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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: cannabinated]
    #26888756 - 08/19/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: cannabinated]
    #26888757 - 08/19/20 04:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

we need to find the people who murdered the ppl who did this


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26888856 - 08/19/20 05:08 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
No one here has said there is no corruption.
So don't try and twist the narrative.

They have queried the levels.

Fundamentally it's corrupted from the beggining....I mean for Christ sakes look at the difference in outcomes from private health to state run hospitals....step through the morality there.

Extending out from the fact that corruption exists in all capatilist industry to state that the Covid numbers are being recorded higher than they actually are is What you are arguing.

I think that this is a very minor number and you have been sucked into the vortex of "anything to to prove it isnt as bad as they say" club.

But it's worked...here we are distracted from reality.:elmo:



thats bullshit. I had a whole conversation about it here about a week ago and several people claiming to be in the loop was saying that it doesn't happen,  that doctors and nurses wouldn't risk their licenses over it, so don't tell me no one is saying that it doesn't happen. because they did!.  I don't care if you guys don't want to accept that there are folks making a killing off covid19, their is plenty of incentive for fraud to take place, some took offense that I mentioned it, but its fact. This virus is being blown out of proportion for both political and monetary gain.


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151] * 2
    #26888867 - 08/19/20 05:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I remember the conversation well. Your claims were repeatedly shown to be baseless. Feevers provided with you numerous citations, and I provided you with at least 2, since my argument from authority did not appeal to you. Most significantly, you tried to claim that money was being made via artificial inflation of mortality data- that hospitals were making money, for example, by claiming that people who died of car accident injuries and also happened to have covid19 were listing covid19 as cause of death in order to make money. This is not how money is given out. The hospital only gets the money allocated to covid payients if the patient is admitted to the hospital to BE TREATED FOR COVID19. If they are dead on arrival and covid is discovered on autopsy, they do not get money for that. This is simply a fact. Not only do I know this fact based on extensive personal experience, which apparently means nothing to you- I directly linked you to the page that explains how funds are allocated to hospitals based on patients' diagnostic related group. Facts are known on the basis of evidence. If you have no real evidence about X, you cannot claim to know any facts about it.

Since money is demonstrably NOT a compelling reason to list covid19 as cause of death, if you want to claim that the hospitals have some incentive to be inflating the number of covid19 deaths, you need to state what that incentive is, and how the process works.

I have stated very clearly that fraud exists. Referrals, kickbacks, and unnecessary diagnostics are frequently used to commit fraud. I see no evidence of fraud being committed with relation to covid19 treatment.

To be clear, I couldnt care less about "proving you wrong". I am just a truth seeker. I happen to be in a position that makes me very familiar with how to go about arriving at the truth in this case. Sometimes the truth isnt all that interesting. But we have quite frankly handed you the truth about this on a silver platter. When I dont know the truth about something and someone who is in a position to know it makes it as accessible to me as we have made it to you, I express gratitude rather than contempt.

If you do happen to have REAL EVIDENCE of fraud being committed, please share, and I will be grateful to know the truth.


Edited by morrowasted (08/19/20 05:34 PM)


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Invisiblecannabinated
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26888914 - 08/19/20 05:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

so whats the deal with this new strain thats 10x deadlier?


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: cannabinated]
    #26888985 - 08/19/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

no clue. someone posted an article about it. if it really is significantly "deadlier" then like koods said, it wont be able to compete with the strains currently circulating. i'm not an expert on all things covid related, I just know some things about how it's being treated here and some things about healthcare fraud


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26889011 - 08/19/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

He didn't provide proof of anything, he's the man one denying it even happens


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151] * 1
    #26889012 - 08/19/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
No one here has said there is no corruption.
So don't try and twist the narrative.

They have queried the levels.

Fundamentally it's corrupted from the beggining....I mean for Christ sakes look at the difference in outcomes from private health to state run hospitals....step through the morality there.

Extending out from the fact that corruption exists in all capatilist industry to state that the Covid numbers are being recorded higher than they actually are is What you are arguing.

I think that this is a very minor number and you have been sucked into the vortex of "anything to to prove it isnt as bad as they say" club.

