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saintdextro
Entheogen psychonaut



Registered: 01/03/15
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smoking immoral?
#26432155 - 01/13/20 08:44 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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I had my first cigarrete when I was 8 years old, innocent, and i've been a pack a day smoker since I was 18 years old (i'm 32 now), and I still get the same enjoyable sensation I got when I took my first hit all those years ago, my only crime was picking through ashtrays and smoking butts of others, totally shameful,,,but I still get that innocent joy when I drag from a cig, my friends inspired me to not do it in front of kids, but usually I do it anyways, it is an addiction, and may kill me, do you think this habit is holding me back spiritualy? will I not attain Moksha with a habit?
-------------------- "He who finds peace and joy And radiance within himself That man becomes one with God And vanishes into God's bliss." -Bhagavad Gita, 5.24 One 21 - Building Better Bombs One 21 - Pacified One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine "Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Katz 206
High Wizard



Registered: 10/29/17
Posts: 757
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morality is subjective
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mitchell_danger
Titty Sprinkles


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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: Katz 206]
#26432282 - 01/13/20 10:03 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Morality doesn't really matter so much as your own view of your health and wellbeing do. We all know that it is devastating and dangerous to your lungs, arteries and everything in between.
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saintdextro
Entheogen psychonaut



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I'm probally mistaken but I always took "morality" to mean personal aspect of virtue, whereas "ethical" meaning more social, and the way it effects people other than yourself.
Maybe immoral is the wrong word,,, delusional? stupidity? weakness? because the fact is I get pretty grumpy for a moment if I'm deprived of a cig.
-------------------- "He who finds peace and joy And radiance within himself That man becomes one with God And vanishes into God's bliss." -Bhagavad Gita, 5.24 One 21 - Building Better Bombs One 21 - Pacified One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine "Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Moral development is a fairly invariant subcategory of cognitive development. Lawrence Kohlberg's stages of moral development were discerned in some 300 cultures. Ethics are codifications of morality. It is a social agreement of sorts because professional ethics such as those I adhere to as a mental health professional dictate what is permissible behavior under those ethics. Of course there are laws that may be more or less stringent than professional ethics. Laws are more arbitrary than morality since its development is invariant. However, not everyone (clearly) attains to the advanced levels of moral development.
Smoking tobacco is something I spent 27 years warning adolescents away from with lessons and gross videos. I personally have never taken a puff of a cigarette in my 66 years. I was born nicotine-addicted to a mother who smoked throughout her pregnancy and I have always found tobacco smoke and smoking particularly repulsive. My parents used their habits (which ultimately killed my mother and caused disease to my father) as a 'child repellant.' With my subjective associations set aside, the objective and empirical side is that smoking is inimical to health in a big way. Since health is a top priority to me, there is the fact of insulting the body with a plethora of poisons and carcinogens. This is therefore an offense against the body which we have on loan so-to-speak. The filthying up of the planet with non-biodegradable cigarette butts is also a dilemma for me. Trillions upon trillions of these things that I hate seeing do not belong. The Earth is not an ashtray. I avoided dating girls who smoked and would never have married a smoker. Even now I avoid individuals who might want to socialize because if i go to their home and they smoke inside I do not want to be exposed to that and neither does my wife (who smoked and quit before she left college).
You may as well be asking me as a vegetarian what my personal ethics about agri-farming and butchering animals consists in! I haven't eaten mammal flesh in I don't know how many years. One usually does not find vegetarians and vegans smoking tobacco either and these things seem to constellate together. Hitler was not a vegetarian because he had compassion for animals. He was informed by his 'spiritual' mentors and by Yoga about the coarsening of the astral and etheric bodies by tobacco smoke. He forbade smoking in the Führer-bunker. It seems that Hitler wanted to continue to be 'informed' by certain non-physical entities. Not my personal endorsement for being a non-smoker but an interesting one regarding more subtle aspects of our body than the one that responds with cancers, mouth, lung, and heart diseases. Perhaps you'll shift from Thanatos to Eros in your own orientation re: smoking. Metaphysical moksha? With persistent desire to smoke?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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saintdextro
Entheogen psychonaut



