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InvisiblePocketLady
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Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple * 2
    #26454240 - 01/26/20 09:37 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

I remember reading Autobiography of a Yogi and being really interested by the idea that there was some Guru/Disciple link between Jesus and John the Baptist, even in from past lifetimes. Here's a really interesting article that elaborates on that idea.


In Autobiography of a Yogi and other writings, Paramhansa Yogananda reveals the identity of Jesus Christ in a past life, and also of Jesus’ guru from that life. He discloses how Jesus met his guru again in his life as Jesus, but under unusual circumstances in a kind of role reversal!

Yogananda tells us that in their past lives, John the Baptist was the great prophet Elijah and Jesus was his foremost disciple, Elisha. He writes that by the time of their respective incarnations as Jesus and John, Jesus had attained Self-realization whereas John did so only at the end of that lifetime. The lesson Yogananda shares is one of divine friendship: how the disciple and guru remain in an eternal bond of soul helping soul.

This deeper understanding of Jesus’ life makes it clear that the Bible itself discloses that the doctrine of reincarnation was widely accepted by the Jewish people of ancient times, and by Jesus as well.

Elijah and Elisha in the Old Testament
The explanation Yogananda gives is not as difficult to discern from the Bible as it might seem at first.  Let us go back in time through the pages of the Bible to Kings II, Chapter 2. It is a brief chapter, and we read here that when Elijah the prophet became aware that he was soon to leave his body, he offered his disciple, Elisha, a boon, saying, in effect, “Ask what you want of me before I leave you.”

Elisha’s response shows the intensity of his spiritual quest, for without missing a beat, he responds, one imagines rather eagerly, “Let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me!”

Elijah withdraws into silence seeking the divine sanction necessary to grant such a request. Receiving it, Elijah sets one condition: “Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.” (Thereafter Elisha doesn’t let his guru out of his sight!)

When Elijah leaves his body, the Bible says that Elisha then took up Elijah’s “mantle,” which Yogananda explains was “his glory and his spiritual wealth.”  Soon thereafter, when the rest of Elijah’s disciples saw Elisha, they could see that “the spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha.” 1

“I will send you Elijah.”
Let us now move forward in time and in scripture to the closing words of the Old Testament by the prophet Malachi. We come upon the prophecy that the prophet Elijah would reincarnate as the messenger and herald of the Messiah: “Behold, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” 2

Yogananda writes that the word “before” refers to the fact that John the Baptist would be born just ahead of Jesus. John’s work of preparing people for the coming of the Messiah also began before Jesus’ public ministry.

“Filled with the Holy Ghost”
At last we arrive to the incarnations of Jesus and John the Baptist. In the New Testament it is said that an angel conveyed a similar prophecy to Zacharias, father of the soon-to-be-conceived child, John the Baptist.

The angel tells Zacharias that he would have a son who would be “filled with the Holy Ghost,” would turn many people “to the Lord their God,” and would “go before him in the spirit and power of Elias…” (The Greek translators of the New Testament spelled “Elijah” as “Elias.”)3

Yogananda cites these two accounts of the prophecy, along with the passages discussed below, to show that the Jews of the Old Testament, and at the time of Christ, accepted the doctrine of reincarnation without hesitation.

Indeed, by the time Jesus appeared on earth, every Jew, lettered or unlettered, knew of the prophecy and was eagerly awaiting Elijah’s return as heralding the coming of the Messiah.

John denies he was Elijah
Thus, when John the Baptist appeared on the scene and began to develop a following, various Jewish priests went to John to ask if he was the Messiah. John replied, “I am not the Christ.”

They then asked him point blank, “What then, are you Elias?”  And as the New Testament reports, John denied that he was Elias.4

Yogananda tells us that John could not yet recollect his prior life as Elijah. To achieve final liberation, John led an austere life of penance, prayer, and solitude.

“In the name of righteousness”
Yogananda explains that although Jesus was now “perfected in divine realization” and had surpassed his guru, he nonetheless sought John’s blessing through baptism by water at the start of his public work.

When John protested that he was not worthy, Jesus replied that his baptism should be permitted in the name of “righteousness”—meaning in acknowledgement of their eternal bond as disciple and guru.

