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OfflineKickleM
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Forgiveness
    #26429348 - 01/12/20 09:20 AM (4 years, 17 days ago)

This video below is only worth watching if you're familiar with the Netflix show "You"
but the idea presented about forgiveness will apply to a larger context...

Starting ~1:00 - 2:40


In the video the actor presents the idea that we are willing to forgive a lot about a person as long as they share our cultural norms. Being male, being white, and IMO holding similar cultural values.

What do you think of this? Are we more willing to forgive a person when they share similarities with us than those who differ? Are we willing to entertain justifications when we can relate to them but dismiss them when we cannot? Does this have anything to do with our justice system?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26430505 - 01/12/20 11:52 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Seems you want statistical info., and it will probably vary from large cosmopolitan cities, that are costal and Northern like (Boston, New York etc., vs small towns in the South.


Edited by laughingdog (01/12/20 11:59 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: laughingdog]
    #26430509 - 01/12/20 11:58 PM (4 years, 16 days ago)

Of course everywhere being female counts against one, but its much worse in Arab/muslim countries. Ideals and realities are very different. Then there is unconscious  prejudice which has been measured in psychology labs. So what we say ain't necessarily so.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=unconscious+prejudice+laboratory+studies+test&ia=web

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=unconscious+prejudice+harvard&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (01/13/20 12:02 AM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: laughingdog]
    #26445855 - 01/22/20 08:51 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Seems you want statistical info., and it will probably vary from large cosmopolitan cities, that are costal and Northern like (Boston, New York etc., vs small towns in the South.




Well stats are cool and give some strength to ones argument but I'm pretty dang open on this. I was raised to have a certain cultural set of beliefs about forgiveness while in that same culture the practice seems quite different. So I was wondering what might contribute to this disparity / borderline hypocrisy.

It seems a cognitive sense of sameness or relation may be important. And that sense can exist on a continuum from self only (e.g. I don't trust anyone but myself) to a quite broad sense of humanity and beyond (e.g. we are all in this together). But the average of this sense across a population may influence our cultural norms and practices around forgiveness.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #26448535 - 01/23/20 04:21 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

In the video the actor presents the idea that we are willing to forgive a lot about a person as long as they share our cultural norms. Being male, being white, and IMO holding similar cultural values.




The more people cling to a sub-group identity (gay, black, etc) the less many people outside of their subgroup see them as fellow humans. All of this "I'm proud of my skin color." and "I'm proud of my sexual orientation." has enormous negative repercussions. I'm weary of being called a white male in a derogatory way. Just shut the fuck up you two-faced hypocrite preaching against racism.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26448938 - 01/23/20 08:20 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

when in doubt, I recommend inclusiveness.
forgiveness I find confusing.
may I opine?
I did not watch video


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26448940 - 01/23/20 08:22 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

You think that people being proud of themselves causes others to not see them as human? I'm trying to grok this. Is this something you personally experience or something that you are interpreting?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26448944 - 01/23/20 08:24 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when in doubt, I recommend inclusiveness.
forgiveness I find confusing.
may I opine?
I did not watch video




opine away! are inclusiveness and forgiveness independent from one another? or you just forgo the modifier?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26449967 - 01/24/20 12:53 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

You think that people being proud of themselves causes others to not see them as human?




Regarding pride of skin color and sexual preference, yes. Especially when people feel the egotistic need to preach their pride to the masses. No healthy emotionally well-balanced person feels the need to be proud of their skin color or sexual preference.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26450148 - 01/24/20 02:31 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Anyone can be discriminated for things they didn't choose (skin color, sex preference) and part of the pride movement is about rebutting discrimination. However, people are generally flawed so pride movements will be generally flawed too. To the degree there is discrimination it needs to be addressed. To the degree a person has low self worth pride is just the opposite side of that coin. I agree that self worth and pride through race and sexual behavior are generally indicators of emotional problems.

