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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: 345536345]
    #26420784 - 01/07/20 10:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

345536345 said:
I'm a fan of tinctures myself and tend to convert many of my grows to tincture for a few reasons:
  • I can easily measure a dose with graduated droppers for either micro or macro
  • Easy to travel with / stealth
  • Keeps essentially forever in a dark glass bottle as long as it's approx 25% or higher alcohol


It is however more of a pain to prepare.  I typically look to target either a 2g per ml (2x) ratio in the final solution.  In my experience once you go beyond 2x you get a law of diminishing returns on your time and frustrations.  Stones in particular tend to have a lot of resins / waxes / fats(?) that precipitate out during the process.  Those need to be filtered out.  Along the way there's likely a loss of potency which I can only speculate at around 20% or so when doing a double extraction (water / alcohol).  In the end, for me, I still appreciate the benefits of tincture itself so it's worth the time and effort. 

If you're looking to go down this road I'd be happy to share my experience and tips.  In the meantime I would look into threads and other google searches around the double extraction process. 

In short though you'll want to blend/pulverize the fruit, steep in alcohol, filter out and reserve, steep the remaining slurry in hot water, filter and reserve, and then reduce down the two extractions and blend for your final mixture. 

The process can be slow so tools / processes such as being able to vacuum filter and use a Buchner funnel w/ paper filter helps the process greatly.  Using a hot plate to warm the alcohol for better extraction or to boil down to target without risk of fire is also a big advantage.



Right on , thanks for sharing. I def would like to discuss this further with you, Your def correct about the wax's and resins in sclerotia, T roughly filtered it out through a mesh screen.
My end product has 10ml ethanol 94% and 5ml distilled water and 5ml mushroom reduction. (its 6.48g / 1 ml) since sclerotia arent very strong i wanted to make it very potent. I also added roughly 1-2 ml citric acid juice.
WIll this solution degrade in storage?


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: HolyBolete]
    #26420785 - 01/07/20 10:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

HolyBolete said:
Quote:

Luminous7 said:
{...}

All in all im happy with the outcome. As long as it dosnt degrade in potency. Only way to tell i guess would be testing it again every few months.




How much potency do you think was lost getting from shrooms to tincture, initially?



As far as I can tell, none.

But i would have to take an equivalent tincture dosage of 30g and compare it to dosing 30g fresh sclerotia tea which is what I usually do.


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: spiritlands]
    #26420793 - 01/07/20 10:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

spiritlands said:
It's slang. Basically you have a supersaturated solution (ethyl acetate) with your product dissolved in it. Then we chose a solvent that will mix with the supersaturated solution but doesn't dissolve the product. Usually the supersaturated solution is warm to increase it's solubility. Then 2x as much cold solvent (ethanol) is added which mixes with the other solvent and since it makes up a larger percentage it forces the product to crystalize and precipitate out of solution. This skips the evap step and leaves product to be filtered and dried. Much more efficient.

This is how it works in theory. I've never tried it on psilocin before.

Op it's really cool that your sclerotia tea worked and you were able to dose predictably. Did you blend up the sclerotia?



-Sclerotia were chopped up fairly fine
-Boiled for 10 min mashing and stirring the whole time
-Steeped for 10 min
-Strained well through fine mesh filter bag
-Solution was reduced to roughly 5 ml, a bit of lemon juice was added ( sticky nasty mass which hardened like epoxy on side of beaker)
-Then ethanal was added to the reduction in an attempt to dissolve the goo
-Wasnt dissolving 100% so added a little water
-Once it was dissolved enough i then screen filtered that into tincture bottle.

End product 24ml / 155.5g truffle material equivalent.


--------------------


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: 345536345]
    #26421430 - 01/07/20 04:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

345536345 said:
I'm a fan of tinctures myself and tend to convert many of my grows to tincture for a few reasons:
  • I can easily measure a dose with graduated droppers for either micro or macro
  • Easy to travel with / stealth
  • Keeps essentially forever in a dark glass bottle as long as it's approx 25% or higher alcohol


It is however more of a pain to prepare.  I typically look to target either a 2g per ml (2x) ratio in the final solution.  In my experience once you go beyond 2x you get a law of diminishing returns on your time and frustrations.  Stones in particular tend to have a lot of resins / waxes / fats(?) that precipitate out during the process.  Those need to be filtered out.  Along the way there's likely a loss of potency which I can only speculate at around 20% or so when doing a double extraction (water / alcohol).  In the end, for me, I still appreciate the benefits of tincture itself so it's worth the time and effort. 

If you're looking to go down this road I'd be happy to share my experience and tips.  In the meantime I would look into threads and other google searches around the double extraction process. 

In short though you'll want to blend/pulverize the fruit, steep in alcohol, filter out and reserve, steep the remaining slurry in hot water, filter and reserve, and then reduce down the two extractions and blend for your final mixture. 

The process can be slow so tools / processes such as being able to vacuum filter and use a Buchner funnel w/ paper filter helps the process greatly.  Using a hot plate to warm the alcohol for better extraction or to boil down to target without risk of fire is also a big advantage.



