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 oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 1,205
Loc: Space is the Place
Last seen: 2 years, 30 days
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 Sourdough 
#26453843 - 01/26/20 04:34 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Any other bakers, or sourdough cultivators?
Anyways if anyone wants to share recipes I make pizza weekly with a 7-10 day ferment, and sourdough bread almost every other week.
If anyone needs advice or wants to maybe swap or get a sample of a starter let me know!
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The Influence
Free Sheeks
Registered: 03/30/11
Posts: 6,067
Loc: Not Wisconsin
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Have looked into making sourdough, but have never followed through. My favorite bun for a burger and second favorite bread next to a pumpernickel rye. You make sourdough pizza crust?
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 1,205
Loc: Space is the Place
Last seen: 2 years, 30 days
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Yes, sourdough pizza crust is so great. Nice not having to buy bakers yeast too
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Nephedryn
Apothecary
Registered: 11/29/18
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Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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How do you make a starter culture for sour dough? I'm recently getting into ferments and am practicing with a batch of ginger beer right now.
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
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Loc: Space is the Place
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Easiest starter recipe and all I use. Equal parts water to flour. Can use any weight/measure, just do equal parts water to flour.
I've used white flour in the past, but rye just like our beloved grain teks, is the best flour for starter.
Day 1: 25 grams flour + 25 grams water (stir till mixed)
Day 2: 12-24 hours later remove 1/2 and toss; keep 1/2 and mix equal parts flour water.
Repeat till it doubles in 4-6 hours.
Usually on day 2-3 I remember starter growing but not quiet doubling, usually kinda stalls out for a few days then by a week to 2 you have this bubbly delish smelling concoction that will rise/double in a very predicted way.
Your capturing the natural yeast in the air/flour, and eventually they will act as a culture allowing nothing else to colonize your medium (flour and water!)
TLDR; take equal parts flour water, stir till liquid cement. Next day remove half of this mixture and add back equal parts flour/water.
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NicodArleone
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Registered: 12/31/19
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Quote:
Nephedryn said:
How do you make a starter culture for sour dough? I'm recently getting into ferments and am practicing with a batch of ginger beer right now.
You can use natural fermentation but there are also sourdough starter kits that you can buy.
I would also recommend using your own milled berries for flour as many store bought brands will not work with sourdough(too many preservatives).
Edited by NicodArleone (01/29/20 08:52 AM)
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 koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,703
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I generally bake between 1 and 4 sourdough breads per week. My gf was gifted a culture about a year and a half ago and I've been keeping it around since then, feeding it every day or every other day. Works quite well, but it obviously takes more time than a regular yeast dough.
We prefer a yeast dough for pizza, but sourdough for loaves.
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oculodextro
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Re: Sourdough [Re: koraks]
#26460466 - 01/30/20 03:11 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Wanna trade pizza recipes?
I was doing a 5-7 day ferment with minimal yeast. Was great, but since I switched over to pure sourdough, I've really made what I consider a clean and healthy pizza.
The thing that people don't understand is most commercial breads are full of preservatives and rushed through production.
Think about it this way, you either make doughs in one hour (all you're bakery shit).
Or you allow the natural yeasts to ferment/digest all the tough fibers/proteins your body naturally cannot digest.
There's a resurgence of sourdough for "gluten intolerant" people. Motherfuckers don't have a gluten problem, your intestines would be falling out your asshole, you have an issue digesting a shitty-shit product that might as well be cardboard.
Bread rant over 
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Bowman
ranger
Registered: 01/18/20
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I use a bread machine to make pizza dough. Add in this order:
1 cup sourdough starter (50/50 flour/water)
1 2/3 cups warm water
2 tsp salt
2 tbsp sugar
2 tbsp olive oil
1/2 cup light rye flour
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
4 cups all-purpose flour
1 tsp instant yeast (some members of the household don't like the fully soured flavour)
Divide dough into 4 and shape into rounds, preheat oven at 550, let rise until oven is hot.
