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Happinessfeeling
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Ayahuasca Analogues
#26438793 - 01/17/20 03:43 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
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hi, does anyone feel that a crucial element of the Ayahuasca experience is missing if Syrian rue is used in place of Caapi? I simply don't have nine hours I can spend by the stove, so brewing Ayahuasca is out of the question. But I can definitely eat 3 to 5 grams of Syrian rue seeds 15 minutes before drinking a mimosa tea. It just seems much more convenient and efficient and simply put, easy, to prepare and consume Syrian rue seeds as opposed to Ayahuasca vine. Any thoughts? Thanks
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Northerner
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Sure you can substitute rue, not quite same but near enough is close enough. Mimosa doesn't appear in Aya either actually, psychotria is used traditionally.
If I could suggest something, try the rue by itself a few times to get the hang of it before adding any DMT containing plant in the mix. Will help you journey better.
And make tea from the rue... don't eat the seeds. Yucko.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Happinessfeeling
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hey northy, long time no see! how have you been? sorry I was snappy in the 5-meo thread...I can see how it may be annoying that I keep asking about 5-meo and not doing anything... Anyway, how are you? Eating Syrian rue seeds is disgusting? Really? do they taste bad? it seems so simple to just eat a few grams of seeds, wait 15 minutes, and then drink a mimosa tea. And I read that the mimosa tea, when boiled with lemon or lime juice, only takes 15 minutes of boiling and is ready. This seems so much easier than making traditional ayahuasca. I am for Anahuasca all the way.
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Boarders
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Quote:
Happinessfeeling said: I simply don't have nine hours I can spend by the stove, so brewing Ayahuasca is out of the question
I have no experience making or consuming ayahuasca, but how hard does the boil need to be? You could always use a large oven-proof pot in an oven overnight couldn't you, much like making a stew?
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tacodude
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Boarders]
#26438864 - 01/17/20 04:26 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
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There's plenty of sources of premade caapi resin... Or just pure harmine
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Happinessfeeling
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Boarders]
#26438875 - 01/17/20 04:34 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
tacodude said: There's plenty of sources of premade caapi resin... Or just pure harmine
I don't know how to accurately dose the Cappi resin which is why I will not be buying it.
Quote:
Boarders said:
Quote:
Happinessfeeling said: I simply don't have nine hours I can spend by the stove, so brewing Ayahuasca is out of the question
I have no experience making or consuming ayahuasca, but how hard does the boil need to be? You could always use a large oven-proof pot in an oven overnight couldn't you, much like making a stew?
Hi, it needs to be a rolling boil; a continuous boil. I'm not sure if a crock pot would work, it might, but I also don't have one of those.
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Northerner
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Yeah, been a while mate. All is well in paradise. Good to see you too. No stress about anything, I'm pretty resilient.
You can't just swallow the seeds whole or they'll go straight through you as is and they'll barely do anything. You have to chew them up hey. That's the yuck bit. Rue tea isn't exactly pleasant, though it can be an acquired taste. It's not like cactus goo. 
Acquiring caapi vine and psychotria from unknown sources and trying to make a reliable Aya brew is a big ask. You kinda need to grow your own plants and work with them to achieve that. Just buying the ingredients online and making it is improbable.
Seriously though. Try the rue tea first. It's very pleasant, relaxing and lightly psychedelic. Just don't go too heavy at first. Test the waters before diving in.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Blabble40
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I would experiment and see, but unless you do it a lot, it could be hard to notice or qualify. MHRB is said to be more jungle oriented by people, I guess. I couldn’t notice any difference besides dose dependage and until it gets really pertinent, will I go out of my way to confirm acacia differences, as if people know already or published results, or even have the credentials or prerequisites I care about.
Acacia is said to have been the tree out of which they made the Ark of the Covenant.
Source?
Hancock’s Sign and the Seal. It’s not Noah’s Ark, which is something else.
The covenant is the promise God made with Abram, then he changed his name into Abraham. It’s the same God as the other people in the Bible, but He might tell them other stuff or tell them to do contradicting stuff to achieve some goal.
I suspect people also don’t like Mimosa hostilis because its purple color. I suspect that in the long run it doesn’t matter and it’s just personal preference.
