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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens?
    #26440258 - 01/18/20 01:33 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

The Fermi paradox is the contradiction between the fact that, according to mathematical calculations, the probability of detectable alien activity is estimated to be quite high, yet there is no reliable evidence of their existence. Even according to common sense – i.e. if there are billions of solar systems in our own galaxy – there should be many alien species around, and Fermi is alleged to have remarked, “But where is everybody?”

The statistical argument is that there are indeed billions of suitable stars in the Milky Way galaxy, many tens or hundreds of millions of these stars should (with high probability) have planets suitable for life, many millions of these should have the capacity for intelligent life and civilization, many of which would presumably eventually develop interstellar travel. Even estimating the development of cosmic exploration at a slow pace, the entire Milky Way could be traversed and explored in only a few million years. Since many of the stars in our galaxy are billions of years older than our Sun, it would seem that plenty of time has been provided.

So, as Fermi asks, “Where is everybody?”

The three main explanations for the lack of traffic are these: Intelligent extraterrestrial beings evolve extremely rarely (or never); the lifetime of civilizations is quite short; and that they exist but we cannot see them (perhaps they exist in higher dimensions, don’t want to be seen (listening but not transmitting), what have you).

Other reasons are that most civilizations destroy themselves with their technology (e.g. nukes), intelligent civilizations are simply too far apart in space and time to make frequent contact with others, and that most intelligent species do not wish to leave their homes.

The Chinese author Cixin Liu believes it is impossibly dangerous to communicate. In his Three-Body trilogy, the whole premise is that any civilization that makes enough (or really any) noise will be conquered as soon as possible by much more powerful civilizations, in order to preserve the balance of power, and prevent upstarts. May sound strange, but look at Earth’s history. Often when peoples meet, there is intense violence. His books are amazing, by the way.

And some feel aliens are among us, and the government knows and is covering it up. I find this unconvincing, because governments are simply not powerful enough to hide something like that. Plus, over time it would get out, and it never has.

Obviously, this is all speculative, and so must such a thread be, but what are your thoughts on the matter? Do you feel one or several of the reasons given might be right, or do you have a few of your own? How would you answer Fermi’s paradox?


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26440276 - 01/18/20 01:48 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

I think about this a lot. In my opinion, the options that I think are the most likely are either that life is extremely rare, or that life doesn't last. Between the two, given the size of the universe or even the size of the galaxy and the number of planets we've discovered in the habitable zone, I think the second option is more likely.

I think it's likely that something is killing off life after it arises. Whether it's a natural disaster or life annihilating itself, I'm not sure. Maybe there is some very rare but very dangerous astronomical event (kinda like the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs) that always inevitably ends up killing off life, but it seems unlikely to me that all life would be unable to predict or avoid something in nature. Surely some life somewhere would be smart enough or lucky enough to correctly recognize the threat.

Given how war like and violent our civilization has been over the past 2000 years, and given how violent most people are in every day life even today, and given the power of the weapons and viruses we've developed... I think life consistently annihilating itself is a very real option.

On the other hand, if an asteroid from outside the solar system came in at just the right angle, it's likely no one would see it coming even if it was very large. And then bam, there goes humanity. So I think a natural event is also very realistic.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: nooneman]
    #26440414 - 01/18/20 03:13 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

From my reading I gather that it is only due to many coincidences that homo sapiens even exist.
Without the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs for example the mammals would probably never have become dominant.
Then there were times in Africa long ago, when the whole species was reduced to a small population.
There were many hominids, is Sapiens, just the accidental, survivor?
The human brain is really too big for birthing safely and easily thru the human pelvis.
Any evolutionist can find & point out many other, sub optimal aspects of human anatomy.
No native peoples wore glasses, in some ways we are de-volving.
Neanderthals brains were larger than ours.
The default mode for humans, is for emotion, the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason--hence the state of the world today.
We are not as special as we think we are.

Enrico Fermi was a physicist & mathematical guy, not a biologist. I'm sure he left a lot out of his calculations, with regards to the possibility of any really intelligent life.
Intelligence is not the "goal" of evolution. Out reproducing competitors within a niche is all "the goal" seems to be.
Even viruses that are simpler than any life form, give us a run for our money.
Ebola & Aids are just 2 well known examples.
About 50% of animals themselves are parasitic.
I think Enrico Fermi was a dreamer, as regards biology.


Edited by laughingdog (01/18/20 03:15 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26440481 - 01/18/20 04:18 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Good points by both above posters. Indeed, it was probably never quite likely that everything would line up so fortuitously as to produce humans, and then the typical human, we must remember, is a hunter-gatherer, who existed in the mode of evolution going back over four million years to australopithecus. So then, it is clear that the whole notion of space-faring and civilization at all is more of an unnatural anomaly than anything that was destined to happen. From that I take it that species interested in off-planet colonization may be quite rare after all. Certainly, the idea is quite new compared to the age of civilization (10,000 years), and that compared to the age of our species (about 200,000 years). So it helps, of course, for people to have things in perspective.

I personally tend to lean more toward, as I have indicated, unlikelihood. It may be phenomenally improbable that life itself could come into existence, making complex life, mammals, and animals with language even less likely. Then one might couple that with the fact that exploding outward into outer space is a meme peculiar to us, not necessarily an inevitable feature of any given culture. As indicated in the original post, it could be that many or most species who evolve technology might not be interested in leaving their home world. In the end, intelligent life that seeks to colonize the galaxy may be very unlikely to evolve. Of course, we don't really know.

It is interesting, though, that there is such a dearth of anyone or any signal. It is of course a possibility that aliens are out there and don't want to announce themselves to us, but then, one would have to conclude that there could be thousands of other species who would. All in all, a mystery for anyone who believes in aliens.

(I don't think Fermi himself had a horse in the race. He was merely addressing UFO claims bouncing around in the forties and fifties, and for him it was a math problem. In my readings I have only come across his suggestion of a paradox, not that he cared about aliens).


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26440744 - 01/18/20 08:15 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

I think we have been observed and allowed to find our own future,

Cost benefit wise, aliens should wait till we are able to build our own starships.

prob not in my lifetime...

I recently enjoyed "Unconventional Flying Objects: A Former NASA Scientist Explains How UFOs Really Work
Hill, Paul R."

Some aspects of UFO's are pretty much understood, though we have a technology gap.


