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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike
    #26415315 - 01/03/20 10:51 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

This topic deserves its own thread.

US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike
Quote:

The Defense Department said it killed Soleimani because he “was actively developing plans to attack American diplomats and service members in Iraq and throughout the region.” It also accused Soleimani of approving the attacks on the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad earlier this week.

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei warned that a “harsh retaliation is waiting” for the U.S.




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26415320 - 01/03/20 10:55 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Hundreds of Thousands of Iranians Flood Streets to Condemn US Assassination of Qassem Soleimani
Quote:

Hundreds of thousands of Iranians flooded the streets of Tehran and other cities across the country Friday to condemn the U.S. assassination of military leader Qassem Soleimani, discrediting Secretary of State Mike Pompeo's prediction that the people of Iran would "view the American action last night as giving them freedom."



Oopsie.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26415326 - 01/03/20 11:00 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

The Corporate media is defending the attacks:  Corporate Media Turns to Warhawks, Including Former Bush Officials, to Beat Drums of War on Iran

While progressives are trying rein in the current administration:  Ocasio-Cortez Joins Progressive Chorus Against War With Iran


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26415498 - 01/04/20 03:51 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Not suprising, this fucker has been  our radar for quite sometime.  Soleimani has blood on his hands....just like us.

Trump has over 2000 drone strikes; guess people lose thier shit when only when certain people get iced.


Edited by SirTripAlot (01/04/20 04:00 AM)


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26415508 - 01/04/20 04:50 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

The Anarchist Era Collective is a community of anarchists from Iran and Afghanistan operating both inside and outside their countries. This statement first appeared on the Anarchist Union of Afghanistan and Iran website.

The Anarchist Era Collective’s statement on the assassination of an Iranian state terrorist:

Quote:

Qasem Soleimani has long tormented the people and we congratulate the survivors of his crimes in the Middle East, particularly Syria, Iraq and Yemen. And while we are glad for the death of this war criminal, we declare our strong opposition to the possibility of a state war (between US state terrorism and Iranian state terrorism)

Hours ago, Qasem Soleimani, one of the top military officials of the Iranian government who was responsible for the Middle East, was killed on the direct order of Donald Trump in Baghdad

Qasem Soleimani was a genocidal man that has killed thousands of men, women, and children in the conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. He lead sieges for Assad and recruited Afghan refugees in Iran, many of them children, to die in the Syrian civil war. This state assassination was carried out by the United States in the obvious interest of Donald Trump’s election and what was done has not been and will not be in the interests of the people in the Middle East

Despite much commotion and controversy made by the Islamic regime over its security and intelligence capabilities, we see that in fact this regime is not capable of maintaining its most important transnational force and Qasem Soleimani was assassinated as soon as the US decided to remove him

On the one hand, the viciousness of the criminal Islamic regime became more apparent and on the other hand, it further showed the corrupt nature of US state terrorism, which does not care about the lives of their own nor those of the people in the Middle East—otherwise these Iranian state terrorists could have been easily hunted down over the years

We reiterate that the contemporary Middle East is shaped by wars, massacres, displacement, and famine because of religious fanatics and terrorists on the one hand and the interference of international capitalists and backers (Eastern and Western Imperialism) on the other

We hope all of these religious terrorists are killed as soon as possible and these murderous state governments will be destroyed so that the people of the Middle East live again in peace and prosperity




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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 4
    #26415510 - 01/04/20 04:54 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Even if the US escalation of conflict with Iran doesn't trigger a ground war, it represents another step towards a US foreign policy that presumes a future of global civil war. We have to show what authoritarians of all stripes stand to gain from this.

First, the US escalation confirms the thesis that Trump encouraging Erdoğan to invade Syria was not a step towards US withdrawal from the region, but a reshuffling of US alliances towards more authoritarian players. The US is sending thousands more troops to the Mideast now.

Supposed "anti-imperialists" who parroted Trump's lie that he was pulling the US out of "endless wars" naïvely gave cover to his effort to abet Turkish and Russian imperial ambitions while setting the stage for him to escalate conflict with Iran.

But Trump isn't seeking a conventional war with Iran; he wants to throw US military weight around without being drawn into ground operations. He doesn't care about potential consequences for US civilians that may be targeted by Iranian proxies worldwide - he may even welcome them. Since 2001, Republicans have only benefited from policies that have polarized whole populations, resulting in the rise of ISIS, terror attacks, and civilian deaths. They count on the threat of Islamic fundamentalism to make their own authoritarianism look appealing.

No amount of brute force can hold the neoliberal order together - and Trump is not trying to maintain it. Rather, he aims to ensure that the conflicts that succeed it will play out along ethnic and national lines rather than uniting everyone against the ruling class he represents.

In this context, we have to identify every effort to turn us against each other, building solidarity across national, ethnic, and religious lines while doing everything we can to topple authoritarian governments from DC to Tehran. Against the state & capitalism!


