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Asante
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Islam has a point. 1
#26438594 - 01/17/20 01:25 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
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Lets take the Holy Trinity of Christianity.
God, the Father (JHWH) God, the Son (Jesus) God, the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:0, the Oneness)
A person is The Ocean in a Drop.
Its the Universe, Personified.
If you read the bible and come out a Christian, you worship God in the guise of The Son.
This is, you could say, to a degree, people worship.
Worshipping the Drop over the Ocean.
Remember this one?
Quote:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20:3
That wasn't Jesus speaking, that was the "Sky God"
So the Jews received the commandmend:
"Hold no one higher than the Sky God".
Then Christians come along and fetishize the crap out of the life and suffering of Jesus, only using the original Old Testament to hate on gays 
So you get this cult around a person who in essence brought the news that "I am God but so are You" and his followers went: The Lord said: "I am God but so are You"
A few centuries pass, a newest testament appears in the form of the Qu'ran of a Prophet basically saying: "look you may like me very much but it has been all about the Sky God all along, so focus on the Sky God and no other." which in essence is akin to a return to Old Testament values, telling to focus on the Ocean again and not on the Drop.
I think they have a point there.
ITS ABOUT GOD FIRST AND FOREMOST.
Either you accept Christ's assertion that EVERYBODY is God, but if you elevate Christ into Godhood over all others, you are fetishizing the messenger over the message and before you know it you have a situation of a priesthood so focussed on The Son that your son is not safe 
Think about it, Catholicism.. Jesus worship, Mary worship, a growing expanse of Saints, the persson as the Deity, the worship of the Drop over the Ocean.
I think they made a wrong turn there so God shot a bolt of Divine lightning at Muhammed to remind people its about GOD AS GOD and not about God in the guise of a Person.
Focus on God as the Singular Oneness (Tawhid)
I use "Genesis 1:0" to signify that, the unwritten line before the first line of the first book of the Bible - God as the Oneness that existed BEFORE He created the Heavens and the Earth, or is science terms, the Universe just prior to the Big Bang.
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Peyote Road
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante] 2
#26439532 - 01/18/20 02:21 AM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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I disagree. First of all, the Old Testament God was not "The Ocean" but a specific deity which was later elevated to supreme status. Secondly, most Christians will tell you they worship God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Many Christian prayers are addressed to God, the Father and far from "only being used to hate on gays" the Old Testament is still read at every Catholic Mass.
The idea of God in human form is not unique to Christianity, but also exists in Indian religion and is sometimes considered even higher than God in spirit form. Ramana Maharshi taught that God, Guru and Self were all the same, so devotion to one implies devotion to the others and Christian theologians will tell you the same- by worshipping Jesus they are worshipping God.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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JohnRainy
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Jesus is the sky God. They are all each other. They all inseparably proceed from each other.
When we are with them, they make us like them as much as we can be, like a divine contact high.
I just can't believe that we are God. We don't have the sovereignty that God has. Perhaps some people have managed to regain it in their lives, like, yogis and saints, but how could God have ever lost that in the first place?
We're dust on our own. Truly created out of nothing, evolving for billions of years, eventually we'll all come to perfect harmony with God and he/she will permanently assume us into the everlasting perfection.
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dbreeze
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26439840 - 01/18/20 08:30 AM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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God is everything. Quoting alan watts in "the book" Nothing is out side of god. and he is playing a game of hide and seek.