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26440757 - 01/18/20 08:22 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

What do these two words mean to you?? "Dead Zone"


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26440767 - 01/18/20 08:28 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

I've thought about this before today and what appeared as the is missing link isn't where other intelligent civilizations existed but when. Even if we assume low odds, say for example one in a billion, that a single planet per system would spawn "advanced" society on it's surface then the dimension of time prevents us from communicating anyway. Assuming those odds, there's more than 250 other "advanced" civilizations in our galaxy and we are spread over more than 50,000 years of light and 13 billion years of history. That assumes that we can travel close to light speed as well which because of mass is impossible for living creatures, with current technology. So much time dimension reducing the odds of ever meeting again and again.

Even if we did spy a signal in the cosmos and made our way there the probability that the signal would be many thousands of years old by the time we got there is pretty high, then returning that information back to our plant in a communication form that would be understandable is really low because so much would have changed and the earth would no longer be in the same place either. Even if we developed time travel we wouldn't be able to get there either because the location of it would have changed significantly also. These sort of distances are literally inter-dimensional.

I would bet my own life that other life exists throughout the universe, but the odds of ever communicating with it are obtusely remote. Remote enough to make me a true non-believer in ET contact.


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26440863 - 01/18/20 09:39 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Where are even the simplest organisms, like bacteria or protists? These theories fail to explain why the simplest organisms haven't been discovered yet, outside of earth.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26440876 - 01/18/20 09:54 PM (4 years, 11 days ago)

We haven't even taken moon ice core samples, let alone interplanetary or intersystem samples. It's not that we have any negative results in our search for life, we just have a zero sample size.


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InvisibleAntigov
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26440991 - 01/18/20 11:56 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Or maybe in this simulation there is no aliens?


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26441076 - 01/19/20 02:07 AM (4 years, 10 days ago)

I think the entire cosmology people assume "is going on", in fact, ISN'T, and the aliens are inter-dimensional vs physical. No need for ships when you can bend matter at the quantum level, bitches! :sunny:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #26441334 - 01/19/20 08:50 AM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the entire cosmology people assume "is going on", in fact, ISN'T, and the aliens are inter-dimensional vs physical. No need for ships when you can bend matter at the quantum level, bitches! :sunny:





I've often speculated that. Perhaps if some intelligent species can get past blowing itself up, technological advancement reaches the point that beings transcend matter and energy and go into a higher dimension of reality. Of course, several hypotheses in physics, including to an extent quantum theory, unequivocally posit dimensions beyond the four we are familiar with. So perhaps at a certain point, putative aliens would not exist in physical bodies transmitting light signals, but simply vanish from our consensus reality. Good point.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26441514 - 01/19/20 11:02 AM (4 years, 10 days ago)

If the government propaganda or secretive behavior denies the existence of UFO's then a majority of people will ignore all claims to the contrary even by scientists who were called in (by said government) to inspect the site damages that were done by UFO's (which could not have been done by nature or human engineering) such as:
Isolated locations with clear impressions/compressions in soils from landing saucers with regularly shaped landing pads leading to computations of vehicular weights ranging from 20,000 lbs to 60,000 lbs.

The NASA Scientist who wrote the book referenced has also examined flattened crops demonstrating similar size and computed weight offsets without direct contact (due to compression by shaped fields emitted by UFO's), often with residual radioactivity and no other explanations where vehicles were observed hovering and taking off at rapid accelerations.

In the book, "Unconventional Flying Objects: A Former NASA Scientist Explains How UFOs Really Work
Hill, Paul R.", the evidence is used to generate consistent mathematical formulas explaining UFO behavior in space, in the sky and on land such that no known physical laws are flaunted, and strongly suggesting that these craft do indeed achieve interstellar speeds that traverse space faster than the speed of light (for the occupants, not for an observer) apparently in each case by manipulating fields such as gravity in a precision directed way.

The Glowing and indefinite outline shapes that are seen are due to field effects in the surrounding air required to keep the crafts aloft and to shape the surrounding space to enable supersonic speeds that would otherwise burn up metal flying machines in our atmosphere.  Humming sounds reported correspond generally to colors and behaviors or the craft, and a series of computations are shown that address that as well.

A few physical samples of one exploded UFO suggests composition that uses unique alloys of magnesium; and the strange hairy webbing that is often collected which falls from the craft also have odd metallic composition which if not kept cold will sublimate - and as such usually vaporize at room temperature.

It was an enjoyable read, but I am hoping to hear something even more interesting soon from that "To The Stars" company which formed 2 years back, and which claims to have more physical evidence and factual evidence than has so far been made public.

In any case, I have not personally witnessed any UFO, but see no reason to discount the possibility that they have been here - that they are more advanced than our flying machines - and that the powers that be, who  have no defense against them, are worried that people will act weird if Aliens are admitted to be here (illegally, and 'threateningly' with more advanced tech).


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OfflineNicodArleone
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Hartford]
    #26441529 - 01/19/20 11:20 AM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Where are even the simplest organisms, like bacteria or protists? These theories fail to explain why the simplest organisms haven't been discovered yet, outside of earth.




They don't want to be found just like sasquatch.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26441764 - 01/19/20 02:03 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
If the government propaganda or secretive behavior denies the existence of UFO's then a majority of people will ignore all claims to the contrary even by scientists who were called in (by said government) to inspect the site damages that were done by UFO's (which could not have been done by nature or human engineering) such as:
Isolated locations with clear impressions/compressions in soils from landing saucers with regularly shaped landing pads leading to computations of vehicular weights ranging from 20,000 lbs to 60,000 lbs.

The NASA Scientist who wrote the book referenced has also examined flattened crops demonstrating similar size and computed weight offsets without direct contact (due to compression by shaped fields emitted by UFO's), often with residual radioactivity and no other explanations where vehicles were observed hovering and taking off at rapid accelerations.

In the book, "Unconventional Flying Objects: A Former NASA Scientist Explains How UFOs Really Work
Hill, Paul R.", the evidence is used to generate consistent mathematical formulas explaining UFO behavior in space, in the sky and on land such that no known physical laws are flaunted, and strongly suggesting that these craft do indeed achieve interstellar speeds that traverse space faster than the speed of light (for the occupants, not for an observer) apparently in each case by manipulating fields such as gravity in a precision directed way.