But it's worked...here we are distracted from reality.:elmo:



thats bullshit. I had a whole conversation about it here about a week ago and several people claiming to be in the loop was saying that it doesn't happen,  that doctors and nurses wouldn't risk their licenses over it, so don't tell me no one is saying that it doesn't happen. because they did!.  I don't care if you guys don't want to accept that there are folks making a killing off covid19, their is plenty of incentive for fraud to take place, some took offense that I mentioned it, but its fact. This virus is being blown out of proportion for both political and monetary gain.




The "conversation" was you angrily insulting people and putting words into their mouths while desperately clinging to your baseless conspiracy theory that was disproven months ago, using one article that literally doesn't even exist as your "proof". You disregarded all of the contrary evidence linked directly from the department of HHS, legislative info detailing exactly how funds are allocated, interviews with hospital workers, on top of morrow's first hand clinical experience and my wife's administrative experience with how the virus is actually being handled in hospitals that are currently being swamped by it.

Fraud happens all the time. The specific fraud conspiracy you were pushing (tens of thousands of dollars for every positive covid test with no hospitalization) is non-existent as can be seen by looking at the clearly and thoroughly detailed federal fund allocations that I linked to or even simply reading the bill, and even if it that type of fraud were possible it would be dumb, because it would require a network of low level employees who would see no benefit at all from the fraud risking their licenses and possibly jail/fines in order to commit it, and in many cases would be less profitable than the very many tried and true low-risk ways of overbilling medicare and insurance.

So far you seem to be completely incapable of having a factual or even reality-based discussion on the issue. Maybe you should try to listen/understand more and talk less, unfortunately that ability is much rarer than it should be with docs. :wink:


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: feevers] * 1
    #26889042 - 08/19/20 07:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

just to make things crystal clear, the current form of doc's "argument" appears to be

1) some healthcare fraud happens
2)y'all are denying that some healthcare fraud happens

∴ therefore people are committing healthcare fraud by falsely inflating covid mortality data


even if premise 2 weren't blatantly false, the conclusion would not in any way follow from 1 and 2. this "argument" does not even come close to approaching soundness OR validity


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151] * 1
    #26889046 - 08/19/20 07:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

ya know,  instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. why don't you address my question? If it is not about money, why are they fudging the numbers? I personally know of several people that have had family members die of heart attacks and cancer since this started and it plainly lists covid19 on the death certificate. why would they do that if it wasn't about money because there is no other reason for it to happen.

I didn't put words anyones mouth. I received smart-ass replies from my first post and denial from certain people that it even takes place. hell yeah I'll angrily defend my position when someone wants to insult me. Now answer what I stated above and I will shutuo


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151]
    #26889056 - 08/19/20 07:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Feevers flat out said that health care fraud doesn't happen and that's when I started my rant, my mistake in the beginning was not using quotes and responding to multiple people.  my entire point has been that  Health care fraud happens,  numbers with the virus are being manipulated,  billions in federal funding is being pumped into the system. Fraud is taking place and for him to categorically deny it even happens is offensive. I get wanting to defend something that you care about but be realistic.  No one has been able to explain to me why the only super power on the planet is still reporting the highest infection rates in the world? We have the best health care in the world but the far left liberals want us to believe that we are failing and the numbers are being fudged to back up their agenda for both political and monetary reasons and nothing else that I can think of.

If I'm wrong, please explain to me how third world countries are able to get it under control but not the U.S.?

edit: and don't say its because of the President because thats bullshit


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (08/19/20 07:36 PM)


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InvisiblefeeversM
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151]
    #26889081 - 08/19/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
ya know,  instead of saying I don't know what I'm talking about. why don't you address my question? If it is not about money, why are they fudging the numbers? I personally know of several people that have had family members die of heart attacks and cancer since this started and it plainly lists covid19 on the death certificate. why would they do that if it wasn't about money because there is no other reason for it to happen.

I didn't put words anyones mouth. I received smart-ass replies from my first post and denial from certain people that it even takes place. hell yeah I'll angrily defend my position when someone wants to insult me. Now answer what I stated above and I will shutuo




I addressed your initial question previously and you ignored my response completely, now you're shifting the goal posts from your testing conspiracy to a deaths one.

