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mudskippa
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Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam?
#26453681 - 01/26/20 02:40 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Hey,
I joined to post a question. Could a low dosage of Amanita Muscaria be used as an alternative to diazepam?
My research shows that Muscimol is a specific agonist of the GABA-alpha2 receptor so it's very well targeted to relieve neurological distress, such as anxiety and pain.
I assume it wouldn't have as many drawbacks as diazepam, which is not well-targeted and can cause tolerance and addiction easily.
Would there be any reason why this might be a bad idea? Could it potentially be taken daily for long periods of time?
I was considering this to relieve symptoms of a neuropsychiatric disorder. (By the way, a "neuropsychiatric" just means neurological symptoms caused by stress or trauma rather than an organic neurological problem).
Many thanks.
Edited by mudskippa (01/26/20 02:49 PM)
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ft116
The one



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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26453755 - 01/26/20 03:21 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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The answer I would say Is no. I have recently been experimenting With flys and always gone Into a stupor even on small doses.
They are very strong and Should not be taken lightly.
Even in small amounts you Get in touch with the spirit Of this mushroom.
Just be careful.
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The mushrooms are great. The mushrooms are fine. Give me them with lashings of wine.
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ft116
The one



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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: ft116]
#26453762 - 01/26/20 03:28 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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And watch out for nomes And fairy’s! 🙈
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The mushrooms are great. The mushrooms are fine. Give me them with lashings of wine.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: ft116]
#26453767 - 01/26/20 03:29 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
ft116 said: The answer I would say Is no. I have recently been experimenting With flys and always gone Into a stupor even on small doses.
They are very strong and Should not be taken lightly.
Even in small amounts you Get in touch with the spirit Of this mushroom.
Just be careful.
Thank you. I appreciate your reply. I just read your "Fly Aragic Trials" post. You took 4 caps? I wasn't thinking of anywhere near that amount for these purposes. I was thinking of really teeny dosages.
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ft116
The one



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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26453783 - 01/26/20 03:36 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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You might feel a very little Off a micro dose. I started with one small cap. Thought it wasn’t working So I ate three more. God what an experience.
I guess you might feel a bit Relaxed off a micro dose.
You could always experiment. Just don’t over do it.
Happy ventures into the world Of fly agaric.
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The mushrooms are great. The mushrooms are fine. Give me them with lashings of wine.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: ft116]
#26453793 - 01/26/20 03:44 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
ft116 said: You might feel a very little Off a micro dose. I started with one small cap. Thought it wasn’t working So I ate three more. God what an experience.
I guess you might feel a bit Relaxed off a micro dose.
You could always experiment. Just don’t over do it.
Happy ventures into the world Of fly agaric.
Thank you! Yes, that's basically exactly what I'm looking for, something to replicate 2-5mg of diazepam without the drawbacks. (And no gnomes or pixies )
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dpsoffgrid
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26453824 - 01/26/20 04:16 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Look up "Amanita dreamer" on you tube, she explains a ton.
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330ci
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: dpsoffgrid]
#26453864 - 01/26/20 04:50 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Shit gets so weird on them. I ate about a gram with some mdma and I was in a trance for like 8 hrs was a great experience but I can’t imagine taking these as a daily medication
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: dpsoffgrid]
#26453874 - 01/26/20 05:01 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
dpsoffgrid said: Look up "Amanita dreamer" on you tube, she explains a ton.
Thank you. I have actually watched a few of her vids while doing my research. She seems to be having mixed results and is using it for slightly different reasons.
I should point out that I don't take benzos or any other meds daily.
Diazepam is the only thing that actually helps my symptoms. But because I know about benzos, I only take it when I have to be 100% symptom-free (like if I'm going to a wedding).
So I take 5mg diazepam one day a month maximum and the rest of the time I struggle by feeling terrible and debilitated. That's why I'd like to find something I can take with no drawbacks. If diazepam wasn't a horrendous drug, I'd use that. But, as a recovering alcoholic who knows plenty about addiction, I'm not going there!
