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Offlinedodgem
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Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder
    #26426281 - 01/10/20 10:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was explaining the concept of entropy to my partner yesterday and we looked up an article about it. online I have a chemistry background so that is the arena that I learned about entropy, but this article utilized the concepts of entropy and applied to it everyday life. I am going to share some things I learned and questions that came up for me as well.

So the idea of entropy is that all things tend to lead towards disorder vs. order. It is the 2nd law of thermodynamics. But in order for like to first occur (on earth at least), certain cells and molecules utilized the energy from the sun in order to resist the urge to be disordered. This resulted in structures that could resist the chaos of entropy. In that happening, more 'life' was continually formed in the process. I see it as a kind of middle finger to the universe, as if saying 'ha, we have created order. Fuck you!"

Fast forward to humans and 'now', it seems our purpose is to create order and also resist the chaos of entropy. We form our own small pockets of order in our lives even though nature says things should become more disordered. How long can this last? And is there a way to measure the entropy of a person? Or a region/country? It would be interesting to be able to create some sort of data visualization (which in and of itself it such a great example of creating order) that shows entropy of USA over the years
I found an article of social entropy that I am going to give a read later today, as that may shed light on some ideas/questions I have. Social Entropy Link

So to me it seems all living things are in a battle with entropy will all that we do. We have the option to give in and let our lives become more disorderly, or we can put in effort and energy to move in the other direction. In the words of Yvon Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia, “The hardest thing in the world is to simplify your life because everything is pulling you to be more and more complex.” It seems such a contradiction to continually fight against entropy when we know it is a battle we will not win. Is our goal in life to resist? It seems so contradictory to eastern philosophical ideals.

It mentions that "beauty is rare and unlikely in a universe of disorder. It gives us good reason to protect art". So that is we value art for the reason that it adds order to our lives when in reality things are always heading towards disorder. So it is the creation of something that is unlikely, which makes it so appealing to our eyes.


Feel free to share your ideas, question my ideas, etc. I think this is an interesting topic and I have a lot of other ideas about it, but I am having difficulty logically processing the ideas and writing them.

Here is the original link Entropy of Life


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: dodgem]
    #26426299 - 01/10/20 10:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

any view of radiating existence is one in which entropy is a prominent feature.
to radiate is to spread out from a point in space,
it is beautiful, glorious even!

for more than 550 million years, life has organized around using that beautiful thing to power it's ongoing quest for some of that spreading out and cycling it back into it's tubular resonance.

we do not stop entropy, but channel it's force to spend more time wondering.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: dodgem]
    #26426645 - 01/10/20 02:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The concept of entropy is very tricky and counterintuitive. The tendency toward disorder is part of it, but as you point out, many configurations of matter in the universe channel entropy in such a way as to reduce it, at least for a time.

Entropy increase can be thought about as the degree of usable energy of a closed system. Whether the system is more or less ripe to be utilized for the release of energy. Of course in open systems (which are indeed still ultimately subject to the law of entropy) the picture is more complicated. Humans, and all life, exist in an open system, not a closed one. Energy is continually being poured in from the outside, making increases in order possible. Of course, all living things die, but to what degree this is related to entropy is not well understood.

Entropy can also be thought about as information increase. That is, when you burn, say, gasoline, the configurations of all of the atoms are in a much more disordered state, as you point out, but what this really means is that it takes more information to describe the new state. The molecules of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, etc. are in a state that is much easier to describe before you burn them, hence lower in information. After you burn them, the information content goes up. So this is a more fundamental way to think of entropy, which is really a very abstract concept.

There is also the concept of negative entropy, or negentropy, first formulated by Schrödinger. This concept postulates that there is a process equal and opposite to entropy in nature, one that would explain the complexification from subatomic to atomic to molecular structures, on to life and mind, etc., that has steadily taken place over billions of years. This process is much more poorly understood than entropy is at this point, but he felt it was real and so do I.

Anyway, very interesting topic, and I hope you have some food for thought there.  :smile:


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: dodgem]
    #26427472 - 01/11/20 01:41 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I'd argue the "purpose" or "function" of consciousness is to temporarily decrease its own entropy to a certain degree.


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Offlinedodgem
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26427730 - 01/11/20 09:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The concept of entropy is very tricky and counterintuitive. The tendency toward disorder is part of it, but as you point out, many configurations of matter in the universe channel entropy in such a way as to reduce it, at least for a time.

Entropy increase can be thought about as the degree of usable energy of a closed system. Whether the system is more or less ripe to be utilized for the release of energy. Of course in open systems (which are indeed still ultimately subject to the law of entropy) the picture is more complicated. Humans, and all life, exist in an open system, not a closed one. Energy is continually being poured in from the outside, making increases in order possible. Of course, all living things die, but to what degree this is related to entropy is not well understood.

Entropy can also be thought about as information increase. That is, when you burn, say, gasoline, the configurations of all of the atoms are in a much more disordered state, as you point out, but what this really means is that it takes more information to describe the new state. The molecules of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, sulfur, etc. are in a state that is much easier to describe before you burn them, hence lower in information. After you burn them, the information content goes up. So this is a more fundamental way to think of entropy, which is really a very abstract concept.

There is also the concept of negative entropy, or negentropy, first formulated by Schrödinger. This concept postulates that there is a process equal and opposite to entropy in nature, one that would explain the complexification from subatomic to atomic to molecular structures, on to life and mind, etc., that has steadily taken place over billions of years. This process is much more poorly understood than entropy is at this point, but he felt it was real and so do I.