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Tobacco is an Herb (stress relief), does that justify it for morality?
-------------------- "He who finds peace and joy And radiance within himself That man becomes one with God And vanishes into God's bliss." -Bhagavad Gita, 5.24 One 21 - Building Better Bombs One 21 - Pacified One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine "Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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I would say it's no more immoral than any other self-destructive activity. But there's something about being a slave that really really got to me. It's what ultimately made me quit. If I was knocked out in the street and the first thing I saw when I woke up was how many cigs I had left, I could probably tell you what time I was assaulted. They owned me, I would run from the bus station in between buses to buy more, risking being hella late for work. It was the first thing I did when I woke up, and if I was running late and didn't have time my morning felt incomplete. I would rather skip breakfast than my morning cig.
Personally, being controlled that way didn't feel immoral but it ate at my soul. I'm extremely glad I quit. It took me YEARS to get that addicted, for a long time I could legitimately stop for months at a time whenever I chose.
Seeing a really hot girl cringe at my smell helped steer me away as well
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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saintdextro
Entheogen psychonaut



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Quote:
bloodsheen said: Seeing a really hot girl cringe at my smell helped steer me away as well 
I once saw a half a cig on the the sidewalk in the city and picked it up (I was broke) and turned around to see a beautiful women,,,I did'nt turn back a second time to see her like I normaly would, just walk really fast away. 
-------------------- "He who finds peace and joy And radiance within himself That man becomes one with God And vanishes into God's bliss." -Bhagavad Gita, 5.24 One 21 - Building Better Bombs One 21 - Pacified One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine "Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Immoral is the tobacco industry shifting their marketing focus to the developing world and there, advertizing towards children and doing cigarette giveaways.
They damn well know 2/3 of smokers dies by the cigarette and that kids shouldnt be marketed to, the developed world lawsuits shown that in no uncertain terms.
They just know that in developing nations, for a couple million bucks the government looks the other way.
THATS immoral.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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feldman114
Stragler


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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: Asante]
#26433119 - 01/14/20 01:05 PM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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I switched to the Juul, so no more tar and no more second-hand worries. That said I am DEFINITELY more addicted to the thing now than I ever was to cigarettes.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Quote:
feldman114 said: I switched to the Juul, so no more tar and no more second-hand worries. That said I am DEFINITELY more addicted to the thing now than I ever was to cigarettes.
Really? I switched to a vape and it really helped me quit. Although that's because I did a legit box mod. If you ever wanted to quit, look into that. It allows you to get essentially any strength juice all the way down to zero nic
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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feldman114
Stragler


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Yeah that’s a different experience. Juul gives you bigger hits and instant gratification cause the nicotine is absorbed right away, as opposed to smoking a cig.
And because there’s no smoke, you can kill yourself slowly anywhere. I hit it at work, in my cubicle, in restaurants, even on planes.
I hate the thing...it owns me.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Quote:
saintdextro said: Tobacco is an Herb (stress relief), does that justify it for morality? [/quote
I’m saying that it was not moral subjecting me and my sibling to a toxic womb. I was born low birth weight as a result. It was not moral to have exposed me to 2nd hand smoke which in my case caused me excruciating ear aches as a child (nobody suspected the cause). It not moral to pollute the air, water, and earth with cigarette butts. It is not moral to market a product that kills half a million people in the USA alone every single year and which is highly addictive. If someone wants to ill-affect their own health that is on them but I do not want to fall under that exposure. Much of my life I had to suffer toxic smoke in planes, restaurants, etc. by people whose behavior was governed by self-imposed addiction then by consideration of others. Is that a moral act? No. People should poison themselves in private. The word should or ought is an ethical prescription.
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (01/14/20 09:10 PM)
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
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Quote:
feldman114 said: Yeah that’s a different experience. Juul gives you bigger hits and instant gratification cause the nicotine is absorbed right away, as opposed to smoking a cig.
And because there’s no smoke, you can kill yourself slowly anywhere. I hit it at work, in my cubicle, in restaurants, even on planes.
I hate the thing...it owns me.
Yeah man, look into box mods and tanks. I recommend VooPoo Drag and Crown III, respectively. And as for juice, I really like Diesel by CG. Very smooth and reasonable prices for the quality. Start with 6mg and see how that sits with you. I quit smoking in less than a year without any suffering. By the end I realized I just didn't need it anymore and stopped completely
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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feldman114
Stragler


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Thanks for the tip, I’ll def check it out. Tried patches but they only work while I wear them. When I ran out the craving came back just as strong.
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: Katz 206]
#26434268 - 01/15/20 01:53 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Katz 206 said: morality is subjective
For all intents and purposes regarding OP's claims, you're correct.
Once we get into the actual metaphysics, however, it gets messy.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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saintdextro
Entheogen psychonaut