Turn off oven, turn on broiler, bake on a pizza steel under broiler. 3-4 minutes/pizza
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,703
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Quote:
oculodextro said:
Wanna trade pizza recipes?
Sure, hit me!
Here's some things that I generally do:
For the dough I tend to use a blend of about 1/3 semolina flour and 2/3 high-gluten patent flour (which tends to be around 13% protein if memory serves). I use dried yeast, and usually between 75-80% of the dry weight in water. Salt at around maybe 0.5-1% of the dry mass.
Kneading and fermentation is straightforward and what I use for nearly all my dough, whether it's sourdough for bread or yeast for pizza. Mix ingredients, let sit for 10 minutes, knead for about a minute, let sit for another 10-15 minutes, repeat the sit-knead routine a few times (usually 4 kneading sessions so around 45 minutes in total including wait time), then rise, knead again. If it's pizza, it's then portioned and rolled out to the desired thickness (I like them very thin, so something like 3-4mm), topped and baked. If it's bread, I put it in a proofing basket and proof; not too long. Then it goes into the oven. I bake both pizza and bread on a stone in a regular oven, usually at around 230C.
For pizza I prefer normal yeast because I find the flavor of sourdough too strong and not a good complement to the pizza topics, but that's a personal thing.
Tomato sauce: either I use canned tomatoes which I dunk into a colander to drain the fluids/juice, and I puree the remainder in a blender and add a dash of olive oil, a copious amount of dried oregano, and some ground black pepper. Or I start with a small tin of tomato paste and add the same things. The first option is a little wetter, the second a little drier and more concentrated in terms of flavor. I use both sparingly.
Toppings: I tend to vary, but I usually do something like:
1: tomato sauce, olives, thinly sliced garlic, thinly sliced onions (usually yellow, sometimes red), artichoke hearts. Sometimes I replace the olives with capers. Usually I add some dried chilies cut into sections. For cheese I use generic low-cost mozzarella; the marginal improvement in flavor of a true buffalo mozzarella compared to the significantly higher price has never done it for me. Sometimes I add some halved cherry tomatoes. Or instead of that some button mushrooms cut into thick slices.
2: I also like a pizza bianca once in a while, which starts with no tomato sauce, but includes the artichokes, onions, garlic, black olives, sometimes a few capers, a generous helping of coarsely ground black pepper and slightly drizzled with olive oil.
This covers about 95% of the pizza I make. I tend to include quite a few toppings as you can see, but use only a small amount of each ingredient. I don't like over-topped pizza that resembles a pie more than a pizza.
Quote:
I was doing a 5-7 day ferment with minimal yeast. Was great, but since I switched over to pure sourdough, I've really made what I consider a clean and healthy pizza.
The thing that people don't understand is most commercial breads are full of preservatives and rushed through production.
Think about it this way, you either make doughs in one hour (all you're bakery shit).
Or you allow the natural yeasts to ferment/digest all the tough fibers/proteins your body naturally cannot digest.
There's a resurgence of sourdough for "gluten intolerant" people. Motherfuckers don't have a gluten problem, your intestines would be falling out your asshole, you have an issue digesting a shitty-shit product that might as well be cardboard.
Bread rant over
In principle I have nothing against factory bread and we sometimes buy it as well, although usually the somewhat higher-end types and not the lowest cost bread. These breads are, at least where I live, quite alright if you take into account the inherent properties that are there for optimizing production and keeping qualities. Additions like copious amounts of propionic acid (which is a natural part of sourdough, but can also be created at an industrial scale) help in improving the keeping qualities and addition of L-cystein help with the texture, crumb and airiness of the bread. Of course usually there's gluten being added separately as well to help with texture and in the case of brown/dark breads, the coloration is just toasted malt and not due to the use of whole-grain flour, which is generally present at levels not surpassing maybe 6%. Everybody who bakes their own bread knows perfectly well that you can't bake a fluffy, airy bread with a very high amount of whole-grain flour, let alone rye flour, but supermarket breads sometimes lead us to think that they are 100% whole-grain, while in fact they are not. So taking into account these things, which aren't necessarily secrets as they are clearly listed in the ingredients, these factory breads are generally quite decent. I'm not talking about the pure-white cheap breads that I understand are popular in the US; that stuff is a kind of flour-based marshmallow that shouldn't be labeled 'bread'.
