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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446000 - 01/22/20 10:00 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That's the thing, the absence of evidence is what is interesting. Obviously you can't prove a negative, but it's more of an intriguing thought experiment than anything. Ultimately we can't know the answer.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26446008 - 01/22/20 10:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Well absence of evidence for one may not be absence of evidence for another. What is the hard line that Fermi is proposing we have not crossed? Do we know that? Or is it purposefully vague to keep a shifting goalpost?

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446013 - 01/22/20 10:07 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think there is a hard line. The Drake equation came later, which gave a mathematical basis to Fermi's informal paradox, but even it makes estimates that could be horribly wrong. Ultimately it's extremely non-rigorous.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26446026 - 01/22/20 10:13 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Then it seems that it is unsolvable because there is no solution that will meet the non-existent criteria :thumbup:

Each person will draw that line for themselves and some will be convinced by some things and others not.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446066 - 01/22/20 10:31 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

tothestarsacademy claims to have physical evidence and is in round 2 of funding their 'venture' which is apparenty staffed by NASA scientists as well as creatives who have put together some books and will be releasing a movie I guess as well as -- well they have insinuated that, in having actual fragments of materials from UFO's -- new products will be forthcoming.

I wanted to invest, but foreign investment is not permitted due to the company having access to federal secrets etc.

Citizens of USA may invest.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26446111 - 01/22/20 10:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Well you could consider me a transcendentalist on this topic. I don't really care about the social mores with regards to aliens. For me it's a more personal thing. A bit like dreams although even more isolated in time.

A physical manifestation is a neat phenomena but doesn't really mean nearly as much as other elements in my experiences.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446110 - 01/22/20 10:51 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Then it seems that it is unsolvable because there is no solution that will meet the non-existent criteria :thumbup:

Each person will draw that line for themselves and some will be convinced by some things and others not.





Absolutely. Doesn't mean it doesn't make for good conversation.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446117 - 01/22/20 10:54 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

yeah I agree I just wanted clarification. I didn't want to tackle it as a problem to be solved if there was no way to get there. If it's just discussing personal stance it shifts the approach for me :thumbup:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446130 - 01/22/20 10:59 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Oh, indeed.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26447448 - 01/23/20 12:31 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes, our institutions and our leaders, and Trump, are a reflection of ourselves. If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





*Points to last quote in signature* :sunny:


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26447864 - 01/23/20 09:36 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.





How do you mean?


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Invisiblepacmanbreed
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26448084 - 01/23/20 12:06 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Truth indeed cuts/hurts that WE try to ignore.

Edited by pacmanbreed (01/23/20 07:45 PM)

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26449280 - 01/24/20 03:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.





How do you mean?




People will defend irrational ideology vs contradictory data almost always.

A right winger and left winger are going to have very different views on morality (due to, surprise! Incompatible Metaphysical premises!).

Both will defend their incomplete positions to the point of self-sabotage and redundancy, regardless of the veracity or accuracy of their claims.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26450092 - 01/24/20 01:59 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yes they will. Robert Anton Wilson called this the phenomenon of "reality tunnels," which are completely subjective and made up of a slew of programming that its "owners" will go to inevitably, even despite contrary evidence staring them in the face. This has relevance for almost all human interactions and behaviors, if not all.

There seems to be no reliable evidence one way or the other when it comes to alien activity, but people hold strong opinions either way. As Rahz pointed out earlier in the thread, the logical default position is that there are no aliens (especially given the paradox which is the subject of this thread), or at least it is meaningless to suppose there are. But logic and human thinking seem rarely to go together, as you point out.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26450288 - 01/24/20 04:13 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

As always, it seems to me, the assumptions we make, while being unaware we are making them, are instructive.
One assumption here is that we are a unified separate biological organism, besides the microbiome, it is also known, that:  "although most of a cell's DNA is contained in the cell nucleus, the mitochondrion has its own independent genome that shows substantial similarity to bacterial genomes." and " Though mitochondria are an integral part of the cell, evidence shows that they evolved from primitive bacteria. "
So we are already chimeras composed of a microbiome, mitochondria in most cells with alien/ bacterial DNA, and vast quantities of viral genetic material in our DNA. We also host many parasites.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human+parasites+common+to+most+people&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mitochondria&ia=about

Another assumption here is that we are a unified separate self, but that illusion, has been discussed much here and elsewhere.

"Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind
by Robert Kurzban " is a non-Buddhist, scientific treatment of some aspects of this  subject.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26450390 - 01/24/20 05:25 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, whenever boundaries are drawn within the whole, confusion inevitably arises. And we see a lot of confusion about.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26450734 - 01/24/20 08:14 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Modularity of Mind by Robert Kurzban on youtube

Another consequence of this view is that in a sense, when the mind is not seen as unitary, then some of the modules are in a sense alien to each other. If so then the search for exterior aliens is in a sense partially misguided.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26451895 - 01/25/20 01:32 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Another consequence of this view is that in a sense, when the mind is not seen as unitary, then some of the modules are in a sense alien to each other. If so then the search for exterior aliens is in a sense partially misguided.






That indicates an interesting psychological dimension. Perhaps a big part of the belief in aliens, and all the disparate sightings of what are thought to be alien craft, is due to psychological dynamics. Some unresolved fragmentation, or suppressed desires, or a perceived lack of some kind, might make one more prone to hope and wish for, and consequently perceive, what are identified as aliens. That could certainly be an element of it. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, sightings of supernatural phenomena are nothing new.

In the middle ages, until recently, it was not aliens but gods, saints and angels which visited people constantly. Once again remaining purely agnostic about these subjects, it seems there is some psychological tie here, and whether it's the virgin Mary or aliens may not matter per se, but rather could give us a clue that something ontologically deeper is happening, whether or not anything supernatural is or could be involved.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26457739 - 01/28/20 10:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Then there's DMT entities and ghosts and Jung's collective unconscious, that various people believe in.

Anyway, on the biological dimension, re us being  "chimeras composed of a microbiome, mitochondria in most cells with alien/ bacterial DNA, and vast quantities of viral genetic material in our DNA. We also host many parasites. " Now that we have DNA analysis it has also been discovered, that not only do we specifically have some neanderthal genes, but those of of some other hominids as well. Apparently when it comes to sex, and no one is watching xenophobia is often over come.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26458399 - 01/29/20 11:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I just wish information related to this were not suppressed automatically to be released in several years.

As a side effect everything becomes a matter of conspiracy and fakery.

It makes some sense that other beings exist besides just us, but it also makes some sense that life never happened except here.

the DNA accident is more than just a DNA accident, it is also an accident of transcription to proteins and organelle formation within proto-life forms - producing the archaea over millions/billions of years - then bacteria, then cellular life and the rest.  but if it happened more rapidly then it probably has happened elsewhere as well.


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