Psychedelic use, especially DMT from Mimosa tenuiflora root bark, revealed the truth to me, and it wasn’t just about the visuals.
We know the parts of the brain it activates in the visual cortex for them, et cetera, and all the detail.
It does what you want mushrooms and LSD to do when the dose isn’t high enough.
Edited by Blabble40 (01/17/20 08:11 PM)
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Eclipse3130
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Blabble40]
#26439205 - 01/17/20 08:00 PM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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The certain combination of plants is what allows connection to the Ayahuasca spirit. The brew was originally created from advice from other plant spirits, what plants to combine.
Anything outside of the vine(caapi) and viridis leaf will alter the experience, you can just call it oral DMT at that point, I don't have much experience with either so can't say if you can still connect with the Ayahuasca spirit which is a certain blend of plants which allows commune
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Northerner
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Sounds a bit like hocus pocus mate.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Blabble40
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The natives were probably looking for plants that would make them vomit, an emetic. So they combined different plants and found the purgatative side effects of caapi and viridis in particular.
People act like there’s a bunch of hocus locus about psychedelics, like they’re just common street drugs. Reading about something isn’t the same as experiencing it. Psychedelics were supposed to be legal soon, but aren’t for everyone.
Edited by Blabble40 (01/17/20 08:52 PM)
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Amanita86
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Look up The Tao of Rue Extraction over on DMTNexus. Very simple, very worth it..
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Northerner
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Amanita86] 1
#26439452 - 01/18/20 12:33 AM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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Much easier not to crush the seeds, keep them in something (tied off shirt sleeve is good) so you don't have to strain them out, pressure cook rather than boil, quick filter, then base.
Same premise as the Tao, just avoids the days of filtering misery and hours of cooking.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Happinessfeeling
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I don't see what the problem is in eating four grams of seeds, that's a very small amount. There's no sense in performing these complicated extractions.
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Pandemoon
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The seeds are so hard, they hardly get digested by our stomache. That's the problem. Not all of the alkaloids get absorbed then and it might be too little to trip.
Many people still eat them raw, it might work.
Better grind them well to a fine powder, then ingest this powder in gel-capsuls. That's better than eating whole seeds.
Or just boil them for an hour or two, filter and then drink the liquid. Even better, less nausea.
Btw, 15min boil for mimosa is way too little. Oo Don't know where you got this information from. Boil at least for an hour, better two boils of an hour each, then combine the liquids and drink. Add some lemon juice while boiling. Lemon always helps extracting alkaloids faster.
And wait longer than 15min between rue and mimosa brew. If taken rue seeds as whole, then it takes more time till gut mao is inhibited. If you eat the whole seeds (or seedpowder) better wait 30 to 40 min before you drink your mimosa tea. I still wait 30min between dosing with extracted, pure harmala alkaloids. 
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Edited by Pandemoon (01/18/20 01:33 AM)
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Amanita86
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Quote:
Happinessfeeling said: I don't see what the problem is in eating four grams of seeds, that's a very small amount. There's no sense in performing these complicated extractions.
It allows for precision dosage plus you’re filtering out various things that cause nausea. The extraction isn’t complicated nor does it require chemicals that aren’t usually already in your kitchen. There’s no ‘problem’ with eating 4 grams of seeds but there’s a better way, it just depends on what you decide is worth your time. I would counter that it’s a significant, profound experience worthy of a little extra prep. It’s really not that hard at all.
Pros & cons man, you do what works for you. As long as that cat gets skinned, we all win.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Happinessfeeling
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Amanita86]
#26439811 - 01/18/20 08:04 AM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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Thanks for the helpful replies. So to make tea with Syrian rue seeds, do I have to pulverize the seeds first? Or can I just throw whole seeds into water? It would probably cook better and take less time if I crushed the seeds first, right? And you said to wait 30 minutes after drinking the Syrian rue tea before drinking the mimosa tea? I read on shamanicextracts.com that the mimosa only needs to be boiled for 15 minuted with lemon or lime juice. Would 30 minutes be sufficient? Thank you
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Pandemoon
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Once pulverized, the seeds are a pain to filter out. Whole seeds are way easier to filter. I always boil whole seeds, it works well. 