The Glowing and indefinite outline shapes that are seen are due to field effects in the surrounding air required to keep the crafts aloft and to shape the surrounding space to enable supersonic speeds that would otherwise burn up metal flying machines in our atmosphere.  Humming sounds reported correspond generally to colors and behaviors or the craft, and a series of computations are shown that address that as well.

A few physical samples of one exploded UFO suggests composition that uses unique alloys of magnesium; and the strange hairy webbing that is often collected which falls from the craft also have odd metallic composition which if not kept cold will sublimate - and as such usually vaporize at room temperature.

It was an enjoyable read, but I am hoping to hear something even more interesting soon from that "To The Stars" company which formed 2 years back, and which claims to have more physical evidence and factual evidence than has so far been made public.

In any case, I have not personally witnessed any UFO, but see no reason to discount the possibility that they have been here - that they are more advanced than our flying machines - and that the powers that be, who  have no defense against them, are worried that people will act weird if Aliens are admitted to be here (illegally, and 'threateningly' with more advanced tech).





I agree that there is a lot of evidence of weird stuff that is not so easily dismissed. The New Inquisition by Robert Anton Wilson makes this very obvious. What these phenomena objectively are is a mystery, but I think the psychological dimension is what is interesting. Frequently, several people, up to hundreds and in some cases thousands, will report otherworldly phenomena in which they all saw the same thing, at the same time. Obviously, mainstream science cannot account for such mass "hallucinations," so very few in that community take such things seriously. But there is, for sure, a lot of weird and essentially inexplicable stuff that has really happened.

How this all ties in psychologically, and what the nature of these phenomena is, are completely mysterious. On the other hand, I have a hard time with the notion that some species of alien, after traversing the galaxy at light speed, should be so inept as to crash on Earth. Of course, many of these reports do not involve crashes, and it is clear that something is happening, coherently, consistently and repeatedly, over time in these reports.

Who knows what.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: NicodArleone]
    #26441785 - 01/19/20 02:11 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

You got to the same point as me, we were typing at the same time.  :toast:
__________________

Aliens fly millions of years across the universe in a short time using advanced gravity and time bending technology, then crash into a tree on earth. Seems ridiculously improbable, though ET's probably aren't immune to irony either. 

Not really sure how they figured out we are here either, with the whole "when" in space dilemma. Another civilization could have come to technological advancement a billion years ago and started logging living planets and checking in on them from time to time. Unlikely, but probably similar odds to crashing the interstaller Buick into a tree on a Saturday night.  :lol:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Northerner]
    #26442071 - 01/19/20 05:51 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

I'd like to see the math that suggests the existence of alien life is quite high. The Drake equation provides a formula for estimating the number of planets supporting life/intelligent life but because some parameters aren't know it doesn't provide an actual estimate. It's just an interesting idea with no useful output.

One could posit that if intelligent life happens, it is quite rare. Even if a civilization advances to the point where they quit transmitting to potential enemies there would be a phase, like our current, where they do transmit energy that could be seen as an indicator of intelligent life. The fact that we haven't detected such signals doesn't necessarily mean anything but it doesn't help the case for intelligent aliens being abundant.

The obvious answer (right or wrong) is that there's no intelligent life beyond Earth. We have to conjecture things, like them evolving to another plane, or evolving to the point they have no interest in humans, using undetectable communication methods, etc. Sometimes the simple answer is the correct one.

There's also the possibility that life is abundant, intelligent life less so but that there are still beings out there as smart as us but they never transmitted signals... maybe because they had no hands or other appendages for building machines.

It's interesting that all popular alien models with documented encounters (greys, nords, lizard, etc.) are humanoid, which tends to make me think they're all made up.

With a combination of AI and nanotechnology, or even just AI and larger self replicating machines that can do other work, humanity is on the cusp of harvesting and industrializing space. If we assume space travel at 1/10 the speed of light we could potentially colonize the Milky Way in about 1,000,000 years which is not much.

Or maybe this has already happened. Perhaps there was a time when the Milky Way was teeming with intelligent life. That is, until the galactic war. Eventually only one race persisted and they made sure they would never have competition again. But that too is just fiction.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Northerner]
    #26442076 - 01/19/20 05:54 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Was watching this one on Betelgeuse when the topic habitable planets and their star types came up. Was most revealing and enjoyable.



Star stuff from 19 mins.

K type stars planets have 30 or 40 billion years to sort their shit out and have their spawn get advanced and start flying around the galaxy, doing anal probes and making crop circles and stuff like that.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Rahz]
    #26442321 - 01/19/20 08:47 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

I think when I wrote that I was vaguely remembering Carl Sagan's comments on the Drake equation. I found this link: https://interestingengineering.com/the-drake-equation-and-carl-sagans-unshakable-optimism which says that in some interpretations of the Drake equation, the odds of our being the only civilization in the universe is as high as 39%, while in others the odds of humans being the only intelligent lifeforms in the universe is tens of billions of trillions to one. My fuzzy awareness of this latter optimistic estimate was what I seem to have been remembering.

You're right that the simplest and most obvious and most logically consistent answer is that we're the only intelligent beings around, anywhere. It would seem that, given the trillions upon trillions of stars and the lack of evidence of just one race making any noise at all indicates its correctness.

As you point out, all of our rationalizations are contrived. The fact is that there is no evidence of beings having done anything anywhere. And if aliens have existed and made an imprint, the reason they're not here is probably something we haven't imagined.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26442359 - 01/19/20 09:07 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the entire cosmology people assume "is going on", in fact, ISN'T, and the aliens are inter-dimensional vs physical. No need for ships when you can bend matter at the quantum level, bitches! :sunny:





I've often speculated that. Perhaps if some intelligent species can get past blowing itself up, technological advancement reaches the point that beings transcend matter and energy and go into a higher dimension of reality. Of course, several hypotheses in physics, including to an extent quantum theory, unequivocally posit dimensions beyond the four we are familiar with. So perhaps at a certain point, putative aliens would not exist in physical bodies transmitting light signals, but simply vanish from our consensus reality. Good point.



I speculate about this too sometimes just because of what I've seen on psychedelics. Still, it assumes a lot about physics that we don't yet have any evidence for. Perhaps there might be some good reason to live in a higher dimension, and perhaps we simply lack the technology to communicate with or even know of the existence of such a place. However, given the lack of any current scientific evidence in support of anything like that... :frown:

On the other hand, I do find the possibility that we're the only one to be realistic. The earth existed with advanced life on it for billions of years and never even once developed intelligence before us. Even after we developed intelligence, we spent tens of thousands of years as hunter gatherers. Then we spent another good ten thousand years as subsistence farmers up through the beginnings of real civilization, and then finally at the very end of that we developed technology. If any one of those steps hadn't happened, our planet would appear as dead as all the rest.

