overrun with bullshit Gurus/retreats/spiritual industry. Especially Socal.. I'm up in Norcal where's there's far less of this b.s and moreso actual eastern immigrants who bring with them religion/eastern theology. Fitting with the landscape and nature of California, everyone's looking for some golden ticket retreat or fix me up to fuel them to thrive in a spiritually abusive backdrop and its tiresome.

This is the kind of commercialized bullshit I think about when I think of Gurus/spirituality in socal :


Literally copy/pasta'ng eastern theology and hawking it to locals who don't know any better at a pretty premium.
This is the reason why where are so many cults that spin out of socal... It's predatory and falsely framed as is the nature of the environment.

Alan watts :
School
• Zen Buddhism
• Hinduism
• Pantheism
• Panentheism
• Christianity
• religious naturalism
• Taoism

Essentially Eastern theology/religion.
*sigh*

Meanwhile in TV-dinner guru land :
Drukama Treasury™ shares profound esoteric and mystical revelations to help spiritual seekers understand the authentic mysteries of Meditation, Self-Realization, and Liberation.
Unlock the Treasury™ at https://www.patreon.com/drukama

:closecall:


Edited by r00tcmplx (02/05/20 01:37 AM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26470334 - 02/05/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.

When Joshua was conquering the Promised Land, tearing down the walls of Jericho, it was a picture of Jesus conquering the believers' heart and the walls we build between ourselves and the love of God.

Just as Jesus, following his baptism in the Jordan River, is lead into the wilderness to be tested for 40 days... the same as Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness following their baptism in the Red Sea.

In the pages of the Bible, the truth of what reality actually is, is constantly being presented to us in these various micro/macrocosm narratives.  Reality is anchored around Jesus - The Word/Logos/Logic/Intelligibility of God, and how we choose to interact with it. 

As a final demonstration of His power, God came down onto the Cross to die for us.  Just as Samson single-handedly ripped open the heavy gates of the Phillistines and marched up the mountain in victory,  Jesus willingly descended into the grave only to completely obliterate death, and forge a pathway for us back up into eternal life with our Creator.

His tomb is empty to this day. 

Now it's up to us whether or not we want to follow Him out and finally be free.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: saved7]
    #26470415 - 02/05/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.




Jesus is a metaphor. Before even Judiasm existed there were religions 1000s of years older with prominent figures just like 'Jesus'. Should I be an absolute idiot and not believe in the conceptual framing that existed before someone copy/pasta'd it into their religion? Yet believe in the copy/pasta'd version that came 1000s of years later? You take me for a fool? A blind believer? A fearful person who thinks I have to believe in some desert religion or else I'll go to hell? Give me a break... If you have truth/wisdom, share it... But spare me the bedtime stories...


Quote:

saved7 said:
When Joshua was conquering the Promised Land, tearing down the walls of Jericho, it was a picture of Jesus conquering the believers' heart and the walls we build between ourselves and the love of God.

Just as Jesus, following his baptism in the Jordan River, is lead into the wilderness to be tested for 40 days... the same as Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness following their baptism in the Red Sea.

In the pages of the Bible, the truth of what reality actually is, is constantly being presented to us in these various micro/macrocosm narratives.  Reality is anchored around Jesus - The Word/Logos/Logic/Intelligibility of God, and how we choose to interact with it. 

As a final demonstration of His power, God came down onto the Cross to die for us.  Just as Samson single-handedly ripped open the heavy gates of the Phillistines and marched up the mountain in victory,  Jesus willingly descended into the grave only to completely obliterate death, and forge a pathway for us back up into eternal life with our Creator.

His tomb is empty to this day. 

Now it's up to us whether or not we want to follow Him out and finally be free.



Pass.. spare me the bible sermons. I'm over it.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26471583 - 02/06/20 07:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.




Jesus is a metaphor. Before even Judiasm existed there were religions 1000s of years older with prominent figures just like 'Jesus'. Should I be an absolute idiot and not believe in the conceptual framing that existed before someone copy/pasta'd it into their religion? Yet believe in the copy/pasta'd version that came 1000s of years later? You take me for a fool? A blind believer? A fearful person who thinks I have to believe in some desert religion or else I'll go to hell? Give me a break... If you have truth/wisdom, share it... But spare me the bedtime stories...




And yet in all of the religious pantheon of history there is nothing else like the eyewitness testimony of Jesus in the New Testament.

Usually myths and legends take centuries to permeate the culture, yet right there in history we have people choosing martyrdom, willing to die over what they claimed to directly witness... Jesus walking amongst them, doing miracles throughout the towns and cities, outwitting the greatest religious authorities of the time with ease, dying on the cross, being buried, and coming back to life, leaving an empty tomb that has mystified scholars ever since.

You want Jesus to be just another claim amongst an ocean of religious claims, because that would make it easier to deny, but the simple fact is that He is not.  There is nothing like the claimed eyewitness testimonies of Jesus Christ anywhere else.  There is simply nothing else to compare it to.

