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karri0n
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61] 2
#27507362 - 10/17/21 12:26 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nektar61 said:
Interesting.
Do any mushroom species have that?
Could it lead to Serotonin Syndrome?
Psilohuasca is already coined, you don't get to make three new terms
Regarding serotonin syndrome,
When you are prescribed pharmaceutical MAOI(which are usually non-reversible MAOI-AB inhibitors), you are told to avoid Tyramine containing foods. You cannot produce any MAO A or B for approximately 2 weeks after stopping a irreversible MAOI, as they produce covalent bonds with the MAO enzymes, and the cell produces new MAO about every 2 weeks.
Harmala alkaloids are reversible and selective for MAO-A. They only last for about 8 hours, and you still have MAOB and are able to metabolize Tyramine. It's still generally recommended to avoid Tyramine containing foods out of an abundance of caution.
Serotonin is metabolized by MAOA. This means that yes, a harmala alkaloids can increase your risk for serotonin syndrome if combined with something that raises serotonin levels in serum. While psilocinbinds to Serotonin receptors, I have not found any evidence that it actually causes an increase in serotonin levels themselves.(at least not during the trip. The after affects are another ballgame and it's looking more and more like this has to do with the gut biome and the mushrooms' long lasting affects on it). If you were on any *other* serotonin affecting drugs, then you would need to worry about interactions and the potential for serotonin syndrome.
There is a special diet sometimes prescribed before doing Ayahuasca. I don't believe it really has to do with Tyramine, but it is what the native shamans were "told" to diet by the plant medicine. Some studies I think showed that there was an increase in tryptophan containing foods, which is a precursor for us to produce neurotransmitters.
Mao inhibitors should always be used with care, and when you are increasing dosage, if including an MAOI, you only increase your psilocybin, not the MAOI dose. You also would use about half your typical psilocybin dose, and expect the trip to last 6 hours instead of 4.
Here is a quote from the study talking about the Harmala alkaloids found in the mushrooms. They list p. Mexicana, p. Cubensis, p. Cyanescens, and p. Semilanceata.
Quote:
Some science guys man idk said: We analyzed acidic aqueous extracts of other Psilocybe species by HPLC and fluorescence detection (Figure 1 C) to investigate if β‐carbolines were present in those fungi as well. Compound 4 and, in lower quantities, 5 were found (t R=2.98 and 3.16 min) in carpophores of P. cyanescens, P. semilanceata, and of two P. cubensis isolates, as well as in P. mexicana (both sclerotia and mycelium), and in P. cubensis mycelium. In addition to the above‐mentioned β‐carbolines, we detected norharmane (6, t R=2.85 min, Figure 1) and perlolyrine (7, t R=3.49 min), and identified them by their masses (m/z=169.0763 and 265.0974 [M+H]+) and by comparison with synthetic standards. The latter compound is known as a plant alkaloid from Codonopsis pilosula (Campanulaceae, bellflower family).12 Overall, the β‐carboline pattern was quantitatively and qualitatively inhomogeneous among species, yet indicated that their occurrence is i) more widespread within the genus Psilocybe and ii) independent of the developmental stage. For final evidence that Psilocybe fungi contain β‐carbolines, we purified the two major compounds from P. cubensis carpophores. Subsequent 1D and 2D NMR spectroscopy resulted in spectra (Figures S1–S10, Table S1, Supporting Information) that were identical to reported data for 4 and 5.13
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003923/
This is really off in the weeds though, and off topic. I can bring it back around to natalensis by saying this though:
It looks like all we need to do to test for the presence of harmala alkaloids is make a water extract of the fruits/mycelium and see if it fluoresces under black light. The intensity of fluorescence indicates the concentration of harmane and harmaline.
I think actually several of us DO have that particular tech.... Heh.
I'd test it myself but I do not have nat mycelium.
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Panaeolus Bisporus
Edited by karri0n (10/17/21 12:34 AM)
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nektar61
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: karri0n]
#27507417 - 10/17/21 02:06 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
karri0n said: Psilohuasca is already coined, you don't get to make three new terms
OK.
So what I do I have?: --Plins (plate pins) --Peens (it's been used, but I specifically use it for something larger than a pin and smaller than a full grown fruit.
Was there another? I forget.
Quote:
karri0n said: It looks like all we need to do to test for the presence of harmala alkaloids is make a water extract of the fruits/mycelium and see if it fluoresces under black light. The intensity of fluorescence indicates the concentration of harmane and harmaline.
I think actually several of us DO have that particular tech.... Heh.
I'd test it myself but I do not have nat mycelium.
I have some, but not enough to destroy it with a water extraction.
My non-extract tests were inconclusive.
I used a shortwave UV light I have for testing flouresence in rocks. That's the kind that will wreck your eyes without the glases, that's what you mean, right? not the cheapo long-wave UV black light flashlight types?
Left is A+ cube, Right is P-Nat.