Even worse, our sun is only about a billion years away from destroying the earth. Life existed for billions of years, but if it had existed for just one more billion without producing intelligence then the earth would have become as cold and dead as all the rest.

On the other hand, there are so many exoplanets in the habitable zones of their stars, and so many stars with longer lifespans than ours, and the universe is so old that really we should see evidence everywhere. But the universe seems to be cold, dead, and silent as far as we can tell.

The earth has been throwing out massive amounts of evidence of our existence at least since the invention of radio. If an alien species did exist, we should see evidence. To convince an entire alien population to  keep humanity perpetually in the dark of its existence would be the greatest feat of social engineering of all time. Some individuals somewhere would violate that, and beyond that our detection equipment and methods are so good that aliens really shouldn't be able to hide from us if they exist.

If they exist, they should be obvious: they are not obvious, therefore I propose that they do not currently exist. But perhaps they did and destroyed themselves, or abandoned our universe in one way or another.

Even if they didn't leave our dimension, perhaps they uploaded their minds into computers and created a simulated utopian paradise for themselves in the process free from pain, disease, hunger, inequality, work, etc. They might subsequently have little interest in the outward universe. But even then, I think they'd have interest in trying to find other life, but maybe not. Maybe they're highly xenophobic.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26442428 - 01/19/20 10:17 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
And if aliens have existed and made an imprint, the reason they're not here is probably something we haven't imagined.



The universe is really, really, really, big. Entities are really, really, really little. Time is really, really, really vast.

It's not a mystery that when you compound all these reallys that you would get "fucking improbable to encounter another entity or any evidence thereof to the power of 9".

Occams Razor.

Quote:

nooneman said:
On the other hand, there are so many exoplanets in the habitable zones of their stars, and so many stars with longer lifespans than ours, and the universe is so old that really we should see evidence everywhere. But the universe seems to be cold, dead, and silent as far as we can tell.

The earth has been throwing out massive amounts of evidence of our existence at least since the invention of radio. If an alien species did exist, we should see evidence. To convince an entire alien population to  keep humanity perpetually in the dark of its existence would be the greatest feat of social engineering of all time. Some individuals somewhere would violate that, and beyond that our detection equipment and methods are so good that aliens really shouldn't be able to hide from us if they exist.

If they exist, they should be obvious: they are not obvious, therefore I propose that they do not currently exist. But perhaps they did and destroyed themselves, or abandoned our universe in one way or another.

Even if they didn't leave our dimension, perhaps they uploaded their minds into computers and created a simulated utopian paradise for themselves in the process free from pain, disease, hunger, inequality, work, etc. They might subsequently have little interest in the outward universe. But even then, I think they'd have interest in trying to find other life, but maybe not. Maybe they're highly xenophobic.



Why would we see evidence? With what? We have barely begun to understand the history of our own star and it's satellites, let alone have any idea of what is happening in literally a different dimension to planets beyond our scope. When we look at stars we see things that no longer exist. If beings from habitable planets in other systems picked up our transmissions they would be picking up history through the cosmos as well.  And if they have any sense preservation they won't, just like we don't, send perpetual interstellar powerful signals out as an advertisement for anyone who may be listening anyway. I cannot think of a single reason for us to find a really loud ringing bell in space saying "Hey look here, we're smart monkeys!". That just wouldn't be a very smart thing to do. But just maybe there's a billion of those that are actually doing that, but we haven't checked the billion trillion systems in the known universe to find them. If we did check a billion stars, there'd be 1 in a trillion chance (or less) we'd find one of the billion planets sending out signals. And we don't even know what technology might be used to transmit, just look at the improvements in our own communication systems in the last 50 years. And boffins are looking for radio waves? In a system that's 100,000 light years across in a Universe billions of years old. Pretty funny really.

We've been spewing out high powered radio for less than 50 years... that's hardly reached a handful of stars in our own system. For extraterrestrials that would be like a black grain of sand on a 100 mile white beach viewed from the moon. I'm really not surprised that we haven't set up an intergalactic treaty yet.

Just looking in the sky brings a sense of awe. If I ever felt small or insignificant on this planet that scope brings the truth far closer to home.





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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


Edited by Northerner (01/20/20 07:09 PM)


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26442560 - 01/20/20 01:57 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the entire cosmology people assume "is going on", in fact, ISN'T, and the aliens are inter-dimensional vs physical. No need for ships when you can bend matter at the quantum level, bitches! :sunny:





I've often speculated that. Perhaps if some intelligent species can get past blowing itself up, technological advancement reaches the point that beings transcend matter and energy and go into a higher dimension of reality. Of course, several hypotheses in physics, including to an extent quantum theory, unequivocally posit dimensions beyond the four we are familiar with. So perhaps at a certain point, putative aliens would not exist in physical bodies transmitting light signals, but simply vanish from our consensus reality. Good point.



I speculate about this too sometimes just because of what I've seen on psychedelics. Still, it assumes a lot about physics that we don't yet have any evidence for. Perhaps there might be some good reason to live in a higher dimension, and perhaps we simply lack the technology to communicate with or even know of the existence of such a place. However, given the lack of any current scientific evidence in support of anything like that... :frown:

On the other hand, I do find the possibility that we're the only one to be realistic. The earth existed with advanced life on it for billions of years and never even once developed intelligence before us. Even after we developed intelligence, we spent tens of thousands of years as hunter gatherers. Then we spent another good ten thousand years as subsistence farmers up through the beginnings of real civilization, and then finally at the very end of that we developed technology. If any one of those steps hadn't happened, our planet would appear as dead as all the rest.

Even worse, our sun is only about a billion years away from destroying the earth. Life existed for billions of years, but if it had existed for just one more billion without producing intelligence then the earth would have become as cold and dead as all the rest.

On the other hand, there are so many exoplanets in the habitable zones of their stars, and so many stars with longer lifespans than ours, and the universe is so old that really we should see evidence everywhere. But the universe seems to be cold, dead, and silent as far as we can tell.