Here's the story of a former atheist who spent years trying to disprove the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is now a believer.  It's the same story for anyone who approaches this subject honestly with a desire for the truth.  The more you look, the more you begin to realize it is actually true.

Lee Strobel - The Case For Christ
(Presentation starts at 13 minute mark)


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26473724 - 02/07/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Tldr: great share. :thumbup: while im more of a ressurection guy rather than reincarnation. I admire your goin deep interms of the scriptures.

My summary interms of it.
Quote:

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Hebrews 11:11



Despite old age through faith isaac was born.


Quote:

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.Luke 1:13



Similarly Through faith despite Elisabeth being a barren & old - John was born. If we read further in the endnotes.


Quote:

And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:16-17



Note: the spirit and power of Elijah before him, Being guided by.

Just as Elisha being the first companion of Elijah, before Prophet Elijah was taken by GOD. Elisha wished that the Spirit of Elijah be with him.
So as with Elisha after obtaining the robe of Elijah Was granted with the might & spirit of Elijah. 2 kings 2-9:15

Elisha being the first man who was guided by the Spirit of Elijah thus exclude reincarnation in a sense of being reborn thru a belly.. So as When John  was born, it is written in the scripture that he will be guided by the spirit and might of Elijah. This concluceds that John was not elijah but was guided by the Spirit of elijah.

Quote:

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:14-17




Endnote:
Reincarnation interms of Eg. The Imbecile(pardon the word) that claim a reincarnation of some sort angel/prophet/apostles. Even the Worse a single man proclaiming to be Jesus and preaching thy word(for the sake of money) - and unfortunately some ending in a disaster.

Its no wonder that those kind of self proclaimed teachers/pastor/gurus/reverend/priest/bishops along their names are forewarned in the sciptures specially during this times.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: pacmanbreed] * 2
    #26473808 - 02/07/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your thoughts :thumbup: It's interesting to contemplate whether historically there was a belief in reincarnation. Seems like there is evidence that could go either way in the Bible.

It's true the Bible does specifically warn against false prophets. I think that's sadly the problem that we are faced with today. There are some amazing genuine spiritual teachers out there imho (I think Yogananda was one of them personally), but the false ones give the whole idea of a student/teacher relationship a bad rap. The issue is with discernment, which is not easy in these confusing times. I always feel like the genuine ones hit me in the face, but I know there are countless people tithing to fake pastors, or being sexually assaulted/mislead by fake gurus, ending up in cults etc. May we have the clarity and wisdom to know the difference :sun:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (02/07/20 12:09 PM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26474115 - 02/07/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I find such discussion of high value from realized fellows and can relate fully.

with the teacher/student having a bad rap, more so with the mudified scriptures that are non-diligently interpreted. Id follow my gut the way you do interms of this. :thumbup:
Quote:

Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5




Though im not from the west, Personally id choose self-realization over churchianity that revolves around tithes founded specially in those parts. Self-realization So as long it doesn't have a fix $$price tag, Given that Spirituality is already a lonely serious path this adds up to the burden.

The way it is in this parts, is that we dont have a particular guru/teacher/pastor to be called along the name but rather realized brothers/sisters to help in the self-realization processs.

Ps. Reincarnation is a bit different than ressurection in some extent as mark have pointed.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #26474137 - 02/07/20 03:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I understand where you are coming from, and I think I actually held a very similar view to you in times gone by. When I first met my teacher, he did not present himself as a teacher, but rather as a brother/friend who had already achieved what those of us around him were seeking. Indeed, at that time, I would never have accepted someone as my Guru. He was exactly what I needed him to be at that time, and that's all an authentic teacher ever is at any point; exactly what the student needs them to be, for they have no egoic concerns, and no concern of status or otherwise. It was only over time that a more traditional student/teacher relationship emerged, but that is something that one cannot really explain unless one has been through it, imho. I had some life-changing spiritual experiences which completely changed my perspective in that respect. A true teacher gives fully of themselves, with no desire for anything in return. They are not interested in name, status, or anything else. My teacher was completely anonymous for many years, even many of his long-time students had never seen his face. He never wanted it to be about him, but the teachings. It's only because the public have had a hard time accepting an anonymous teacher that he finally decided to lose that.

I also once believed that spiritual teachings should be free, and whilst I do believe that spiritual teachings should be accessible to everyone, regardless of income etc, it seems important for a number of reasons that the student should contribute something in return for what they are receiving. Whether that is a monetary contribution, volunteering or helping in some other way, or the traditional kind of offerings that might be given in Eastern traditions. A huge part of ego is basically self concern. We are always thinking of 'me', of receiving, of a sense of entitlement, 'what do I get from this' type mentality. So, it seems like trying to give something to someone who is trying to help us be free from ego might be a good place to start. Secondly, the teacher has no self concern, they are only concerned with helping others, but that doesn't mean that they do not need to eat, to have somewhere to live, to be able to devote themselves to sharing the teachings without having to have another job on the side. There may even be costs involved in providing the teachings and trying to reach students. The teacher should be looked after in that respect imho.