each one of us is god we just have a ego and forget this. There is no separation but there are levels of consciousness. This ego give me the illusion that i am just me and that is what my consciousness becomes. However god is of the highest level of consciousness he is the one that truly knows everything because he is AWARE of all the "egotistic" consciousness's as one
If i were to walk into a Christian church and say "hello my name is god" they would think i am nuts 100 years ago they might have hung me! Jesus's original message got twisted with time and power. time being like that game of telephone kids play. Also religion holds alot of power because people look for something outside them selves to save them. as humans or for MOST of us power corrupts the church wants you to use them as a bridge to heaven. that gives them power but really the secret is you dont need a bridge cause there is no divide to cross. The christian church isnt the only one doing this just a example. There are truths in every religion but there is always some level of corruption when ever there is a level of power
as far as worshiping. i think we should worship the highest consciousness (god) but since we are all the same we need to worship ourselves and everyone around us equally. I dont think we need to sit around worshiping the ultimate god all the time because i think he wants us just to live, experience and love so by doing that we are worshiping the "all that is"
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Forrester
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: JohnRainy]
#26440303 - 01/18/20 02:10 PM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
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I believe Jesus, or the holy spirit as it were, chose to incarnate here to help show us the way back to God (enlightenment), and never claimed to BE a physical "version" of God. This is where I agree Christianity got it horribly wrong, by putting him on a pedestal and saying he was special somehow. No matter how many times he asserted he was NOT.
Arguing semantics over whether we are god, aren't god, whom to worship, all seems a little pointless to me. Only God is real, and that's all there is. We think we have separated, but it's all a dream.
Quote:
“When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.”
― Confucius
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante]
#26441087 - 01/19/20 02:19 AM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Who/what created God/Allah/Yaweh/etc.?
Serious question.
--------------------
  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Peyote Road
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Forrester]
#26441103 - 01/19/20 02:41 AM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said: I believe Jesus, or the holy spirit as it were, chose to incarnate here to help show us the way back to God (enlightenment), and never claimed to BE a physical "version" of God. This is where I agree Christianity got it horribly wrong, by putting him on a pedestal and saying he was special somehow. No matter how many times he asserted he was NOT.
I'm not sure which Bible you read, but off the top of my head I can think of a number of verses where Jesus appears to suggest he is special somehow and not very many (if any) where he says he is not.
For instance:
Quote:
But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:36 - 39
Quote:
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:53-54
Quote:
I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. John 8:12[ quote]
Quote:
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
Quote:
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mathew 28:18
I don't see how anyone can read the NT and blame Christians for thinking Jesus was special somehow.
Quote:
arguing semantics over whether we are god, aren't god, whom to worship, all seems a little pointless to me. Only God is real, and that's all there is. We think we have separated, but it's all a dream.
Quote:
“When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.”
― Confucius
This part I agree with.
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
Edited by Peyote Road (01/19/20 02:45 AM)
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Asante
Mage


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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Who/what created God/Allah/Yaweh/etc.?
Serious question.
uh - if you have an eternal system, there must be a ground state, a certai amount of energy and information present in the system for it to be a system at all.
That is God. Always has been, always will be.
Whats artificial is the separating out of the unpleasant from the pleasant, and absolving God from the unpleasant.
NAY.
God is 100% of everything, from the enlightened spring in the steps of the Dalai Lama to getting ice cold Zyklon B mush dumped on the back of your neck in a Nazi gas chamber.
God is the Totality of All Things, including the not so nice things.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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dbreeze
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante]
#26441307 - 01/19/20 08:26 AM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Who/what created God/Allah/Yaweh/etc.?
Serious question.
uh - if you have an eternal system, there must be a ground state, a certai amount of energy and information present in the system for it to be a system at all.
That is God. Always has been, always will be.
Whats artificial is the separating out of the unpleasant from the pleasant, and absolving God from the unpleasant.
NAY.
God is 100% of everything, from the enlightened spring in the steps of the Dalai Lama to getting ice cold Zyklon B mush dumped on the back of your neck in a Nazi gas chamber.
God is the Totality of All Things, including the not so nice things.
now this is true. i believe god is simply EVERYTHING good bad playfull dramtic EVERYTHING. and EVERYTHING has been created from him. It is NOT seperate...its ying yang "it takes 2 but 2 is one" Yes there is a difference in good and evil but one can not exsist without the other...