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26415581 - 01/04/20 07:02 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)



--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26415991 - 01/04/20 12:45 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The "corporate media" is not defending the attacks.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-iran-exchange-more-threats-as-democrats-question-timing-of-strike/ar-BBYABPZ?ocid=spartandhp



That article seems to be pretty neutral - it certainly wasn't anti-war.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26416029 - 01/04/20 01:17 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Qasem Soleimani has long tormented the people and we congratulate the survivors of his crimes in the Middle East, particularly Syria, Iraq and Yemen.



So "the people" means pro-Westerners outside Iran?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Qasem Soleimani was a genocidal man that has killed thousands of men, women, and children in the conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Yemen.



So when you fight the West, you are "genocidal", but when you support the West you are what... Freedom Fighters?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
He lead sieges for Assad and recruited Afghan refugees in Iran, many of them children, to die in the Syrian civil war. This state assassination was carried out by the United States in the obvious interest of Donald Trump’s election and what was done has not been and will not be in the interests of the people in the Middle East



By "interests of the people" in the Middle East, you mean "interests of pro-Western people" in the Middle East?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
We hope all of these religious terrorists are killed as soon as possible and these murderous state governments will be destroyed so that the people of the Middle East live again in peace and prosperity



Perpetual war for peace?



I realize you didn't write what was in your first post, and I generally agree with much of what you said in your second post.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26416072 - 01/04/20 01:44 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The "corporate media" is not defending the attacks.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-iran-exchange-more-threats-as-democrats-question-timing-of-strike/ar-BBYABPZ?ocid=spartandhp



I did find a mainstream source that was clearly against this:  Tucker Carlson



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26416127 - 01/04/20 02:36 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I realize you didn't write what was in your first post, and I generally agree with much of what you said in your second post.  :thumbup:



Can I ask what exactly leads you to believe that statement was pro-Western in any sense? My interpretation was that, despite being glad to see the death of a war criminal, they know its just a power play between two state powers without the benefit of the people (ie, working class; common folk) of the ME taken into consideration. They were quite explicit:

"And while we are glad for the death of this war criminal, we declare our strong opposition to the possibility of a state war (between US state terrorism and Iranian state terrorism)"

"We reiterate that the contemporary Middle East is shaped by wars, massacres, displacement, and famine because of religious fanatics and terrorists on the one hand and the interference of international capitalists and backers (Eastern and Western Imperialism) on the other"




Personally, I also want to see your response to this passage from the second post:

First, the US escalation confirms the thesis that Trump encouraging Erdoğan to invade Syria was not a step towards US withdrawal from the region, but a reshuffling of US alliances towards more authoritarian players. The US is sending thousands more troops to the Mideast now.

Supposed "anti-imperialists" who parroted Trump's lie that he was pulling the US out of "endless wars" naïvely gave cover to his effort to abet Turkish and Russian imperial ambitions while setting the stage for him to escalate conflict with Iran.


You were one of those naïve "anti-imperialists" who celebrated Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds to Erdoğan as a move away from US imperialism in the ME - I remember the last time we got into it, you were claiming that Democrats had become the party of wa based largely off of the different responses to the withdraw from Syria. It's the same attitude you display when you discount the people in Hong Kong as CIA plants because they are concerned with the threat of Chinese imperialism.

In fact, you are still clearly displaying this attitude in your attempt to paint a group of Iranian and Afghan anarchists, who are explicitly opposed to both the Iranian and US states, as "pro-Western" because they aren't 100% focused on resisting US imperialism in the ME, and use this to discount their concerns.

Do you have any comment on this?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26416150 - 01/04/20 02:58 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I realize you didn't write what was in your first post, and I generally agree with much of what you said in your second post.  :thumbup:



Can I ask what exactly leads you to believe that statement was pro-Western in any sense?



Because Soleimani was a general in the Iranian military who fought against Western aggression and ISIS.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
My interpretation was that, despite being glad to see the death of a war criminal...



What do you mean by "war criminal"?  Someone who defends his home country???

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...they know its just a power play between two state powers without the benefit of the people (ie, working class; common folk) of the ME taken into consideration. They were quite explicit:

...we declare our strong opposition to the possibility of a state war (between US state terrorism and Iranian state terrorism)"

"We reiterate that the contemporary Middle East is shaped by wars, massacres, displacement, and famine because of religious fanatics and terrorists on the one hand and the interference of international capitalists and backers (Eastern and Western Imperialism) on the other"




I agree with that part.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, I also want to see you response to this passage from the second post:

First, the US escalation confirms the thesis that Trump encouraging Erdoğan to invade Syria was not a step towards US withdrawal from the region, but a reshuffling of US alliances towards more authoritarian players. The US is sending thousands more troops to the Mideast now.

Supposed "anti-imperialists" who parroted Trump's lie that he was pulling the US out of "endless wars" naïvely gave cover to his effort to abet Turkish and Russian imperial ambitions while setting the stage for him to escalate conflict with Iran.


