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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26412637 - 01/02/20 02:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Since when emotions makes us more "human beings" than intelligence or awareness? I understand that without emotions we would be non-synthetic kind of "robots" but still, what makes us persons is really when our brain is fully operative to be capable of awareness. And probably a 24 week old fetus is capable of feeling emotions as well.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26412651 - 01/02/20 02:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah. The brain is constantly influenced by emotions, through hormonal processes. Therefore, your current state of mind cannot exist without your hormonal glands, including ones located outside of the brain itself. So your brain isn’t you. Most of your body is you.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26412703 - 01/02/20 02:48 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

An embryo doesn't have emotions nor brain capacity to generate awareness = not a persons or "human being". What you are saying reinforces more than an embryo is NOT a "human being" or person.


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Anonymous #4

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26419364 - 01/06/20 01:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Yeah. The brain is constantly influenced by emotions, through hormonal processes. Therefore, your current state of mind cannot exist without your hormonal glands, including ones located outside of the brain itself. So your brain isn’t you. Most of your body is you.




No, the brain is still what reacts to the chemicals that come from outside the brain. My consciousness isn't coming from my glands, stomach or legs.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #4]
    #26419391 - 01/06/20 02:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Don’t you get it? You don’t know what your brain is like without the rest of your body. Do you really think you’d be you without emotions?


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26419624 - 01/06/20 04:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What you guys discussing about emotions, is clear an embryo doesn't have any form of consciousness or emotions. A fetus might have some form of consciousness as well but only after week 24 according to neurology, if a fetus had emotions it would be as well after week 24. Most of the women in most of the countries with legal abortion, abort in the first 12 weeks. Logically, a fetus of 11-12 weeks doesn't have any form of intelligence either, the proto-nervous system that the fetus at that stage might have, can't generate consciousness or awareness or emotions or pain.

They can't be called "human beings" (not talking about the specie!) nor persons. The anti-abort crowd giving the status quo of a embryo or a 12-week fetus a person or a "human being" and calling the pro-choice crowd, or the women that decide to abort or the doctors that perform such procedures murderers which by definition is "the crime of unlawfully killing A PERSON especially with malice aforethought" is just plain nonsense and offensive. And also it turns out that calling it assassination or murder is a technique that they use to win arguments and to touch the heart of the audience to make you look bad.

They also use the "yes they are human beings because the embryo belongs to the human specie" argument when they know we refer to the philosophical definition that makes us human beings which basically in short words our functioning brain, not the fucking common name of our specie. They refuse to accept that the philosophical definition of human being is what we also call a person.

I'm a libertarian in my political way of thinking, but the first fundamental right of the libertarians is "the right to life". That's where we differ among us. I say that right only applies to persons, persons that already born and gained that right. It can't be that an embryo has more rights than the REAL PERSON that carries it inside. Pro-life libertarians are just brain dead and influenced by their religious views of morality.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26419714 - 01/06/20 05:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, anti-abortion ppl be like that...

But pro-abortion people just keep going on and on about how fetuses aren’t people, and that abortion isn’t murder...

I think it doesn’t matter. You should be able to kill anything AND anyone who is living inside your body.

There was no after-credits scene in Alien where the narrator explains that tiny aliens don’t have developed brains. Cause it’s a movie about extraterrestrial parasites. Embryos are terrestrial parasites.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420024 - 01/06/20 08:55 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It makes no sense what you are saying. I didn't invent the definition of what people is or what murder is. I just the way it is, both definitions doesn't even come closer to an embryo.


Edited by Anonymous (01/06/20 09:31 PM)


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420224 - 01/07/20 12:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

i Didn’t say you invented anything... I said you keep bringing up this one argument, when there are 100 other reasons for being pro-choice.

Say in 1000 years it WAS proven to be a human person at conception. Would you suddenly be anti-abortion?


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420558 - 01/07/20 08:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
i Didn’t say you invented anything... I said you keep bringing up this one argument, when there are 100 other reasons for being pro-choice.

Say in 1000 years it WAS proven to be a human person at conception. Would you suddenly be anti-abortion?




What of the other 100 reasons could be more important than what we are talking? The main reason that anti-abortion people brings is that we are all murderers.

Saying that in 1000 years it could be proven to be a human person at conception, is like saying that in 1000 years the earth could be proven to be flat.

But let's say for the sake of the argument that an embryo is proven to be a person because it can fully reach consciousness some how. I would still be pro-choice since i would argue that the women can still decide if they want to kill the little human persons that they carry inside since is their body BUT i would have no more weapons to refuse that they are murderers against the pro-life supporters, only the weapon of "is their body their choice" but in a court that would have much less weight. Luckily that is not the case. Now, if i was a women in that hypothetical scenario that embryos are persons, i couldn't do it, morally i could kill a conscious person, only if i was raped but if it was my fault for not using condoms or whatever, morally i couldn't do it :shrug:


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420567 - 01/07/20 08:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You contradicted yourself multiple times in one post,

You ask “what’s a more important reason”, then state that you’d still be pro-choice if this reason was disproved.
You say you’d never get an abortion, in that case, because it’s immoral. But then you pist off some moral reasons to be pro-choice anyway.
You say there’s no excuse for “murder”, but then name rape as one of the excuses for murder.