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Forrester
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: dbreeze] 1
#26441485 - 01/19/20 10:32 AM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Asante, good point about the NT. I'll have to agree, although I haven't read much of it. I don't find it a trustworthy source after all it's edits and everyone's agenda has gotten into it.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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pacmanbreed



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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante] 1
#26441594 - 01/19/20 12:07 PM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Thats deep mentioning gen1:0 Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.Matthew 8
In in my case Since im a bit younger i still need that gen1:1 to be sufficient to remind myself that we all look in the same one Great sky While our feet is still in this great Globe. Gay hating christian are not yet christians specially those living in the bible belt of old testaments tithes.
GOD can communicate in the form of prophets/christ/gautama so as GOD can communicate in the form of you & I. The realized one can differentiate those that are still a bit left behind.
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chibiabos
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Who/what created God/Allah/Yaweh/etc.?
Serious question.
Probably came out of the whole tradition of worshipping whichever deity was responsible for bringing storms (which make the ground fertile). Might seem kind of silly, but shit. Let's see you try to explain how storms work several thousands of years before there was even a concept of the atmostphere (not to mention things like thermodynamics and calculus).
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Forrester
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Quote:
Peyote Road said: I'm not sure which Bible you read, but off the top of my head I can think of a number of verses where Jesus appears to suggest he is special somehow and not very many (if any) where he says he is not.
I don't read any of the versions of the bible, to me it's hard to trust any of it when it's been edited to shit over the centuries. Especially with so much of it contradicting itself. Not to judge anyone who finds it useful, I just don't. A course in miracles is the text I prefer, throughout which he explains many of the misinterpretations about the bible.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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Asante
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: chibiabos] 1
#26441939 - 01/19/20 04:22 PM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
chibiabos said: several thousands of years before there was even a concept of the atmostphere
I'm pretty sure the ancients blew against their hand at one point and noticed it exerted a pressure.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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chibiabos
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante]
#26442398 - 01/19/20 09:43 PM (4 years, 10 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asante said:
Quote:
chibiabos said: several thousands of years before there was even a concept of the atmostphere
I'm pretty sure the ancients blew against their hand at one point and noticed it exerted a pressure.
Which is probably why old myths tend to involve powerful beings responsible for creating the winds. Most people nowadays barely even know where clouds come from, and even that is pretty much the result of mathematics that simply didn't exist back then. It's hard won knowledge that's been earned more or less over the entire course of human history.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Who/what created God/Allah/Yaweh/etc.?
Serious question.
Not so serious. God (English shorthand for Ultimate Reality personified) is by definition Eternal hence Uncreated (a synonym for Eternal). The Names and attributes (falsely) ascribed to Deity (again, Ultimate Reality personified) are intellectual machinations of the human psyche attempting to comprehend the Incomprehensible.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Asante
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We have a closed system containing information and energy. Information and energy can never truly be destroyed.
Its always been, it'll always be - the dance of energy.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante]
#26443509 - 01/20/20 05:05 PM (4 years, 9 days ago) |
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The primordial "waters" of Genesis is a metaphysical notion not a physical water. The language is typical of myth in that the Four Elements are often transposed as primordial metaphysical principles. In Greece the primal sky god was Ouranos, in India it was Dyaus. Often the masculine sky or Air element mates with an Earth element, Gaea (or Gaia) in Greece and Prithvi in India. The psychological underpinnings of invisible father-god and visible mother-goddess probably reflects the relative biological manifestations as a spoonful of semen which is 'practically' invisible while the burgeoning belly of a pregnant woman becomes increasingly manifest eventuating in an actual physical baby.