Thirdly, often spiritual teachers will not only be providing teachings, but also trying to create an environment in which the teachings can reach more people, where charitable projects can provide for those in need, for those trying to leave the world and dedicate themselves to the spiritual path etc. So, as a student, it is my wish to contribute in such a way that I can help to enable these projects. It's a sad fact of life that money makes the world go around, and that even spiritual organisations cannot do anything without money, so sometimes they have to play the game, imho.

Anyway, just my 2 cents based on what I have experienced the last few years, and it's not something I expect everyone to understand. It's not a perspective I came to overnight, but it has been a gradual unfolding. I will say that my teacher has given me more than I could ever hope to give him, not just teachings which themselves are priceless, but even financial support and the very clothes from his back, no exaggeration.

Quote:

Ps. Reincarnation is a bit different than resurrection in some extent as mark have pointed.




Yeah that's a good point. I guess I would see resurrection as being synonymous with Realization/Enlightenment and being 'born again' in the spirit, at least allegorically. I know in actuality Christ was already 'Enlightened' before he was resurrected.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (02/07/20 03:43 PM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26474736 - 02/07/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Sad fact interms of some spiritual organization(eg. the major religous sectors of the west) playing by the game. It is really against by the scripture to use such flow in charitable works. Nothing beats a clean slice of a fruit from the heart, than a dirty penny.

I think youve pretty  summarized it aswell in my part.. Thats one of the main essence of spirituality. contemplating and Understanding such struggles together with thy fellow teacher or better yet an elder, brother, whom have shown a good path. A Guidance to teach thyself by the grace of God always directs our steps.

Ps. Youve nailed the ressurection as mark jokingly pointed, more of a symbiote in a sense, And is infinitely contagious. thus it mirror those beatiful quotes in that signature.
We may not agree on this one but just to add from my plain limited understanding is that there are 2 kinds/order of it for those who have not attained Realization during a lifetime(circumstances, specially in this dark era and of the past) for a long glorious light years to come. 1tim4:10,acts 24:14
by that i dont fully incline in the biological chains of deathrebith. although i find it a bit appealing that it may have a part in between.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26474810 - 02/07/20 11:23 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

When I first got into the New Testament at the end of college it was right after reading Autobiography of a Yogi. One of the first things I did shortly after college was to take the Transcendental Meditation course but more, I entered teacher-training for TM®.  I was supposed to travel to Switzerland (not India) for initiation by the Maharishi when I dropped out of class 3 weeks earlier. I didn't have any money to fly to Switzerland, didn't have a passport, and discovered that I'd have to cut my long hair off and wear a 3-piece business suit for the privilege of getting a low-paying job as a teacher of TM®. :lol: Then I received a sort of threatening phone call about being prevented from ever re-applying myself to TM® but after the expense of the training they may have surmised that I had been 'turned.' They were right. From a Christian defector who had written on it, I realized that a certain amount of deception was built into the TM® trip.

This was common to cults in the 70s. The Moonies called it "divine deception." The "meaningless" mantra was not meaningless but names of spiritual 'entities' for lack of a better term and the Sanskrit ritual for which we had to bring white cloth and fruit was never translated for us acolytes. I was pledging myself to a lineage of gurus but also the ritual was supposed to be opening the initiate to spiritual beings I had never read about and inviting them into the Lotus of one's Heart, i.e., one's innermost being.

Well, after I entered seminary in 1976 I was still very hurt from the deceptions of the first girl I ever fell in love with (she became then and remains to this day a sex worker - another story), TM® had deceived me and this fantastic girl had deceived me and then I turned my gaze to my occult library which I collected, took to a friend's house, piled up in the snow, doused with lighter fluid and burned. I was done with deception, 'divine' or otherwise. All of these things came together for me but I did learn in seminary that intellectual integrity as well as moral-ethical integrity demanded as rigorous an analysis as my philosophy program had. A hodge-podge of spiritual assertions from differing traditions DID make a difference. Yes, this is the nature of the analytical thinking function but the Thinking function is like the gantry that supports rockets at NASA's Cape Kennedy. It is an absolutely necessary structure which serves to support the vehicle that will soon leave it far behind in a flood of fiery rocket thrust. Yogananda was teaching Kriya Yoga, a specific path, but he wasn't telling people to attempt to become Hindus in the process.

