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ichugwindex
Dex



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Morality is "subjective"
#26427228 - 01/10/20 08:19 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Hilarious prospect
My morals are singularly objectively true. I have always felt this way. I am objectively moral.
Dont ask me how I came to this conclusion, I just want someone to come at me with that philosophy mumbo jumbo proving that morality is somehow subjective.
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,563
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: ichugwindex] 10
#26427235 - 01/10/20 08:23 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
ichugwindex said: My morals are singularly objectively true. I have always felt this way. I am objectively moral.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: PatrickKn] 2
#26427236 - 01/10/20 08:24 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Perfect response
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ichugwindex
Dex



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In the context of philosophy can someone break down why morals are "subjective"
Do morals = ego?
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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larry.fisherman
shoulda died already


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The idea behind morality being subjective is that it's not just about the way you perceive it. One can fault another while maintaining their principles and values. It's about what you hold dear, and what you don't. It could be more tangible ideas like theft of food to support a family, or as extreme as causality itself; how does this effect that. Something that turns even mundane interactions into a moral conflict. Morals and ethics are inherently a group dynamic, that means you respect that peace and prosperity of you don't. If you understand. Prosperity can differ between one fellow and the next. The only fixed variable is the group dynamic and it's needs. There's an entire show based on this and it was called Game of Thrones
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ichugwindex
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Usually the people that dont align with my morals are trying to justify cheating or murder or stealing. Thus reinforcing the idea that my morals are objective because outside of life or death there is no justifying that behavior
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
Edited by ichugwindex (01/10/20 09:20 PM)
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Basic morality is common sense, people who see that as subjective lack it
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


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Is a thing pious because it is loved by the gods, or do the gods love it because it is pious?
All just semantic fucking bullshit. Make up your own definition of objective, who gives a fuck, we're all gonna die anyway.
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christopera
Stranger


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Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Basic morality is common sense, people who see that as subjective lack it 
Common sense is confirmation bias. There’s no reason to believe humans have any genetic understanding of anything remotely abstract.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


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Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Basic morality is common sense, people who see that as subjective lack it 
Do animals abide by the same concept of morality, or is it just humans? Is it a constant throughout history? Is modern society's perception of common morality the only one that is correct? Were the humans who came before us who abided by a different moral code wrong, and those in the future who may also have a different view on 'basic' morality also wrong? Does just the concept of humans perceiving morality on different scales automatically, by default, make it a subjective concept, whose definition will typically vary individual to individual due to the sheer vagueness of its nature? Yes, so shut up!!
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UpSyndrome



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: ichugwindex] 1
#26427330 - 01/10/20 10:01 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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There is no such thing as objective morality.
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ichugwindex
Dex



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: UpSyndrome]
#26427360 - 01/10/20 10:25 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
UpSyndrome said: There is no such thing as objective morality.
Except mine.
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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UpSyndrome



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Right.
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ichugwindex
Dex



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: UpSyndrome]
#26427371 - 01/10/20 10:32 PM (4 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
UpSyndrome said: Right.
Correct
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: PatrickKn]
#26428304 - 01/11/20 02:57 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Quote:
ichugwindex said: My morals are singularly objectively true. I have always felt this way. I am objectively moral.

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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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bloodsheen
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: christopera] 1
#26428311 - 01/11/20 03:01 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said:
Quote:
spirit_shadow said: Basic morality is common sense, people who see that as subjective lack it 
Common sense is confirmation bias. There’s no reason to believe humans have any genetic understanding of anything remotely abstract.
As a real response, this is factual. Common sense is an invented concept to make people feel smart or make others feel stupid. Humans are born with less information inbred in them than almost any mammal on earth. Nothing is inherent to us but horniness, hunger, thirst, and avoidance of pain. All others are social constructs
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428322 - 01/11/20 03:07 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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How do you feel about someone killing someone else for no reason?
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bloodsheen
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Quote:
spirit_shadow said: How do you feel about someone killing someone else for no reason?
Define "No reason." As in for sport? Sounds like war to me, if you've ever talked to a real grunt they absolutely find what they do fun. They dont give a single fuck why politicians decided somebody had to die. Those people are heros in society's eyes
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428396 - 01/11/20 03:44 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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No I mean like if you or me walked up to any random person and killed them for no other reason than you wanted to? Is that wrong?
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Regardless of if that is moral or not, society can't function in that kind of chaos. It's not amoral to park in a loading zone but if you do it enough times they can take your drivers license and garnish your wages. If people parked wherever they pleased at all times society would screech to a halt.
Same with murder. But every society has had a different set of standards in regards to killing. Not long ago it was legal to duel in the streets, putting innocents bystanders in danger and causing general chaos.
Besides, nobody does something for no reason
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428491 - 01/11/20 04:40 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Hmmm.... Very good points. I wish we could still duel..... Lol
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WASTE