Timing: Syrian rue tea gets way faster absorbed than whole seeds. Whole seeds have to be digested to get the alkaloids out, this takes some time. A tea is a liquid saturated with already dissolved alkaloids. With a tea the alkaloids are readily avaibale for the stomache, and get completly absorbed within a few minutes. I'd wait 15 to 20min between drinking rue tea and mimosa tea. 30min if you ingest whole seeds.
I'm not sure if 30min are enough for boiling mimosa. It depends on how small the bark is ground up.  If it's pulverized, 30min should be enough. But pulver is always very hard to filter out. If it's big chunks of bark then two hours could still be too little. People usually boil their bark for several hours. 
I don't get why you refuse to boil it for so long. If you don't have 6 hours of time in one go, then just split the boiling process over several days. Like an hour each day, save the liquid and the bark, and continue boiling the next day..
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Eclipse3130
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Quote:
Northerner said: Sounds a bit like hocus pocus mate.

I'm just regurgitating what I've read, of how Ayahuasca was originally designed was from visions, visions of what plants to combine that is how the story is told, most likely under the influence of another plant.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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Northerner
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Aya is a religious drug for some cultures. I don't think the profundity of the experience proves the religions as fact as much as it proves the efficacy of the brew to induce visions.
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The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Sabnock
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Just a few things.
I've always either used Rue in powder encapsulated form (grind the seeds up in a coffee grinder), or i make my own full spectrum Rue or purified Harmala extracts and encapsulate the extract. Encapsulating powdered Rue seed works and is absorbed absolutely fine, may be a bit rougher on the gut, but i find roasting the whole seeds prior to grinding them up into a powder, seems to make it easier on the gut. Whereas using freebased Rue or Harmala extracts doesn't really cause much in the way of gut discomfort, but can still make you vomit if dosage is high enough.
Secondly, i've always waited 30 minutes to an hour after the Rue seed powder capsules or the freebased full spectrum Rue or freebased purified Harmala extract capsule, to take the Mimosa or Acacia, 30 minutes if consuming the actual root powder in capsules, or an hour if consuming a Mimosa or Acacia tea. I've also used Mimosa/Acacia root residue made my making a tea/liquid extract of the Mimosa/Acacia, evaporating the dose down, scraping it up and encapsulating it, it's a lot gentler on the gut than ingesting the actual root powder.
Keep in mind, the Harmalas are what makes Ayahuasca, Ayahuasca. I disagree with people that Caapi is Ayahuasca, i mean i know it is, but i also see Rue as Ayahuasca because of the Harmala content, it's essentially the same technology as Ayahuasca and capable of the same things near about, but is merely a different flavor because of the background alkaloids and differences in Harmala ratios, but both Caapi and Rue are essentially the same technology. I've gotten all the same things from using Rue that people report when using Caapi, and i've tried Caapi a few good times and i much prefer Rue, but that's me. Sure, Caapi is gentler than Rue, Rue is more powerful and intense than Caapi, but Rue is a hell of a plant and imo it deserves a lot more credit than it's given.
As for it being merely "orally active DMT", naw, even when using Rue it goes way beyond orally active DMT. If you want oral DMT, go for using Moclobemide to orally activate DMT, as Moclobemide is merely an MAO-A inhibitor and has no other properties, unlike with the Harmalas, as the Harmalas have other properties that cause the Ayahuasca effects, so when using Harmalas, at least enough of a dosage, it's more Ayahuasca-like, when using Moclobemide, it's more DMT-like Some people dose low on the Harmalas/Rue/Caapi in order to have more of a DMT-like experience, but at the same time, even at low doses the Harmalas still alter/color the DMT experience, Moclobemide does not. Heck i even consumed 2.5 grams of Rue with 35mgs of 4-ACO-DMT and 4 grams of Lemon Balm tea and i could still notice the resulting Psilohuasca experience being more Aya-like than mushroom or 4-ACO-like, especially when Tobacco was smoked.
Speaking of which Happiness, as i've stated before, for beginners i do recommend Lemon Balm tea, it'll clean up how the Rue feels and smooth out the intense come up, i highly highly recommend it, even if you don't end up taking the Lemon Balm, it's good to have around in case you need it.