The earth has been throwing out massive amounts of evidence of our existence at least since the invention of radio. If an alien species did exist, we should see evidence. To convince an entire alien population to  keep humanity perpetually in the dark of its existence would be the greatest feat of social engineering of all time. Some individuals somewhere would violate that, and beyond that our detection equipment and methods are so good that aliens really shouldn't be able to hide from us if they exist.

If they exist, they should be obvious: they are not obvious, therefore I propose that they do not currently exist. But perhaps they did and destroyed themselves, or abandoned our universe in one way or another.

Even if they didn't leave our dimension, perhaps they uploaded their minds into computers and created a simulated utopian paradise for themselves in the process free from pain, disease, hunger, inequality, work, etc. They might subsequently have little interest in the outward universe. But even then, I think they'd have interest in trying to find other life, but maybe not. Maybe they're highly xenophobic.




Excellent post my man! :shroomhead:


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I think the entire cosmology people assume "is going on", in fact, ISN'T, and the aliens are inter-dimensional vs physical. No need for ships when you can bend matter at the quantum level, bitches! :sunny:





I've often speculated that. Perhaps if some intelligent species can get past blowing itself up, technological advancement reaches the point that beings transcend matter and energy and go into a higher dimension of reality. Of course, several hypotheses in physics, including to an extent quantum theory, unequivocally posit dimensions beyond the four we are familiar with. So perhaps at a certain point, putative aliens would not exist in physical bodies transmitting light signals, but simply vanish from our consensus reality. Good point.




Yes exactly, glad you understand my point! :sunny:

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
If the government propaganda or secretive behavior denies the existence of UFO's then a majority of people will ignore all claims to the contrary even by scientists who were called in (by said government) to inspect the site damages that were done by UFO's (which could not have been done by nature or human engineering) such as:
Isolated locations with clear impressions/compressions in soils from landing saucers with regularly shaped landing pads leading to computations of vehicular weights ranging from 20,000 lbs to 60,000 lbs.

The NASA Scientist who wrote the book referenced has also examined flattened crops demonstrating similar size and computed weight offsets without direct contact (due to compression by shaped fields emitted by UFO's), often with residual radioactivity and no other explanations where vehicles were observed hovering and taking off at rapid accelerations.

In the book, "Unconventional Flying Objects: A Former NASA Scientist Explains How UFOs Really Work
Hill, Paul R.", the evidence is used to generate consistent mathematical formulas explaining UFO behavior in space, in the sky and on land such that no known physical laws are flaunted, and strongly suggesting that these craft do indeed achieve interstellar speeds that traverse space faster than the speed of light (for the occupants, not for an observer) apparently in each case by manipulating fields such as gravity in a precision directed way.

The Glowing and indefinite outline shapes that are seen are due to field effects in the surrounding air required to keep the crafts aloft and to shape the surrounding space to enable supersonic speeds that would otherwise burn up metal flying machines in our atmosphere.  Humming sounds reported correspond generally to colors and behaviors or the craft, and a series of computations are shown that address that as well.

A few physical samples of one exploded UFO suggests composition that uses unique alloys of magnesium; and the strange hairy webbing that is often collected which falls from the craft also have odd metallic composition which if not kept cold will sublimate - and as such usually vaporize at room temperature.

It was an enjoyable read, but I am hoping to hear something even more interesting soon from that "To The Stars" company which formed 2 years back, and which claims to have more physical evidence and factual evidence than has so far been made public.

In any case, I have not personally witnessed any UFO, but see no reason to discount the possibility that they have been here - that they are more advanced than our flying machines - and that the powers that be, who  have no defense against them, are worried that people will act weird if Aliens are admitted to be here (illegally, and 'threateningly' with more advanced tech).




Another great post.

Which leads me to my next bit of speculation: what if the government is fully aware of this stuff, but can't control it, so they HAVE to try and marginalize all evidence to cover THEIR asses - imagine if people found out that nobody can control abductions or this stuff etc. That would instantly drop people's trust and credibility for anything lol.


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26442574 - 01/20/20 02:35 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Topic is heading towards the cover up and conspiracy section.

I'm out.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Northerner]
    #26442586 - 01/20/20 03:06 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

I'll be honest I totally spaced this wasn't conspiracy; there's so many threads on UFO/Alien shit I didn't notice we're in philosophy. My bad!

I definitely did not intentionally mean to derail into speculation! Ignore me.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26442613 - 01/20/20 04:24 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)



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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Antigov]
    #26442910 - 01/20/20 10:17 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Antigov said:
Or maybe in this simulation there is no aliens?




Who made the simulation? Perhaps this.

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
(They exist in higher dimensions, don’t want to be seen (listening but not transmitting), what have you).




So advance and prosperous while Watching the simulation/trials Silently. As John bell's q.entaglement trials are quite fascinating and intriguing on the observe particles.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26442920 - 01/20/20 10:24 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
....The human brain is really too big for birthing safely and easily thru the human pelvis.
Any evolutionist can find & point out many other, sub optimal aspects of human anatomy.
No native peoples wore glasses, in some ways we are de-volving.
Neanderthals brains were larger than ours.
The default mode for humans, is for emotion, the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason--hence the state of the world today.
We are not as special as we think we are.





...Evidence for my claim that: "Any evolutionist can find & point out many other, sub optimal aspects of human anatomy.", may be found at these links, it is quite interesting:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/human-flaws-demonstrate-evolution-not-intelligent-design/

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Errors-Panorama-Glitches-Pointless/dp/1328974693/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

...note other books on the subject at Amazon, if one scrolls around:

https://thehumanevolutionblog.com/2015/01/12/the-poor-design-of-the-human-eye/

...In the light of these facts, any truly objective intelligence would consider that the human brain, is also most likely pretty flawed, defective, or only a beginning version of an animal brain compared to what might be possible, were the human pelvis larger etc.

...Going further with the statement that: "The default mode for humans, is for emotion, the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason--hence the state of the world today. "
...It is interesting to note that the people with really special abilities are those who are more or less devoid, of the emotions that most people, spend most of their time being involved with, (as social activities are facilitated by emotion based behavior & folks love to socialize)--and these gifted people are called "autistic".