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How would you begin to refute a person making the exact claim you are?
The fact you've met people that disagree with your professed objective morality proves the subjectivity of it. Moral claims/ideals boil down to preference; your individual notion of what people should do/not do.
I can't refute that you feel a sense of objective morality, but I believe most people feel the same despite there being a wide array of different moral frameworks. Morality is not found in nature, it isn't some tangible entity that appears the same to all of us. It's highly contingent on your given upbringing, environment, society, culture, aversion to certain stimuli, ect.
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spirit_shadow
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: WASTE] 1
#26429566 - 01/12/20 11:41 AM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Its not my fault if you dont know right from wrong
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Asante
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: ichugwindex] 3
#26429573 - 01/12/20 11:47 AM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
ichugwindex said: Hilarious prospect
My morals are singularly objectively true. I have always felt this way. I am objectively moral.
Dont ask me how I came to this conclusion, I just want someone to come at me with that philosophy mumbo jumbo proving that morality is somehow subjective.
If you look down on sluts, others look down on you for being a slut-shamer.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Tripsurfer
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: Asante]
#26429585 - 01/12/20 12:07 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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If it can be quantified and measured its physics. The rest is pretty much opinions.
You cant really quantify and measure the value of human actions
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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spirit_shadow
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: Tripsurfer] 1
#26429592 - 01/12/20 12:10 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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There are basic things on this planet that you just KNOW is wrong if you do them for no other reason than to do it. BUT like if others say if it is life or death you have no choice. That is different. Either way in both scenarios the person clearly knows the difference of right or wrong.
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WASTE

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Let me pick your brain a bit. Given the trolley car problem (train is set to hit 5 people but you can pull a lever to divert the train onto another track where it will only hit one person), what is the moral action to take i.e would you pull the lever or do nothing? Does this change if the singular person is a close family member? Or if you know that the 5 people on the track are sex offenders?
Or how about the old "would you steal bread to feed your 2 starving kids" question? What if the decision to steal the bread to save your children results in the bakers death? What if it results in his entire families death? What if the baker has refused to pay you for past work you did for him?
Theres countless thought experiments like these meant to highlight the nuance of these sorts of moral questions. The takeaway is that morality isn't black and white, there isn't always an easily identifiable "right" or "wrong." It all depends on the individual who is assessing the situation
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Tripsurfer
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Quote:
that you just KNOW is wrong
Thats the whole point. What you KNOW is wrong, is not the same as what I KNOW is wrong. We all have our own ideas of right and wrong
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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Brian Jones
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Existence precedes essence. All morality is man made. All you did was agree with a moral view that you liked that others developed years ago. There is literally nothing objective about morality.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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spirit_shadow
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: WASTE]
#26429933 - 01/12/20 03:43 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
WASTE said: Let me pick your brain a bit. Given the trolley car problem (train is set to hit 5 people but you can pull a lever to divert the train onto another track where it will only hit one person), what is the moral action to take i.e would you pull the lever or do nothing? Does this change if the singular person is a close family member? Or if you know that the 5 people on the track are sex offenders?
Or how about the old "would you steal bread to feed your 2 starving kids" question? What if the decision to steal the bread to save your children results in the bakers death? What if it results in his entire families death? What if the baker has refused to pay you for past work you did for him?
Theres countless thought experiments like these meant to highlight the nuance of these sorts of moral questions. The takeaway is that morality isn't black and white, there isn't always an easily identifiable "right" or "wrong." It all depends on the individual who is assessing the situation
Im not saying all morality is objective. Im saying basic core principles are. Good and evil are not concepts.
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WASTE

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They absolutely are concepts. "Good" or "evil" do not exist unless there is a subject able to conceptualize them. Again, I understand that the lived experience of morality feels intuitive, as if you've been born with the capability to identify a "right" or "wrong" in a given situation, but this does not mean that morality is objective.
What are these basic core principles you speak of? There is a fundamental issue with this discussion because those who believe in an objective morality are unable to define it, and resort to arguing that it is intuitive to all humans. This argument can't be tested or argued against because it is based on a Massive assumption that all humans have this same lived experience as you, which you have no basis for.
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spirit_shadow
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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: WASTE] 1
#26429972 - 01/12/20 04:10 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Love is good. Hate is evil.
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WASTE

