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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 36 minutes, 26 seconds
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InfiniteDreams said:
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morrowasted said: You appear to be depicting yourself of an ally for a population of people- specifically, young people who are experiencing economic hardship as a result of government actions taken to limit the spread of COVID. I still interact with a lot of people, and many of those people fully support those actions- despite that economic hardship. Many of them are willing to temporarily make sacrifices for the good of the whole- a whole that, from their perspective, includes the aging population. I imagine that those particular people probably don't appreciate you citing their economic hardship as a reason for calling government actions into question, since they themselves don't do it.
I am, however, perfectly willing to listen to the rationale of those who are personally undergoing economic hardship who do not support those actions.
I was just trying to clarify whether or not you were speaking from personal experience, or engaging in allyship.
You keep maintaining a false dichotomy that there is a choice between health and economics. That is understandable given the political narratives that are pushed. Reality is that many places in the world have managed to adopt practices to protect health without destroying their economy.
Yep. These places took the virus seriously. They shut down everything at the first sign of an outbreak. They used testing as a surveillance. They contact traced and had mandatory quarantines for the sick and those exposed. Their societies didn’t turn public health measures into a political debate.
This country did none of those things. We half assed everything. We decided to turn not wearing masks into a political statement.
Look at New Zealand. They had no active cases for 100 days and shut down instantly after four cases were detected. They’ll be back up and running in a week, while the US continues to flounder because of magical thinking at the highest levels.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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You keep maintaining a false dichotomy that there is a choice between health and economics. That is understandable given the political narratives that are pushed. Reality is that many places in the world have managed to adopt practices to protect health without destroying their economy.
Which places? What are those practices? Can they now or could they have been implemented within the cultural context of US society? There are certain strategies that I think would have been effective had they been implemented much earlier in the process- around the time that Trump was claiming COVID was akin to the flu and that it would soon be gone- but in the present moment, I can't personally see any way to contain the spread without necessitating some level of economic problems. I'd like to hear your take- straightforwardly and without sarcasm.
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Your motive is to discredit others while constantly asserting yourself and your opinion as superior. You do not speak for the populations of people mentioned, and your imagination of their beliefs is irrelevant.
My motive is to question ideas, attitudes, and behaviors that seem questionable to me in order to discern truths and best practices. Your perception of me is your own business. If there is any opinion present in my post, it's simply that the young and economically disadvantaged can speak for themselves. My original reply to you certainly did not contain any opinion, though- it was a straightforward question.
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I don't speak for them either. I provided reputable news sources who do speak for and advocate for them based on journalistic research.
My reply was to your post that "the young are bearing the brunt of the burden for the old", not to your post containing the NPR articles. The tone of your post is sarcastic (as a matter of fact, I've noticed that sarcasm appears to be one of your favorite rhetorical devices): "It's a good thing that...". If those who are in fact at an increasing economic disadvantage because of government actions wish to explain why they would prefer not to "be bearing the brunt for the old", I'd be happy to hear them out. If you're one of those people, I'd be happy to hear you out. If you're not, I would prefer to speak with someone who isn't being presumptuous about the attitudes of others. This is why I asked the question.
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Your anecdotes are not superior to this. Why should I bother to provide my own when the same can be said? You don't ask questions in the pursuit of truth, your intention is duplicitous.
Superior to what? My claim is that is not that young people aren't experiencing economic disadvantages right now: the truth I am seeking is whether those experiencing hardship actually feel like this is unfair; that they aren't willing to endure hardship for the benefit of older members of society. Having spoken with a number of young people, it's not clear to me that they're not. Many younger people seem quite willing to make personal sacrifices. The fact that I took the time to ask you whether you were a member of the class of people you seem to be defending precisely evidences that what I am doing is "truth-seeking" rather than simply trying to demonstrate "the wrongness of someone else's opinion" or "my superiority". I'm also genuinely curious about the strategies you're envisioning that would optimize both health and economic well-being for all. This isn't an attempt to catch you in a trap. I'm not an economist. It's an attempt to learn. It's a shame that you see it otherwise.
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InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: koods]
#26899094 - 08/25/20 04:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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koods said:
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InfiniteDreams said:
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morrowasted said: You appear to be depicting yourself of an ally for a population of people- specifically, young people who are experiencing economic hardship as a result of government actions taken to limit the spread of COVID. I still interact with a lot of people, and many of those people fully support those actions- despite that economic hardship. Many of them are willing to temporarily make sacrifices for the good of the whole- a whole that, from their perspective, includes the aging population. I imagine that those particular people probably don't appreciate you citing their economic hardship as a reason for calling government actions into question, since they themselves don't do it.