...When we consider the extraordinary abilities, (of about 10% of them), and compare ourselves, or even mensa members, to them it is apparent, that the design of humans, as regards both the brain and brain-hormone-nervous systems-glandular interactions is not only far from optimal, but is in fact only a solution that evolution came up with at a certain point in time, for a primate in a very wild habitat.

http://brighttots.com/Autism/Autistic_special_abilities.html

...Some might say that humans, are really only clever, and mostly not intelligent (when we take the term intelligence to incorporate some wisdom as well). In support of this, is the well known fact that modern capitalism puts profit over everything else.
Two examples are the present state of the world (climate change comes to mind), and the tobacco/cigarette industry. The  tobacco/cigarette industry is certainly profitable, but all those involved are both morally defective and on some level just plain fucking stupid, and there are at the very least thousands of them, plying their trade. Anyone can think of dozens of such examples.

...Anyone who has read "Lost Horizon" about"Shangri-La" * is familiar, with the idea that truly intelligent folks, do tend to isolate themselves, from the masses (as elitist as it sounds); - and monasteries and ashrams are perhaps the most familiar example. I doubt any species that was actually intelligent would have any more need for us, than the monks of our own species who prefer, to avoid the mass of us, who like getting drunk, watching 'professional' wrestling, manufacturing weapons, and the hundreds of other dumb activities that amuse most of us.

...Given that there are already wiser folks on the planet, than say maybe 99% of us, and say maybe 95% of us ignore them, I see no reason, to expect much from the fantasy of alien contact. I have enjoyed some sci-fi movies on the subject, but expect that those with any hope in this regard are driven by emotions similar to those who are traditionally religious.

.  .*...from wiki "Shangri-La is a fictional place described in the 1933 novel Lost Horizon by British author James Hilton. ... a permanently happy land, isolated from the world."


Edited by laughingdog (01/20/20 11:30 AM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26443017 - 01/20/20 11:32 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Great share. I have an autistic nephew and could'nt agree more on the devolution aspects below standards. The default mode for humans, is for emotion pleasure seeking, the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason--hence the state of the world today.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #26443036 - 01/20/20 11:45 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Yes, pacmanbreed
..I would agree with both pleasure and emotion. It is a good idea to include pleasure seeking.
For example it is also recognized here as important. I hope to read more in this book.

"The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force that Undermines Health & Happiness
by Douglas J. Lisle  (Author), Alan Goldhamer (Author)

..I think it necessary to include emotion because, the flip side of our pleasure seeking is all the aggressive emotions that have helped motivate thousands of years of almost continual warfare, torture, slavery and so on,  on the planet.
...Certainly the emotions can be thought of as included within the category of the hormones that promote aggression. But I suppose both terms, don't really give the impression of the horrors that people have perpetrated on one another. Before guns, as we already know but perhaps forget, warfare involved guys hacking each others limbs off, (to say nothing, of the highly inventive tortures, practiced by many cultures).
...Even today, those who have a chance to observe family life, among those who have small children of similar ages, very often see, sibling rivalry rivalry that is totally out of any rational control, that goes on obsessively for years.


Edited by laughingdog (01/20/20 11:59 AM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26443263 - 01/20/20 02:28 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

In regards to: "I have enjoyed some sci-fi movies on the subject, but expect that those with any hope in this regard are driven by emotions similar to those who are traditionally religious."
and
"The default mode for humans, is for emotion, [ and pleasure seeking], the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason."

...on second thought it seems we "should" also include vanity...
why? ... because, the reference to religiosity above reminds us that millions of folks, for hundreds of years, have imagined not only a personal 'god' who gives a shit about so called 'humanity', but have also believed that this "god" is interested in them personally.
...And we see almost exactly the same tendency, among those who think the search for, and hope for finding off planet intelligent life, is a worthwhile endeavor while  people continue to starve on earth, can't control their birthrate, continue to make war, torture each other, while criminalizing psychedelics, and in general avoiding those things that raise awareness, and indulging in those things that reduce awareness.
...Sure seems like vanity, arrogance, & in general selfishness, all belong in the list of the human default mode; whereas those qualities traditionally called virtues all take hard work to develop even slightly -- of course this is not a new idea--but seems to have been forgotten by those who put faith in intelligent aliens coming to the rescue, or having any interest in a species intent on destroying its own home.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 3
    #26443567 - 01/20/20 05:37 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Your post reminds me of another aspect I've often considered when thinking about this: unlimited expansion and notions of "manifest destiny." It may be very strange and unusual for a species to expand and consume the way we do. That is, going back thousands of years, our culture and very few (if any) others have been bent, essentially, on world domination. Our culture, going back to the Fertile Crescent, has always been about expansion and conquest. Anthropologists know that the vast majority of human cultures over time are not at all this way, most of which were notably sustainable and local.

So this notion that we must "jump off" and continue this behavior on other planets may not be something one sees in the universe very much. As evolution applies everywhere in nature, cultures bent on domination will probably always at some point run out of resources or run themselves into the ground, as it goes against sustainability and essentially all ecological principles we know of.

Perhaps this "manifest destiny" is peculiar to us. Certainly, many social commentators and comedians have pointed out that if we go off-planet, all we'll do is pollute and ruin world after world. Some destiny!


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26443683 - 01/20/20 06:47 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Interesting point.
As regards diseases I have read there are 2 types
those that kill the host and those that don't.

Rabies is a disease that kills the host, as it spreads by causing its 'hosts' to bite others, and thus spreads even after the 1st host is dead.

Other diseases are air borne, such as the 'common' cold and the longer the host lives, the more it spreads itself.

...Modern humans at least metaphorically can be compared to the type of virus that kills the host. But in this case there are no other hosts available to kill. If civilization, was the cause of expansionism & the urge to dominate I don't know . The 3 patriarchal Religions of the middle East wouldn't seem to be the cause, as the Romans were also expansion and empire minded; this would seem to let American style capitalism off the hook too.
I suppose another possibility is that it just took awhile for our true nature to emerge.

...Attila the huns date was c. 406–453), according to one source, another said "Attila the Hun and his warriors rose from the plains of Scythia, modern-day southern Russia and Kazakhstan, and spread terror across Europe."
Seem he was outside of civilization and the Fertile Crescent.

...Leaving aside the issue of: a program of Empire and Dominance, I think much of the other evidence, as regards human aggressive tendencies, belief in superstitions, vanity, and in general a preference for emotionality over reason, xenophobia, the brain being based firstly on the same structure as land animals, in very dangerous wild environments & only secondly with the cobbled-on, add on of a frontal cortex, with some autistics vastly out performing the standard model, the prevalence of much warring behavior even among native peoples outside the fertile crescent, still stands.
...And this leads me to regard hope or great interest in 'alien contact' as having the same emotional basis as belief in the saving power of any one of thousands of "gods'' humans have believed in at one time or another.