I don't have the time to research it further, but from what I can remember there is no extra money awarded for COVID deaths, the 20% medicare surcharge is tied to admission with a diagnosis. The numbers are all in my original response to you weeks ago.

The number of people who would die of causes completely unrelated to a pandemic virus, during the 7-14 (avg) days of their life that the virus was detectable in their systems, is obviously statistically insignificant due to how ridiculously rare that would be, especially when considering the many false-negatives, deaths before diagnosis, and deaths indirectly caused by COVID complications that are occuring.

If anything, covid deaths are heavily underreported
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26667335#26667335


Edited by feevers (08/19/20 08:13 PM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151] * 4
    #26889094 - 08/19/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If it is not about money, why are they fudging the numbers?


it's your responsibility to come up with a claim about the incentive and defend it.

doing so involves proving the question you just begged: "why are they fudging the numbers?"

Quote:

I personally know of several people that have had family members die of heart attacks and cancer since this started and it plainly lists covid19 on the death certificate.


this is a claim that you COULD evidence, if you really wanted to. show us the death certificates and the medical records with personal information blacked out.

Unfortunately though, even if you do that, you still won't have "proved" what you think you've proved. Please read everything I am about to say with an open mind and just try to understand it. I'm not an expert about very many things, but this is one of them: 

If we DID NOT list covid as a cause of death, THAT would be an attempt to obscure a very real truth from you about the world- that truth being that DESPITE the presence of chronic diseases, many of those people would have gone to live many years longer if they had not contracted covid19.

COVID can absolutely precipitate heart attacks. In fact, death by heart attack is a very common reason that people with covid die. I've seen it happen at work. Covid makes people's livers and kidneys fail (I've discussed exactly how this happens in much greater detail earlier in the thread). The liver synthesizes and release blood clotting and clot-busting chemicals. When the liver fails, this process gets thrown out of whack. In fact, we measure the levels of these chemicals by drawing blood in order to
1) estimate how likely the patient is to die without treatment
2) determine how intensively the patient will need to be monitored for problems related to this blood clotting disorder (which is referred to as disseminated intravascular coagulation), such as heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism.
3) determine what medications and blood products the patient might need to help them survive. We may give a drug called heparin, which prevents blood from coagulating by interfering with the action of vitamin K. We may give a drug called alteplase (tissue plasminogen activator), which is naturally produced by the liver (but which is not produced in sufficient quantities when the liver fails) to break apart already existing clots in the blood.

These clots can also migrate to the kidneys, which- in addition to the fact that the arteries have become very dilated as a result of the immune system releasing many inflammatory chemicals (because of covid19)- reduces and/or cuts off the supply of oxygen to the kidneys and causes them to fail. The kidneys are responsible for regulating the amount of fluid in your bloodstream. more importantly, with respect to COVID-19, they are responsible for regulating the levels of electrolytes like potassium. When potassium builds up in the bloodstream (a condition called hyperkalemia), the rhythm of the heartbeat begins to malfunction because potassium is involved in the process of relaxing the heart muscle.

these two processes are very common for severe covid patients. my own uncle died from a heart attack and covid19 was discovered on autopsy. in fact, covid19 was NOT listed as the cause of death in his case- cause of death was ruled "ST-Elevation Myocardial Infarction". However, it could easily be argued that covid19 was the upstream cause of his heart attack. The number of cases in which a patient's ACUTE cause of death was actually a COMPLICATION of covid19, but covid19 was NOT listed as one of the causes of deaths, VASTLY outnumbers the cases in which patients had covid19 listed as a cause of death but it wasn't one- you need only compare the number of deaths by heart attack/stroke/ARDS/etc in the last month LAST year to the number THIS year and use a little common sense to realize there MUST be an explanation for the fact that so many more people are dying of those things right now, and the only major difference is the fact that a new virus is circulating. Then compare the total number of deaths this week against the number of deaths listed as having been caused by covid, and you can easily see that they are being under-reported.

