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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 3
#26418742 - 01/06/20 05:05 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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RJ Tubs 202 said:
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Ice9 said:
The whole PC thing is like the war on christmas... I like it seems fun
It's incredibly entertaining. There's a constant parade of outrage orgies.
This week some black people are mad at Kylie Jenner, who has been accused of cultural appropriation after this photo of her braided hair. I guess you need to check your skin color before you choose a hair style? Every week there's fun drama from the outrage crowd. God bless their tiny pitiful lives.

The cultural appropriation thing is the worst of it IMO. Like certain cultures have a monopoly on certain styles & shit.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: feldman114]
#26418777 - 01/06/20 06:11 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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feldman114 said: ... I don’t disagree with you, but I think we have to take a step back to see this issue clearly. Sure, unskilled workers will suffer due to things like self-checkout, but that’s only going to affect the current workforce. As more unskilled jobs become automated, people entering the workforce will seek more education and training. As for people who just can’t hack it at college (nothing wrong with that), trade schools are a great option. I’d trade my degree for masonry/welding skills in a heartbeat... And I don’t imagine automation of skilled labor in any foreseeable future - robots that climb your house to fix your roof or a leaky pipe are just sci-fi for now. My point is, there are no long-term downsides.
Also, idk if I can agree with automation only benefiting the upper class. I think it’s a correlation, not a cause-effect situation. The wealth gap has been exponentially growing during the entire period of time that automation has existed. And, let’s be real, even if automation was outlawed, the top 5% would find ways to fuck the rest of us all the same.
just for the sake of clarification am myself on a guaranteed livable income program for disability and am looking forward to a number of automation services improving my life for example, when human drivers are taken off the road for uniform self-driving vehicles that will liberate me to travel more -- am not able to drive, and currently rely on rides from friends and family to get places so automated vehicles will enhance my independence as a poor person at the bottom of the barrel
but am still critical of the way that automation is being used to phase out human employment and think you touched on the most problematic aspect of the US when you said: "...but that’s only going to affect the current workforce. As more unskilled jobs become automated, people entering the workforce will seek more education and training." this is both true, and an issue unless President Sanders wins in November and makes higher education free
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: Dark_Star] 2
#26418793 - 01/06/20 06:31 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Dark_Star said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
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Ice9 said:
The whole PC thing is like the war on christmas... I like it seems fun
It's incredibly entertaining. There's a constant parade of outrage orgies.
This week some black people are mad at Kylie Jenner, who has been accused of cultural appropriation after this photo of her braided hair. I guess you need to check your skin color before you choose a hair style? Every week there's fun drama from the outrage crowd. God bless their tiny pitiful lives.

The cultural appropriation thing is the worst of it IMO. Like certain cultures have a monopoly on certain styles & shit. 
my favourite is the (white) people who argue for an African monopoly on dreadlocks could see the wheels turning in their brains when asking me "do you know where that hairstyle comes from?" and everything grinding to a confused halt at my reply "well, spiritually follow Shaivite Hinduism, and dreadlocks have been a hairstyle worn in observance of his worship since time in pre-written history for the Indian subcontinent"
but compliments were a more common personal encounter than criticisms in stark contrast to the articles and social commentary made abstractly about "white people with dreadlocks are dirty" by people who likely did not interact with me
reflecting on any of my decade of dreadlocks makes me want to lock up my hair again QQ
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feldman114
Stragler


Registered: 09/06/19
Posts: 3,365
Loc: Bravos
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: Tantrika]
#26418831 - 01/06/20 07:06 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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bloodsheen said: Feldman that is some "let them eat cake" shit if I ever saw it. What does trade school have to do with there being a limited number of, for example, welding jobs? If we get to the point where trade school becomes the bare minimum to make a living wage (almost there already anyway), trade-based jobs become the new McDonald's jobs. Wages stagnate as competition for a select few jobs skyrockets, thus pushing the entire class system apart further from the middle.
Maybe you are right that a roofing robot is science fiction at the moment, but population continues to rise at an alarming rate. The days of "inventing the television creates television repair jobs" are over. We likely won't see it in our lifetime, but there really will be a time when robots repair other robots and by then our population will likely be out of control. Even if it's slow, the "living wage job creation to population growth" ratio will 100% only get worse from here.