What is not so evident is that the nature of 'spiritual development' varies tremendously between the esoteric heights of the religions. The samadhis of Hindu classic Yoga (which I have experienced, even the Nirvikalpa state) suggest that one needs to remain in altered states (with Sahaj samadhi being the highest form, or Sat Chit Ananda). Buddhism, especially in its Theravadin and Zen forms dismiss the mental fireworks, the nimittas or lights and blisses. They are makyo, illusions, and need to be experienced but released not valued as signs of spiritual attainment. Meanwhile, from a Jewish point of view, union with God is Never acknowledged even in the most mystical Kabbalistic sources. Likewise with Islam unless one is a Sufi, a tangential Muslim who has absorbed a goodly amount of Hindu thought. Unlike Shiites and Sunnis, Sufis are considered to be marginal Muslims even though they remain within Islamic culture. Christianity has Christ-mysticism but not God-mysticism (the best explanation I ever read on this difference was in a very old book by the theologian-physician Albert Schweitzer in his book The Mysticism of Paul the Apostle. Self-realization is a magnitude beyond Self-actualization such as transpersonal psychologists have espoused. The only place I've really seen it is in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas (Thomas established a Christian church in India).

The bottom line is that we can be seduced by appealing intellectual doctrines (I was taken in by Yogananda) and be fooled into thinking that we are living a spiritual life based on certain assumptions about our subjective condition. But if our subjective condition does not manifest as compassionate action in the outer world but takes on a disengagement which we rationalize as being some lofty detachment from the world (vairaya in Hindu thought, ataraxia or apatheia in Greek thought), we are just fooling ourselves. I remember TMers using the Hindu notion of the Rasa Lila, Dance of Life, as a justification for casual sex vs. every other restraint that Yoga demanded. I could tell a Moonie simply by the same glassy-eyes that characterized them. The followers of the Divine Light Mission had their own 'tell' even before they spoke. Their chubby little Guru Maharaji used to live in a mansion near my college, ride around on a sit-down lawnmower, and talk to passers by on the secret of "Life, Spirit, and Death" as he put it. No mystery where he was getting his high from but his prostrating followers who gave him all their money were pathetic. Where are they today? One follower who used to crash in our dorm and meditate at 5:00 am under a sheet looking like a ghost became a lawyer eventually. The way I see it, I use my analytical mind and logic like the Sword of Discrimination of Manjushri and try to cleave off the barnacles of bullshit that constantly accumulate over my ostensibly 'saved' Being.



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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 2
    #26476963 - 02/09/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I really enjoyed reading your post Markos. The last line made me laugh and I totally hear where you are coming from :lol: I guess I'm coming from a slightly different place. My teacher is extremely well versed in many different traditions, including Kabbalah, Yoga, Tantra, Daoism, Zen, Christianity and many more and he has repeatedly shown me over the years how they are all ultimately pointing at the same thing, especially the mystical traditions, although the terminology used may make it so it might appear on the surface that they are not. However, lets face it, there aren't a whole bunch of Enlightened beings wandering this planet at the moment, which says to me that perhaps despite the fact that all of these traditions originally had the answers, they may not all have the full story now. Feels like a lot of stuff has been lost, distorted, misinterpreted and diluted in this age of spiritual darkness we have been in for a long time.

I also think that perhaps some paths were never meant to be 'completion' paths. If the idea that we have to go through many thousands of lifetimes of learning is true, it would make sense that in many of those lives we progress through increasing levels of spiritual understanding by following different paths, not all of which give the final keys to true Enlightenment, at least not in what they teach outwardly. What's the point in learning how to enter into mystical union with God if during that lifetime, you just need to open to the idea that a Creator exists at all? Maybe different traditions represent different grades in school. No use trying to put a 5 year old through high school classes and expecting them to understand it. It doesn't mean that all traditions are not ultimately pointed at the same place however.

Just ideas anyway :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (02/09/20 02:03 PM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: pacmanbreed] * 2
    #26477109 - 02/09/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

pacmanbreed said:
Sad fact interms of some spiritual organization(eg. the major religous sectors of the west) playing by the game. It is really against by the scripture to use such flow in charitable works. Nothing beats a clean slice of a fruit from the heart, than a dirty penny.

I think youve pretty  summarized it aswell in my part.. Thats one of the main essence of spirituality. contemplating and Understanding such struggles together with thy fellow teacher or better yet an elder, brother, whom have shown a good path. A Guidance to teach thyself by the grace of God always directs our steps.

Ps. Youve nailed the ressurection as mark jokingly pointed, more of a symbiote in a sense, And is infinitely contagious. thus it mirror those beatiful quotes in that signature.
We may not agree on this one but just to add from my plain limited understanding is that there are 2 kinds/order of it for those who have not attained Realization during a lifetime(circumstances, specially in this dark era and of the past) for a long glorious light years to come. 1tim4:10,acts 24:14
by that i dont fully incline in the biological chains of deathrebith. although i find it a bit appealing that it may have a part in between.