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: 330ci]
#26453885 - 01/26/20 05:07 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
330ci said: Shit gets so weird on them. I ate about a gram with some mdma and I was in a trance for like 8 hrs was a great experience but I can’t imagine taking these as a daily medication
Yeah, I have pretty specific reasons for thinking about it. And I would be talking about a tiny dose, like the equivalent of a normal dose of diazepam.
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dpsoffgrid
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26453896 - 01/26/20 05:13 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
mudskippa said:
Quote:
dpsoffgrid said: Look up "Amanita dreamer" on you tube, she explains a ton.
Thank you. I have actually watched a few of her vids while doing my research. She seems to be having mixed results and is using it for slightly different reasons.
I should point out that I don't take benzos or any other meds daily.
Diazepam is the only thing that actually helps my symptoms. But because I know about benzos, I only take it when I have to be 100% symptom-free (like if I'm going to a wedding).
So I take 5mg diazepam one day a month maximum and the rest of the time I struggle by feeling terrible and debilitated. That's why I'd like to find something I can take with no drawbacks. If diazepam wasn't a horrendous drug, I'd use that. But, as a recovering alcoholic who knows plenty about addiction, I'm not going there!
Best thing I did was quite drinking!! I have no crazing at all for it, thank god! Only wish I would of done it years ago.
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Sabnock
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: dpsoffgrid]
#26453911 - 01/26/20 05:22 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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One thing you could perhaps try doing, if approaching Amanita's as a regular medication kinda thing, is adding some sort of admixture plant(s) or supplement(s) or essential oil(s) with it, in order to make things a bit more functional or add certain elements/aspects that would make things more to your liking or for the specific purpose you're wanting to take them for. Don't underestimate the power and potential of the synergy that can happen in combinations, combinations can change things up quite a bit compared to taking something by itself. As for what you could mix with it to make things more stable and medicinal, that's for you to research and explore, just find things you think that will mix well with it, and try it out, there's lots of room for experimentation with plant medicines. I myself, have only taken Amanita's a few times on their own (and with Cannabis and Tobacco), and i went for higher dosages of Amanita's but never really had much come out of them, but i hear they can be pretty powerful, but i've always wondered about it's potential medicinal properties or as an admixture to my Ayahuasca. So imo, it's worth a shot, just be cautious and do it in your free time until you find a good combination of things, then try using it as a functional medicine, don't wanna get too out there if you got something you need to do.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: dpsoffgrid]
#26453932 - 01/26/20 05:32 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Best thing I did was quite drinking!! I have no crazing at all for it, thank god! Only wish I would of done it years ago.
Good for you mate. Yeah, I am sooo grateful alcohol is out of my life.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Sabnock] 1
#26453944 - 01/26/20 05:46 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sabnock said: One thing you could perhaps try doing, if approaching Amanita's as a regular medication kinda thing, is adding some sort of admixture plant(s) or supplement(s) or essential oil(s) with it, in order to make things a bit more functional or add certain elements/aspects that would make things more to your liking or for the specific purpose you're wanting to take them for. Don't underestimate the power and potential of the synergy that can happen in combinations, combinations can change things up quite a bit compared to taking something by itself. As for what you could mix with it to make things more stable and medicinal, that's for you to research and explore, just find things you think that will mix well with it, and try it out, there's lots of room for experimentation with plant medicines. I myself, have only taken Amanita's a few times on their own (and with Cannabis and Tobacco), and i went for higher dosages of Amanita's but never really had much come out of them, but i hear they can be pretty powerful, but i've always wondered about it's potential medicinal properties or as an admixture to my Ayahuasca. So imo, it's worth a shot, just be cautious and do it in your free time until you find a good combination of things, then try using it as a functional medicine, don't wanna get too out there if you got something you need to do.
Thank you. What a wonderfully thoughtful comment.
It's hard to find research that isn't behind a paywall that is specific enough to use for this, but I like your point.
