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DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


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Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies
#26417028 - 01/05/20 04:26 AM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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Good morning, Shroomery,
I’ve been giving a lot of thought to the psilocybin studies in recent times. In resurrecting a load of the great studies from the 50s and 60s, it seems a lot of the early research may have not been that ‘scientific’. By that, I am referring to the so-called “double blind” aspects. In this type of study, participants are given either a placebo or psilocybin; neither the participants nor the guides know what is given to whom.
But it is obvious to everyone concerned who got the placebo and who got the psilocybin!! Duh....
Apparently this difficulty in studying psychedelic states is compounded in terms of “normal” medical studies because of this double blind effect.
So I had a couple of thoughts on how to conduct psychedelic research whilst maintaining some degree of “double-blind”:-
- participants are given either 20mg psilocybin (approx 3.5g dry cubensis) or 30mg psilocybin (approx 5g dry cubensis); then the differing effects of each trip are studied and compared
- on some studies have an additional guide but who also takes a dose of psilocybin; then compare patients on lower dose, higher dose, and guide.
Anyone else ever think about these studies and how they could be improved, such that the medical establishment is more likely to accept the results?
Mush love, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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Sankhara
Trump's lost child


Registered: 02/11/18
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Re: Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies [Re: DJ Ed]
#26417054 - 01/05/20 05:50 AM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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This discussion has already been made between the professionals who study psychedelics. The studies on course, many use other substances like ketamine as a placebo
-------------------- How would you rate the quality of my answer?
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician



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Re: Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies [Re: Sankhara]
#26417141 - 01/05/20 08:02 AM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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Have you read "how to change your mind"? I've been digging deep into that book lately, and have been learning a ton about the studies that they were doing in the 50's and 60's. It's actually quite fascinating - if you haven't, I'd pick it up and give it a read.
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DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Quote:
Vibe_Enthusiast said: Have you read "how to change your mind"? I've been digging deep into that book lately, and have been learning a ton about the studies that they were doing in the 50's and 60's. It's actually quite fascinating - if you haven't, I'd pick it up and give it a read.
I have literally just finished the book and put it down ✊🏻 It is one of the best-written accounts of psychedelics that I have read; I can not recommend it highly enough, especially to psychonauts. But yeah, that’s what’s really got me thinking about the various studies. I’ve even checked out some of the Johns Hopkins playlists on Spotify. I’ve come back to psychedelics to assist with treating depression. The discussions in Michael Pollan’s book on this topic are fascinating and thought-provoking. I’m starting to feel real optimism, not just for myself.
Mush love, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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daysbetween
Stranger

Registered: 10/23/19
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Re: Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies [Re: DJ Ed]
#26417267 - 01/05/20 10:03 AM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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I believe Methylphenidate (ritalin) was used as a control in some of the studies as it has a similar onset and duration.
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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician



Registered: 10/16/18
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Re: Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies [Re: DJ Ed]
#26417269 - 01/05/20 10:04 AM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
DJ Ed said:
Quote:
Vibe_Enthusiast said: Have you read "how to change your mind"? I've been digging deep into that book lately, and have been learning a ton about the studies that they were doing in the 50's and 60's. It's actually quite fascinating - if you haven't, I'd pick it up and give it a read.
I have literally just finished the book and put it down ✊🏻 It is one of the best-written accounts of psychedelics that I have read; I can not recommend it highly enough, especially to psychonauts. But yeah, that’s what’s really got me thinking about the various studies. I’ve even checked out some of the Johns Hopkins playlists on Spotify. I’ve come back to psychedelics to assist with treating depression. The discussions in Michael Pollan’s book on this topic are fascinating and thought-provoking. I’m starting to feel real optimism, not just for myself.
Mush love, DJ Ed
It very much is a great book! I bought it a few months ago.. and just picked it up to really start reading (life has been busy) - and wow, once you get started, you almost don't want to put it down. Very much thought provoking - we're on the edge of things here my man.
I believe big things are going to start coming to surface in the next 5/10 years - and I hope I can be apart of it. It's very optimistic. Gives a lot of us hope that a lot of mental illnesses may be managed or "cured" within the correct usage of psychedelics.
Only at chapter 3 right now - looking forward to what else this book has to offer! But yeah, when I read this thread it literally was in sync with what I'm reading at this exact moment
Quote:
daysbetween said: I believe Methylphenidate (ritalin) was used as a control in some of the studies as it has a similar onset and duration.
That's what I read as well. Also, niacin. They've done more studies of the double blind clinical studies at Yale for correlating OCD and Psilcoybin.
Very interesting shit when you start digging deep.
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DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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I’d be very interested to learn about the OCD studies; close family member. But then I’ve pondered on this: would,I recommend psychedelics to a family friend / member or not? It’s a tough ethical one at the moment.....just in case, you know what I mean?
Mush love, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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Vibe_Enthusiast
Mushroom Technician



