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OfflineIntoTheMaelstrom
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Registered: 01/06/20
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Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? * 1
    #26420581 - 01/07/20 08:49 AM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Hiya everyone,

I have been trying to go over the commercial strains of cubensis shrooms to understand the differences between them, namely in terms of “magic contents” and, since I’m far from being an expert, I was wondering if I could get some input. From what I understand:

- The “magic” comes from the 2 main bioactive indole alkaloids psilocybin and psilocin (should we also be looking at baeocystin?)

- In terms of magic mushroom species, we have azurescens as the strongest, then the baeocystis, followed by bohemica and only then the cubensis, followed by all the others.

- In terms of cubensis strains themselves, all I seem to find online in terms of “magic comparison” is anecdotal evidence mostly based on user feedback rather than actual lab studies and, depending on the source, people will mention penis envy, z strain (tbc...), mexicana, thai, etc as the “strongest” - but I can’t seem to find any sort of chart where all these different opinions are consolidated to provide an overall picture.

So, my questions/comments:

1. Can we buy any of the other species reported to be more potent than cubensis (azurescens, baeocystis and bohemica)? - if so, where and, if not, any idea why not?

2. Is there an actual “absolute” difference between these different cubensis strains in terms of their of “magic contents” which is defined by genetics alone, or can these differences be overridden/heavily influenced by environmental factors (substrate, temperature, humidity, light exposure, etc)?

3. Can I find somewhere you know of some sort of psychotropic contents’ comparison between the most popular commercial strains? Ie average quantity of each of those alkaloids per x amount of each strain?

4. In terms of hybrid strains, z in specific, I read that it’s an azurescens-cubensis hybrid. Given the fact that azurescens seem to be far more potent than cubensis, should we assume that this strain will be more potent than the “pure” cubensis ones?

Thanks and cheers :smile:


--------------------
“I drank to drown my sorrows, but the damned things learnt how to swim” (Frida Khalo, 1907-1954)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: IntoTheMaelstrom]
    #26420640 - 01/07/20 09:31 AM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Hey buddy,

I’ll try and respond to a few of your points.

But first, I don’t think you mentioned Liberty Caps in your relative strength section (Psilocybe Semilanceata). It is up there above cubensis on the potency chart.

I think a lot of your questions can be answered by: The Shroomery Doseage Calculator

Also, Google is your friend, as is the search option at the top right of your screen.

I have tried a few “strains” of cubensis; b+, Ecuador, Golden Teacher. To me anyway, they’re all much of a muchness with relatively minor differences.

But I think the key you need to understand, especially if you want to come up with a relative potency scale, is that the psychedelic experience is very much dependent on both the amount AND the ratio of psychoactive chemicals. So yes some species are higher in psychoactive content. But that doesn’t explain all the differences. My reasoning, using the above doseage calculator you can work out what dried or wet weight you need for a particular “level” of trip. Cubensis heroic dose is 4.92g whereas Liberty Cap heroic dose is 3.65 dried grams. I have had heroic doses of both species, and the trips are RADICALLY different. Which may be down in no small part to the Liberty Caps’ relatively high baeocystin content, relative to other species.

Hope this helps,
DJ Ed


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OfflineIntoTheMaelstrom
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26420726 - 01/07/20 10:25 AM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Hey, thanks for the information but, as I mentioned previously, using the search box on top of my screen, I find nothing other than anecdotal information based on reported individual user experience, which is not corroborated by any laboratorial studies or clinical trials.

The problem with the calculators (the one you sent me the link to as well as others available online) is precisely that they tend to compare species and not subspecies/strains (which is what sellers normally refer to the different shrooms as), so it doesn’t answer my question.

As for baeocystin and norbaeocystin [which I’m most interested in not due to the “hallucinatory” effect itself (they are supposed to be only mildly psychedelic or not psychedelic at all) but due to it being a serotonin isomer that might have an impact on its modulation - I’m actually keen to know if it affects serotonin reuptake but that’s another story], again, all my friend google tells me refers to broad clinical assumptions and a couple of user reports, at best.