But yeah if making a Mimosa or Acacia tea, you want to try boiling it as much as possible to make sure you get all the goodies out, shouldn't need to boil it for hours, but i've always just used the jar method for an individual dose, or brewed up a bulk tea for multiple doses, the jar method for an individual dose does not require boiling/brewing, just take some Mimosa or Acacia powder, put it in a jar with some room temp water, shake it up very well periodically throughout the day and let it sit overnight, next day filter it off through a coffee filter and there ya go, from there you can either boil/simmer it a little to reduce water volume, if you used more water than you care to drink, or evaporate it in a dish in front of a fan for a residue that can be scraped up and encapsulated. For brewing a single dose tea though, i'd say an hour or two's worth of boiling should get it all, maybe even 45 minutes.
As far as Mimosa dosage goes, 3 to 5 to 8 grams at most, don't go over that, i'm telling you, 8 grams is strong as hell, 5 grams is usually my go to dosage, 3 grams is a good low/start dosage. For Acacia, i go for typically 6 to 10 grams, 10 grams being a full on dosage. For Rue dosage, typically 2 to 2.5 grams to 3 to 3.5 grams to 4 to 4.5 grams, but i generally never go over 4.5 grams, my usual go to Rue dosage is 3 to 4 grams.
Also, before anyone comes and says it, there's absolutely no need to avoid anything dietarily, as there's no Tyramine interactions with reversible MAO-A inhibition. Only thing you need to avoid with MAO-A inhibition is things like SSRI's, Amphetamines/Meth/MDMA, and other things that can raise or release Serotonin or Noradrenaline levels. Also worth keeping in mind is Harmalas inhibit CYP2D6 and CYP1A2, so anything metabolized by those liver enzymes will be potentiated a good bit, so like Caffeine for example is metabolized by CYP1A2 and so as a result Caffeine is quite potentiated, so be careful about that.
Edited by Sabnock (01/18/20 01:17 PM)
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Sabnock
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Sabnock]
#26440168 - 01/18/20 12:35 PM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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Also something i mentioned but want to expand on just a tad, is how different plants have different flavors. Other plants may not be traditional, but work just as well, even though they have different flavors/characteristics compared to traditional plants. But, with that said, even traditional brews can vary significantly depending upon the admixture plants shamans add to their brews, so there's a lot of variation even within the traditional brews, unless you're, specifically taking a basic 2 plant combination, but some people add 3 plants, 5 plants, 10, 15, even up to a hundred or so, apparently from what i've read, into a single combination, which means that even with traditional brews, they can be flavored/altered significantly. So Aya is not "one thing", it can be many many things, and used for many different purposes, it just depends on how deep you get with it and what all you want to do with it and which plants best suit you. Me personally, all i need is Rue, Mimosa or Acacia (preferably Acacia), Lemon Balm, and Tobacco during certain moments (Cannabis too), but Tobacco and Cannabis aren't necessary, but they do have usefulness and can bring out certain aspects of the Aya that you wouldn't otherwise get, and for me at least serves a purpose/role in my Aya journey/experiences. Lemon Balm isn't necessary either, but i much prefer Aya with Lemon Balm than without it, it makes things better for me, especially in terms of how the Rue feels (it's so much cleaner/clearer with Lemon Balm than without it).
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Sabnock
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Re: Ayahuasca Analogues [Re: Sabnock]
#26440176 - 01/18/20 12:38 PM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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Also as stated, one can use the Rue seed powder or tea, or Caapi tea, or you can also use pure Harmine, pure Harmaline, Harmine/Harmaline mix, full spectrum freebased Rue or Caapi extract, Caapi resin or Rue resin, or Moclobemide (for orally active DMT or Mimosa/Acacia/Chacruna/Chaliponga). But when it comes to dosages, it's really best not to eyeball it or guesstimate, it's best to use a gram scale for plant material, and a milligram scale for extracts, otherwise you risk under or over-dosing, and while underdosing can be underwhelming, overdosing can be quite overwhelming and i wouldn't want anyone to get scared away from such a sacred and highly valuable sacrament/substance/tool. So imo it's worth 20 bucks to get a scale.
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