Afterwards, the voice of the unseen Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, affirmed Jesus’ divine stature and blessed him also.5

Jesus confirms that John was Elijah (Elias)
Some time after the baptism, John the Baptist, who was by then in prison, sent two of his disciples to interview Jesus and to ask him to be more specific as to his identity. After the interview, as John’s disciples were preparing to leave, Jesus spoke to those around him.

Jesus began by praising John the Baptist’s high spiritual stature. Then he announced that the prophets and scriptures of old had all prophesied about John, adding boldly, “And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for(told) to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”6

That last comment was a “Listen up” to those who could understand what Jesus was really saying. In other words, “I’m not going to spell it out for you but John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elias as foretold by Malachi.”

“His face did shine as the sun”
Jesus’ thinly veiled declaration as to John’s identity was repeated after his transfiguration on Mt. Tabor. John the Baptist was now dead, killed by King Herod.

In the transfiguration, Jesus appeared to three of his closest disciples in his luminous astral body, (“His face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”) He appeared in the company of Moses and Elias (similarly “attired”).

Afterwards, as Jesus and the disciples descended the mountain, it was natural for the disciples, armed with this latest and most dramatic confirmation of Jesus’ role as the Messiah, to ask: “Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?”7 In other words, “If you’re the Messiah, where’s Elias?”

Jesus’ reply to the disciples’ question is astonishingly simple — and unequivocal. He says that Elias has indeed come:

And Jesus answered and said unto them, “. . . I say unto you, that Elias is    come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall the Son of Man suffer of them.” Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.8

Jesus was also reminding those who “had ears to hear” of the prophecy that his own body would similarly suffer at the hands of ignorant people.

Yogananda writes that John’s appearance with Jesus on Mt. Tabor in the form of his guru, Elias, signified that John, by his death at the hands of Herod, had achieved final liberation.  Interestingly, it was to Elias that Jesus cried out from the cross. (See sidebar below)

Thus it is that the Indian scriptures aver that the eternal bond of divine friendship between guru and disciple is the greatest blessing in the “three worlds.”

Terry McGilloway and his wife, Padma, serve as acharyas (spiritual directors) for Ananda Seattle.


The Great Ones Unite — Jesus, Elias, and Moses
by Paramhansa Yogananda


The appearance of Elias and Moses on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus reveals that the Heavenly Father has a special message for the world through their united lives. I have pointed out that Elias or Elijah was no other than the guru of Jesus’’ former incarnation as Elisha.

The guru and the true disciple form a act of unconditional love and try to help each other through incarnations until final liberation is reached. Elias and Jesus had been in touch with each other in many incarnations, unknown to man.

Elias’ transfigured appearance on Mt. Tabor signified that John the Baptist had achieved final liberation by his death at the hands of King Herod. He appeared to Jesus in his former role as his guru, Elias, to give him strength to overcome without difficulty the great ordeal of death on the cross. It was to Elias, his guru, that Jesus cried our on the cross.

The united presence of Moses and Jesus on the mount of transfiguration was a divine beacon installed by God to shine through future ages to dissolve the clannish differences between His Jewish and Christian children. Modern Jews, therefore, should take heed and establish their brotherhood with Christians.

Endnotes:
1) Kings II, 2:9-15
2) Malachi 4:5
3) Luke 1:15-17
4) John 1:20-21
5) Mathew 3:11-17
6) Mathew 11:1-15
7) Mathew 17:1-13
8) Mathew 17:11-13
9) Mathew 17:46


https://www.ananda.org/blog/jesus-elijah-yoga-yogananda/


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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InvisibleBayerPhi
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26454245 - 01/26/20 09:44 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

:threadmonitor:
Too tired to read now, will be back.


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Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε

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:chemistry: Stains, Reagents, and Media :alert:

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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: BayerPhi]
    #26454787 - 01/27/20 09:00 AM (4 years, 2 days ago)

me too, awesome thanks~!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
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OfflineForresterM
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: Forrester]
    #26458948 - 01/29/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Very interesting, makes me want to finish reading that book!  I'm like half way through it and got distracted...

Have you ever heard of Jesus and the Essenes by Dolores Cannon?  It's got some pretty interesting info on the life and times of Jesus, if you're open to channeled material.