We may not agree totally on this one but I really welcome your perspective :thumbup:

Reincarnation or what happens after death is ultimately all conjecture anyway, although it is very interesting to contemplate. I guess what really matters is the here and now and what I am doing to grow and evolve beyond the current state of my mind and heart. With a teacher, a brother, or alone, I am a firm believer that whatever God has given us are the tools we should use to learn in that moment :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26477450 - 02/09/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I find humor :lol: and good wisdom along those conversation with marks bumpy but wonderful journey.

Quote:

PocketLady said:
We may not agree totally on this one but I really welcome your perspective :thumbup:

Reincarnation or what happens after death is ultimately all conjecture anyway, although it is very interesting to contemplate. I guess what really matters is the here and now and what I am doing to grow and evolve beyond the current state of my mind and heart. With a teacher, a brother, or alone, I am a firm believer that whatever God has given us are the tools we should use to learn in that moment :smile:




I Appreciate that radiated good vibes man :thumbup:
conjecture is the right word, inrespect of one of life's great wonderful mysteries. Its comforting beyond the texts that we all get a chance for realization and actualization to be with the DIVINE after the peaceful graduation. With that serene mind, what matters most is indeed The here and now.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 2
    #26477859 - 02/10/20 01:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Ya know, if there is not immortal soul, just a temporary temporal being who channels eternal consciousness idiosyncratically, the notion of thousands of years of rebirth or reincarnation or any other scheme of transmigration is meaningless. As to the "Transcendent Unity of Religions," I am still something of a fan of Fritjof Schuon's perspective wherein there is a singular Reality at the peak of a many-sided mountain.





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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26478037 - 02/10/20 07:00 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Ya know, if there is not immortal soul, just a temporary temporal being who channels eternal consciousness idiosyncratically, the notion of thousands of years of rebirth or reincarnation or any other scheme of transmigration is meaningless. As to the "Transcendent Unity of Religions," I am still something of a fan of Fritjof Schuon's perspective wherein there is a singular Reality at the peak of a many-sided mountain.








Mountains are a natural symbol of gathering together into one transcendental, unifying principle.  You find God communing with men at the top of mountains throughout the Bible.

The resurrected living Jesus Christ sits atop the mountain of reality itself.  The world is his footstool.

Jesus is the logic and intelligibility of God, the defining light by which the very world was created.  All things consist by Him.  He is the reason atoms persist instead of flying apart into chaos.  Jesus is the "Word", the immaterial, physically transcending organizing principle that holds reality together.

We see bits of that light reflected in all the world's religions, (as all humanity ultimately descend from the Image and Truth of God) but there is only one true source, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the crucified and risen Jesus.

It's a beautiful thing that our Creator God came down to earth to tabernacle with us in the flesh of Jesus to freely give us the truth.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26478608 - 02/10/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Ya know, if there is not immortal soul, just a temporary temporal being who channels eternal consciousness idiosyncratically, the notion of thousands of years of rebirth or reincarnation or any other scheme of transmigration is meaningless. As to the "Transcendent Unity of Religions," I am still something of a fan of Fritjof Schuon's perspective wherein there is a singular Reality at the peak of a many-sided mountain.








I think I subscribe to the idea of a soul personally. I like to think we get closer and closer to absolute unity with God, indefinitely, but to each their own. I am honestly no expert on Buddhism, but Daishi has explained a few times that the Buddha never actually said there was no Self/Soul. That idea comes from mistranslations apparently.

I love that diagram, that sums it up extremely well imho :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26481165 - 02/11/20 10:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

No, Buddhism is abundantly clear on the absence of a soul. What the Buddha did not do was to deny God. In fact I surmise that he took the Hindu term Nirguna Brahman (God without attributes, 'Nir' means absence) and developed that concept into Nirvana (from Sanskrit nirvāṇa, from nirvā ‘be extinguished’, from nis ‘out’ + vā- ‘to blow,' as if blowing out a flame [i.e., of desire]). Saguna Brahman is God with attributes as we find in other religions which attribute human characteristics to God whether compassionate or wrathful. Buddha did not want to discuss cosmology or creation of the universe, he said he was just teaching a method for the elimination of suffering.

It is not a doctrine that my ego prefers, but it is persistently logical. But this is my MBTI typology talking. Introverted Intuitive Thinking types will always go with what is logical at the expense of their Feeling function. It is particularly illogical for me to entertain anything but a unitary consciousness without memory, sensory input, or any identity connected to mental contents or the physical body and this is because of a pinnacle experience where all identity vanished except for a self-aware Clear Light of "Unbearable Compassion." There was no thought, no Mark, yet there was Limitless omniscient, formless, self-effulgent transparency. Obviously 'I' returned from this condition but I still surmise that it was as close to a post-mortem condition as is possible to experience in life. Moreover, it was ecstatic and timeless but every one of my descriptors here refers to a unitary seamless 'substance' as the ancients were fond of saying.