My apologies, I probably wasn’t clear enough, but I’m not trying to find out how to get the highest high, I’m actually trying to understand the biology (and chemistry) of the different subspecies/strains or whatever the correct technical term may be.

Thanks, cheers :smile:


--------------------
“I drank to drown my sorrows, but the damned things learnt how to swim” (Frida Khalo, 1907-1954)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: IntoTheMaelstrom]
    #26420750 - 01/07/20 10:32 AM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Fair do’s, pal, thank you for clarifying. I try much harder these days to weed out the “fake news”; anecdotal evidence though can be pretty powerful. I tend to trust the guys here on the shroomery, they’ve given me great advice in the past.

I have a few books by Paul Stamets (cost me a small fortune!) on mycology, and loads of books on the experience, and on various metaphysical topics. I can’t think of where I could send you that is definitely based on concrete evidence though. The doseage calculator here basically does caveat out various concerns, and states it is based on many sources of data, with the median used. But to give you a correct reference, I’m really sorry, not much help.

From what I have read, however, and from the sources I have gone to for such potency comparisons, is that they all have many caveats as to the variability within each / all psychoactive mushroom species.

Maybe try touching base with the people, whoever they are, that provide the psilocybin to the various research bodies; maybe contact the research bodies (Johns Hopkins, for example) as a starter for ten...

Hope some of the much wiser people on here can help you out.

Take care,
DJ Ed


Edited by DJ Ed (01/07/20 10:41 AM)


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InvisibleTangich

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Registered: 10/28/09
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26421111 - 01/07/20 01:25 PM (4 years, 22 days ago)

1. Yes, Panaeolus cyanescens, cambodginiensis and tropicalis. 5X stronger than cubensis, probably stronger than azurescens. Psilocybe semperviva is also insanely strong. Psilocybe tampnensis and mexicana are also stronger than cubensis by weight.

2. No, it is all very variable.

3. No, there is no such thing.

4. No, that's just a lie, there are no cubensis hybrids with other psychoactive mushrooms.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: IntoTheMaelstrom]
    #26421161 - 01/07/20 01:54 PM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

IntoTheMaelstrom said:
actual lab studies




That's asking too much at this point.

Go with anecdotal reports especially if they all tend to note the same points.

But be aware that that's just the broad strokes, as every strain you'll grow will have slightly different traits, and if you grow enough you'll develop strong favorites all out of proportion to what you might THINK the broad differences are. :shrug: 

This SFAIK is because every strain is a slightly different genetic take on the mushroom.  And that's not even looking at epigenetic switches, which might be a powerful modifier - I've seen radical transformation in Ps cyan growth habits based on heat shock, and so, presumably, epigenetic effects. :shrugs:

It's part of the experience really, finding out what's out there. :cookiemonster:

The above just applies to cubes.

If you're looking at different species, all bets are pretty much off.  Woodlovers like Ps semi and Ps cyan are much more interesting than cubes IME.  But also more trouble to grow - if even possible.

And then there's Pan cyans - on my list to fruit - not so hard relatively but many varieties with apparently interesting effects.

Recent research https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26348567 indicates other actives and/or modifiers.  Think of any psychoactive mushroom as possessing synergistic effects depending on major actives (known) and modifiers (perhaps unknown).  There's not enough study looking for stuff that exists only at very low levels yet.

You can buy spores for many species and varieties - check the sponsors: https://www.shroomery.org/sponsors.php

Quote:

In terms of hybrid strains, z in specific, I read that it’s an azurescens-cubensis hybrid.




Smells like BS or hype.  But then I've heard the internet never lies. :laugh2:


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Edited by PrimalSoup (01/07/20 02:12 PM)


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OfflineIntoTheMaelstrom
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Re: Shroom magic - a comparison between cubensis strains? [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26421443 - 01/07/20 04:28 PM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Thank you! That’s very thorough! And thank you for the links - you’ve definitely given me some reading to do! Cheers!


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“I drank to drown my sorrows, but the damned things learnt how to swim” (Frida Khalo, 1907-1954)


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