The really amazing thing about Muscimol is that it is almost unique in its GABA-A2 utility. Most GABA agonists and analogs cover more receptors, which could lead to increased sedation, memory problems, downregulation etc. Or they push each other out of receptors. This is why I am so very interested in AM's potential. GABA-A2 seems to be an absolute goldmine target for problems like mine.
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26453980 - 01/26/20 06:07 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Well by research i mean primarily like look into different plants, supplements, oils, etc, find some that look interesting, get ahold of some, mix them with a low dose of Amanita's and see how it goes. See what the plants/supplements/oils are good/useful for, maybe even look into some of the properties they have and what they do in the body/on the brain (if possible), find one's that seem interesting/worthwhile and go for it, see what comes of it. For the most part if i come across a plant or something that i hear good things about or that i come across through research or that is recommended to me, or i hear people talking about, i'll look at the wiki page for it for some basic info, and then i'll head on over to pubmed and skim through some abstracts or articles to see what's been found out about the plant, and if i find it interesting enough, i get some and just experiment around.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Sabnock] 1
#26454001 - 01/26/20 06:22 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Sabnock said: Well by research i mean primarily like look into different plants, supplements, oils, etc, find some that look interesting, get ahold of some, mix them with a low dose of Amanita's and see how it goes. See what the plants/supplements/oils are good/useful for, maybe even look into some of the properties they have and what they do in the body/on the brain (if possible), find one's that seem interesting/worthwhile and go for it, see what comes of it. For the most part if i come across a plant or something that i hear good things about or that i come across through research or that is recommended to me, or i hear people talking about, i'll look at the wiki page for it for some basic info, and then i'll head on over to pubmed and skim through some abstracts or articles to see what's been found out about the plant, and if i find it interesting enough, i get some and just experiment around.
Yes, thank you, I'm doing that. I have been researching and experimenting with this for a while as I've been ill for 4-5 years.
It's a bit of a lonely road as most info doesn't get as specific as I need and no-one else seems to be researching this exact problem.
Pubmed is great, though you do kind of have to go into the articles properly as the research can be misleading if you just skim it. Not great when you have brain fog already like I do
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Sabnock
Be Your Own Shaman


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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26454081 - 01/26/20 07:18 PM (4 years, 3 days ago) |
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True. Another good source for some info can be examine.com
But yeah, i found Mucuna extract (containing L-Dopa) to be good for brain fog and an increase in clearheadedness, Lemon EO (or pure Limonene) can also be good for clearheadedness, and if you're not against it, perhaps try like 2 to 3 Ibuprofen as brain fog can be due to inflammation. Probiotics may also be useful. Ginger or Peppermint may also be useful to try out. I really like Lemon Balm, but on it's own it's kinda mild but it does inhibit GABA-Transaminase so it can be useful for anxiety and relaxation, particularly with Entheogens. Another thing you may try doing, if you're not on contraindicated medications that is, is consuming like 2 grams of Syrian Rue seed powder in capsules, i've been dosing 2 grams for the last like 4 days or so and it does seem to have some pain relieving properties and other interesting properties.
Edited by Sabnock (01/26/20 07:27 PM)
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Lophophora
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Sabnock]
#26454310 - 01/26/20 11:20 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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I can say that muscimol is being used in hospital settings now as a last line anticonvulsant when status epilepticus has failed to respond to benzos and NMDA antagonists. Generally it's given via infusion directly to the brain though rather than oral or IV with great success however whether it would work for anxiolytic purposes I don't know, perhaps you'll have to test it out yourself and see what happens.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Sabnock]
#26454466 - 01/27/20 04:09 AM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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I like Lemon Balm. There is a product called 'Melissa Dream' that contains Lemon Balm, Chamomile, L-theanine and Magnesium that is my first-level sleeping pill before I turn to anything pharmaceutical. I haven't tried taking a dose during the day, but I might. I love Ginger for nausea.