--------------------
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
-------------------

Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them?  Try this double extraction method.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 2
    #26460489 - 01/30/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Autobiography of a Yogi was one of the last books I read at the end of my undergrad studies, the last semester. It prompted me to read a modern paperback version of the New Testament. In my immediate post-graduate void, working briefly in a factory then as a driver for an electrical supply store, I went through a Catholic catechism, took baptism, considered a monastic vocation, but instead entered a United Methodist seminary and took a Masters in Theological Studies degree. Now mind you, I graduated from seminary in 1978 and a year later I went off to graduate school, but I have had decades to process these trips. But I digress.

Hopefully you will not be offended by the following, but Yogananda had an agenda: (1) to espouse a Yoga philosophy in the West and (2) he also had a typically Hindu agenda which seeks to absorb the tenets of other religions into itself or to interpret, in this case, Hebrew midrashic writings through a Hindu idiom. It was all very intriguing for me to do this kind of mental gymnastic because the biblical stories had become fossilized and irrelevant for me at that point of my life. The yogic treatment injected new life into the old forms and they began to live again for me. Unfortunately, that reanimation was not legitimate. Like Stephen King's book Pet Semetary, when reanimation occurs the form may appear the same but the animating force itself is something quite alien and sometimes sinister. The Hindu idioms which reanimated the biblical material for me, if not exactly sinister, were alien to the intention of the authors of the Tenach (Old Testament) and the Haftarah (Prophets). For this reason I now deem the interpretation inaccurate to the point of them being dishonest. The only legitimate exegesis of religious writings (any religious writings) must come from within its own tradition. One cannot legitimately apply a metaphysical system from outside a given tradition. One must ask what the writer's intentions were.

Hindu interpretations of Hebrew writings is not an intellectually legitimate enterprise. Some Hindu thinkers have  recognized Iesous but not as the early Christians saw Him, nor even as the Talmudic Jewish opposition did (in a derogatory way), but as one more Self-Realized avatar in their enormous lexicon of Realized Masters. Buddhists have sometimes regarded Iesous as a great Bodhisattva, but not as a Fully Enlightened Buddha. He was neither of course because neither term belongs to the tradition in which he developed out of. Yogananda's Hindu treatment of Iesous is a sort of spiritual one-upmanship which marginalizes the uniqueness of Iesous within the historical milieu He was said to have arisen from. It's been decades since I read the book but I think he cited the Fifth Ecumenical Council (553 AD) held in Constantinople as the point where reincarnation was decisively rejected from orthodox Christian doctrine. There is some truth to this but the metaphysics of historical religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) have a linear model of time and this actually resonates with modern cosmology. The cyclical metaphysics of Hinduism, an acosmic religion, contains cycles within cycles with the entire universe being created, reabsorbed and created again ad infinitum. The idea of resurrection is one of transformation rather than "eternal return."

One cannot ignore that Hindu upstart Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha, who denied the existence of a permanent soul (the Bible Never says we have an 'immortal soul' anywhere) that reincarnates. What is reborn are psychic constituents that are dissolved at death and recycled into other human beings but it is not like our intact 'soul' transmigrates from one body to another like the Symbiont in the TV show 'Deep Space Nine,' that slug-like entity living inside of Jadzia Dax! Most people want to settle on a myth or metaphysic and live it out AS IF it reflects Reality for everyone at every place and time. I find myself necessarily highlighting the gross inconsistencies in world religions and consequently acknowledging along with Socrates and contrary to my tag here that "All I know is that I know nothing" regarding how it all is. Like Robert Anton Wilson, “I don't believe anything, but I have many suspicions.”


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 2
    #26468681 - 02/04/20 02:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your input Markos. I am not silly enough to get into an intellectual debate with you on this :grin: But what I will say is that from where I am standing, it doesn't really matter who came from what tradition, and the language and terms we use to describe everything. All of this is based in the conceptual mind which likes to compartmentalize everything, and in spiritual terms, that mind is the very thing which keeps us from knowing the true spiritual state ourselves. I feel that Yogananda was not trying to absorb Christianity into Hinduism, but instead trying to get us to see that it does not matter whether you are Hindu, Jewish, Christian, whatever, the heart of the process is the same. It's what all great teachers have tried to tell us. The ego likes to separate and make distinctions between things, whereas spirit creates union. People are built the same whether they are from the East or the West, so it makes sense that the process towards self-realization would be the same, although with cultural and nomenclatural differences.