Registered: 10/16/18
Posts: 2,420
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Re: Double-Blind Psilocybin Studies [Re: DJ Ed]
#26417915 - 01/05/20 04:49 PM (4 years, 24 days ago) |
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Quote:
DJ Ed said: I’d be very interested to learn about the OCD studies; close family member. But then I’ve pondered on this: would,I recommend psychedelics to a family friend / member or not? It’s a tough ethical one at the moment.....just in case, you know what I mean?
Mush love, DJ Ed
Man, that's a question I've asked myself for quite sometime. I don't really bring anything up with things of such with family.. because I am MUCH different than most of my family. Better for me to keep my mouth shut on that side of the fence. My friends however, I've 'lead' them to their experiences.
I always would share my mushrooms with quite a lot of my friends. Mostly when we would go for hikes or on a camping trip I would bring a little bag of mushrooms (for me but enough to give out if people were to ask for some). This has seemed to be one of the best ways to get people aware of them at least.
Nothing being forced, not giving them too much where they lose their shit, and in the perfect setting, nature & beautiful sky's with a fire (can't really go wrong with that huh )
That's about as far as I go with trying to put people on. I just try and create an awareness other than a "diagnoses" - you know what I'm getting at I'm sure. If I can create an awareness for them, then they can take matters into their own hands, do their research and prepare for more internal work or whatever it may be.
But yeah, I don't go around saying "want help fixing this about yourself - magic mushrooms!" haha. I really wish I could try and help spread awareness with a lot of my family and whatnot. But, a lot of them are on the older side and I do believe they're stuck in the 60's with the whole stigma. Really don't want to step on anyone's toes, nor create some weird tension.
But hey, then again.. can't judge a book by it's cover. Maybe some of my family does take them and just keeps it 'hush hush' like I do, unless the subject comes across.
And oh man, do I love when I hear someone bringing up such a discussion. Give me a beer and let's FUCKING TALK. Haha. But this is all objective. Your family's different than mine. You kind of know the vibes you get off them, and how things would register if you were to say something. With them becoming decriminalized and all, that's some pretty solid awareness for the one's with all the stigmas they still attach themselves and the mushrooms to! So, maybe time will do the job for us - other than us stepping on the wrong person's toes
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DJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer


Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
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Quote:
Vibe_Enthusiast said:
Man, that's a question I've asked myself for quite sometime. I don't really bring anything up with things of such with family.. because I am MUCH different than most of my family. Better for me to keep my mouth shut on that side of the fence. My friends however, I've 'lead' them to their experiences. ======= And oh man, do I love when I hear someone bringing up such a discussion. Give me a beer and let's FUCKING TALK. Haha. But this is all objective. Your family's different than mine. You kind of know the vibes you get off them, and how things would register if you were to say something. With them becoming decriminalized and all, that's some pretty solid awareness for the one's with all the stigmas they still attach themselves and the mushrooms to! So, maybe time will do the job for us - other than us stepping on the wrong person's toes

Me and you are so like sometimes, Vibe_Enthusiast, it’s unreal!
Yeah I’ve been the black sheep of the family all my life; intelligent and sent to public school but also a rebel and explorer! Mum and dad are stuck in the 60s anti-counter-culture mentality that all drugs are bad: you should have seen them when I was a kid smoking like chimneysnand rolling home pissed! But hey nicotine and alcohol are not drugs, right?
Dad is still stubborn as hell: i wish I could get him to read David Nutt: Drugs Without The Hot Air, and Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind. I don’t think any amount of scientific research would change their views, now both into their 80s, so I resist the temptation to speak to them!
The OCD query is in relation to my daughter who is nearly 15. She has the same attitude to drugs as my dad! My plan is to talk to her about alternative remedies when she hits 18. But again the ethics of involving close family: I will have to be certain.....
A more pressing problem: a real good old rave mate is showing interest in mushrooms, but he is changing jobs and moving to Germany in a couple of months. I know he could handle mushrooms (he is 47, and has had them years ago - though too high a dose resulting in a bad trip). Because he’s my friend and not family, the ethical aspects are t as pressing to me, if that makes sense. But am I being selfish in wanting him to trip, not just for his benefit but because I would love to have at least one trip with a friend? The amount of research and preparation I am doing for this joint trip is so much more in depth than I would do for myself. So clearly I do have a feeling of responsibility for his welfare. Your suggestion of a low dose while walking sounds like a perfect re-introduction for someone to mushrooms, but this time of year in the north west of England, walking isn’t fun!
I’ve given him loads of information to red, a few books, and given him loads of anecdotal information from my trips. I reckon best way forwards now is to leave him alone and let him come back to me......
If and when it does happen, I’ll post a trip report in here about my perceptions of tripping with a friend. Could be a couple of months, but if he goes to Germany it could be 3-5 years!
Take care, DJ Ed
-------------------- “It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.” Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind “The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.” Terence McKenna

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