You were one of those naïve "anti-imperialists" who celebrated Trump’s betrayal of the Kurds to Erdoğan as a move away from US imperialism in the ME - I remember the last time we got into it, you were claiming that Democrats had become the party of war largely based off of the different responses to the withdraw from Syria.



It would appear that Trump has finally given in to the war hawks.  Tough to know if Trump was always a war hawk, or if he realized it useless to fight the military industrial complex.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It's the same attitude you display when you discount the people in Hong Kong as CIA plants because they are concerned with the threat of Chinese imperialism?

In fact, you are still clearly displaying this attitude in your attempt to paint a group of Iranian and Afghan anarchists, who are explicitly opposed to both the Iranian and US states, as "pro-Western" because they aren't 100% focused on resisting US imperialism in the ME, and use this to discount their concerns.

Do you have any comment on this?



I never called the people in Hong Kong CIA plants; I said the CIA helps them orchestrate violent resistance.  And until you answer the question of why Soleimani is a war criminal (for fighting Western aggression and ISIS?), it appears they support a pro-Western stance by calling him a war criminal.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26416240 - 01/04/20 03:55 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

If you watch 2:20 - 3:03 of the Tucker Carlson video I just posted above, Pompeo made it clear that Soleimani was only a threat to Americans who were in the region, and not to Americans elsewhere.

Well no duh, do we not expect foreign aggression to be met with some resistance?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26416319 - 01/04/20 04:51 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
The "corporate media" is not defending the attacks.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-iran-exchange-more-threats-as-democrats-question-timing-of-strike/ar-BBYABPZ?ocid=spartandhp



That article seems to be pretty neutral - it certainly wasn't anti-war.




The article says the Democrats think Trump is doing this to help himself politically.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26416352 - 01/04/20 05:08 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

I called it "neutral" because it goes back and forth giving both sides.


The very next sentence after:

"Democrats also pressed questions about the attack’s timing and whether it was meant to deflect attention from the president’s  expected impeachment trial  this month in the Senate. They said he risked suspicion that he was taking action overseas to distract from his political troubles at home"

was:

"But Mr. Trump, speaking to reporters in a hastily arranged appearance at Mar-a-Lago, his Florida resort, asserted that Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, who directed Iranian paramilitary forces throughout the Middle East, “was plotting imminent and sinister attacks on American diplomats and military personnel, but we caught him in the act and terminated him.”


So I meant it was neutral in that no matter which side you support, it also showed the opposite side's opinion.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26416387 - 01/04/20 05:34 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:


So I meant it was neutral in that no matter which side you support, it also showed the opposite side's opinion.





As a news article should (present quotes from both sides), and should be (neutral). 

Yes?


Edited by relic (01/04/20 05:40 PM)


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: relic]
    #26416499 - 01/04/20 06:39 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Yes.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26416529 - 01/04/20 06:59 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Trump has 52 targets in Iran we will hit if they retaliate for our killing their military leader. 52 were chosen because that is the number of American hostages held by Iran in 79-81.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26416588 - 01/04/20 07:47 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Yes, Soleimani was a general in the Iranian military who fought against Western aggression and ISIS but he was also a general in the Iranian army who fought for Iranian imperial interests in the region. Being pro-Western is not the only reason one might have opposed Soleimani. The statement itself goes on to list some specific reasons: "[Soleimani] has killed thousands of men, women, and children in the conflicts in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. He lead sieges for Assad and recruited Afghan refugees in Iran, many of them children, to die in the Syrian civil war".

War criminal is a loaded term and I'm not too interested in defending their use of that word specifically, but do you really think "someone who defends his home country" is a more fair depiction of Soleimani? He was a member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps; and whereas the Iranian Army defends the nations borders and maintains internal order, according to the Iranian constitution the IRGC is intended to protect the country's Islamic republic political system. Furthermore, the IRGC division he commanded was primarily responsible for extraterritorial military and clandestine operations. Suppression of political dissent within and advancement of Iranian imperialism abroad is a better description of his activities.

I'm really not sure why you have so much apparent difficulty in seeing any sort of nuance in these situations. Someone (like Soleimani) can fight against Western aggression and ISIS, while still pushing their own brand of aggression on the region too.

I mean seriously, take a step back and consider this: you read a statement from self-identified anarchists which explicitly mentions opposition to both "US state terrorism" and "Western Imperialism" and your first thought was to accuse them of being pro-Western because they are glad an Iranian military leader who has fueled a lot of nasty conflicts and killed a lot of people, directly or indirectly, is now dead. That's what you did right now. You ignored the explicit statements to the contrary and claimed "it appears they support a pro-Western stance" because they didn't only criticize Western Imperialism in the ME.


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Re: US kills Iran’s most powerful general in Baghdad airstrike [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #26416645 - 01/04/20 08:33 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Iran will retaliate that's 100% certainty


--------------------
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