Oh, and I love that R.A.W quote. That is one of my most overused quotes ever! It's true we can no nothing by using the intellectual mind, but I suspect that there is a deeper wisdom and knowing which lies beyond it.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26468723 - 02/04/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I choose Universal Spirituality over Organized religion framings now-a-days.

Religion compartmentalizes and further culturalizes more universal truths.
It obscures a universal message that can be more easily stated in plain language.

There are no gurus/Gods among men.
Just human beings expressing their experiences.

In that are often many others (less popular) who have often said/expressed the same thing.
So, what's the TL;DR without the religious backdrop?


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26468757 - 02/04/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I think most spiritual teachers will tell you, they have no religion. I agree that religion is a framework that is unnecessary for people who are trying to find real truth. For a very long time it seems like much religion has basically been a control mechanism and a means to teach people moral ideas through dogma, but that's not to say there is no truth in any of it. The inner truths have been hidden and disguised within the outer teachings imho.

The basic premise of this post is that there is evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and a link between Jesus and John the Baptist in a student/teacher relationship in the Old and New Testaments. Whether you want to believe in the role of the teacher in spiritual development is up to you, and sadly the idea of the Teacher/Guru has been distorted by those who lack authenticity. I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469134 - 02/04/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I think most spiritual teachers will tell you, they have no religion. I agree that religion is a framework that is unnecessary for people who are trying to find real truth. For a very long time it seems like much religion has basically been a control mechanism and a means to teach people moral ideas through dogma, but that's not to say there is no truth in any of it. The inner truths have been hidden and disguised within the outer teachings imho.

The basic premise of this post is that there is evidence of reincarnation in the Bible, and a link between Jesus and John the Baptist in a student/teacher relationship in the Old and New Testaments. Whether you want to believe in the role of the teacher in spiritual development is up to you, and sadly the idea of the Teacher/Guru has been distorted by those who lack authenticity. I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'




Reincarnation is more of an eastern concept that is far more refined in such a context.
Trying to carve this out in the bible which never presents and intelligible framing is weird and a rather strained route to work with this concept. The best Guru is respective the plurality/infinitude of the cosmos and worker to gather as much experience/perspective as you can. Listening more than speaking until you've reached a certain point. Respecting things until you understand and transcend them.


Quote:

PocketLady said:
but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy.




This is nearly impossible in organized religion because it isn't authentic/raw.
It can help you as training wheels do until you can discern and discard the unauthentic portions. The belief can train your mind and stretch it. There's value in organized religion/religion. However, towards spiritual realms you have transcended it. Even with reincarnation being far more detailed in Eastern religions. It is a concept you can speak of spiritual outside of a religious context.


Quote:

PocketLady said:
I personally don't think it's about being a god, but about learning from someone who has already found the very thing I am seeking, but you have to find an authentic teacher  which is not always easy. Trying to find Realization without a teacher is like trying to become a brain surgeon or a virtuoso musician without a teacher. But, my view hasn't always been that way. A few years ago I would have scoffed at the idea of having a spiritual teacher. As they say, 'When the student is ready, the teacher appears.'




My understanding is that you get out what you put in. If you craft a lot of this yourself and dedicate serious time to the truth, you will eventually grasp it. If you seek shortcuts via a heavy reliance on a Guru/teacher/philosopher, you will only ultimately achieve their limited scoping of the world and will be quite narrowed to it. I've formed most of my spiritual understanding beyond religion by talking to 1000s of people, listening, integrating, comparing, researching, debating, disagreeing, finding lies, traveling to obscure niches, respectfully considering all possibilities and then working on a transcendent framing beyond this collection.

I could have focused on a handful of Gurus that framed spiritual but in that I would be over reliant on their conclusions. This 'limit' works for most. It doesn't work for a person in search of something far and beyond prior 'Gurus' work.. An originator/A person who wants to discover something new. Because in order to that you must first respectfully learn, grasp teaching, but then know when and welcome the point when you transcend it. You have to have a certain disrespect for respectable things... and that's not the flavor of most pursuits.

So, Jesus/John the baptist .. eternal bond/Guru/disciple.. Reincarnation in a western framing.. These are quite foreign and weird ideas to me... Far from the more raw truth of the cosmos... I can define a single Eastern religion that transcends this whole stretch... and even that should be transcended. But this is ultimately why, in order to get to spirituality, you should respectfully consume/understand a wealth of religions from around the world and learn from prior establishment.

