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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26413357 - 01/02/20 09:48 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

So people can't determine anything?

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26413361 - 01/02/20 09:51 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Free will to me is a bartering system of time, planning and effort.

I do not think determinism forces us to do anything, I think it limits us. In a very broad sense, because we can do, and achieve, and attain a vast array of assortments, though I don’t think it’s limitless. Exceptional but not limitless.

I don’t think our choosing is 'forced' by the truth of the proposition that describes my action. That we are not "forced" to choose one action rather than another.

To someone who doesn’t believe in the ephemeral, you are an evolving soul.
To someone who does believe we evolved, consciousness is something where the whole is as great as the sum of its parts.
As someone who believes that to an extent, knowledge is power, we can predict with great probability that the Sun will rise each morning, and that until such time as there is better information, I shall have faith in the sun.

And so we say, praise the sun. :sun:



Sol invictus :smile:

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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26413366 - 01/02/20 09:53 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
A more realistic definition of free will might be; a capability to plan and act within relative limits.




I think this is pure genius!

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Invisiblesudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Rahz]
    #26413591 - 01/03/20 02:42 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The theory would be about the systemics and systematics of biological mechanisms.

I would like to hear your opinion on whether or not random events led to the eventual collapse of the 8th wonder of the world, due to engineering oversights of not replacing cast iron with steel base securing nails.

It is a set of goals lined up within a system that allows for a clearer conceptual basis, something relative to rely on. A grave engineering loss but great insight and fortunately no lives were lost.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26413998 - 01/03/20 09:54 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Quote:

sudly said:
A more realistic definition of free will might be; a capability to plan and act within relative limits.




I think this is pure genius!



to create plans as things change?
to manage changes?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26414245 - 01/03/20 11:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

having rules about ones garden

meditating and doing yoga

to go through life innocently and so ones life is fruitful

and so ones garden is fruitful

and doesn't become less in quality

and so it becomes of higher quality

they are well meaning angels

like friends


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world

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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26414312 - 01/03/20 12:48 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

To me 'Free will' is an abstraction people like to talk about for entertainment/socialization.. Few people ever engage it seriously or maybe they are but are severely limited in their understanding.

Were far past the point of constructive philosophy and more centered on 'circling the same mountain for community'.

Sufficient minds have a broad and deep enough understanding at this point to actually create and construct with their conceptual framing, in this comes a manifested workable truth that will get people to move forward with thinking. Nothing else will at this juncture. This goes for a broad number of topics in philosophy/science. Until something is created/instantiated, its gonna continue to be : He said/she said.. Here's my views.. here's yours. Little to no effort is put into constructing something higher just blurting out one's often flawed and limited viewpoint.

To me, every-time this topic is brought up, it's the same ol' same ol pronouncements. A great deal severally wrong-headed and narrow-minded reflecting a notable trait of free-will : You only have as much as you are aware of. So, there's something partly funny in these conversations is that by expressed limit of understanding/framing of the concept, a person necessarily is voicing their limited awareness and free-will. When a person says there is no free-will what they are really stating is that they have a limited awareness/understanding of the universe and thus feel like they don't have much will in it. When a person says the concept is too complex to understand what they are saying is that they don't have a complex understanding of it.

The time in this era is to put fire to these things and see what remains after.
There's enough of the same misguided/limited pronouncements to fill a Google data center. Not much is going to be achieved by the continual copy/pasta of the same ol thinking.

The big kick comes when these abstract concepts are manifested in a computer system.
That's when you'll hear silence followed by people's heads exploding
:nicesmile:

Oh you thought that's how free-will worked? How that metaphysical process functioned? That this could never be manifested in the material world?

Oh that's not possible.. you can't do that


At this point, people will finally move on and maybe some progress can occur.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? *DELETED* [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26414493 - 01/03/20 02:31 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Post deleted by laughingdog

Reason for deletion: x

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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26414762 - 01/03/20 05:24 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Seems you are very close...or




I was close years ago. Some years after that and with persistence I got workable theories which I worked out proofs and prototypes for. Upon doing so, things occurred which I postulated were 'messages' from the Universe to slow/halt my progress. Part of it was physically enforced. Another part was me taking stake in a persistent force I felt telling me to spend more time observing/understanding the world. Work was put on the back burner and I observed the world unfolding more. I took a dive into esoteric studies, mysticism, religion.. I combed through human history as if I was an anthropologist. The knowledge/understanding I gained was invaluable and tempered my efforts. I came to conclusions and tested them by interacting with various communities in the present. I felt ready to go forward multiple times but there was a persistent barrier that I had become acquainted with. That barrier was removed at the start of the year. I am now focused on putting fire to my completed research. Maybe you'll make reference to this post in the future and find a funny correlation to a technological development. Maybe not. Nonethless, I have been given the green light.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
but also seems....until you understand why it's all on the level of "Here's my views.. here's yours" you will not understand why "some progress can occur" is a false hope, and that rather it "should" read: 'No progress can occur'.




Understanding often comes long before manifestation of a great thing... It comes in a way that changes a person. It tempers and calms you. Begs you to take reflection on the understanding most of all. Manifestation of such great things by such people only come after a long waiting period/digestion.

I have sought for years to find community/people truly after this thing but find any. From the ivory tower of academics, to the billion dollar startups chasing the holy grail, to the mystics, occultist, to the psychedelic cosmonauts, the materialist, the biologist, the neuroscientists, to the spiritually enlighten... I found no companion. No true searcher or anyone with the desire to make the necessary sacrifices and take the necessary journey to grasp it. Now, at the turn of the year I focus on manifestation.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
This why it was said very long ago:
"Those who speak do not know,
and those who know do not speak."