But the drawback of all these factory breads in my opinion is the lack of flavor. They're almost invariably bland (despite a relatively high salt content) and boring. But what can you expect from a product that is produced at insane levels of efficiency and throughput, in amazing volumes, at phenomenally low costs? So taking that into account, I think it's an interesting product. Just not one I would choose over a home-baked bread, obviously.
So, having said all that, I'm off to (1) start a pizza dough for tonight's pizza and (2) mix a sourdough for tomorrow's lunch.
PS: on the issue of gluten, you're of course correct that gluten intolerance precludes any consumption wheat. Sourdough doesn't make one iota of difference in that respect. Wheat-based sourdough breads have gluten just like any other bread and the fact that it's sourdough really doesn't make a difference at all. I've never been able to figure out where this fad of 'sourdough is better' came from. I really don't notice any difference myself, apart from flavor and texture. Those in my mind are good arguments and perfectly sufficient to keep baking sourdoughs, but all the nonsense about sourdough being healthier in whatever way is just inane banter to me.
Edited by koraks (02/01/20 07:15 AM)
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Bowman
ranger
Registered: 01/18/20
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Re: Sourdough [Re: koraks] 1
#26465465 - 02/02/20 03:04 PM (4 years, 2 months ago) |
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Koraks, I like your canned tomato topping idea, will try it next pizza night. About the gluten and sourdough thing, I believe that many people have a general wheat intolerance (rather than specifically gluten). A close friend has this problem and avoiding wheat products made a world of difference to his health. He says that sourdough bread seems to be much easier on him, though he keeps it to a minimum. The prolonged fermentation of the dough reduces whatever it is that causes problems. Similar situation with fermented dairy.
Pizza al funghi:
Spread full fat sour cream on pizza
Sprinkle with grated parmesan
Cover with sliced mushrooms
Lightly sprinkle with garlic salt
Lightly cover with grated mozzarella
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Ron Gunn
mind the bend the mind
Registered: 10/08/18
Posts: 18
Loc: You Quay
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I have a nine year old starter that I birthed from scratch here in Berkshire (UK).
It was only this year that I made the life changing step of buying a good heavy cast iron pot (Dutch Oven) for baking in. It really does make a huge difference.
I use a basic recipe which doesn't require a great deal of kneading and gives consistently excellent results.
Feed your starter first thing. When it's nice and thick and bubbly, around lunchtime, get going.
100g starter mixed with 300g water
Add 400g flour (I tend to use mostly white with 100g rye)
Mix well and leave to stand. Fold every half hour for the first two hours.
After two hours of autolysing, add 10g salt. I powder mine and mix with a little boiling water to turn it into a 'wash' for the dough, which should be quite elastic by now.
Get the salt into the dough and reshape. You can transfer to a banneton or other bowl now.
Leave to prove until bedtime. It should ride nicely in this time.
Now, sling it in the fridge and leave it overnight. This gives you a nice thick skin on the loaf which holds it together for when you score it and for tipping out into the Dutch Oven.
Get up nice and early and crank your oven up to 250 with your iron pot in there to preheat for half an hour or so.
When the pot's nice and hot, get the loaf out. Place two pieces of parchment on the 'top' (soon to be the bottom) of the loaf and grab a baking sheet. Place it over the paper and loaf and invert the thing so your loaf is now sat on the sheet. Get the pot ready, lid off. Score your loaf then get it into that pot and into the oven for half an hour before you take the lid off and drop the temperature to 230 degrees for another half hour (you can take the loaf out of the the pot for the second half hour if you wish.
Voila! Killer Sourdough.