There is one way out though. When raging forest fires burn half of our cities to the ground and the other half of cities are 10 feet under water, construction jobs will be absolutely everywhere. Can't build robots if nobody has a place to live
So robot welders exist? Don’t think so. I brought up trade school, because having a welding license is just as lucrative as having a business degree. More so, if you ask me. Google welding wages. I make $25/hr with a degree, and won’t make more until I get at least 5 years of experience on my resume.
Totally agree on overpopulation though. Kinda makes you wonder if climate change is the planet’s response...but that’s my foil hat talking now...
@Tantrika Okay, gotta concede that. I was so focused on one clusterfuck, I forgot all about the student debt clusterfuck
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
Loc: Hampsterdam
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: feldman114] 1
#26418835 - 01/06/20 07:08 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,201
Last seen: 1 hour, 28 minutes
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: feldman114] 2
#26418911 - 01/06/20 08:02 AM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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Robot welding has been a thing for like 40 years. All major manufacturers of cars use robot welders. The thing to understand is that robot welders are pretty dumb, you tell them to go through coordinates x,y,z,c,a at a set feed rate, once the commands have been completed they stop or repeat. There's no real time feed back, so when something is fucked up, they just keep repeating the fuck up. So you hope the product is good. There's little quality control until a person looks at it. Keep in mind, the programs required to run the robot welder are produced by humans who use complex software to generate the code, that software was built by other people. And when parts get made people still do the setup, they still interpret the quality control, they still are required for repair of welders, for adjustment of the robots when they are no longer in spec. The list goes on and on.
Robots are great at repetitive type welding. It's hard to build a machine that will crawl under a car and weld the muffler to the exhaust pipe, and it's really unprofitable to do that when you only fix 1 out of every 20 exhausts like that. So humans will always have the edge there, at least until we have Star Wars level robots that exhibit near total autonomy. When you look at even the worlds most advanced robots (CMU, MIT, and a few other research schools), these robots all operate on similar styles to the robots I described above. They have very dumb methods of walking, climbing, jumping. Yeah they can do incredible stuff, but if Kevin McCallister puts a blow torch on the door knob they are fucked. There is no dealing with that, they aren't capable in any way of adapting to things outside their basic operational functions. And if you've spent anytime even watching something like an Uber self driving car operate, you know how retarded they drive. Sure they occasionally get from point A to point B without issue, but as far as how they drive a car, they look like a third grader mowing the lawn for the first time. I live in Pittsburgh, there are at least four self driving car operations here, so I see it first hand all the time. For the record, the Tesla self driving software is easily the best out there. Waymo is a close second. These two company's are the only ones that have the kinematics of driving fairly operational. But they all use LIDAR and GPS data to drive, they aren't intuitive, they rely on data sets.
Welding is a great trade though, my father's uncle welded on a bunch of very high profile projects. For example, he worked on the Petronas towers. He made well over $100 an hour. He's since retired.
All of that said, the problem with the "automation eliminates jobs" argument is that we've been automating jobs for 140 years, maybe longer. Yet we have more jobs than we have ever had. I do think we will see a shift in the type of jobs though, and high education and high training type roles will be the best jobs to have. We don't yet have robots that will clean the shit off the walls of the McDonalds bathroom, or robots that will answer a phone all day and send emails or file payroll. In fact, where these processes have been automated we end up seeing backlash. Nobody likes talking to the automated phone system, all you do is try to trick it into getting you to a real person. Where human tellers have been replaced by touch screens, you see people standing in line for the single human teller instead. Large scale automation of jobs is a long way off, 50 years or more. That doesn't mean I am against universal income plans or other ways to anticipate this shift in job type, it's just that I think we are pretty naive as far as what the realities of this shift will truly be.
Finally, I agree that the anci-PCers are more annoying that the PCers. The anti-PCers are the first to get bent out of shape when you call them a retard, and by that standard alone they fail.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: Tantrika]
#26419912 - 01/06/20 07:41 PM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
Dark_Star said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
Ice9 said:
The whole PC thing is like the war on christmas... I like it seems fun
It's incredibly entertaining. There's a constant parade of outrage orgies.