The Christian trinitarian doctrine developed out of a 2nd century dyad of Father-Son into the Father-Son-Spirit in the 3rd century after Tertullian first used the name trinity to link three separate names of Deity. The Son is properly the Logos moreso than the man Iesous. The Logos is manifest God emerging from the Unmanifested Godhead. The additional humanization of Iesous into a demigod born of a mortal woman and a Deity (Deus in Latin, Zeus in Greek) is pure Hellenistic myth-making. What a lot of people do not grok is that for the more earthy Synoptic (same view) gospels Mark, Matthew, Luke, Iesous is 'a man anointed (christed as with chrism, ritual oil, ["...thou anointest my head with oil..." - Psalm 22]) by God.' It was ONLY the author called John who depicted Iesous a 'God clothed with flesh' after the Hellenistic demigod tradition (like Zeus impregnating Semele to produce Dionysus or Zeus impregnating Alceme to produce Heracles [Hercules]).
I once showed my late father-in-law, a Muslim CEO and PhD electrical engineer for the Siemen Corp. how trinitarian theology is yet monotheistic. His whole life he had believed Christianity to be polytheistic. I used a chapter in one of my former textbooks, John MacQuarrie's Principles of Christian Theology. MacQuarrie is known as a Christian existentialist theologian and describes the three persons of the Godhead in philosophical categories of Being rather than in simple mythic personifications. "Una Substantia Tres Personas" (One Substance Three Persons") reads the earliest trinitarian dogma.
As Jung pointed out, the number 3, trinity, which often avers to the image of a triangle, denotes dynamism. On the other hand a square denotes wholeness but also inertness. There is an unconscious aspect here that informs conscious intellection. In a purely monistic Buddhist idiom one has the Clear Light of the Void, or simple Non-Dualism in an Advaitic idiom. But in a monotheistic idiom one must avoid images altogether (hence the strict Muslim prohibition against any representation of Deity). The Christian author Sinclair Lewis once disclosed that in childhood he could not banish the intrusive image of God as "an infinite sea of gray tapioca!" 
Catholic saint veneration aside, only in popular unsophisticated religion do we encounter Iesous being equated to the Creator of the universe. Iesous is portrayed, particularly in John with those "I AM" statements as being a unique specie of Being. If those same sayings are interpreted as being revelations about the 'true nature' of every human (a Gnostic take), then a very different picture emerges. If Iesous was 'hooked into' the Logos to a unique 'degree,' that would cast him as a uniquely gifted and blessed human being on a par with an avatar in a Hindu idiom. The theological position is not that Christ IS God but rather 'God was in Christ.' The additional Christian doctrine is that Iesous Christ was "fully God, fully man," and the rest of us are not. This is probably a sound way of putting it because Westerners cannot handle an idiom such as Tat Twam Asi (That Thou Art), it goes right to the ego and inflates people to psychotic proportions!
Christianity does conflate the title "Son of God," (which was a title for every anointed king of Israel), with that Hellenistic demigod status, resulting in Iesous being also considered a biological 'son' of God in a way that the rest of us are not. The word virgin is a mistranslation of the Greek Tenach's Isaiah 7:14 which says in the Hebrew original that a "young woman" (almah) will birth the Messiah. The Greek translation of the Hebrew that Matthew quoted read "parthenos" which meant both young woman AND virgin. Hebrew did not say virgin (betholah) because Judaism has never entertained an incarnation of God AS human but the world began to read of Mother Mary as virgin and demigods were born of mortal virgins. The Pagan element runs throughout Christianity in this way and violates the expressions of both Jewish and Muslim monotheism.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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mkcobain
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Re: Islam has a point. [Re: Asante] 1
#26447657 - 01/23/20 05:48 AM (4 years, 6 days ago) |
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Mohammad's ambition was to teach Abraham's teachings to pagans of the region in his own way. He was a true fan of Jesus, leader of a revolution who banned burying the girls alive and gave woman rights of inheritance. (It was not perfect but it was a progress) He was teaching them Jesus basically but yes, He was against idolising himself in any way so he forbid others to draw his images or any sort of sculptures like Christians did to Jesus. Just to prevent people from putting him next to the God or simply shifting the focus from God to himself.
Islam was welcomed by Christian leaders of the time as well. They fought together against Zoroastrians of persia. Yet people are so against of diversity of the practices when it is about religions. Thinking out of the box is an act herecy.
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