I am, however, perfectly willing to listen to the rationale of those who are personally undergoing economic hardship who do not support those actions.
I was just trying to clarify whether or not you were speaking from personal experience, or engaging in allyship.
You keep maintaining a false dichotomy that there is a choice between health and economics. That is understandable given the political narratives that are pushed. Reality is that many places in the world have managed to adopt practices to protect health without destroying their economy.
Yep. These places took the virus seriously. They shut down everything at the first sign of an outbreak. They used testing as a surveillance. They contact traced and had mandatory quarantines for the sick and those exposed. Their societies didn’t turn public health measures into a political debate.
This country did none of those things. We half assed everything. We decided to turn not wearing masks into a political statement.
Look at New Zealand. They had no active cases for 100 days and shut down instantly after four cases were detected. They’ll be back up and running in a week, while the US continues to flounder because of magical thinking at the highest levels.
Great... did they destroy their economy in the process?
And it isn't all roses in NZ unfortunately: But the emergence this week of a cluster of cases — currently numbering 30 — has caught the nation by surprise, and is a blow to the government’s strategy to eliminate the virus.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 36 minutes, 26 seconds
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30 cases in a week. We have 30 new cases per minute
New Zealand has effectively had everything open for months BTW
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (08/25/20 04:43 PM)
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InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted] 1
#26899115 - 08/25/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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morrowasted said: Which places? What are those practices? Can they now or could they have been implemented within the cultural context of US society? There are certain strategies that I think would have been effective had they been implemented much earlier in the process- around the time that Trump was claiming COVID was akin to the flu and that it would soon be gone- but in the present moment, I can't personally see any way to contain the spread without necessitating some level of economic problems. I'd like to hear your take- straightforwardly and without sarcasm.
Germany for one. Maintain employment or subsidize income. Maintain infrastructure. Easy peasy, any country can do it.
Some level of economic problems? Sure, not saying there can be no impact, but the US approach is disastrous.
I can refrain from sarcasm if you can drop your conceit.
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morrowasted said: My motive is to question ideas, attitudes, and behaviors that seem questionable to me in order to discern truths and best practices. Your perception of me is your own business. If there is any opinion present in my post, it's simply that the young and economically disadvantaged can speak for themselves. My original reply to you certainly did not contain any opinion, though- it was a straightforward question.
I don't believe you. Your question was disingenuous. A young and economically disadvantaged person can speak for themself, not for an entire group of people. Thus the linked articles.
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morrowasted said: My reply was to your post that "the young are bearing the brunt of the burden for the old", not to your post containing the NPR articles. The tone of your post is sarcastic (as a matter of fact, I've noticed that sarcasm appears to be one of your favorite rhetorical devices): "It's a good thing that...". If those who are in fact at an increasing economic disadvantage because of government actions wish to explain why they would prefer not to "be bearing the brunt for the old", I'd be happy to hear them out. If you're one of those people, I'd be happy to hear you out. If you're not, I would prefer to speak with someone who isn't being presumptuous about the attitudes of others. This is why I asked the question.
You can refrain from ad hominem. But again, I notice that conceit and condescension are your rhetorical devices. A bit of narcissism perhaps?
If you insist on personal accounts, then yes I speak with plenty of people in danger of losing their homes, unable to collect unemployment, struggling to feed their children, unable to receive medical treatment they rely on. They do not support these decisions that have cost them their stability. They do not wish ill on others, but are bitter at being sacrificed. I do not support the actions driven by fear that have endangered them and their future. I know this because I participate in charity to help those in my community.
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morrowasted said: Superior to what? My claim is that is not that young people aren't experiencing economic disadvantages right now: the truth I am seeking is whether those experiencing hardship actually feel like this is unfair; that they aren't willing to endure hardship for the benefit of older members of society. Having spoken with a number of young people, it's not clear to me that they're not. Many younger people seem quite willing to make personal sacrifices. The fact that I took the time to ask you whether you were a member of the class of people you seem to be defending precisely evidences that what I am doing is "truth-seeking" rather than simply trying to demonstrate "the wrongness of someone else's opinion" or "my superiority". I'm also genuinely curious about the strategies you're envisioning that would optimize both health and economic well-being for all. This isn't an attempt to catch you in a trap. I'm not an economist. It's an attempt to learn. It's a shame that you see it otherwise.
You have your beliefs and refuse to learn. I provide articles that directly contradict your opinion that is based on the experience of your friends. I see it otherwise because your actions do not match your words.
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budmanman
OTD Masterbater



Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 17,975
Loc: PNW
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-------------------- Everything I have ever said is total bogus bs I am full of crud therefore everything I say should never be taken literal. And I am mentally unstable.
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 36 minutes, 26 seconds
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: budmanman] 1
#26899218 - 08/25/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The CDC stopped being a reliable science based operation a long time ago
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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Germany for one. Maintain employment or subsidize income. Maintain infrastructure. Easy peasy, any country can do it.
Some level of economic problems? Sure, not saying there can be no impact, but the US approach is disastrous.
I can refrain from sarcasm if you can drop your conceit.
How do you maintain employment without risking the health of workers? What do you mean "subsidize income"? As in give unemployment benefits? We are. Most of the young people I know are or were making as much or more money on unemployment as they were at their jobs. In some cases, so much so that I've heard some of them unabashedly discuss the finer points of trying to get away with unemployment fraud.
I will admit that I haven't been paying close attention to the economy because I've been employed and don't have much in the way of investments but almost all of the increased suffering I've personally seen people experiencing this year has been related to illness- either by personally being hospitalized, or having loved ones get hospitalized and/or die from COVID- rather than financial hardship. I only have a handful of friends and a few dozen acquaintances, but everyone I know is either employed or, as I said, receiving as much or more money as they had been receiving from a paycheck via unemployment benefits. I personally took a 10% paycut back in late March, along with everyone else in the hospital. This wasn't convenient for me, but that was and remains a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it's in the best interest of society as a whole- the elderly included. My understanding is that it was necessary for the hospital to reduce expenditures in order to be able to stay afloat and provide care for COVID patients, since the provision of many other money-generating services had become and remains either nonexistent or significantly reduced.
I doubt you'd perceive me as conceited if we were having this conversation in person.
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I don't believe you. Your question was disingenuous. A young and economically disadvantaged person can speak for themself, not for an entire group of people. Thus the linked articles.
That's your prerogative. It wasn't "disingenuous". And yes, as I said:
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the young and economically disadvantaged can speak for themselves.
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If you insist on personal accounts, then yes I speak with plenty of people in danger of losing their homes, unable to collect unemployment, struggling to feed their children, unable to receive medical treatment they rely on
That's unfortunate. With the exception of people unable to receive medical treatment, I don't know anyone like that, but I'm sure they exist. I have an acquaintance who's a nurse who had to put off a surgical lumpectomy for breast cancer, and while she was concerned for her own well-being, she seemed more understanding than resentful about needing to do so.
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They do not support these decisions that have cost them their stability.
Which decisions? To shut down certain kinds of businesses? It could be that I don't know as many people experiencing the problems you're talking about because my state did not keep businesses closed for very long- it was only from Mid March until the end of April. Unfortunately, from mid May until mid to late July, my state experienced a rapid increase in covid cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This is why I said most of the increased suffering I've witnessed is related to the illness rather than economic hardship. Having been in a position to be able to interview those who become hospitalized, many of these individuals seem to believe that they contracted the illness in the workplace. This is why I am skeptical about your claim that it is possible to simultaneously maximize both physical and economic health- my experience tells me that emphasizing one necessarily occurs, to an extent, at the expense of the other. I'm absolutely open to the possibility that is isn't the case, but thus far I haven't read a compelling account of how to make that happen.
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You have your beliefs and refuse to learn.
On the contrary, most of what I post is speculation, and the nature of my speculation has certainly changed when warranted. I've cited it before, but back in the Spring I was one of the principle proponents of speculation that hot and humid environments would not prove to be conducive to the spread of covid. I was challenged on this, primarily by koods, and I ended up learning- the hard way- just how wrong I was.
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I provide articles that directly contradict your opinion that is based on the experience of your friends.
Again, I haven't really stated an opinion. I stated that I was doing just fine, and asked if you were. I should have been more explicit when I said I'm doing just fine. What I meant was that in spite of having received a 10% paycut and being required to work in more dangerous and emotionally/physically exhausting conditions, I don't have any resentment about the need for it to happen, because I understand the reasons. I certainly wish that the federal government had made different decisions earlier in the process, but they didn't- and this is hand I have to play.
There are examples of the younger generations placing themselves in economic and physical peril for the benefit of the whole society- see World War 2. Young men and women were proud to put themselves in danger and take on unprecedented professions/workloads, because they perceived that it was the right thing to do. Foods were rationed, "victory" gardens were grown. In the same way, myself and many of the younger people I know have been willing to place themselves in harm's way- by continuing to work in the healthcare professions or other essential professions, for example- or endure changes in their financial situation- by accepting furloughs without becoming resentful at the elderly- because they perceived that enduring temporary discomfort, danger, and insecurity was the right course of action for the benefit of society.
Edited by morrowasted (08/25/20 06:43 PM)
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InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
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You won't look outside your bubble. You just constantly restate your personal beliefs and what you see by those you directly interact with. You don't look beyond. When provided with 3rd party evidence of the existence of large groups of people you ignore it does not factor into your view. When provided with 1st hand account of the existence you simply state that your bubble doesn't include those people.
It isn't my job to do your research for you, study the other countries that maintained employment to see how it was accomplished. I am not going to waste my time because it is obvious it goes in one ear and out the other.
You only see people suffering from illness because that is what you surround yourself with. The same as a cop who views the world as populated entirely by criminals. The broke, homeless, starving people aren't exactly going to parade around in front of your home.
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morrowasted said: What I meant was that in spite of having received a 10% paycut and being required to work in more dangerous and emotionally/physically exhausting conditions, I don't have any resentment about the need for it to happen, because I understand the reasons.
Always with the martyrdom. If you believe so strongly that this is biggest threat to humanity then become a virologist, chemist, someone who can make a large impact.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
InfiniteDreams said: You won't look outside your bubble. You just constantly restate your personal beliefs and what you see by those you directly interact with. You don't look beyond. When provided with 3rd party evidence of the existence of large groups of people you ignore it does not factor into your view. When provided with 1st hand account of the existence you simply state that your bubble doesn't include those people.
That's world class projection right there. Kudos sir.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper


Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,377
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 3 days, 23 hours
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It isn't my job to do your research for you, study the other countries that maintained employment to see how it was accomplished.
Again with the "do your own homework" replies.
Just gonna steal this from myself and repost it...
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How Doc Apparently Thinks the History of People Changing their Minds Looks
Plato, speaking at an open forum in Ancient Greece: "So hey guys I think all this apparent physical stuff just like a bunch of shadow versions of the true version of each kind of that stuff in another realm."
Ancient Greeks, gesturing at their eyes and ears: yeah that doesn't seem intuitive to me at all based on my experience. Kinda just seems like the stuff I experience is the only stuff there is. what makes ya think this stuff I experience is less real than this other stuff you just came up with?
Plato, speaking to Ancient Greeks and immediately losing his patiece while vigorously gesturing around at nothing in particular, and then at things that dont make his counterintuitive claims any less counterintuitive to other people: OMG do yall really need me to hold your hand and walk you through this? Do your own homework, jesus.
Ancient Greeks, bowing down to Plato in reverence: OMG plato not only are you entitled to just come into the public forum and proclaim ideas that are totally counterintuitive to us without expecting to be challenged on them but, like, since you were so incredibly smart and convincing when you said it we are totally gonna gonna make sure people remember and talk about how smart and convincing you were when you said them
An actual history of how people's minds get changed in the real world:
Morrowasted, proclaiming an idea in an open forum: well at least this virus will probably go away in the summer here in houston since other common respiratory viruses seem to follow a seasonal pattern and therefore they probably dont do well in hot and humid clients
Koods, gesturing to various statistics about the expanding rates of said virus in some of the hottest and humid clients in the USA like lousiana and Florida: IDK morrowasted it kinda seems like you might be wrong because of this specific evidence
Morrowasted, stubbornly whistling in the dark, looking for any reason at all not to believe it: IDK koods I still think Texas is gonna be the exception b/c it's only probably only that bad in florida and lousiana because of mardi gras and spring break partiers
Mid June-July, massive undeniable explosion of covid patients sick and dying making the truth impossible to avoid: Here ya go
Morrowasted, to grumbling to self, not even giving koods the satisfaction of winning the argument until weeks later during a guilt-ridden trip full of self-reflection in which he realizes his ideas may have been damaging to public perception: well damn, I guess I was wrong
Long story short dude you totally might be right but you haven't presented anything compelling. Just don't take it personally when people don't just read your ideas and accept them straight away, particularly when you can't straightforwardly answer the questions they have about those ideas. We argue here. We have opinions. I'm used to having people try to tell me mine suck. Sometimes they do suck. Sometimes they don't. No hard feelings.
If you just want to come into a thread on a public forum and voice opinions ("Reality is that many places in the world have managed to adopt practices to protect health without destroying their economy.") or make sarcastic comments that imply you have a certain opinion ("Well, good thing the young are bearing the brunt of the burden for the old then!"), fine. Don't take it personally when people ask you questions about your opinion. Don't take it personally if people voice skepticism of your opinion when you refuse to answer those questions straightforwardly. If you don't want to convince anyone of the validity of your opinions, you've chosen the perfect strategy. Farbeit from me to compel you to try to convince me. If you decide you are interested in doing so, you'll put in the effort.
And by the way, I haven't even really expressed skepticism of your opinion. I was just asking you questions to try to understand the extent to which personal experience and abstraction each contributed to your having arrived at it. I openly acknowledge that my anecdotes are anecdotes, and the role that they play in my perspective. If you don't care to explain how/why you arrived at yours, that is your prerogative, and there is no need dish out ad hominems in attempt to defend yourself. If you do care to explain how/why you arrived at it, then you should be aware that using ad hominems is even less convincing than using sarcasm. We're adults here discussing a range of topics related to COVID. If you want to discuss them, discuss them. If you don't want to discuss them, don't. But interjecting sarcasm and insults doesn't do anyone any good.
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Always with the martyrdom. If you believe so strongly that this is biggest threat to humanity then become a virologist, chemist, someone who can make a large impact.
My job positions me to be able to reduce the suffering related to COVID to precisely the extent I feel comfortable with. By the same token, I could say that if you believe so strongly that the "destruction of the economy" is the biggest threat then become a politician but not everyone who has an opinion is inclined to position themselves for maximal global influence, and that's perfectly fine.
Edited by morrowasted (08/26/20 11:29 AM)
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PumpJackTeX
livin life



Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 3,951
Loc: California
Last seen: 10 months, 29 days
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We dead yet?
-------------------- Life. 2008 Ascension Energy | UFOs | 2021
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feevers


Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc:
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: PumpJackTeX] 2
#26900365 - 08/26/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Only a couple hundred thousand of us.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: feevers]
#26900375 - 08/26/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's taking longer for that number to become a million than I thought it would.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Niffla



Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 46,483
Loc: Texas
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Quote:
PumpJackTeX said: We dead yet?
Against all odds somehow everyone in this thread that has been here since the beginning is still here
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HAIL OUR NEW OTD KING
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Niffla



Registered: 06/09/08
Posts: 46,483
Loc: Texas
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Niffla] 1
#26900400 - 08/26/20 12:00 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh yeah I haven't done a recovery update in ages
Worldwide covid recoveries (as of the latest statistic I could find which was from August 24):
11,447,153
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HAIL OUR NEW OTD KING
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InfiniteDreams


Registered: 10/25/19
Posts: 1,224
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: That's world class projection right there. Kudos sir.
Troll harder. Or are you too busy working hard for the country you abhor? If I need any help with hypocrisy I will try to aspire to your level. On a lighter note, you remind me of Moburg.
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morrowasted said:
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It isn't my job to do your research for you, study the other countries that maintained employment to see how it was accomplished.
Again with the "do your own homework" replies.
Just gonna steal this from myself and repost it...
Don't bother. You never get tired of yourself. You've told me yourself how humble and noble you are.
I answered your question directly and you are too lazy to look up the answers you want. That's because you don't actually want the answers.
And you conveniently latch onto one piece and neglect the rest. So let me reiterate:
You only see people suffering from illness because that is what you surround yourself with. The same as a cop who views the world as populated entirely by criminals. The broke, homeless, starving people aren't exactly going to parade around in front of your home.
Just realized, you probably don't have children. Nobody depending on you for their livelihood. IF you did would you take them to the hospital with you while you work? Would the hospital allow that? Would it be a good idea to put them in such a high risk environment? Or would you leave them home alone while you work? Obviously that wouldn't even be possible unless they were at least teenagers. Daycare is not an option right now, if you were able to afford it anyway. It is thousands a month even in LCOL areas in normal times.
Edited by InfiniteDreams (08/26/20 08:05 PM)
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Gorlax



Registered: 05/06/08
Posts: 6,695
Last seen: 15 days, 23 hours
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No shit we need a vaccine. The development takes a long ass time. They slashed the time but still think about putting together randomized studies of thousands.
It would make more sense to infuse plasma into people especially in emergency situations with the antibodies. Think about, your introducing already matched plasma, treated, and given the warriors to fight the infection. It is a no brainer and cuts so much red tape. Page 207 I brought this exact thought up word for word.
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CHeifM4sterDiezL
Chief Globerts


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 22,535
Loc: United States
Last seen: 3 minutes, 29 seconds
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Gorlax]
#26901543 - 08/27/20 01:53 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah sounds like plasma could be a treatment for those sick with covid now immediately where as a vaccine would be alot farther off.
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cannabinated


Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 14,743
Loc: Outside
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