This week some black people are mad at Kylie Jenner, who has been accused of cultural appropriation after this photo of her braided hair. I guess you need to check your skin color before you choose a hair style? Every week there's fun drama from the outrage crowd. God bless their tiny pitiful lives.

The cultural appropriation thing is the worst of it IMO. Like certain cultures have a monopoly on certain styles & shit. 
my favourite is the (white) people who argue for an African monopoly on dreadlocks could see the wheels turning in their brains when asking me "do you know where that hairstyle comes from?" and everything grinding to a confused halt at my reply "well, spiritually follow Shaivite Hinduism, and dreadlocks have been a hairstyle worn in observance of his worship since time in pre-written history for the Indian subcontinent"
but compliments were a more common personal encounter than criticisms in stark contrast to the articles and social commentary made abstractly about "white people with dreadlocks are dirty" by people who likely did not interact with me
reflecting on any of my decade of dreadlocks makes me want to lock up my hair again QQ
I’d have paid to see the look on their faces. Also....... looking at that picture of Kylie; those braids are blond.
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 13 days
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: christopera] 1
#26420058 - 01/06/20 09:15 PM (4 years, 23 days ago) |
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christopera said: Robot welding has been a thing for like 40 years. All major manufacturers of cars use robot welders. The thing to understand is that robot welders are pretty dumb, you tell them to go through coordinates x,y,z,c,a at a set feed rate, once the commands have been completed they stop or repeat. There's no real time feed back, so when something is fucked up, they just keep repeating the fuck up. So you hope the product is good. There's little quality control until a person looks at it. Keep in mind, the programs required to run the robot welder are produced by humans who use complex software to generate the code, that software was built by other people. And when parts get made people still do the setup, they still interpret the quality control, they still are required for repair of welders, for adjustment of the robots when they are no longer in spec. The list goes on and on.
Robots are great at repetitive type welding. It's hard to build a machine that will crawl under a car and weld the muffler to the exhaust pipe, and it's really unprofitable to do that when you only fix 1 out of every 20 exhausts like that. So humans will always have the edge there, at least until we have Star Wars level robots that exhibit near total autonomy. When you look at even the worlds most advanced robots (CMU, MIT, and a few other research schools), these robots all operate on similar styles to the robots I described above. They have very dumb methods of walking, climbing, jumping. Yeah they can do incredible stuff, but if Kevin McCallister puts a blow torch on the door knob they are fucked. There is no dealing with that, they aren't capable in any way of adapting to things outside their basic operational functions. And if you've spent anytime even watching something like an Uber self driving car operate, you know how retarded they drive. Sure they occasionally get from point A to point B without issue, but as far as how they drive a car, they look like a third grader mowing the lawn for the first time. I live in Pittsburgh, there are at least four self driving car operations here, so I see it first hand all the time. For the record, the Tesla self driving software is easily the best out there. Waymo is a close second. These two company's are the only ones that have the kinematics of driving fairly operational. But they all use LIDAR and GPS data to drive, they aren't intuitive, they rely on data sets.
Welding is a great trade though, my father's uncle welded on a bunch of very high profile projects. For example, he worked on the Petronas towers. He made well over $100 an hour. He's since retired.
All of that said, the problem with the "automation eliminates jobs" argument is that we've been automating jobs for 140 years, maybe longer. Yet we have more jobs than we have ever had. I do think we will see a shift in the type of jobs though, and high education and high training type roles will be the best jobs to have. We don't yet have robots that will clean the shit off the walls of the McDonalds bathroom, or robots that will answer a phone all day and send emails or file payroll. In fact, where these processes have been automated we end up seeing backlash. Nobody likes talking to the automated phone system, all you do is try to trick it into getting you to a real person. Where human tellers have been replaced by touch screens, you see people standing in line for the single human teller instead. Large scale automation of jobs is a long way off, 50 years or more. That doesn't mean I am against universal income plans or other ways to anticipate this shift in job type, it's just that I think we are pretty naive as far as what the realities of this shift will truly be.