Jesus was a metaphor.
A completely twisted versioning of a Judaic concept to fork a new universal religion and in that came the lies and confusion that this character is premised on. Once you transcend Christianity and respectfully visit the religion its premised on, you get beyond the Jesus Guru praise. Once that occurs, you get beyond western religion.. Likely go on to far more spiritual eastern religion. Once you grasp eastern religion/theology, you are primed for more raw spirituality. A guru can tv dinner package this for you but can never deliver the knowledge/wisdom/depth gained from putting in the hard ground work.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26469155 - 02/04/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I really do appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this. The thing is, I've had a personal spiritual teacher for more than 6 years, after searching many years under my own steam. It totally changed my life. In fact that is a huge understatement. I've had incredible perspective changing experiences which go beyond anything I ever dreamed were possible. So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect. I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with :peace:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469172 - 02/04/20 08:11 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I really do appreciate your sharing your thoughts on this. The thing is, I've had a personal spiritual teacher for more than 6 years, after searching many years under my own steam. It totally changed my life. In fact that is a huge understatement. I've had incredible perspective changing experiences which go beyond anything I ever dreamed were possible. So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect. I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with :peace:





>  So, I guess we each must go by what life has taught us in that respect
>  I'm not here to get into heavy philosophical debates, because I believe spirituality is something which must be directly experienced by the individual. I'm merely here to share things that some other people might resonate with

And similarly, I am only here to express my experience beyond this and as I do in this state-space scrutinize a beaten path for it is my experience and comfort in doing so.

In comparison, I never have consulted a spiritual guide or guru. Instead, I talked/debated and hashed it out with 'regular' people and followed up on information provided therein. Not a practice suited for most but indeed where a person grasps enough to establish something new and move the ball forward for humanity.

There's the more human aspect of spirituality that gives you the warm fuzzy on a day to day...
And then there's the more chaotic realm of exploration. I speak more from this as it is my perspective/experience.

The warm fuzzy is a given as I am a human being and have found a peace of sorts.
I simply longed and went in search of something beyond the human experience.

It's a lonely road seemingly. I gained a lot of my basis from earlier conversations here but as of late it seems things are more about the human experience/enrichment therein vs the more chaotic/cosmic framing of 'spirituality'.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26469211 - 02/04/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

This place was a real learning platform for me too a few years ago, and I know what you mean about it being a lonely road, that's for sure. That's one of the reasons having a teacher and belonging to a group has been so beneficial for me. Ultimately, they cannot do the work for me, but it sure is nice to know there are other people who can relate to what I am going through. Authentic spirituality is a long and treacherous road. I guess it depends on what the ultimate aim of the journey is. For me, it's complete Realization, the permanent uncovering of and residing in the space beyond the small mind where suffering no longer exists, where I can truly live for others instead of living for myself. I don't consider myself to be Christian by any stretch, but I do feel the Bible contains much wisdom when interpreted in the right way:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

That space I am trying to find, it's like trying to hit a bullseye, and I don't think I am going to find it by following my instincts and my mind. My mind is what has repeatedly gotten me into trouble in the first place. Only someone who has been there, who has the map and knows the way, knows the tricks of the mind, can help me. If it were as easy as just following my nose, it seems like there should be a whole bunch of Enlightened people wandering around this planet, and sadly, that doesn't appear to be the case. That's just my perspective anyway.


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26469428 - 02/04/20 10:56 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
This place was a real learning platform for me too a few years ago, and I know what you mean about it being a lonely road, that's for sure. That's one of the reasons having a teacher and belonging to a group has been so beneficial for me. Ultimately, they cannot do the work for me, but it sure is nice to know there are other people who can relate to what I am going through. Authentic spirituality is a long and treacherous road. I guess it depends on what the ultimate aim of the journey is. For me, it's complete Realization, the permanent uncovering of and residing in the space beyond the small mind where suffering no longer exists, where I can truly live for others instead of living for myself. I don't consider myself to be Christian by any stretch, but I do feel the Bible contains much wisdom when interpreted in the right way:

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14

That space I am trying to find, it's like trying to hit a bullseye, and I don't think I am going to find it by following my instincts and my mind. My mind is what has repeatedly gotten me into trouble in the first place. Only someone who has been there, who has the map and knows the way, knows the tricks of the mind, can help me. If it were as easy as just following my nose, it seems like there should be a whole bunch of Enlightened people wandering around this planet, and sadly, that doesn't appear to be the case. That's just my perspective anyway.