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How do you reconcile the fact that there is no consensus on what/who is good/evil? And are you saying "feeling love for people is good, feeling hatred for people is evil?"
I think you should try thinking about this in terms of actions rather than virtues. Regardless of how loving or hateful a person is, how do you measure the morality of their actions?
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


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Quote:
spirit_shadow said: There are basic things on this planet that you just KNOW is wrong if you do them for no other reason than to do it. BUT like if others say if it is life or death you have no choice. That is different. Either way in both scenarios the person clearly knows the difference of right or wrong.
They clearly know their version of right and wrong. How you dont understand that everyone has a different moral compass is beyond me. This is not some PhD philosophy shit man, this is the day 1 stuff
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: Near Dylan] 1
#26430155 - 01/12/20 06:45 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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I will agree the further down the rabbit hole the more subjective it gets. Ill give you that. But we are the apex of evolution. we have the capability to discern right from wrong. How you guys don't see that is beyond me.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Quote:
spirit_shadow said: I will agree the further down the rabbit hole the more subjective it gets. Ill give you that. But we are the apex of evolution. we have the capability to discern right from wrong. How you guys don't see that is beyond me.
At least Christians have a book to reference. You are literally just making a statement and declaring it's correct because you say it's correct. That's beyond childish, it's just lazy and ignorant.
Why do you have such a hard-on for a subject you have no argument for?
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: bloodsheen]
#26430212 - 01/12/20 07:30 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Who said I dont believe in god?
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WASTE

Registered: 12/15/19
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You're right, as humans we can individually discern between right and wrong. Again, the issue is that right and wrong do not appear the same to all people.
My friend hates the taste of eggs, I personally like the taste of eggs. Eggs aren't inherently good or bad, they're just a chickens period which we choose to eat or not eat. The goodness or badness of an egg is judged by our individual reaction to it, not by any objective qualities of the egg. It would be silly of us to claim that eggs are objectively one way or the other, because we understand that people make these judgments as individuals with very specific backgrounds and preferences. Same deal with morality. Our sense of it depends on taste, and no two people have identical preferences.
Side note: if you are religious, your argument from the start should have been "morality is objective because god instilled the same morality into everyone" or "morality is objective as defined within the bible." It wouldn't make your argument any better but then we would have known from the start that your reasoning is impenetrable.
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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: WASTE]
#26430340 - 01/12/20 09:14 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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So.... I can kill you no worries and take everything you own?....
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Tripsurfer
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You could actually. There will probably be consequences, but not because the act in itself is wrong. Its just that there are more people around who do believe its wrong and they will come and lock you up
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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spirit_shadow
Feature not a bug



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26431163 - 01/13/20 11:56 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
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Thats crap lol
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Tripsurfer
Bring Back Asante!



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Its the truth though
-------------------- Ach en wee ben ik de klos, met mijn boog schoot ik een albatros... A philosopher is a person who knows less and less about more and more, until he knows nothing about everything.

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ichugwindex
Dex



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: Tripsurfer]
#26432463 - 01/14/20 01:26 AM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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I feel bad for abandoning the thread.
Unlike you immoral fucks who cant see the objectively (and QUITE OBVIOUSLY black and white) and true universal morality of the CLEARLY pintuple squareverse.
Do I have to spell it out for you folks what the true tenants of sentient being behavior were (are?) Always? Meant to be?
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



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Quote:
ichugwindex said: I feel bad for abandoning the thread.
Unlike you immoral fucks who cant see the objectively (and QUITE OBVIOUSLY black and white) and true universal morality of the CLEARLY pintuple squareverse.
Do I have to spell it out for you folks what the true tenants of sentient being behavior were (are?) Always? Meant to be?
This is so dumb it sounds sarcastic
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



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Re: Morality is "subjective" [Re: bloodsheen]
#26432506 - 01/14/20 02:37 AM (4 years, 15 days ago) |
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Mortality in the physical sense is percieved as objective when two exterior subjective experiences agree.
Death in the above objective case can only be percieved as subjective by the individual as the individual undergoes death alone...which is the only way it's done it would seem.
So it depends who you ask the observers or the experiencer/the one you cannot ask.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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