Which is why you'll never hear free-will explained in enough detail such that you have a working definition.
For a person privy to such understanding will also understand why it should never been spoken of plainly.
Interestingly, the details have been in front of humanity for quite some time esp in the prior age and are still accessible if one is truly seeking them.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
One can see / test the truth of this for oneself, as
often even when a correct answer is given,
it is ignored.




:nicesmile:
Seems you have an awareness of sorts...

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Seems until you understand why it's all on the level of "Here's my views",
which just might include us! you will not understand why it is said:
"those who speak do not know,
and those who know, do not speak."
(Which is of course a view not in any sense a personal or original view on 'my' part.)

Silence is a strange master.
Time (4 me) once again to rejoin her.
But she gives no gold stars, grades, income, credit (in any of its multiple meanings), memberships, IOUs, or trading cards.



I have devised tests to weigh this. In conversation, for something significant enough, I carefully encode an place bits of pieces of details. If the person has a depth of understanding sufficiently similar, they will grasp, decode and respond back with other fitting and proportional pieces in encoded language.

From there, we dance a little bit until we see 'eye to eye'. It's occurred twice in my life and on my current journey. In both cases, it was present enough for us both to understand we couldn't entertain the mindshare longer for deeper reasons and we parted ways. In the broad majority of the other cases, a person never even picks up what I'm putting down.

Silence and cliche sayings like : "Those who speak do not know,and those who know do not speak" often don't carrying the weight they are purported to carry. A person who doesn't know anything nor can contribute anything more is smart to be silent but their silence doesn't portend they have deeper understanding.. Quite the opposite in my experience.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26415156 - 01/03/20 08:46 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

values?


--------------------
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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26415192 - 01/03/20 09:12 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
values?



Proportionate value
:loldongs:

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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26415494 - 01/04/20 03:37 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

becoming better

not doing something negative

doing as good as positive

not going off track

being there as much as possible

getting as far as possible


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26415530 - 01/04/20 05:41 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

great list


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26415623 - 01/04/20 07:58 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Sometimes people are just looking for advice :shrug:


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26419581 - 01/06/20 04:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Another funny aspect of free will 'discussions' is that they are often taken very seriously, while at the same time, strangely, a very important part of being human is ignored.

Namely that very important life experiences are often precisely those that involve no free will.

How about 'falling in love'?, - which most certainly, quite often effects the rest of a person's life.
or
The emotions one experiences if one is present for the birth of one's child..
or
the death of a family member.

More rare cases, are those like religious 'conversions'. Although rarer there is perhaps no comparison, in terms of an unwilled experience, changing an entire life.

Then there are people who rescue others (from drowning for example), and when asked afterwards: "How did you dare in the dangerous circumstances?" Answer: "I didn't think".

That  free will 'discussions'  are often taken very seriously, while at the same time, strangely, many important 'parts' or aspects of being human (like the above) are ignored, perhaps itself says something interesting about so called 'free will'.

Almost seems like the more seriously we take ourselves, often the sillier we appear to others, although they may politely, only smile ambiguously. Seems a nice thing about laughter, is that its so enjoyable, while being spontaneous, and free of Will and his sister.

Edited by laughingdog (01/06/20 05:08 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26420096 - 01/06/20 09:36 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

how we live through those kinds of intensely emotionally challenging experiences is probably the best way to frame will and how we can be awake and dignified even when working through the challenges, free of self pity.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26420210 - 01/06/20 11:44 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I think it’s nice to want to hear out developing opinions in an open and tolerate discussion board.

We have free will in as much a similar way as we can hold off going to the toilet.
There are boundaries even on oceans.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26420273 - 01/07/20 01:35 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe freewill takes you..?

Rather than you taking freewill.

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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26420278 - 01/07/20 01:47 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
I think it’s nice to want to hear out developing opinions in an open and tolerate discussion board.

We have free will in as much a similar way as we can hold off going to the toilet.
There are boundaries even on oceans.




This is well said, and I think speaks volumes about the different ways we all think about the varying complexity of will, choice, destiny/fatalism, etc.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Problem with Free Will...? [Re: sudly]
    #26420695 - 01/07/20 10:08 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
The theory would be about the systemics and systematics of biological mechanisms.

I would like to hear your opinion on whether or not random events led to the eventual collapse of the 8th wonder of the world, due to engineering oversights of not replacing cast iron with steel base securing nails.

It is a set of goals lined up within a system that allows for a clearer conceptual basis, something relative to rely on. A grave engineering loss but great insight and fortunately no lives were lost.




Goals are set by choices, but it's the nature of choice that is unclear. I mean, humans clearly make choices, but would free will be a part of the value judgement that goes into making choices? Or are such qualitative judgements purely the result of best effort math? Subjective choice is trickier. Blue used to be my favorite color. I found it pleasant. I did not choose to find it pleasant. Later on I realized I didn't have a favorite color, except to say all the primary and secondary colors are pleasant. These observations were not the product of choice but rather simply paying attention.

Anyway, bit of a tangent. Free will is often associated with blame, in contrast to fault. One of the reasons I like the idea of no free will is the absence of blame, or usefulness in blaming. There are mistakes and faults, but not worth getting upset about. Religion uses free will to justify burning for eternity... they deserved it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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