Ultimately this means that there ARE no separate 'souls' but that each one of us are the eyes, ears, etc. of ONE Being experiencing Him-Herself through us and it is that Eternal ONE who lends us an illusory sense of individuality. That individuality evaporates in death like a dream when the True Experiencer Awakens from the 'dream' of being you or me at death and once again assumes True Identity as The ONE. The recognition of Reality is God's, not our's. Buddhist say that we encounter our True Nature, but it is no longer 'us' it is God Awakening from His-Her experience OF us. I think this is the more accurate understanding of resurrection depicted by the Christian myth and not some future reanimation of a resurrection body in place of form. This might even be the deeper meaning in Jimi Hendrix's song when he asks "have you ever been experienced?...," i.e., having had the experience of being a being experienced by BEING Itself. Sorry, it's the best I can do with this paradox.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #26481514 - 02/12/20 07:32 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

All that makes sense, but you seem to be equating death with enlightenment unless I misunderstand...

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
That individuality evaporates in death like a dream when the True Experiencer Awakens from the 'dream' of being you or me at death and once again assumes True Identity as The ONE




Don't you think there are different "between life" stages, or no?


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Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: Forrester]
    #26481634 - 02/12/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think that we can, not that we invariably do Awaken at death. Our senses fail at the end, as in the Tibetan Book of the Dead when we feel heavy, can't move as the Earth element leaves, we thirst as the Water element leaves, we feel cold as the Fire element leaves, etc. and our mental faculties begin to degrade. I cannot say if the Transcendental Light dawns on our essential awareness despite the failing of our senses and mental faculties and the ensuing confusion and fear. 

The idea that we  as beings change and improve or devolve from life-to-life is something that I just read about again last night. The True Nature does not change, our intellect changes and improves if we are about learning. But our intellect, sems, the lower manas (mind) 'probably' perishes at death rather than entering a metaphysical 'store-house' (alayavijnana) consciousness. I say this because one would think if entire 'streams' of consciousness were preserved it would be far more common for children to be expressing recycled memories from a deceased 'donor.' Although one does read on the internet scary things children have said to their parents  like 'I used to be an old man...' Even so, recycled memories from someone who has died does not mean that we ARE a recycled memory fragment. Mind at the experiential level is not what defines us. Even if the Greeks were correct and Reason is the highest faculty of the human psyche, Reason is 'a' process of mind not 'our' reason any more than the water or calcium that make up our body is 'our' water and calcium. It too gets recycled.

I also read in another source (The Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelics and the Origins of the Vajrayana by Mike Crowley) that the Bardos are no different than psychedelic visions and stages that we go through on trips. Like most every other religious idea, psychological experiences are projected onto metaphysical backgrounds be they Heaven or the Clear Light (Rigpa) as 'objective places' to which 'we' go. Frankly, I do not Know but I choose not to 'believe' any doctrine. I had one powerful experience of pure consciousness long ago wherein Mark vanished but I cannot Know if that was 'It.' :shrug:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26481687 - 02/12/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

That's really interesting about the psychedelic experiences being compared to the Bardos.  I've always been completely lost as to how to classify some of the experiences I've had, knowing how real they felt but not wanting to over-inflate what could have been just short-circuiting synapses :lol:  So mostly I've just used them to remind me and get used to the idea that there is something different out there (in here) than what I'm used to.  Maybe that way at death there will be less fear to get in the way and cause such disorientation :shrug:


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: Forrester]
    #26481804 - 02/12/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Forrester said:
Maybe that way at death there will be less fear to get in the way and cause such disorientation :shrug:




:whathesaid: That really gets me from my last accidental trip. That i got a glimpse of the crossroads from my recent one.

Quote:

Mark vanished but I cannot Know if that was 'It.'


:lol:
Quote:

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it.’




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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26482407 - 02/12/20 06:00 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
No, Buddhism is abundantly clear on the absence of a soul. What the Buddha did not do was to deny God. In fact I surmise that he took the Hindu term Nirguna Brahman (God without attributes, 'Nir' means absence) and developed that concept into Nirvana (from Sanskrit nirvāṇa, from nirvā ‘be extinguished’, from nis ‘out’ + vā- ‘to blow,' as if blowing out a flame [i.e., of desire]). Saguna Brahman is God with attributes as we find in other religions which attribute human characteristics to God whether compassionate or wrathful. Buddha did not want to discuss cosmology or creation of the universe, he said he was just teaching a method for the elimination of suffering.

It is not a doctrine that my ego prefers, but it is persistently logical. But this is my MBTI typology talking. Introverted Intuitive Thinking types will always go with what is logical at the expense of their Feeling function. It is particularly illogical for me to entertain anything but a unitary consciousness without memory, sensory input, or any identity connected to mental contents or the physical body and this is because of a pinnacle experience where all identity vanished except for a self-aware Clear Light of "Unbearable Compassion." There was no thought, no Mark, yet there was Limitless omniscient, formless, self-effulgent transparency. Obviously 'I' returned from this condition but I still surmise that it was as close to a post-mortem condition as is possible to experience in life. Moreover, it was ecstatic and timeless but every one of my descriptors here refers to a unitary seamless 'substance' as the ancients were fond of saying.

