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morrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] 4
#26844573 - 07/25/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Allow me to quote you
Quote:
5697 deaths total in Sweden. Half of that aprx. in nursing homes. So only 2800~ elders murdered with bentzo/morfin combo
I am not bitter at all. I'm actually going out of my way to try to be helpful and explain to you how healthcare works. One of the very first things you learn in any kind of medical/nursing/EMT school is how to deal with a large disaster where many people need treatment. This is the model, it's in the very beginning of the comprehensive text.

As you can see, black tagged patients are determined by assessment to be very likely to die even if you attempt to treat them. For black tagged patients, the only medications that are administered are pain meds, to ease the pain of dying. This is humane.
Red tag patients receive priority care. In, for example, a bomb scenario, these are people with punctured lungs, fractured skulls, large third degree burns. With the right treatment, they CAN live.
Yellow tagged patients receive second priority. These patients are very likely to live if treated.
Finally, minor injuries are green tagged. These patients may not need any treatment at all.
Black tagging people does not constitute murder. If we were to call black tagging murder, I could easily argue that focusing medical resources on black tagged patients also constitutes murder, because it will result in the death of many red tagged patients, who need to be treated immediately in order to survive.
The point of this system is to allocate resources in such a way that maximizes the number of lives that can be saved with treatment.
Covid is one massive disaster. The entire world is becoming a disaster zone. As medical resources become increasingly limited, the proportion of patients that get black tagged grows, so that those resources can be allocated in the most effective way possible.
Within the context of the covid disaster, patients requiring things like regular hemodialysis are likely to be among the first people black tagged. These are people with End Stage Renal Disease who already continue to live ONLY because they are receiving hemodialysis several times per week- if they stop receiving it, they die. You simply cannot give many of the treatments used for covid with this patient population, and even when you do, they're likely to die anyway. I literally see this happen at work- we try to treat people with end stage renal disease who have covid, and they typically die anyway.
What you are telling me is that in effect, Sweden has relatively limited medical resources in comparison with the USA, and is therefore choosing to "black tag" certain elderly patients in nursing homes, which means that they can only receive pain medication. There may come a point when even this country has to decide to "black tag" hemodialysis patients, for example, because of increasingly limited resources and growing demand for treatment.
I can tell you that no healthcare worker here is complicit with forced euthanasia. We would walk out. What DOES happen is that "black tagged" patients, if conscious and coherent, are given the option to receive pain medication. Those patients are ALLOWED to request as much pain medication as they want, which means in effect that we are giving them to opportunity to EUTHANIZE THEMSELVES. The alternative is that they can choose to simply try to survive covid without medical treatment.
I do not think that the Swedish government made the right move by choosing not to lock down, and it seems to me, if what you are saying is true, the elderly population is bearing the brunt of that decision. The healthcare workers in Sweden did not make the decision not to lock down the country. They are simply dealing with the situation that they are forced to deal with. I am not in Sweden, so I cannot say for certain, but it would shock me very much if nurses in Sweden were complicit with a policy of FORCING black tagged patients to receive a lethal amount of pain medication. This constitutes murder.
What I SUSPECT might be happening is that they are giving elderly people who become diagnosed with COVID19 the OPTION to receive palliative care. Some of those people may be choosing to SELF-EUTHANIZE. Some of them may simply be receiving pain medication until they inevitably die OF COVID19. This is not murder.
If anyone is guilty of something, it's the Swedish goverment, and what they are guilty of is something more like criminal mismanagement than murder- in the same way that Dyatlov was in the Chernobyl explosion.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted] 2
#26844936 - 07/25/20 04:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said: Maybe in your country.
"Sweden and Finland are not the center of the world."