...Also it seems over looked is that humans are totally interdependent on the rest of their ecological environment. The fact that a few humans have orbited the earth for a few months does not disprove this, where as the microbiome and its importance does show our interdependence on earth and other life forms also resident on the planet, for millions of years.
If there are exoplanetary life forms, they are probably interdependent on their planet and other life forms also resident on their planet, for millions of years.

...So I think humans both overate themselves to an absurd degree, and overate their importance to an absurd degree.

...Seems to me, If we had the least bit of real intelligence/wisdom/compassion and real cooperative ability, guys like the Dali Lama or Eckhart Tolle (or someone with some wisdom) would run things, not assholes like Putin and Trump, et al.
But it seems we, in general are more like primates, in clothing putting on airs, than the ideals we aspire to.


Edited by laughingdog (01/20/20 07:37 PM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26443759 - 01/20/20 07:39 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Yes, good points. The notion that alien contact has replaced contact with gods and angels is, I think, particularly apt. We read in the literature about how all nonordinary visions in the Middle Ages involved, God, Jesus, Mary or angels, and this seems to have been replaced by aliens and UFOs in the twentieth century. Being purely agnostic about the basis of the various subjects, the "contactee" phenomena are somehow tied, and probably not meaningfully related to their respective subjects in any natural way.

As far as Attila, I think his region was connected to the Fertile Crescent by the direct spread of agriculture, but that is not really important.

Indeed, humans rely on Earth for their very being. Your point about the microbiome is very relevant. There was a thread a few months back to the effect that all sorts of things (mostly unenvisioned) could go wrong off planet for the squishy human organism, and the whole fairy tale about space migration in our current form is pretty ridiculous.

Yes, our institutions and our leaders, and Trump, are a reflection of ourselves. If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.

We are indeed primates wearing clothing and putting on airs. And not a whole not more by the looks of things.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26444082 - 01/20/20 11:23 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Great to topic, Base on those conversation. And in this theory.
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
(They exist in higher dimensions, don’t want to be seen (listening but not transmitting), what have you).




Been thinkering, Us containing a part of those listeners & obervers. genes/dna/imparts/etc specially like The default mode for humans, is for emotion pleasure seeking, vanity, the unconscious mind, & reproductive and aggression related hormones to run the show most of the time, not reason--hence the state of the world today.
The observers may have experienced self-destruction or almost at a brink of it at somepoints hence the useful simulation/trials comes to play.

in my opinion there is still transmition though not in a radio-wave technological form, nor what eyes can observe from a scope but more of metaphysical aspects inside of ourselves and the other self/person that is right next to us. Eg. in a conversation.


Edited by pacmanbreed (01/21/20 12:47 AM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: pacmanbreed]
    #26444442 - 01/21/20 08:25 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

so basically super alien beings have an aversion to insanity and earth is just too full of it.

don't poke the bear


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26444472 - 01/21/20 09:01 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Earth is not yet almost too full but a bit close.. Can be the other way around on the other side.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: pacmanbreed]
    #26444675 - 01/21/20 11:19 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Did the idea ever cross your minds...that the human species killed everything else a long time ago?? Everything within reach able means, that is. Its kind of obvious...1+1=2


Edited by Mr. D Green (01/21/20 11:22 AM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26444761 - 01/21/20 12:18 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Did the idea ever cross your minds...that the human species killed everything else a long time ago?? Everything within reach able means, that is. Its kind of obvious...1+1=2




Your not alone It did. Though i view it as a 3 side of a coin one side is dead empty. The other side is a advancely complex and colorful. Here is the middle. 2+0+1


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: pacmanbreed] * 1
    #26445557 - 01/22/20 02:41 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

In H.G. Wells "war of the Worlds" what eventually kills the martians is:
"The Martians on Earth are eventually killed by earth-borne bacteria, of which their immune systems couldn't cope due to having destroyed diseases on their home world of Mars."
And the europeans decimated native populations with germs, as one can read about in:
"Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies (previously titled Guns, Germs and Steel: A Short History of Everybody for the Last 13,000 Years) is a 1997 transdisciplinary non-fiction book by Jared Diamond, professor of geography and physiology at the University of California, Los Angeles"

So if there were "alien" contact, even were we & them friendly, its easy to imagine both us & them getting unintentionally wiped out. The Grim reaper always gets the last laugh.

https://gypsyrepresent.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/kali_by_raja_ravi_varma.jpg

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=grim+reaper&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images


In the parody "Mars Attacks", it is bad music that kill the martians:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/alienfilm/images/5/50/Martians_%28Mars_Attacks%21%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140812142712

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Attacks!

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mars+attacks&iax=images&iar=images&ia=images


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26445831 - 01/22/20 08:39 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

How would you answer Fermi’s paradox?

I dunno. What is reliable evidence in this context first of all? Consensus?


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446000 - 01/22/20 10:00 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

That's the thing, the absence of evidence is what is interesting. Obviously you can't prove a negative, but it's more of an intriguing thought experiment than anything. Ultimately we can't know the answer.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26446008 - 01/22/20 10:03 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Well absence of evidence for one may not be absence of evidence for another. What is the hard line that Fermi is proposing we have not crossed? Do we know that? Or is it purposefully vague to keep a shifting goalpost?


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446013 - 01/22/20 10:07 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

I don't think there is a hard line. The Drake equation came later, which gave a mathematical basis to Fermi's informal paradox, but even it makes estimates that could be horribly wrong. Ultimately it's extremely non-rigorous.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26446026 - 01/22/20 10:13 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Then it seems that it is unsolvable because there is no solution that will meet the non-existent criteria :thumbup:

Each person will draw that line for themselves and some will be convinced by some things and others not.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446066 - 01/22/20 10:31 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

tothestarsacademy claims to have physical evidence and is in round 2 of funding their 'venture' which is apparenty staffed by NASA scientists as well as creatives who have put together some books and will be releasing a movie I guess as well as -- well they have insinuated that, in having actual fragments of materials from UFO's -- new products will be forthcoming.

I wanted to invest, but foreign investment is not permitted due to the company having access to federal secrets etc.

Citizens of USA may invest.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446110 - 01/22/20 10:51 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Then it seems that it is unsolvable because there is no solution that will meet the non-existent criteria :thumbup:

Each person will draw that line for themselves and some will be convinced by some things and others not.