Ultimately this means that there ARE no separate 'souls' but that each one of us are the eyes, ears, etc. of ONE Being experiencing Him-Herself through us and it is that Eternal ONE who lends us an illusory sense of individuality. That individuality evaporates in death like a dream when the True Experiencer Awakens from the 'dream' of being you or me at death and once again assumes True Identity as The ONE. The recognition of Reality is God's, not our's. Buddhist say that we encounter our True Nature, but it is no longer 'us' it is God Awakening from His-Her experience OF us. I think this is the more accurate understanding of resurrection depicted by the Christian myth and not some future reanimation of a resurrection body in place of form. This might even be the deeper meaning in Jimi Hendrix's song when he asks "have you ever been experienced?...," i.e., having had the experience of being a being experienced by BEING Itself. Sorry, it's the best I can do with this paradox.





[Most of] Buddhism might seem to be clear that there is no-self, but did the Buddha ever actually say it? Or is that idea based on assumptions made by others? I don't know myself, but it seems like there's a possibility that could be the case.

https://tricycle.org/magazine/there-no-self/

Thanks for sharing a bit more about your Samadhi experiences. It's really interesting. I have heard from more than one source that one can enter what seem to be very deep states of both seeded and seedless Samadhi, and feel like one has reached the ultimate, total union, but that still some residual unconscious clinging to ego remains, and that if one were ever to be in a state which comes very close to being truly free of ego, the physical body would no longer be able to be held and Mahasamadhi would occur.

Anyway, I seem to have got entangled in the very theoretical discussion I was actually trying to avoid and which the Buddha and many other teachers have warned against :lol: For me personally, as far as Buddhism is concerned, Vajrayana seems to be the closest to reaching the peak of the mountain, esoteric Buddhism if you will, and their ideas around reincarnation/the soul etc have always resonated a lot. I used to be a thinking type, now I feel like I am a lot more of a feeling type, so I tend to go with my gut these days :smile:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (02/12/20 07:11 PM)


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26483013 - 02/13/20 01:42 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Mahasamadhi occurs after a certain number of days (9?) with no water intake, or food, or sleep...from what I've read. The Infinite Expanse of "Unbearable Compassion" flipped into an Infinitesimal singularity of intensity in my Hridayam around which 'I' seemed to return. It later reminded me of Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa who is pierced by an angelic lance of ecstatic agapé. The Infinite, in "the twinkle of an eye" became the Infinitesimal and yet Infinitely large or Infinitesimally small, the qualifiers fall away to reveal Infinity. Lama Govinda wrote about 'the Complementariness of OM and HUM,' wherein OM is dissolving into the Infinite but in HUM the Infinite arising within the finite. "Solve et Coagula." I must have been absent to myself only for chronological moments and this occurred December 1974 but I remember it in its ineffability.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26485824 - 02/14/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

It sounds like a truly ineffable experience for sure. And yes, I don't think most of us are at risk of inadvertently Mahasamadhi-ing out of here, although I have heard stories of it happening to a few Realized beings. From what I understand, if you enter Samadhi and come back to tell the tale, then it probably wasn't the highest Samadhi and some ego still remained intact. Mahasamadhi meaning the 'great' Samadhi, after all. There's actually a story about a Realized Master who asked his wife what time dinner was every day. He told his wife that the day he stopped asking what time dinner was, he wouldn't be long for this world. One day he stopped asking his wife, and then next day, he 'died'.  It seems like the highest spiritual masters have to deliberately keep some hold of some attachments in order that they might actually stay here, because once those attachments are gone, they just can't hold on to their bodies to stay here to help us.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26490684 - 02/17/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I suppose I was thinking of the samadhis as 'lesser' than say Mahaparinirvana as in the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra and I may have misused the term Mahasamadhi, not intending it to mean the state that is co-extensive with after-death. Depending upon the school there are these differences. The samadhis 'with seed' are not difficult to elicit after lots of meditation experimentation and psychedelic experiences over decades.

I had previously experienced what I thought to have been Nirvikalpa samadhi in Patanjali's scheme and this occurred while lying down head due South in the late afternoon. At first I visualized the noonday Sun but actually found the internal image to be too much, too 'intimidating' [?], so I created the image of a clear 100 Watt incandescent light bulb. The imaged light began to hum and my entire body seemed to vibrate with yellow-white light. It was ecstatic but not egoless as I was still mentally and physically present to myself and I could feel a smile stretching my facial muscles taught. I then experienced bodily paralysis. A rush of fear-induced adrenaline shot through me in a second of panic, and that electric state subsided. But Nirvikalpa does come with physical rigidity. It is Sahaj samadhi, the natural samadhi that does not manifest these "hyper-pranic" conditions.