How IS Covid affecting the mole and magma people, anyway?
I would think the heat would prevent the virus from spreading, but people said the same thing about the U.S. in summertime, and look what happened.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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morrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#26845006 - 07/25/20 06:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah I expected the same but things are really bad here in Houston. Could be the air conditioning contributing to it. Maybe it it is not so bad in really hot places where there isnt much air conditioning. Figures coming out of places like ecuador, brazil and africa... yeah, I honestly dont know. Densest of vibes to the people and health workers there regardless
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feevers


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted]
#26845035 - 07/25/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd guess that if its genetics did originate in bats then normal hot temps wouldn't be much of a problem, bat caves get pretty steamy when they're all huddled up. Would make sense that it doesn't withstand sunlight well.
I heard on the radio recently that many HEPA filters are able to properly filter out the virus from circulating air, not super helpful for long durations of being in someone's direct breathing line but could be useful in a lot of ways. Not 100% sure it's been proven though or which filters are best
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koods
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: feevers]
#26845036 - 07/25/20 06:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Most air filters work the same way as n95 masks. The fibers have an electrical charge that attracts particles and traps them
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Saul Ptamets
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: koods]
#26845288 - 07/25/20 10:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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masks are only used for yourself, so it should be legal for me to not have to wear a mask, right??
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Saul Ptamets
FairlyUnbalanced

Registered: 07/15/20
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Saul Ptamets]
#26845292 - 07/25/20 10:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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did u also know 95% of people who go on ventilators die? we probably shouldn't be putting people on ventilators since we know there is a slim chance
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morrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Saul Ptamets] 3
#26845302 - 07/25/20 10:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Only thing youre gonna get out of me is a yikes,
funny username though
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Psion
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Saul Ptamets] 1
#26845321 - 07/25/20 11:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Saul Ptamets said: masks are only used for yourself, so it should be legal for me to not have to wear a mask, right??
wrong.
they're used to protect others from you, not to protect you from others. indirectly though, they protect you from others when people use them en masse, similar to how vaccines protect you via herd immunity when a high % of the population is inoculated, even if you yourself are not vaccinated to that particular virus.
the purpose of the mask is to slow down/entrap the moisture from your breath when you speak and breathe, which the virus particles are carried on, in case you happen to be sick with the virus despite showing no symptoms (all too common.) the virus particles may be tiny enough to easily slip through the mask, but your breath is not a desiccated desert - it's a very moist environment. the virus is spread via aerosol instead, carried in the much larger water droplets that get attracted to the mask, or at least drastically slowed down (and fly much less further and lingering in the air far less longer than they would without the mask, greatly reducing their chances of infecting another person.)
this is especially important when talking, or gods forbid, when singing. you're practically spraying the virus into the air then like a living lysol can of death if you're hot.
Quote:
Saul Ptamets said: did u also know 95% of people who go on ventilators die? we probably shouldn't be putting people on ventilators since we know there is a slim chance
the ventilators thing is something that doctors are figuring out more now - who needs to go on them and who should stay off. remember, when the virus first hit, no one knew anything about how to treat it. the survival rate seems to be improving a bit now as doctors are figuring out certain drug combos to ease some symptoms, when patients should go on the ventilators and when they should be left off, and certain techniques like turning them on their... i think it was turning them on their bellies to improve breathing? or maybe it was their sides or something.
regardless though, correlation does not =/= causation. just because 95% of people who go on ventilators die, does not mean the ventilators cause the deaths. just like how 100% of people who drink water die, but drinking water does not cause death. see how stupid that statistic sounds? if you're in bad enough shape to go on a ventilator, you're in very. bad. shape. it means your lungs have gone and said "nope, sorry boss, we give up, we're going on strike, go find yourself some other breathing apparatus".
Edited by Psion (07/25/20 11:17 PM)
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LeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Psion]
#26845449 - 07/26/20 02:44 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Joe Rogan had a quest who was one of the early covid patients in usa. He sais that the thing that saved his life was that he was no put on ventilator.
And as far as tagging somebody red or black. Morrow this is not it.
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feevers