COVID19 can ALSO speed up the death of a patient with metastatic cancer. Cancer is very complicated, but patients with cancer have reduced immune cell function, AND problems  with electrolytes (LIKE POTASSIUM) and blood blotting factors. In fact, many cancer patients THEMSELVES die of heart attacks.

BUT, when a cancer patient dies of a heart attack, we list cancer as the cause of death, because the cancer is considered to be the primary precipitator of the set of problems that eventually led the patient to have a heart attack.

In the same way, a patient who is getting treated for covid who goes on to have a a heart attack, stroke, or pulmonary embolism and die often does and SHOULD have Covid19 listed as a cause of death (although in these cases, both are frequently listed). This is because, like with cancer and heart attacks, COVID19 is considered to be the primary precipitator of the set of problems that eventually led the patient to have a heart attack, stroke, or pulmonary embolism.

This is not an attempt to "trick you". Yes, the fact that many of these patients have pre-existing heart disease, kidney disease, and cancer plays a role in the fact that a greater proportion of them die after contracting covid.

Again: If we DID NOT list covid as a cause of death, THAT would be an attempt to obscure a very real truth from you about the world- that truth being that DESPITE the presence of those chronic diseases, many of those people would have gone to live many years longer if they had not contracted covid19.


Please tell me that some of this is getting through to you. This is my life right now. This is my work. This is my passion. I am trying so hard to make this easy for you to understand.


Edited by morrowasted (08/19/20 08:28 PM)


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted]
    #26889115 - 08/19/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I understand that if they actually had the virus,  but these people didn't. never tested positive or showed antibodies.  There was no reason to put on the death certificate and I'll tell you what. my father is terminal. he Doesn't have the virus but he's eat slap up with cancer, when he dies, its going to be from cancer and if it shows up on his I will be happy to post it. obviously  I can't go to my friends and say hey let me post your relatives death certificate online,  even with the private information blackest they would tell me to fuckoff.

They aren't the only ones that has happened too. there are thousands of stories out there,  even reported by the mainstream media. If you didn't have it,  it didn't kill ya, not everyone is living in fear like some want us too.


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted] * 3
    #26889116 - 08/19/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Here's another way to think about it: In every single person, the "real" cause death is this: Their brain stopped getting oxygen for too long.

If someone has a heart attack, they die because their heart is no longer pumping oxygenated blood to their blood. This is why we do CPR. We literally PUSH oxygen into their lungs, and then we literally PUSH on the heart to force the blood to go pick up that oxygen and then keep flowing through the body. Why do we do this? We do this so that the brain continues to receive oxygenated blood. As long as this is happening, the patient is not dead. When your brain dies, THAT'S when you die.

If someone gets their legs cut off and they bleed out, they stay alive until their brain doesn't get oxygen for too long. In this case, the reason is that the blood carries the oxygen, and too much of it left the body. So we bind their legs to stop them from bleeding and put more blood inside them, if we catch it in time.

If someone has an ischemic stroke, they don't "fully die" unless/until the clot is blocking the parts of the brain that are essential for breathing and sending nerve impulses to the heart.

However, it would be completely and utterly useless to write down "Their brain stopped getting oxygen" on everyone's death certificate as the cause of death. What we want to know is what was the most significant factor leading up to that eventuality?

For many, many people right now, that most significant factor is COVID-19 infection


Edited by morrowasted (08/19/20 08:23 PM)


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151]
    #26889136 - 08/19/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

morrowasted. thanks for trying,  I'll keep my word and shutup. but your explanation doesn't make sense why someone whom never had the virus would be counted amongst the infected, if it wasn't for monetary or political gains. of course they would be counted if they had it, thats to be expected. Everything you said is for someone who has or had the virus,  that's not the people I'm talking about. I'm sorry but z disagree that covid19 is the leading of death. that's another leftist lie.


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (08/19/20 08:37 PM)


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted] * 3
    #26889149 - 08/19/20 08:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

not everyone is living in fear like some want us too.