It's really interesting looking at functional treatments. I have tried many nootropics, plants, and herbs and rarely does anything work for me. It doesn't help that I am hypersensitive to everything now, which really does suggest I'm in glutamate overload territory. I also think my adrenals are burned not. Not in the way most people's are. Morning cortisol tests showed I had LOW cortisol, not high. This potentially explains why many anxiety or stress relief supplements are counterproductive.
Interestingly, the only other thing other than diazepam that I've had any symptom relief from is N-Acetyl-Cysteine. The first week I took it, I felt almost normal. My main symptoms are dizziness and head pressure, and on NAC, I recall being able to walk much further without dizziness. But afterwards, it totally stopped working and made me feel worse than ever. I will have to look up the functional mechanisms of NAC and maybe try that again once a week or something.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Lophophora]
#26454467 - 01/27/20 04:13 AM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lophophora said: I can say that muscimol is being used in hospital settings now as a last line anticonvulsant when status epilepticus has failed to respond to benzos and NMDA antagonists. Generally it's given via infusion directly to the brain though rather than oral or IV with great success however whether it would work for anxiolytic purposes I don't know, perhaps you'll have to test it out yourself and see what happens.
I looked that up in a buzz of excitement! Epilepsy meds are of interest to me. However, it's MuscADol they give to patients, not MuscIMol. Muscadol is a mix of caffeine, painkillers, and anti-histamines. I am actually looking at anti-histimines as a form of treatment though, so your post may be a "happy accident" that reminded me to look that up further. Thanks.
Edited by mudskippa (01/27/20 04:14 AM)
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Bph
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26454535 - 01/27/20 05:54 AM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Have you ever tried kratom? Shit changed my life. No more pain pills. No more brain pills. Just a couple glasses full of green sludge a day and I'm good. The down side is that it's hard to get a consistent product. But once you find a strain and a farm that you like stick with it. Greens for getting stuff done reds for calming down. Good luck whatever you do I hope something works out for ya.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Bph]
#26454619 - 01/27/20 06:52 AM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Bph said: Have you ever tried kratom? Shit changed my life. No more pain pills. No more brain pills. Just a couple glasses full of green sludge a day and I'm good. The down side is that it's hard to get a consistent product. But once you find a strain and a farm that you like stick with it. Greens for getting stuff done reds for calming down. Good luck whatever you do I hope something works out for ya.
Thank you. I'd not considered Kratom due to high addiction potential in someone like me with past addiction problems. Mind you, I was always about the dopamine (alcohol, sugar, caffeine, nicotine) and not the opioids. Actually opioids do nothing for my disorder. Codeine doesn't touch the sides.
I may as well get into my specific issue seeing as people are being kind enough to offer potential solutions.
I basically have a Sensory Gating Disorder. I do NOT have autism. I have not always been like this. I endured one big trauma too many after a childhood full of it. This led to me becoming massively sensitive to sensory inputs.
Movement and light are excruciating, especially if I have to concentrate. I literally have to wear sunglasses everywhere or I get dizzy, nauseous, confused, and migrainey. I have symptoms all the time, even on waking, and they just worsen with exposure to sensory inputs. It's like my body has reacted to the trauma by saying "No, everything is too much now! Don't go anywhere or do anything."
Diazepam works for me because it is a CNS depressant and also a GABA agonist. Painkillers and migraine meds don't work. Beta blockers don't work and actully make me feel awful as I have low blood pressure. My fight-flight response slowed to a freeze due to my childhood, so I don't need my adrenal system to be blocked.
If diazepam had no tolerance or addiction issues and didn't affect the memory, I'd just take that every day. From what I know, Muscimol does not have these issues. I may be wrong, which is why I am posting on here. I do not live somewhere where it's easy to get Amanita, but if it would help me, I would make every effort to get it.
If anyone else had childhood trauma, became an alcoholic, and then developed a CNS disorder, it would be well worth reading this science paper which pretty much confirms why I want to try Muscimol for the GABA-A2-specfic effect.