Regarding the OP, if were just trying to establish whether there is some degree of validity to the idea sure, but what degree I don't know. A racist for example won't have friends of another skin color so it's not often they would need to forgive them. I think forgiveness is good for one's mental health. So, one could say that being unforgiving is generally a mental problem and being racist (for example) could be seen as being unforgiving towards a whole group.

I don't think it's a clear cut issue and perhaps most everyone to some degree has to deal with feelings of being more competitive and unforgiving towards people who seem more different. And I'm thinking your male,white example was just that. The flaws of being human don't only affect white males. If you look at more homogeneous countries, India, China, African nations, etc. you see the same corruption, discrimination etc. In the absence of skin color people find other differences to discriminate against. I don't believe people become more discriminatory when they're placed in a multi ethnic environment. As we see in the Middle East it does tend to get exaggerated and you have negative movements that are more likely to make the news but I think that's simply because the differences are so apparent. It makes it easy to pick a side en mass and there will be more pressure to pick "your" side rather than taking the high road.

Seems there's a phenomena where mixed ethnic groups are more willing to forgive their own (and less willing to forgive the other) than they would be in a more homogeneous culture. It doesn't mean there's more or less forgiveness, just that it get's moved around and dished out differently. I think painting a picture where another group of people is less forgiving seems oxymoronic. Studies have shown that whites are actually quite tolerant (and suggestibility forgiving) towards others. It might not seem that way because white are more likely to live in a multi-ethnic society and therefore more shit will happen. And of course, more whites have old money so there's a perception true or not that whites are the ones who need to change their behavior first. Xenophobia can be just as prevalent in more homogeneous cultures, just less opportunity for shit to happen.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


Edited by Rahz (01/24/20 03:08 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26460690 - 01/30/20 05:37 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
No healthy emotionally well-balanced person feels the need to be proud of their skin color or sexual preference.




Maybe. But who exactly is emotionally well balanced and healthy? IMO those people are few and far between. I've met one in my life that I would say that about. But if that's really the standard then IMO most people should be seen as inhuman.

Personally I think it's the reverse. It's very human to be insecure especially given social feedback that something is wrong with you. We are social critters and find ways to define ourselves based on social feedback. And if you don't believe the social feedback, well, you better write your own narrative. And what better way than to do so positively?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Rahz]
    #26460700 - 01/30/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Regarding the OP, if were just trying to establish whether there is some degree of validity to the idea sure, but what degree I don't know. A racist for example won't have friends of another skin color so it's not often they would need to forgive them. I think forgiveness is good for one's mental health. So, one could say that being unforgiving is generally a mental problem and being racist (for example) could be seen as being unforgiving towards a whole group.

I don't think it's a clear cut issue and perhaps most everyone to some degree has to deal with feelings of being more competitive and unforgiving towards people who seem more different. And I'm thinking your male,white example was just that. The flaws of being human don't only affect white males. If you look at more homogeneous countries, India, China, African nations, etc. you see the same corruption, discrimination etc. In the absence of skin color people find other differences to discriminate against. I don't believe people become more discriminatory when they're placed in a multi ethnic environment. As we see in the Middle East it does tend to get exaggerated and you have negative movements that are more likely to make the news but I think that's simply because the differences are so apparent. It makes it easy to pick a side en mass and there will be more pressure to pick "your" side rather than taking the high road.

Seems there's a phenomena where mixed ethnic groups are more willing to forgive their own (and less willing to forgive the other) than they would be in a more homogeneous culture. It doesn't mean there's more or less forgiveness, just that it get's moved around and dished out differently. I think painting a picture where another group of people is less forgiving seems oxymoronic. Studies have shown that whites are actually quite tolerant (and suggestibility forgiving) towards others. It might not seem that way because white are more likely to live in a multi-ethnic society and therefore more shit will happen. And of course, more whites have old money so there's a perception true or not that whites are the ones who need to change their behavior first. Xenophobia can be just as prevalent in more homogeneous cultures, just less opportunity for shit to happen.




And what do you think about this in relation to our justice system?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26460869 - 01/30/20 07:22 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

anyone tuned into the impeachment - sheesh!