I think you’re more on the fence than pro-choice. Choice has nothing to do with weather your parasite is a person or a tapeworm. You should still be able to choose what happens inside your own body.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420622 - 01/07/20 09:19 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
You contradicted yourself multiple times in one post,

1.- You ask “what’s a more important reason”, then state that you’d still be pro-choice if this reason was disproved.
2.- You say you’d never get an abortion, in that case, because it’s immoral. But then you pist off some moral reasons to be pro-choice anyway.
3.-You say there’s no excuse for “murder”, but then name rape as one of the excuses for murder.

I think you’re more on the fence than pro-choice. Choice has nothing to do with weather your parasite is a person or a tapeworm. You should still be able to choose what happens inside your own body.




We were talking in a hypothetical scenario. Since that scenario doesn't exist the 3 points above do not give space to contradictions in reality.

1.- I would be pro-choice since I'm not the one taking that decision anyways, you don't have to intervene even if you think is morally wrong which is what pro-life are currently doing :shrug:

2.- What moral reasons?

3.- Yep, raping is a perfect excuse to kill a human conscious embryo even if it was called murderer by definition. I never said there was no excuse for murder. Where did i say that? Don't put words in my mouth i didn't say.

Tell me the other 100 reasons worth to discuss against the pro-life supporters that are more important than what defines a person?


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420646 - 01/07/20 09:35 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Choice has nothing to do with weather your parasite is a person or a tapeworm. You should still be able to choose what happens inside your own body.




So you think killing a 9 months old conscious fetus should be legal? You also think it should be morally fine? Or not?


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420648 - 01/07/20 09:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

“Since that scenario doesn't exist the 3 points above do not give space to contradictions in reality“

I’m sorry, but there’s no point of continuing this if you don’t even understand what a contradiction is.

That last bit is revealing too. “Reasons to discuss against pro-life...”. Shows that you’re not so much pro-choice as you are anti pro-life.
Being Pro-choice is about giving women the choice, not about whether an embryo is human🤷🏻‍♂️


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420649 - 01/07/20 09:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #1 said:
Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Choice has nothing to do with weather your parasite is a person or a tapeworm. You should still be able to choose what happens inside your own body.




So you think killing a 9 months old conscious fetus should be legal? You also think it should be morally fine? Or not?



9 month old fetus? That’s a baby, ain’t it?

Like I said, you should be able to kill anything that lives inside your body.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420665 - 01/07/20 09:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Being Pro-choice is about giving women the choice, not about whether an embryo is human🤷🏻‍♂️




That comes whether or not you think a person right to life should be given to those that already were born or if you think there should be a middle point between conception and giving birth to give rights to a fetus. I personally think there should be a middle point. You seem to think the baby has to be born to give him rights. You are a Ayn Rand objectivist. She thought that a human being only acquires rights once he/she is born, she thought killing a 9 months unborn fetus was morally correct and that it should be legal as well. 

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Quote:

Anonymous #1 said:
Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Choice has nothing to do with weather your parasite is a person or a tapeworm. You should still be able to choose what happens inside your own body.




So you think killing a 9 months old conscious fetus should be legal? You also think it should be morally fine? Or not?



9 month old fetus? That’s a baby, ain’t it?

Like I said, you should be able to kill anything that lives inside your body.




Yes is basically an unborn baby. Ok so you think it should be legal for a women to murder/abort an unborn 9 months fetus and also you think is morally correct? Because you are pro-choice right?


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420669 - 01/07/20 09:56 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Lol I said “you’re on the fence, not pro-choice” like 5 posts ago. Now you reiterate it and, somehow, see that as a rebuke of my definition of “pro-choice”? Got it.

Why ask the same thing twice on one page?
But ok, here I go again:
Like I said, you should be able to kill anything that lives inside your body.


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420687 - 01/07/20 10:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Like I said, you should be able to kill anything that lives inside your body.




Oh ok, so you think it should be legal 9 months fetus abortion, got it. Well that by definition is murder :smile: and without entering in hypothetical scenarios.


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Anonymous #2

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #26420693 - 01/07/20 10:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Do you have a point though?


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Anonymous #1

Re: Unpopular opinion. Embryos are not human beings or persons. [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #26420760 - 01/07/20 10:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Anonymous #2 said:
Do you have a point though?




Yes, Ayn Rand believed that a person only acquired rights once it borns. She was an objectivist, I'm a objectivist as well. I base my morality and the legality of the abortion based in scientific facts. I'm sure if Ayn Rand when she was alive knew that a 24 weeks (6 month) fetus brain was totally capable of generating consciousness and NOT before, she would have move that line to month 6, but neurology was not that advanced by the time she died, so she was as objectively as she could with the scientific knowledge that it was available at that time.

I'm sorry but being pro-choice has its limits, if for you killing a 9 month fetus is legally and morally fine. Then you have some serious problems. A woman can decide if she wants it or not in the first 3 months, is more than enough to let them choose if you are a "pro-choice".

The more objectivist form of view is to give rights of a person to a 6 month fetus and not before. This is no longer black or white, there is a gray area and we must choose a middle point to give rights to a fetus. Embryos and 3 months old fetus are definitely not persons… and they will never be by definition.


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