The disembodied, egoless Clear Light experience I attempted to describe may well have been a taste of Asamprajnata samadhi (not necessarily Dharma Megha Samadhi) although really, classifying samadhi experiences sounds a lot like proclaiming that "I am quite proud of my humility!" :lol:  https://dondeg.wordpress.com/2014/05/28/patanjalis-ten-types-of-samadhi/ ; It is humbling to die to oneself.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26490946 - 02/17/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I was reading "Man's Eternal Quest" a collection of talks and essays by paramahansaji, And as he claimed Jesus reincarnation theory, I Did'nt believe him, but I did ask myself, "who was Jesus before he was born?" the schizo voices in my head said "he was Elma", or so that's what it sounded like they said, I thought "Elma? could that be like elijah?" the voices said "don't worry about it, you'll understand soon enough." so I brush the thought aside, than a couple weeks later, I was at the library and I began to read a commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, it quickly came up that the word used to describe Mary was "Almah", it means young girl or young virgin if i'm not mistaken,,Elma? Almah? is not where and who Jesus was before he was born? sometimes the voices's blow my mind like that.


--------------------
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And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26492274 - 02/18/20 06:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Almah does mean young woman in Hebrew. Betholah is a separate Hebrew word for virgin. The Greek Septuagint that Matthew used only had one word for both 'maiden' and virgin, parthenos. That is how the Jewish prophesy about the Messiah in Isaiah 7:14 was mistranslated. Women do not give birth parthenogenically in Judaism, nor are children fathered by God. That was the Greek myth of demigods, one of the Pagan elements in Christianity.

I cannot comment on the content of your subjective voices other than to suggest taking what you perceive with 'a grain of salt.' You can be hearing random material and it would be a mistake to attribute revelatory meanings to such material, especially if you are experiencing "schizo voices" (audio hallucinations) due to a thought disorder.

I once bounced the notion of transmigration of Elijah into John the Baptizer (e.g., Matthew 11:14, Mark 9:13) off my late theology professor D.G. Leahy who insisted that it referred to a miraculous reappearance as part of God's plan and did not indicate an entire metaphysic of transmigration for everyone. The New Testament teaches a linear progression of time not "the myth of the eternal return." Catholic author Pierre Teilhard de Chardin wrote about the eventual transubstantiation of the entire universe into the 'Body of Christ' which he referred to as the "Omega Point." Our involvement in space-time is supposed to be one of voluntary participation not some Gnostic prison or a wheel of becoming from which we have to escape. Eastern notions of karma and transmigration are very mechanistic while a personal God acts through grace and providence. We also can change our untoward thoughts and the effects of wrongful deeds through seeking absolution with a sincerely contrite heart. Forgiveness is possible not just an implacable law of karma.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #26492326 - 02/18/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

but why would the commentary lie? now my bubble's popped!:grin: i'm going back to the library when I get back to the city next week, something's not right here, i'm 90% sure I read what I read.


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"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: saintdextro] * 2
    #26492396 - 02/18/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

What commentary? Paramahansa Yogananda's? He was a Hindu laying a Hindu idiom on a religion of the Levant! He was no expert on Judeo-Christian tradition but he was typical of Hindu thinkers who have always tried to subsume other religious figures into their metaphysics. Yogananda had his own agenda. Other than later rabbinic Judaism's gilgul, transmigration of a Jewish soul as a punishment for having not produced offspring, violating the commandment in Genesis 1:28 to "be fruitful and multiply," transmigration either as reincarnation or as rebirth has no place in Judaism or in its offshoot Christianity.

The doctrines of the transmigration and pre-existence of the soul were rejected in The Second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD, mostly in connection with the doctrines taught by the early Christian scholar named Origen. Yogananda mentioned this in his book. Poor Origen was a troubled soul who emasculated himself only to discover that the action did not cause his fantasies of dancing girls to cease. Modern data suggests that the adrenals can produce testosterone in castrate males.

Whereas transmigration serves to explain the inequalities of existence by the working of karma, it is a dismal doctrine suggesting countless rebirths full of the suffering of old age, sickness, and death before one is liberated from the wheel of becoming. And yet, from a Buddhist perspective there is no soul to transmigrate so how is one to resolve this blatant contradiction. At least the Hindu idiom is consistent. The problem is that all of these metaphysics exist simultaneously and it is not a matter of human choice which decides which single concept is the most accurate. What is one to do? :shrug:




POSTSCRIPT:  I just now retrieved my mail at 10:45 PM and a friend who visited recently, someone I haven't seen in 28 years sent my wife a gift and me 2 books. One of those books is entitled Beyond the Ashes: Cases of Reincarnation from the Holocaust, so I had to add on to this post because it is truly synchronistic! I will have to see what the author, Rabbi Yonassan Gershom has to say about this collision of cultures.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (02/18/20 11:28 PM)


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