The majority are unenlightened and no where on the path to be simply due to their personal choices and valuations.
Life has many entrapments. It is far easier to lend oneself to them. A spiritual guide or many can't lift people out of this self-willed paralysis. Religion broadly did this with spiritual training wheels and even it in modern times has faded. Further, so have many 'gurus' because the body of knowledge they work on is dated and already perceived by people. People know how to live in the moment broadly already. They already know they can manipulate reality and their sensibilities and do so quite often. They already know they can manipulate their sexuality, etc. They are covered in spiritual symbolism and are well read. They just simply choose, when equipped with this to pursue or more materialistic life.

Along the spiritual path, indeed one's ultimate aim determines the lengths and nature of their strides and understanding. For the majority, an augmented peace beyond the physical world and a sense of purpose/direction in the physical +a sense of the after-life is sufficient.. This is what religion predominately provides. If this is the ultimate aim of one's spiritual pursuits, this is what most adherents to religions are doing and why it always has existed. Something beyond that is what I seek and others, this is where the hard personal work begins as you're in uncharted territory... There are no 'Gurus' .. Only nomads who you can compare notes with. There's no community in this group... Everyone's out crisis crossing the spiritual frontier. Interaction is sparse and fleeting and this is fine. This is what you sign up for in such pursuits.


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InvisiblePocketLady
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26469444 - 02/04/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I feel like the point of a spiritual teacher is not to teach from outdated scripture, but to bring a refreshed and updated version of the teachings for the current generation. But if that is what makes sense to you, that there are no Gurus, then who am I to argue with that? It doesn't fit my own experience though. I could tell you some of my experiences but I don't think it would make much difference, because it can never compare to actually doing it oneself. There is no real way to communicate that. It can only be experienced directly and debating about it doesn't really do much good imho. That's why I just try to share things that others might be interested in, and people are free to think whatever they like about it :smile:


Edited by PocketLady (02/04/20 11:47 PM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady] * 1
    #26469561 - 02/05/20 01:25 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PocketLady said:
I feel like the point of a spiritual teacher is not to teach from outdated scripture, but to bring a refreshed and updated version of the teachings for the current generation. But if that is what makes sense to you, that there are no Gurus, then who am I to argue with that? It doesn't fit my own experience though. I could tell you some of my experiences but I don't think it would make much difference, because it can never compare to actually doing it oneself. There is no real way to communicate that. It can only be experienced directly and debating about it doesn't really do much good imho. That's why I just try to share things that others might be interested in, and people are free to think whatever they like about it :smile:



As you were... Watched the video you posted of a 'guru' type in another thread and I have to say I couldn't even make it through 5 minutes. There were so many misinformed statements... pseudo-science. Completely ridiculous framing of ego and outright bad and dangerous advice that it was unstably amateur and disorienting.

Just because you have had some life experiences doesn't make you a Guru.
There are far too many unenlightened posers in this field and its quite frankly dangerous as hell the kind of advice they give packaged as some form of spiritual enlightenment... They don't even produce basic sound advice.

They're on level 2 of 100 of enlightenment, self declared gurus, and trying to advise people on spiritual enlightenment.

This is what leads to foolishness like :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_the_Kool-Aid


In my current state, I can gain more enlightenment jacking off than getting my head scrambled by one of these gurus.
Lastly, there's nothing that is spiritually enlightened that can't be described in general and basic language as I have already done in this thread.

Misinterpreting the hierarchy and inter-relationship between awareness and ego is a classic and detrimental mistake.
Misidentifying and misframing ego is another huge one. There's talks from Terrance McKenna and and Alan watts that blow the doors off any of this tv-dinner self-declared Guru foolishness and path therein and neither of those individuals would even dare call themselves Gurus...

In fact :
Be your own Guru

and note how he respectfully refers to established teachings from another individual.