Ive done this method for chaga reishi mushrooms tincture, drawing water soluable and alcohol soluable constituents out seperately so to speak.

For final solution do you make it a higher alcohol ratio for preservation?


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Luminous7]
    #26421433 - 01/07/20 04:22 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The tincture seperates during long periods of settling.

Im a little bit confused as to what is seperating.

Can I assume the white creamy stuff is all the waxes, fats, and starches from the sclerotia?

And the top clear liquid is the reduction goop?

This maybe why you should filter out the truffle waxes and what not?





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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Registered: 04/24/05
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Luminous7]
    #26421442 - 01/07/20 04:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Stop all the multiple posting plz. K thx.


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OfflineFailboat
Fuck Up

Registered: 02/01/18
Posts: 8,736
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: mushboy]
    #26421452 - 01/07/20 04:34 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I feel like making an aqueous solution then keeping it chilled iwoyld be nice and straightforward. I don't see why bother with the alcohol.


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Failboat]
    #26421514 - 01/07/20 05:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
I feel like making an aqueous solution then keeping it chilled iwoyld be nice and straightforward. I don't see why bother with the alcohol.



Yea that wouldnt be bad either, Alcohol for possibly long term storage?


--------------------


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Offline345536345
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Registered: 08/13/17
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Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: HolyBolete]
    #26421920 - 01/07/20 08:10 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

HolyBolete said:
Oh just read 345's post about the 20% loss in potency, is this a rule of thumb?




Not a rule of thumb - only my rough speculation.  Unfortunately I haven't been able to do enough bio-assays to nail it down closer... :grin: Easy and repeated access to a gas chromatograph would answer it for sure pretty quick but in the absence of that, for a simple double extraction it's probably not a bad place to start. 

I have to believe though that at some point in the next 5-10 years someone is going to have ready access to that kind of equipment for these types of experiments, especially with the laws going in the direction they are currently...


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Luminous7]
    #26422614 - 01/08/20 09:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
I feel like making an aqueous solution then keeping it chilled iwoyld be nice and straightforward. I don't see why bother with the alcohol.



Yea that wouldnt be bad either, Alcohol for possibly long term storage?



Alcohol wont really help. Just keep it cold enough. You could sterilize small jars fill and keep em in the freezer if you make enough at once. If you're consuming it fast enough there's no need for extra preservative measures. If not, then freeze it.


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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
Last seen: 4 hours, 53 minutes
Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Failboat]
    #26423214 - 01/08/20 03:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
Quote:

Luminous7 said:
Quote:

Quirkmeister92 said:
I feel like making an aqueous solution then keeping it chilled iwoyld be nice and straightforward. I don't see why bother with the alcohol.



Yea that wouldnt be bad either, Alcohol for possibly long term storage?



Alcohol wont really help. Just keep it cold enough. You could sterilize small jars fill and keep em in the freezer if you make enough at once. If you're consuming it fast enough there's no need for extra preservative measures. If not, then freeze it.



Why wouldn't Alcohol help?


--------------------


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Offline345536345
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Registered: 08/13/17
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: Luminous7]
    #26423336 - 01/08/20 05:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Luminous7 said:
... Your def correct about the wax's and resins in sclerotia, T roughly filtered it out through a mesh screen.
My end product has 10ml ethanol 94% and 5ml distilled water and 5ml mushroom reduction. (its 6.48g / 1 ml) since sclerotia arent very strong i wanted to make it very potent. I also added roughly 1-2 ml citric acid juice.
WIll this solution degrade in storage?




As long as you have 25% or more alcohol it'll last indefinitely at room temp in a light blocking bottle.

Quote:

spiritlands said:
... Basically you have a supersaturated solution (ethyl acetate) with your product dissolved in it. Then we chose a solvent that will mix with the supersaturated solution but doesn't dissolve the product. Usually the supersaturated solution is warm to increase it's solubility. Then 2x as much cold solvent (ethanol) is added which mixes with the other solvent and since it makes up a larger percentage it forces the product to crystalize and precipitate out of solution. This skips the evap step and leaves product to be filtered and dried. Much more efficient.

This is how it works in theory. I've never tried it on psilocin before.




I may have stumbled onto something like this during my process.  I believe it was while coming off the heat reducing the alcohol extraction where I went too far.  I added back some room temp alcohol and all of a sudden it looked like a ton of white proteins precipitated out of solution immediately.  I only added a little but this was certainly enough to create the reaction.  These weren't crystals however (or at least didn't appear as such). 


Quote:

Luminous7 said:
-Sclerotia were chopped up fairly fine
-Boiled for 10 min mashing and stirring the whole time
-Steeped for 10 min
-Strained well through fine mesh filter bag
-Solution was reduced to roughly 5 ml, a bit of lemon juice was added ( sticky nasty mass which hardened like epoxy on side of beaker)
-Then ethanal was added to the reduction in an attempt to dissolve the goo
-Wasnt dissolving 100% so added a little water
-Once it was dissolved enough i then screen filtered that into tincture bottle.