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26461797 - 01/31/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
And what do you think about this in relation to our justice system?




I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject. I know appearances can be deceiving so it would take some in depth analysis to get to the bottom of it. What are your thoughts on the subject?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Rahz]
    #26461915 - 01/31/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

the justice system, seems to favor the rich who may appeal any decision to a higher court, and then even the supreme court by paying to reformulate the issue and prevent decisive rulings.

this is happening right now in plain view and nobody cares - that is not forgiveness, that is just ignorant.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26461962 - 01/31/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
....

In the video the actor presents the idea that we are willing to forgive a lot about a person as long as they share our cultural norms. Being male, being white, and IMO holding similar cultural values.

What do you think of this? Are we more willing to forgive a person when they share similarities with us than those who differ? Are we willing to entertain justifications when we can relate to them but dismiss them when we cannot? ....




.    Sometimes we can learn from considering an opposite concept. Perhaps 'scape goat' or 'Scapegoating' would be a good choice in this case. The fact that there is such a word is because folks do a lot of this. I suppose vengeance / revenge would be another choice.
.  As regards scapegoating, we saw this big time by the Nazis, with the results that millions were killed.  And the first step in this process is  always to label the scapegoat (jews & gypsies in this case) as other, than the group doing the scapegoating, (pure "Germanic Aryans") in this case.
.    This is an oft repeated pattern, for example: (Philip Zimbardo , stanford+prison+experiment ) etc.
.    In general the many instances of genocide in human history, show a pattern of labeling  as other as part of the process.
.  Even chimpanzees have some similar behavior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War ; ****

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoating

https://sahistory.org.za/article/how-did-nazis-construct-aryan-identity

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=zimbardo+prison+experiment&t=h_&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=stanford+prison+experiment&t=h_&ia=images

**** "The Gombe Chimpanzee War was a violent conflict between two communities of chimpanzees ....lasting from 1974 to 1978. .... Over a span of eight months, a large party of chimpanzees separated themselves ...During the four-year conflict, all males of the Kahama community were killed, effectively disbanding the community. The victorious Kasakela then expanded into further territory but were later repelled by another community of chimpanzees."


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: Kickle]
    #26462847 - 01/31/20 09:45 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:

No healthy emotionally well-balanced person feels the need to be proud of their skin color or sexual preference.




Maybe. But who exactly is emotionally well balanced and healthy? IMO those people are few and far between. I've met one in my life that I would say that about. But if that's really the standard then IMO most people should be seen as inhuman.

Personally I think it's the reverse. It's very human to be insecure especially given social feedback that something is wrong with you. We are social critters and find ways to define ourselves based on social feedback. And if you don't believe the social feedback, well, you better write your own narrative. And what better way than to do so positively?




I can sometimes be a bit on the pompous side with a tone of matter of fact statements based in idealism.

It takes work to drop the labels and self identification we cling to, but it can be done. The more labels we embrace, the more we suffer. Just look at how angry people are these days - I believe this is due to a battle for defending their self-image. There's much wisdom in insecurity, as Alan Watts writes about. I love that book. I've spent decades wallowing in my narrative. Yuck.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Forgiveness [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26463636 - 02/01/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

.  Seems to me, you make it sound so simple, although you admit work is required--but essentially you are prescribing enlightenment, as the cure for human problems. Which although of course it is, it is not a practical immediate step for improving matters. And just how one goes about "dropping  the labels and self identification we cling to", like the Aesop's fable 'Belling the Cat', seems both a mystery & much easier said than done.

.  As kickle says "We are social critters and find ways to define ourselves based on social feedback."
.  So it seems our social environment exerts enormous pressures to maintain 'labels and self identification', so that for many there is little chance of escape.
.  Seems, for one example, out of many examples, that many Catholics, who abandon the faith intellectually upon maturing, yet have an attachment to the ritual and feelings associated with it.
.  And of course for those in small, poor, rural, & uneducated, communities with strong traditions, the chances of escaping labels and social expectations are about zero.


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