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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] 2
#26845512 - 07/26/20 04:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
LeningradCowboy said: Joe Rogan had a quest who was one of the early covid patients in usa. He sais that the thing that saved his life was that he was no put on ventilator.
That doesn't really make much sense and there's no way someone could know that.
Some hospitals/doctors might be a little more liberal in who they put on a vent, especially early on with covid, but in general you get put on one when your body can't breathe on its own without one. Saying most people who get put on vents die is like saying most people who recieve emergency brain surgery for gunshot wounds die, it's not the surgery that kills them. If even 20% of people who otherwise would have died are able to recover because a vent keeps them alive, that's still an extremely effective intervention.
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LeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted] 1
#26845526 - 07/26/20 05:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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The guys doctor had thesis that putting somebody on ventilator for long time makes your lungs stop breathing for them selfs.
Quote:
morrowasted said:
I am not in Sweden, so I cannot say for certain, but it would shock me very much if nurses in Sweden were complicit with a policy of FORCING black tagged patients to receive a lethal amount of pain medication. This constitutes murder.
What I SUSPECT might be happening is that they are giving elderly people who become diagnosed with COVID19 the OPTION to receive palliative care. Some of those people may be choosing to SELF-EUTHANIZE. Some of them may simply be receiving pain medication until they inevitably die OF COVID19. This is not murder.
If anyone is guilty of something, it's the Swedish goverment, and what they are guilty of is something more like criminal mismanagement than murder- in the same way that Dyatlov was in the Chernobyl explosion.
exactly what happened.
There is testimony from nurse on the links I added
"The health authorities have received many complaints about how elderly relatives were treated. A consistent theme is that nursing home residents with suspected Covid-19 were immediately placed on palliative care and given morphine and denied supplementary oxygen and intravenous fluids and nutrition. For many this was effectively a death sentence."
“People suffocated, it was horrible to watch. One patient asked me what I was giving him when I gave him the morphine injection, and I lied to him,” said Latifa Löfvenberg, a nurse. “Many died before their time. It was very, very difficult.”
From here.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/deadly-covid-discrimination-against-the-elderly-in-sweden/
Please read the story before saying that this is not happening or you think it went way x or y.
This is not tagging to optimize use of resources. This is murder. Free beds in er when this happened.
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doctorghosty
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy] 1
#26845828 - 07/26/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This thread had a nice run. See you guys around
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Ice9
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: LeningradCowboy]
#26845852 - 07/26/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw
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Niffla



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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: doctorghosty]
#26845877 - 07/26/20 10:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
doctorghosty said: This thread had a nice run. See you guys around
one day (and sooner rather than later) the chicken wing thread will surpass this thread
this thread has jumped the shark
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HAIL OUR NEW OTD KING
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Niffla]
#26845913 - 07/26/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Niffla said:
Quote:
doctorghosty said: This thread had a nice run. See you guys around
one day (and sooner rather than later) the chicken wing thread will surpass this thread
this thread has jumped the shark
Unlike Happy Days this topic has millions of sharks.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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morrowasted
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: TheFakeSunRa] 2
#26846017 - 07/26/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200724104228.htm
In cell studies, seaweed extract outperforms remdesivir in blocking COVID-19 virus Heparin, a common anitcoagulent, could also form basis of a viral trap for SARS-CoV-2
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mushboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: morrowasted]
#26846030 - 07/26/20 12:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Seaweed extract eh?
Should I start eating my petri dishes🤔
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Niffla



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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: mushboy]
#26846070 - 07/26/20 12:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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One good thing at least is that the early covid panic with the rush to get food and supplies to buy us all some time in the event of the impending apocalypse has proved to be not anything close to what everyone all initially feared.
Grocery stores, at least around here in Dallas (and Dallas has been one of the harder hit cities recently suffering quite a tough second wave) are still completely fine with no shortages. And this is after the first huge panic and then another large wave and things are still fine as far as the shelves go. Just walking though the store yesterday one wouldn't even know we were in the midst of a pandemic if you just judged the shelves.
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LeningradCowboy
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Re: Viral outbreak in China - Coronavirus Pandemic 2020 [Re: Ice9] 1
#26846076 - 07/26/20 12:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- From tundra with love!
FREE HAMHEAD 2020!
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