End product 24ml / 155.5g truffle material equivalent.




I think your biggest challenge here is that you reduced it so far down that everything is all bound up in the residual waxes / resins and they don't want to easily dissolve back out.  A 3x reduction is about the max I go on stones because of these challenges.


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Offline345536345
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: 345536345]
    #26423371 - 01/08/20 05:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Actually if you shake it up does it come together or does it remain separated?  I may simply be just the residual plant material that never got filtered out just settling.  Maybe somewhat unsightly but as long as it's all liquid a quick shake would solve it.  Or, is it that it's still a viscous thick portion and another portion that doesn't really combine?  (that was my first impression of what you were explaining)


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Offlinespiritlands
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: 345536345]
    #26423406 - 01/08/20 06:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

When it falls out of solution it's a very fine precipitate, it prob will look cloudy or milky. This is fine though bc it's solid and I can filter it out. The extraction I'm doing is very different than this thread but in my case by the time I would cold crash it I already have it extracted and filtered so I do want what falls out of solution. Where as in your case I think the alcohol is kicking some out and you may be losing some when you filter. Maybe filter it before you add any alcohol so you don't lose it to the filter.

Here's something that might be interesting with your tincture, it's called fractional crystallization. Let's say you have a filtered tincture at room temp and there's nothing on the bottom, everything is dissolved. Then you place in the fridge or freezer for a while. You may notice some has fallen out of solution at the bottom. This is bc solubility goes down as temp goes down. This isn't a bad thing though bc since it is out of solution the solution can redissolve some so it eats the outside layer of the microscopic crystal. Now the solution is saturated again so it redeposits a layer on the outside of the crystal and it grows. This process will generate large very pure crystals in most cases though this will be my first time trying it with psilocin. This is what I'll be doing when I run my next batch.

I don't think any of this is relevant to your tincture but if you're storing it cold you might see it happen. I'm curious if it does happen and you let it sit for some weeks if you will notice the stuff on the bottom becoming more granular.  I think if you do have stuff that falls out when it's cold it should redissolve when you bring it back up to room temp before you drink it. It depends what temp the solution was when you filtered it. If it was hot there will prob be more that doesn't dissolve, if it was room temp it should all dissolve. If you notice anything like this can you keep me posted it may help me plan out my next move.


--------------------


Germinating old spores progress page
how to calibrate your Martha



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OfflineLuminous7


Registered: 01/26/16
Posts: 1,415
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Re: Mushroom reduction / ethanol tincturing [Re: spiritlands]
    #26423552 - 01/08/20 08:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

345536345 said:
Actually if you shake it up does it come together or does it remain separated?  I may simply be just the residual plant material that never got filtered out just settling.  Maybe somewhat unsightly but as long as it's all liquid a quick shake would solve it.  Or, is it that it's still a viscous thick portion and another portion that doesn't really combine?  (that was my first impression of what you were explaining)



When shaken, it mixes very easily and becomes a consistant solution again. Im assuming its just sediment settling like muddy water.
Is there any benefit from leaving the Sediment in? Perhaps its holding onto any amount of actives?




Quote:

spiritlands said:
When it falls out of solution it's a very fine precipitate, it prob will look cloudy or milky. This is fine though bc it's solid and I can filter it out. The extraction I'm doing is very different than this thread but in my case by the time I would cold crash it I already have it extracted and filtered so I do want what falls out of solution. Where as in your case I think the alcohol is kicking some out and you may be losing some when you filter. Maybe filter it before you add any alcohol so you don't lose it to the filter.

Here's something that might be interesting with your tincture, it's called fractional crystallization. Let's say you have a filtered tincture at room temp and there's nothing on the bottom, everything is dissolved. Then you place in the fridge or freezer for a while. You may notice some has fallen out of solution at the bottom. This is bc solubility goes down as temp goes down. This isn't a bad thing though bc since it is out of solution the solution can redissolve some so it eats the outside layer of the microscopic crystal. Now the solution is saturated again so it redeposits a layer on the outside of the crystal and it grows. This process will generate large very pure crystals in most cases though this will be my first time trying it with psilocin. This is what I'll be doing when I run my next batch.

I don't think any of this is relevant to your tincture but if you're storing it cold you might see it happen. I'm curious if it does happen and you let it sit for some weeks if you will notice the stuff on the bottom becoming more granular.  I think if you do have stuff that falls out when it's cold it should redissolve when you bring it back up to room temp before you drink it. It depends what temp the solution was when you filtered it. If it was hot there will prob be more that doesn't dissolve, if it was room temp it should all dissolve. If you notice anything like this can you keep me posted it may help me plan out my next move.



It was filtered before alcohol was added.
It was Boiled in water, then strained with a very fine mesh bag, then reduced to roughly 5ml , and then i added ethanol to try to dissolve the 5ml reduction for final product. It wouldnt dissolve in the alcohol though so I added a bit more water.

Thats really cool about the crystals, ill def keep you posted, thanks.


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