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Edited by Ron Gunn (04/18/20 04:08 PM)
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Ron Gunn
mind the bend the mind
Registered: 10/08/18
Posts: 18
Loc: You Quay
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I was told that 'Gluten Intolerance' started happening after the type of wheat used in commercial flour was changed for a faster growing, higher yielding version which is harder for some people to digest. Commercial flour 'improver' also uses L-Cysteine, which used to be obtained from duck feathers and human hair. Which is nice.
I always use organic flour on principal.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,703
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Quote:
Ron Gunn said:
I was told that 'Gluten Intolerance' started happening after the type of wheat used in commercial flour was changed for a faster growing
It's just one of those conditions that just wasn't recognized for centuries. That doesn't mean it wasn't there.
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 1,205
Loc: Space is the Place
Last seen: 2 years, 30 days
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Re: Sourdough [Re: koraks]
#26637139 - 04/29/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sorry took me ages to respond here's my go to sourdough pizza recipe.
24g fed starter
259g flour
168g h20
8g salt
0.4g yeast
I mix everything together for 30-60 seconds by hand.
Let it sit for 20 minutes; give it another 30-60 hand mix.
After this I knead a liberal amount of oil into the pizza dough, then ball and ferment in fridge for as long as you can wait.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,703
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Sounds good, the water-flour ratio looks pretty OK, not too wet, not too dry. Should make for a dough that's fairly easy to work with.
Why the additional yeast though? I'd say it's not really necessary.
Also, 8g of salt??? WTF, in a recipe like yours I generally use 1 or max. 2 g. Pizza tends to be pretty salty to begin with due to the toppings, many of which are high in salt. I also find there's no real benefit to the use of so much salt in terms of the structure of the dough.
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
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Re: Sourdough [Re: koraks] 1
#26638581 - 04/30/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've been slowly decreasing the salt, but I prefer the chew I get with that amount.
Also I've slowly gotten rid of most of the yeast, I tend to supplement a pinch of yeast when my starter isn't quite vigorous.
This is considered a NYC styled sourdough, recipe from a local restaurant that I ran with.
I'll have to try some of your recommendations and see what happens.
Here's today's pizza. 
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,703
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Well, can't argue with the results of course; that pizza looks pretty much perfect!
See if you can do with a little less salt; your kidneys will thank you for it.
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Sleet
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Registered: 04/26/20
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Re: Sourdough [Re: koraks]
#26677408 - 05/17/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Man it's so soul crushing to take an undersalted bite, though, I can see why someone might go heavy. 8g for <400g of flour might be a little cray, but I use 10 grams of salt per 600~g boule and it seems pretty perfect. Any higher than that and it'll slow down your yeast, too. Just gotta remember to hydrate regularly and your kidneys'll be none the wiser.
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
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Re: Sourdough [Re: Sleet]
#26677421 - 05/17/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Every single sourdough pizza recipe I find online uses that high of salt too.
It's so we can let it ferment for 5-7 days in the fridge.
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Sleet
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Registered: 04/26/20
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Quote:
oculodextro said:
Every single sourdough pizza recipe I find online uses that high of salt too.
It's so we can let it ferment for 5-7 days in the fridge.
Hot damn that's a long proof! Susprised it doesn't start to taste alcoholic after that long. When I use a healthy levain (just barely float test passable) it's fully proofed after like 6 hours at room temp, or like a day max in the fridge. And you're using an instant yeast poolish in addition to your starter, right? Sounds like it'd be ready in no time, even with that much salt.
Edited by Sleet (05/17/20 06:46 PM)
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
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Re: Sourdough [Re: Sleet]
#26677479 - 05/17/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago) |
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Never gets hooched!
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.20
Here's where I got my formula from
He does a 2 day rise, but I like pushing it out, doesn't get boozy till about 10 days.
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Themanwiththeplan
Ghost
Registered: 01/12/17
Posts: 141
Loc: Nc,USA
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I like using the “old dough method “ of a starter..
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oculodextro
Registered: 04/10/13
Posts: 1,205
Loc: Space is the Place
Last seen: 2 years, 30 days
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Never had much success with old dough, started with Biga/Poolish, but Sourdough is best for my baking style.
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