Registered: 01/03/15
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I apoligize Markos, did'nt mean to be insensitive, it's easy to make light of stuff and not realize what you're really saying, i've been telling my mom and friends i'm gonna quit on my next birthday this July, but honestly I don't think I can do it, I don't wanna switch to a Vape because all that stuff in the news about people dying from them, but the fact is these beautiful (the've been to me) things are gonna kill me!
-------------------- "He who finds peace and joy And radiance within himself That man becomes one with God And vanishes into God's bliss." -Bhagavad Gita, 5.24 One 21 - Building Better Bombs One 21 - Pacified One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine "Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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dbreeze
Stranger
Registered: 06/03/19
Posts: 312
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Here's the thing I think being awake and obtaining moksha are VERY different things and this may be where your at. The reason it would hold you back is not because smoking is necessarily immoral its because its a attachment! Its something your holding on to. There are people in the world that actually use tobacco in a spiritual context so using it itself isnt the problem the problem is the attachment a pack a day...However I dont think this type of things can be forced. It can definitely be strongly pushed on. But things just dont feel right until YOU are ready. I am struggling with the same attachment (among many others) A doc informed me because of things i probilly got from dad cigs are going to kill me sooner than later. i gave up did good for 2 months in a panic attack went back. NOW where i am at i am just not ready to let go of that. ALLTHOUGH i seem to be getting more and more ok with letting attachments go. ITs a process. But if it doesnt feel right then it just doesnt work
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: dbreeze]
#26434598 - 01/15/20 09:49 AM (4 years, 14 days ago) |
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I'm actually with you on this breeze. You gotta really fucking hate it. You can't think "I should quit" you gotta think "I fucking need to quit."
I was at that point when I picked up vaping for sure. Admittedly I still love vaping, I would keep doing it if it weren't so stupid and wasteful to buy liquid and coils. But I don't HAVE to do it like with cigs
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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dbreeze
Stranger
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let me tell you a quick story .....i was a heroin addict for a long time now i have 10 years away. On methadone tho. So during my addiction to heroin. i cant even say how much everyone around me wanted me to stop all the destruction i caused all the court cases that resulted in jail or probation (wich i didnt make it through cause i kept using) EVERYTHING told me to stop. but i just couldnt. There came a time where i was just tired of it anyway i was just tired of it needing something that i was doing ridiculous amounts not even to get high just to be able to funtion. did that for years. what changed i just was done with it willing to do anything to get away. before this i had NEEDED it That does NOT work what changed is i WANTED it that is when you change!
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Forrester
aspiring sociopath


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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: dbreeze]
#26436326 - 01/16/20 08:17 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
dbreeze said: before this i had NEEDED it That does NOT work what changed is i WANTED it that is when you change!
^^^THAT!!!
It's remarkably easy to quit doing anything once you actually WANT to, for yourself. Most feel they should, know they need to, know it's for the better, blah blah blah and lie to themselves and others saying they can't.
I find it funny when someone tells me they can't quit smoking. It's easy. Don't smoke. Or be honest with yourself and everyone else and just say you don't want to.
I'm not trying to chastise or judge anyone for doing that, but just think about it. Are you being honest with yourself if you say you can't?
Again, I'm not judging - I did it for years with literally every drug on the face of the planet (almost). Heroin, benzos, meth, was on methadone for 2.5yrs, etc. you get it. The whole time I was deluding myself while the truth was simple, I just wasn't ready to let go.

as far as vaping/smoking, that was the damn hardest one... vaping helped me as well and I just finally kicked it about 6 months ago. Funny thing I only had cravings for 3 weeks, since then not the slightest desire to ever start again, vaping OR smoking.
Edited by Forrester (01/16/20 08:23 AM)
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Re: smoking immoral? [Re: dbreeze]
#26436327 - 01/16/20 08:19 AM (4 years, 13 days ago) |
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...same thing. Comes down to your definition of "need" as it's become a bit skewed over the years. If you don't die technically you didnt "need" whatever that thing was.
If someone is alive, need and want are difficult to separate
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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feldman114
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I think he meant he knew he needs to quit for his health, family, etc. but kept going. Once he realized he wants to quit for himself, it became possible
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