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ft116
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26455432 - 01/27/20 03:23 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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You could always extract The fly agaric. Haven’t read up on it Much but I think the Extraction process is alcohol Based. Never tried it myself but I know vendors sell Fly agaric extract.
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The mushrooms are great. The mushrooms are fine. Give me them with lashings of wine.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: ft116]
#26455591 - 01/27/20 05:09 PM (4 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
ft116 said: You could always extract The fly agaric. Haven’t read up on it Much but I think the Extraction process is alcohol Based. Never tried it myself but I know vendors sell Fly agaric extract.
Thank you. As a recovering alkie, I literally can't have alcohol in my house at all. I can't even have cough medicine or mouthwash with alcohol in as it sets up huge cravings. I found some good information on how to prepare it myself.
To convert the maximum amount to Muscimol, which is what I want, there are 3 steps: 1: Bake it at 75 degrees Celsius 2. Simmer it in water for 20 mins 4. Lemon-tek it I'm thinking of trying baking it, grinding it, then adding small doses to lemon juice and just-boiled water to make a cup of tea whenever I need it.
It's actually easy to order dried caps online as it's legal in this country. I thought it would be much harder! Quite excited about trying this now, as I've been stuck in bed feeling crap for 3 days and I could do with a break soon.
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igorcarajo
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26456030 - 01/27/20 09:07 PM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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I took diazepam for the first time ever recently. After it kicked in and obliterated my anxiety, I was like “oh my god, this drug is wonderful, I bet it’s highly addictive”. And as it turns out, it is. I resolved to use it very seldom.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: igorcarajo]
#26456246 - 01/28/20 04:10 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
igorcarajo said: I took diazepam for the first time ever recently. After it kicked in and obliterated my anxiety, I was like “oh my god, this drug is wonderful, I bet it’s highly addictive”. And as it turns out, it is. I resolved to use it very seldom.
You are wise. By the way, I know what that feels like. I used to have social anxiety disorder so bad that it was painful to leave the house. I became an alcoholic by the age of 18 just to function. The first time I had to take antibiotics, the doctor gave me diazepam to detox. I remember going to uni just feeling what I understand now is "normal".
There are good ways to treat anxiety disorders. I got rid of mine by using a combination of hypnotherapy and bodywork 15 years ago. That worked so well that I have considered using the same thing for my Neuropsychiatric stuff. But I would struggle to go to a practitioner's office in my current state.
Whatever you do, you need to work on the root cause of anxiety if possible to prevent reoccurrence. If my Muscaria experiment works, I'm hoping it will give me the chance to do something more than pure symptom relief, since my illness is down to my propensity to psychosomatise trauma.
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Pandemoon
Ἧeẍeᾐmeḭsṫeŗ ͛


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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: mudskippa]
#26456251 - 01/28/20 04:19 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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You can make a tea of a big batch of mushrooms (say 20g with 20 cups of water), then separate it into small doses (like 1g per cup). You can freeze the tea to keep it long term. Then you have a pool of consistent doses.
You can also pour the tea into ice-cube trays, to have some micro doses.
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mudskippa
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Re: Low dose Amanita muscaria as a sub for Diazepam? [Re: Pandemoon]
#26456253 - 01/28/20 04:39 AM (4 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
Pandemoon said: You can make a tea of a big batch of mushrooms (say 20g with 20 cups of water), then separate it into small doses (like 1g per cup). You can freeze the tea to keep it long term. Then you have a pool of consistent doses.
You can also pour the tea into ice-cube trays, to have some micro doses.
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Thanks, but I share a freezer, so I can't really do that. Would it work the way I was going to do it? I was thinking of just baking a batch up, grinding, storing in a drawer with some desiccant to keep it dark and dry. Then using some mini-scales to measure out doses and add kettle-boiled water and a bit of lemon juice, maybe leaving for 20 mins? Obviously, if I did that, I'd have to use the same amount of lemon, water etc. each time.
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