IMO, we haven't actually been automating jobs for 140 years. Inventing technology that makes a job easier is not the same as automating. It does eliminate some jobs but not on the same scale as true automation. The car industry is a great example, that has been almost entirely automated and has destroyed the job market for cars in this country. Whatever a machine can't make they give to slave laborers in China to make. Sure the final steps are done by humans, but we have had entire town economies obliterated by automation for decades.
And as far as the "waiting in line for the human teller," that is mostly boomers too techno-terrified to trust a machine with their money. In 20 years they will almost all be dead. I'm not saying that automation is an imminent threat, but it's getting there. I honestly cannot imagine having a child on purpose in this world. Even if humanity won't go extinct, we are due for a heavy culling very soon
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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christopera
Stranger


Registered: 10/13/17
Posts: 14,201
Last seen: 1 hour, 28 minutes
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: bloodsheen]
#26420612 - 01/07/20 09:12 AM (4 years, 22 days ago) |
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The Model T, first released in 1908, used machine automated shapers (type of machine tool) to cut their blocks. The shapers would machine five engine blocks at a time, simultaneously. Human interaction was required, but that one machine replaced guys who would have otherwise stood at individual shapers. The steam powered cotton gin became common in the late 1800's, and it sent the south into an industrial revolution. This doesn't even scratch the surface of how automated manufacturing has been in use for more than a century. Lights out screw machine factories have been operated for a century, two or three guys can set 10's of machines up then go home. They come in the next day to pallets full of parts that are then weighed and shipped. Screw machines are mechanical, no computer control. They remain in widespread use today.
I get that there is all this talk about automation, and most people see it as machines that are smart enough to perform tasks on their own, but even at the highest levels (robot welders for example), machines are not as automated as you believe. The vast majority of CNC machines use g-code for their control method, g-code was invented at MIT in the 1950's. Machine learning and AI not even remotely close to breaking into large scale manufacturing of any kind. You can return back to the self driving car example. Humans drive cars around with LIDAR and GPS systems, these systems map the roads. That data is then loaded into a self driving car. The self driving car then uses a vastly reduced number of sensors to correlate itself to the data sets in their system. Using this they can interpolate a driving path. They aren't generating data and then adjusting to it in any truly autonomous way with exception of using radar to monitor stoppages or blockages ahead. Think of it as they are just fancy trains, but instead of a physical track, they are guided by a virtual track. Either way, it does not compare to a humans ability to make decisions or be autonomous (or make mistakes). Will it replace jobs? Yes, but it's going to create jobs in that people are still going to have to troubleshoot and maintain them, refuel them, build them. Just the same as the cotton gin or CNC machinofacture, job roles will changes, but there's little evidence to support an instantaneous mass loss of jobs as a result.
For example, truck drivers are more in demand than they have ever been. Yet we believe we are on the precipice of replacing all Truck drivers with autonomous trucks. No we are not. It will take 20 years to replace the human driven fleet with autonomous trucks (based on annual sales of trucks), and that's just the long haul delivery market. It doesn't include local delivery, where having a person on board to unload the truck is a necessity like 95% of the time. But there isn't a single self driving truck being used daily for long or short haul, not even one. There's plenty of testing going on, but when do we start the clock on that 20 years turn over? It could be a while.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
Edited by christopera (01/07/20 09:13 AM)
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 13 days
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Re: People complaining about the "PC Police" are just as annoying as them [Re: christopera]
#26422044 - 01/07/20 09:42 PM (4 years, 22 days ago) |
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Ok I can't disagree with any of that. I didn't realize people thought there was a chance of it being an overnight kind of thing. Obviously it will take decades, but in the scale of human existence even 50 years a drop in the bucket.
It's this kind of short-term thinking that got us in the messes we are in today. 'Somebody will figure it out, it wont be that bad, things will get better.' Now our planet is trying to kill us and the middle class is getting stomped the fuck out. Short term solutions to permanent problems have failed time and time again. We've known since the 60s that we were destroying the planet and what progress have we made?
It will be the same with AI. People in year 2100 will have a few thousand super elite and everyone else will be in essentially a ghetto. There will be terrorist attacks on automated factories and the people who make the attacks will look back at 2020 and say "They saw what was coming and they did it anyway."
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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