We don't "want you to live in fear". I am CONSTANTLY exposed to people with this disease and I am VERY passionate about it. I go the store, I go to the gym, I hang out with my family, with my girlfriend. I just take appropriate precautions because I know for a fact what this virus is capable of doing, and I value my life and theirs. I definitely don't go to house parties, protests, concerts. That doesn't mean I'm "living in fear", it means I'm considerate of the people around me.

I am aware that SOME STATES have allowed "presumptive" diagnoses of COVID19 to be reported as COVID19 deaths. This means that a test was never performed. This largely occurred in the beginning of the pandemic when deaths were occurring at a staggeringly fast pace, testing was very slow, and epidemiologists needed data quickly. This definitely does not happen in my own state- Texas requires a positive diagnosis, meaning a test that specifically tests for COVID19, in order for COVID19 to be listed as a cause death. My understanding is that now that tests are readily available, reporting deaths on the basis of "presumptive diagnoses" is very uncommon even in places where it is allowed.

Please understand, though, even when a diagnosis is "presumptive", it's based on a set of clinical evidence. COVID19 patients present with a set of signs and symptoms. If someone had come in to the hospital with a fever, shortness of breath, cough, decreased PaO2 with normal PaCO2, and ground-glass opacities showing on chest x-ray, elevated CRP, d-dimer, interleukins, electrolyte imbalances reflective of kidney necrosis, altered fibrinogen: that person has all of the signs and symptoms you'd find in someone who DID test positive for and get sick with COVID19. Typically a presumptive diagnosis involves even more circumstantial evidence than that: their family brings them in and says they KNOW this person was exposed to someone who DID receive a positive COVID19 diagnosis.

I simply DO NOT believe that any doctor anywhere saw a patient who CLEARLY died of a heart attack, displayed NO symptoms of COVID19, and the doctor decided to rule covid19 the cause of death. I'm not saying it's NEVER HAPPENED, but based on my extensive experience, doctors simply do not do this. They have NO INCENTIVE to do this. If they did do this, the entire clinical team- nurses, radiologists, cytopathologists, respiratory therapists- would be seriously questioning that doctor. I will report a doctor who doesn't have their act together in a heartbeat. But I have NEVER seen a doctor do something that flagrant. I'm not a doctor. I'm a nurse, and if any single group of people thinks doctors get too much credit and deserve to be held to account, it's nurses. But even doctors who aren't great people aren't stupid, and every doctor knows that their license is constantly on the line. If we suspect they are doing something fraudulent, we will not hesitate to bring it to attention of the appropriate authorities.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim you're making is extraordinary, so unless you've got some extraordinary evidence to present- and not just more assertions that "there are thousands of stories" without linking to a single one of them for us to to scrutinize- I will continue to not take it seriously.


Edited by morrowasted (08/19/20 08:53 PM)


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OfflineDoc9151M
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Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #26889242 - 08/19/20 10:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I was going to drop it but sense you responded.


Now. that is the most intelligent response I have received thus far, thank you. I dont have Doc in my name to look special,  it means something to me but I have seen doctors do all kinds of things intentionally that could cost them their licenses, I've also seen other doctors and staff cover for individuals.  It's one of the reasons I went on to further my career and became a PA, because I don't go for thar behavior either and wanted to make a difference.  Unfortunately,  strokes happened and that was all sidelined but I didn't forget about what I witnessed. Nothing has changed because most people supporting the medical staff (administration, executives) they are in it for the money and responsible for most of the corruption that takes place. However,  there are doctors  nurses the like ripping off the system every time they include something in the billing they didn't provide and that happens with every single surgery. One of my jobs was processing insurance claims from civilian providers, I know for a fact that hospitals blanket bill for surgeries, That is where they bill for packing, tubing, instruments  etc even if it wasn't used, they bill for it because it could be used and there's no way for anyone to prove otherwise. I have assisted in the surgery of a military member on my ship, being the only medical person on the ship it was my responsibility to settle the bill, so, I know what I am talking about because I was in the room when the procedure was done. They even bill for medication not provided.