If you go for tv dinner gurus you'll likely be on their program for years. Any real guru will teach you in short order how to be your own Guru and then highlight : there are no Gurus. So, if the goal here is to highlight actual 'Guru' level information, I'll make sure to continue post actually sound spiritual advice .. Not from a Guru but a spiritual nomad broadly covering established spiritual knowledge.

Also, not to point out something close to home but I too live in California and the whole state is overrun with bullshit Gurus/retreats/spiritual industry. Especially Socal.. I'm up in Norcal where's there's far less of this b.s and moreso actual eastern immigrants who bring with them religion/eastern theology. Fitting with the landscape and nature of California, everyone's looking for some golden ticket retreat or fix me up to fuel them to thrive in a spiritually abusive backdrop and its tiresome.

This is the kind of commercialized bullshit I think about when I think of Gurus/spirituality in socal :


Literally copy/pasta'ng eastern theology and hawking it to locals who don't know any better at a pretty premium.
This is the reason why where are so many cults that spin out of socal... It's predatory and falsely framed as is the nature of the environment.

Alan watts :
School
• Zen Buddhism
• Hinduism
• Pantheism
• Panentheism
• Christianity
• religious naturalism
• Taoism

Essentially Eastern theology/religion.
*sigh*

Meanwhile in TV-dinner guru land :
Drukama Treasury™ shares profound esoteric and mystical revelations to help spiritual seekers understand the authentic mysteries of Meditation, Self-Realization, and Liberation.
Unlock the Treasury™ at https://www.patreon.com/drukama

:closecall:


Edited by r00tcmplx (02/05/20 01:37 AM)


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26470334 - 02/05/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.

When Joshua was conquering the Promised Land, tearing down the walls of Jericho, it was a picture of Jesus conquering the believers' heart and the walls we build between ourselves and the love of God.

Just as Jesus, following his baptism in the Jordan River, is lead into the wilderness to be tested for 40 days... the same as Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness following their baptism in the Red Sea.

In the pages of the Bible, the truth of what reality actually is, is constantly being presented to us in these various micro/macrocosm narratives.  Reality is anchored around Jesus - The Word/Logos/Logic/Intelligibility of God, and how we choose to interact with it. 

As a final demonstration of His power, God came down onto the Cross to die for us.  Just as Samson single-handedly ripped open the heavy gates of the Phillistines and marched up the mountain in victory,  Jesus willingly descended into the grave only to completely obliterate death, and forge a pathway for us back up into eternal life with our Creator.

His tomb is empty to this day. 

Now it's up to us whether or not we want to follow Him out and finally be free.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: saved7]
    #26470415 - 02/05/20 02:27 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saved7 said:
Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.




Jesus is a metaphor. Before even Judiasm existed there were religions 1000s of years older with prominent figures just like 'Jesus'. Should I be an absolute idiot and not believe in the conceptual framing that existed before someone copy/pasta'd it into their religion? Yet believe in the copy/pasta'd version that came 1000s of years later? You take me for a fool? A blind believer? A fearful person who thinks I have to believe in some desert religion or else I'll go to hell? Give me a break... If you have truth/wisdom, share it... But spare me the bedtime stories...


Quote:

saved7 said:
When Joshua was conquering the Promised Land, tearing down the walls of Jericho, it was a picture of Jesus conquering the believers' heart and the walls we build between ourselves and the love of God.

Just as Jesus, following his baptism in the Jordan River, is lead into the wilderness to be tested for 40 days... the same as Israel was tested 40 years in the wilderness following their baptism in the Red Sea.

In the pages of the Bible, the truth of what reality actually is, is constantly being presented to us in these various micro/macrocosm narratives.  Reality is anchored around Jesus - The Word/Logos/Logic/Intelligibility of God, and how we choose to interact with it. 

As a final demonstration of His power, God came down onto the Cross to die for us.  Just as Samson single-handedly ripped open the heavy gates of the Phillistines and marched up the mountain in victory,  Jesus willingly descended into the grave only to completely obliterate death, and forge a pathway for us back up into eternal life with our Creator.

His tomb is empty to this day. 

Now it's up to us whether or not we want to follow Him out and finally be free.



Pass.. spare me the bible sermons. I'm over it.


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Offlinesaved7
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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26471583 - 02/06/20 07:19 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:
Quote:

saved7 said:
Jesus appeared in many types and shadows throughout the Old Testament.