Anyway, very interesting topic, and I hope you have some food for thought there.  :smile:




How far must one go in our solar system to see life as a closed system? Like you said, Earth is an open system with energy being poured in by the sun. So how far do you have to go to close the system that we are involved in?

Each time I read over the bold I am hesitant to go along with it. It may be the choice of words, ie. higher or lower in information. Is there anything inherently easier or harder to understand, or from our view point is that so? Is there a way to determine levels of information. If you first new what each individual state was, and then came across a compound that is composed of a variety of bonds and structural elements that weren't involved in the individual molecules...

I'll have to look more into negentropy, it is an interesting concept. If equal and opposite that would keep things in balance instead of forever heading in one direction. And for that matter, reading more about Schrödinger and his life is on my to-do list.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: dodgem]
    #26427808 - 01/11/20 10:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is presumed that the universe is itself a closed system, but this is far from certain, especially concerning various hypotheses about the multiverse, and whether the various universes are in any way physically connected. So we really have no idea. I suppose most scientists will tell you with certainty that the universe is a closed system at its boundary, but like I said, this is really unknowable at this time.

The information concept may be strange, but that is actually how modern physics defines entropy. It is no longer purely a thermodynamical concept, but has been redefined in terms of information theory. So while it may seem counterintuitive, that it how it is thought of at a fundamental level. As far as "levels" of information, you may be onto something. I don't see why, if information is a fundamental concept, there could not be a whole manifold series of levels of this information. And I suppose this could be thought of as dimensionality -- how many dimensions are there? Despite what anyone might say, we don't know.

As far as "equal and opposite," maybe that wasn't quite right on my part. Because it would seem that, as far of the concept of negentropy is concerned, it is supposed that the level of order and coherence in the universe tends to increase over time. So when I think about it, it seems that negentropy may override entropy in some fundamental way. But of course this is very speculative.

Yes, Schrödinger was an interesting one. He hated the quantum theory he helped to create. He didn't think nature was inherently random, and thought the positivist nature of quantum mechanics was a step in the wrong direction. Most people think this is nonsense, but in reality it's no so straightforward.


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InvisibleRaven44
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26427812 - 01/11/20 10:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Glad I never learned that entropy crap.

Bunch of chaos magic satanic worshipers came up w that bs if u asked me lol


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: Raven44]
    #26428294 - 01/11/20 02:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There is a bit of truth to what you just said.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 2
    #26428747 - 01/11/20 08:06 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

actually it's better if you know what the words mean when fake news is coming at you.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: dodgem]
    #26429114 - 01/12/20 04:12 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

A short poem on philanthropy.

Quote:

Entropy

The opposite of entropy is negative entropy, negentropy, synchronicity etc.

Entropy is when a star explodes and negative entropy is when a gas cloud condenses into a planet or star.

Or mentioning a name in talking and hearing it on the radio.

Or thinking of a yellow coat and seeing someone wearing one.

Or hearing your name called for someone next to you.

Sometimes it’s rare, sometimes it’s often. That’s the nature of negontropy.






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Edited by sudly (01/12/20 04:23 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: sudly]
    #26429159 - 01/12/20 05:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

In human terms, entropy is, no matter how often I clean my room it gets messy again.

In terms of the astronomical universe it seems just a theory, as galaxies continue to be formed. Also order is of course relative.

https://www.opb.org/radio/programs/thinkoutloud/segment/the-math-behind-jackson-pollock-paintings/

In terms of biology although life creates order, it both eventually dies & goes extinct, & often hurts along the way.

Perhaps the Chinese view of Yin & Yang as interdependent is better than entropy & order as opposites?

Is a compost pile  entropy or order ?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: laughingdog]
    #26429197 - 01/12/20 06:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

ordered entropy


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26429238 - 01/12/20 07:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I thought you ordered spaghetti.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: laughingdog]
    #26429244 - 01/12/20 07:20 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I would have had we shared the menu


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: laughingdog]
    #26430266 - 01/12/20 08:24 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

In human terms entropy is getting grey hairs and losing telomere length.

Galaxies are still forming and combining but that doesn’t stop entropy..

What do you mean order is relative?
Losing order is what entropy is.

The math of paintings?!!

Life IS order!

In life at least, entropy and negentropy are successive, the circle of life and all.

A pile of compost is the result on entropy as life biodegrades, negative entropy comes back into play as plants absorb the scattered nutrients and order them through growth etc.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26430598 - 01/13/20 01:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
ordered entropy




This would be an ontological contradiction.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26430601 - 01/13/20 02:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Negative entropy isn’t a contradiction, it’s a coincidence. A lucky one at that.

Luck at that, yin and yang plus some effort. To balance even the odds.

A variety game, probability sometimes in your favour.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: sudly]
    #26430618 - 01/13/20 02:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

So by your own logic here, consciousness would also be a coincidence? Not arguing trying to see where your foundational assumptions are, is all.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26430670 - 01/13/20 04:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

How is a coincidence contradictory?


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: Entropy and Life Leading to Disorder [Re: sudly]
    #26441082 - 01/19/20 02:14 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

"A "coincidence" is what you have left over after you apply a bad theory" -:tmckenna:

Very busy dudes, so sorry I missed this thread; not ignoring! In order for me to get to the meat of what I'm talking about and not sound like an idiot, I have to ask you another question(s) (lol):

  • What is reality minus all conscious participants?

  • Do you assert there's an objective reality running 100% with no observers in existence?

Not putting you on the spot I need to know exactly your position before I get into the philosophical meat of this/start spouting my madness, lol. Thanks for your patience dude!


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