I want to make a point about what you said about doctors and  nurse's and codes. Yes. you the nurse or doctor my write something down,  but that's not the end of the process. the icd codes that are on the final billing are not verified by you are they? I already know the answer, it's no. you don't verify it so you don't have a clue what billing is doing because thry don't report to you. One of the benefits of being in the U.S. Coast Guard Health services is that I was exposed to every facet of the system because we are a small service doing big job. I worked with both military and civilian providers,  it's been a minute,  but I'm willing to bet my entire pension Nothing has changed.


--------------------


Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (08/19/20 10:04 PM)


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Invisiblepineninja
Dream Weaver
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Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151]
    #26889396 - 08/20/20 03:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
No one here has said there is no corruption.
So don't try and twist the narrative.

They have queried the levels.

Fundamentally it's corrupted from the beggining....I mean for Christ sakes look at the difference in outcomes from private health to state run hospitals....step through the morality there.

Extending out from the fact that corruption exists in all capatilist industry to state that the Covid numbers are being recorded higher than they actually are is What you are arguing.

I think that this is a very minor number and you have been sucked into the vortex of "anything to to prove it isnt as bad as they say" club.

But it's worked...here we are distracted from reality.:elmo:



thats bullshit. I had a whole conversation about it here about a week ago and several people claiming to be in the loop was saying that it doesn't happen,  that doctors and nurses wouldn't risk their licenses over it, so don't tell me no one is saying that it doesn't happen. because they did!.  I don't care if you guys don't want to accept that there are folks making a killing off covid19, their is plenty of incentive for fraud to take place, some took offense that I mentioned it, but its fact. This virus is being blown out of proportion for both political and monetary gain.



Quote:

Doc9151 said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
No one here has said there is no corruption.
So don't try and twist the narrative.

They have queried the levels.

Fundamentally it's corrupted from the beggining....I mean for Christ sakes look at the difference in outcomes from private health to state run hospitals....step through the morality there.

Extending out from the fact that corruption exists in all capatilist industry to state that the Covid numbers are being recorded higher than they actually are is What you are arguing.

I think that this is a very minor number and you have been sucked into the vortex of "anything to to prove it isnt as bad as they say" club.

But it's worked...here we are distracted from reality.:elmo::wonka:




--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisiblefeeversM
Male

Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 8,546
Loc: Flag
Re: Viral outbreak in China [Re: Doc9151] * 1
    #26889675 - 08/20/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
I want to make a point about what you said about doctors and  nurse's and codes. Yes. you the nurse or doctor my write something down,  but that's not the end of the process. the icd codes that are on the final billing are not verified by you are they? I already know the answer, it's no. you don't verify it so you don't have a clue what billing is doing because thry don't report to you.




The money is tied to COVID diagnosed admissions, not deaths, so you're essentially saying that medical coders are committing felonies en masse by going back into the records of people who never had covid, and falsifying days or weeks of data to make it appear that they were admitted and being treated for COVID. Medicare/medicaid deny claims over the most minor inconsistencies. That data would still be in EPIC or whatever software the hospital uses. The code would need to be consistent with the hospital staff's clinical notes and documentation for insurance review and audit. The hospital staff on covid floors are likely intimately familiar with how many people on their floor are dying, and they would speak up if they noticed a discrepancy in what was being reported from what they know to be true.

Why would they go this far simply for a 20% medicare surcharge, when there are so many other codes and procedures that they could bill for fraudulently that would be far lower risk and more profitable? Why not claim that someone who died from a heart attack had been there for a hip replacement when they died, or the person came into the ER and they attempted a bypass that never actually happened? That would make them double or more what COVID would. Reporting for cause of death often can't be an exact science, and many hospitals will always milk reimbursements as much as they can get away with, but there is simply no evidence of anything like this happening on any sort of scale. You as a doctor (well, a PA apparently?) using a bogus conspiracy to downplay the severity of a pandemic virus goes directly against the oath you took.

Has it even occurred to you that it's just a case of Occam's razor, and a deadly virus is doing what a deadly virus does, and being deadly. There's plenty of debate to be had on the response and the economics of it, but the severity of it is blatantly obvious. Caution and concern in the face of this virus, especially for those around you who may be more at risk, has nothing to do with fear and instead is centered in rational thinking and compassion.


Edited by feevers (08/20/20 08:43 AM)


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