Jesus is a metaphor. Before even Judiasm existed there were religions 1000s of years older with prominent figures just like 'Jesus'. Should I be an absolute idiot and not believe in the conceptual framing that existed before someone copy/pasta'd it into their religion? Yet believe in the copy/pasta'd version that came 1000s of years later? You take me for a fool? A blind believer? A fearful person who thinks I have to believe in some desert religion or else I'll go to hell? Give me a break... If you have truth/wisdom, share it... But spare me the bedtime stories...




And yet in all of the religious pantheon of history there is nothing else like the eyewitness testimony of Jesus in the New Testament.

Usually myths and legends take centuries to permeate the culture, yet right there in history we have people choosing martyrdom, willing to die over what they claimed to directly witness... Jesus walking amongst them, doing miracles throughout the towns and cities, outwitting the greatest religious authorities of the time with ease, dying on the cross, being buried, and coming back to life, leaving an empty tomb that has mystified scholars ever since.

You want Jesus to be just another claim amongst an ocean of religious claims, because that would make it easier to deny, but the simple fact is that He is not.  There is nothing like the claimed eyewitness testimonies of Jesus Christ anywhere else.  There is simply nothing else to compare it to.

Here's the story of a former atheist who spent years trying to disprove the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is now a believer.  It's the same story for anyone who approaches this subject honestly with a desire for the truth.  The more you look, the more you begin to realize it is actually true.

Lee Strobel - The Case For Christ
(Presentation starts at 13 minute mark)


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: PocketLady]
    #26473724 - 02/07/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Tldr: great share. :thumbup: while im more of a ressurection guy rather than reincarnation. I admire your goin deep interms of the scriptures.

My summary interms of it.
Quote:

Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Hebrews 11:11



Despite old age through faith isaac was born.


Quote:

But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.Luke 1:13



Similarly Through faith despite Elisabeth being a barren & old - John was born. If we read further in the endnotes.


Quote:

And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:16-17



Note: the spirit and power of Elijah before him, Being guided by.

Just as Elisha being the first companion of Elijah, before Prophet Elijah was taken by GOD. Elisha wished that the Spirit of Elijah be with him.
So as with Elisha after obtaining the robe of Elijah Was granted with the might & spirit of Elijah. 2 kings 2-9:15

Elisha being the first man who was guided by the Spirit of Elijah thus exclude reincarnation in a sense of being reborn thru a belly.. So as When John  was born, it is written in the scripture that he will be guided by the spirit and might of Elijah. This concluceds that John was not elijah but was guided by the Spirit of elijah.

Quote:

And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:14-17




Endnote:
Reincarnation interms of Eg. The Imbecile(pardon the word) that claim a reincarnation of some sort angel/prophet/apostles. Even the Worse a single man proclaiming to be Jesus and preaching thy word(for the sake of money) - and unfortunately some ending in a disaster.

Its no wonder that those kind of self proclaimed teachers/pastor/gurus/reverend/priest/bishops along their names are forewarned in the sciptures specially during this times.


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Re: Jesus and John the Baptist: The Eternal Bond of Guru and Disciple [Re: pacmanbreed] * 2
    #26473808 - 02/07/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for your thoughts :thumbup: It's interesting to contemplate whether historically there was a belief in reincarnation. Seems like there is evidence that could go either way in the Bible.

It's true the Bible does specifically warn against false prophets. I think that's sadly the problem that we are faced with today. There are some amazing genuine spiritual teachers out there imho (I think Yogananda was one of them personally), but the false ones give the whole idea of a student/teacher relationship a bad rap. The issue is with discernment, which is not easy in these confusing times. I always feel like the genuine ones hit me in the face, but I know there are countless people tithing to fake pastors, or being sexually assaulted/mislead by fake gurus, ending up in cults etc. May we have the clarity and wisdom to know the difference :sun:


--------------------
Love is from the infinite, and will remain until eternity.
The seeker of love escapes the chains of birth and death.
Tomorrow, when resurrection comes,
The heart that is not in love will fail the test.

~ Rumi



The day we start giving Love instead of seeking Love, we will have re-written our whole destiny.
~ Swami Chinmayanada Saraswatir


Edited by PocketLady (02/07/20 12:09 PM)


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