Absolutely. Doesn't mean it doesn't make for good conversation.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26446111 - 01/22/20 10:51 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Well you could consider me a transcendentalist on this topic. I don't really care about the social mores with regards to aliens. For me it's a more personal thing. A bit like dreams although even more isolated in time.

A physical manifestation is a neat phenomena but doesn't really mean nearly as much as other elements in my experiences.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446117 - 01/22/20 10:54 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

yeah I agree I just wanted clarification. I didn't want to tackle it as a problem to be solved if there was no way to get there. If it's just discussing personal stance it shifts the approach for me :thumbup:


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Kickle]
    #26446130 - 01/22/20 10:59 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Oh, indeed.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26447448 - 01/23/20 12:31 AM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes, our institutions and our leaders, and Trump, are a reflection of ourselves. If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





*Points to last quote in signature* :sunny:


Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26447864 - 01/23/20 09:36 AM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.





How do you mean?


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26448084 - 01/23/20 12:06 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Truth indeed cuts/hurts that WE try to ignore.


Edited by pacmanbreed (01/23/20 07:45 PM)


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26449280 - 01/24/20 03:58 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
If people were basically they way we "ought to be," and not what we are, the world would be a dramatically different place.





This last statement goes both ways, often in ways most don't want to hear/will attempt to ignore/feign ignorance of.





How do you mean?




People will defend irrational ideology vs contradictory data almost always.

A right winger and left winger are going to have very different views on morality (due to, surprise! Incompatible Metaphysical premises!).

Both will defend their incomplete positions to the point of self-sabotage and redundancy, regardless of the veracity or accuracy of their claims.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26450092 - 01/24/20 01:59 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Yes they will. Robert Anton Wilson called this the phenomenon of "reality tunnels," which are completely subjective and made up of a slew of programming that its "owners" will go to inevitably, even despite contrary evidence staring them in the face. This has relevance for almost all human interactions and behaviors, if not all.

There seems to be no reliable evidence one way or the other when it comes to alien activity, but people hold strong opinions either way. As Rahz pointed out earlier in the thread, the logical default position is that there are no aliens (especially given the paradox which is the subject of this thread), or at least it is meaningless to suppose there are. But logic and human thinking seem rarely to go together, as you point out.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26450288 - 01/24/20 04:13 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

As always, it seems to me, the assumptions we make, while being unaware we are making them, are instructive.
One assumption here is that we are a unified separate biological organism, besides the microbiome, it is also known, that:  "although most of a cell's DNA is contained in the cell nucleus, the mitochondrion has its own independent genome that shows substantial similarity to bacterial genomes." and " Though mitochondria are an integral part of the cell, evidence shows that they evolved from primitive bacteria. "
So we are already chimeras composed of a microbiome, mitochondria in most cells with alien/ bacterial DNA, and vast quantities of viral genetic material in our DNA. We also host many parasites.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=human+parasites+common+to+most+people&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mitochondria&ia=about

Another assumption here is that we are a unified separate self, but that illusion, has been discussed much here and elsewhere.

"Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind
by Robert Kurzban " is a non-Buddhist, scientific treatment of some aspects of this  subject.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26450390 - 01/24/20 05:25 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Yes, whenever boundaries are drawn within the whole, confusion inevitably arises. And we see a lot of confusion about.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26450734 - 01/24/20 08:14 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Modularity of Mind by Robert Kurzban on youtube

Another consequence of this view is that in a sense, when the mind is not seen as unitary, then some of the modules are in a sense alien to each other. If so then the search for exterior aliens is in a sense partially misguided.



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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26451895 - 01/25/20 01:32 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Another consequence of this view is that in a sense, when the mind is not seen as unitary, then some of the modules are in a sense alien to each other. If so then the search for exterior aliens is in a sense partially misguided.






That indicates an interesting psychological dimension. Perhaps a big part of the belief in aliens, and all the disparate sightings of what are thought to be alien craft, is due to psychological dynamics. Some unresolved fragmentation, or suppressed desires, or a perceived lack of some kind, might make one more prone to hope and wish for, and consequently perceive, what are identified as aliens. That could certainly be an element of it. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, sightings of supernatural phenomena are nothing new.

In the middle ages, until recently, it was not aliens but gods, saints and angels which visited people constantly. Once again remaining purely agnostic about these subjects, it seems there is some psychological tie here, and whether it's the virgin Mary or aliens may not matter per se, but rather could give us a clue that something ontologically deeper is happening, whether or not anything supernatural is or could be involved.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26457739 - 01/28/20 10:21 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

Then there's DMT entities and ghosts and Jung's collective unconscious, that various people believe in.

Anyway, on the biological dimension, re us being  "chimeras composed of a microbiome, mitochondria in most cells with alien/ bacterial DNA, and vast quantities of viral genetic material in our DNA. We also host many parasites. " Now that we have DNA analysis it has also been discovered, that not only do we specifically have some neanderthal genes, but those of of some other hominids as well. Apparently when it comes to sex, and no one is watching xenophobia is often over come.



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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26458399 - 01/29/20 11:32 AM (4 years, 10 hours ago)

I just wish information related to this were not suppressed automatically to be released in several years.

As a side effect everything becomes a matter of conspiracy and fakery.

It makes some sense that other beings exist besides just us, but it also makes some sense that life never happened except here.

the DNA accident is more than just a DNA accident, it is also an accident of transcription to proteins and organelle formation within proto-life forms - producing the archaea over millions/billions of years - then bacteria, then cellular life and the rest.  but if it happened more rapidly then it probably has happened elsewhere as well.


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Re: Fermi’s paradox: Where are all the aliens? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26458580 - 01/29/20 01:56 PM (4 years, 8 hours ago)

"Apparently when it comes to sex, and no one is watching xenophobia is often over come."

Although African Americans are not different hominids, they look different, from the white folks in power, (generally speaking in the USA) and thus all kinds of nasty xenophobia / racism took place in the USA; including different treatment when no one was watching. I am of course thinking of the famous Thomas Jefferson fucking his black slave or slaves. And he was not alone in this.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Thomas+Jefferson+and+his+black+slaves&ia=web

Just a more 'modern' example, of the power of sex vs. xenophobia, and how it helped create our complex make up, of various ancient hominid lineages, as diagramed above.


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