Illuminated with lids off in the dark, neither really glow. If any glows more, it's the A+, but probably the angle I had the light at.
both pictures are the same thing, posting both because they look very slightly different, but not anything I'd call fluorescing:

I'd really like to know, I don't want to take harmane or harmaline if I can help it.
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Edited by nektar61 (10/17/21 03:59 AM)
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A.k.a
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61]
#27507557 - 10/17/21 07:31 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wait so if you make tea and it glows in the blacklight that’s a positive on harmala alkaloids??
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karri0n
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a] 2
#27507623 - 10/17/21 08:31 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't want to take harmane or harmaline
Well, that's the thing, if you're eating mushrooms, you're getting harmala alkaloids. They tested the coprophores - aka stems of basically all the common psilocybe and found them.
It's a trace dose compared to eating a bunch of Syrian rue or b.caapi as far as I understand, but personally have noticed a significant difference in effects(more sedation and likelihood to lay down and have closed eye trips To "other places") if my mushrooms are covered in fuzzy feet most of the way up the stipe vs no fuzz.
Quote:
Wait so if you make tea and it glows in the blacklight that’s a positive on harmala alkaloids??
Let me re-read the study and make sure that's all they did, but I think I'm reading that correctly.
I think they used mass spectrometry to identify what caused the fluorescence first, then Tested the rest just using the fluorescence test.
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Failboat
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: karri0n]
#27507723 - 10/17/21 09:54 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Artemisia_Ale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: karri0n] 1
#27508044 - 10/17/21 02:33 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Would dried, aged mycelium work for this test?? Ive got about 2 oz of natal overlay saved up. Also have a good UV and blacklight for this. Wait would an LC work too?
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Failboat
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Try it out and let us know if you got the tools, right?
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Jacubey
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Failboat] 2
#27508139 - 10/17/21 03:47 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Once mine grow in I'll run some in a soxhlet for a day and see what comes out. Should help produce a high enough concentration to clearly floresce
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nektar61
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a]
#27508249 - 10/17/21 05:29 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Wait so if you make tea and it glows in the blacklight that’s a positive on harmala alkaloids??
This test would be more accurate if these 3 criteria are met:
--The test should use cubes grown under the same conditions as a control group. (If we're saying they have far less than P-Nat). Other things fluoresce, possibly things people would use in a shroom grow. Does gypsum fluoresce, for instance? It might.
(Does psilocin fluoresce? I've read that LSD in quantity does, maybe other indole substances do?)
--The UV light should be filtered shortwave UV. (not a cheapo "black light." (and you must wear protective glasses to use shortwave UV, and make sure there are no pets, people, in the room).
If anyone knows that harmala alkaloids glow under black light, let us know. I'm sure someone here owns some of a harmala alkaloid and a black light. lol.
My shortwave UV light is filtered, but not well. If it's filtered I'd see almost nothing in the dark. Filtering removes visible light.
The slight glow in my pix above is from slight visible light that mine doesn't filter out....I saw that with my eyes, as well as with the camera. (Some cameras may also pick up UV light, mine doesn't seem to.)
You want the only glow to be alkaloids turning UV light to visible light, not the slight visible light that the UV light also produces.
--Also, make sure to not do the test through any plastic or glass, that could filter out the UV and/or some of the visible fluorescence, or can itself fluoresce. (Maybe part of the slight glow in my photos is the plastic Petri dish fluorescing a little).
Even with all this, with things that flourese (like rocks that flourese) they GLOW under my light.
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Edited by nektar61 (10/17/21 05:40 PM)
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Failboat
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61] 1
#27508256 - 10/17/21 05:38 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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LSD sure does glow, but it's wasteful to do so.
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nektar61
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Failboat]
#27508268 - 10/17/21 05:45 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: LSD sure does glow, but it's wasteful to do so.
Oh, because it degrades it?
Didn't the 60s mega-chemists use UV light and seperatory column to separate the D- from the L- ? (then convert the L to D?)
I read one place, a long time ago, and never heard this again: some 60s mega chemist released some levorotatory LSD as "Hell Violet" (color of the stripe in the column, the D was more blue, I think), was supposedly a little different from the dextrorotatory ("real LSD"?)
also read that lesser current chemists don't bother separating, and that a lot of street acid (the stuff that actually IS acid) may be a mix of both D and L.
I think L was supposed to be like half as potent, but also different, mellower, more _____ (fill in the blank).
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Failboat
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61] 1
#27508276 - 10/17/21 05:53 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Eh too deep for this thread.
I gotta melt some agar and take Nat transfers before it gets harder to clean.
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Artemisia_Ale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61] 1
#27508327 - 10/17/21 06:45 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh DUH, thank you for suggesting this! I just bought a gram of extracted harmine earlier this week. Also Im not sure if this's a filtered short-wave UV, but it's not the kind that goes on the wall. It's for detecting... fluids n stuff, and it does say "Do not shine directly at eyes or bare skin". I'll do all of this tomorrow, it's a bit busy this evening... We'll do a vile of harmine hcl in water (and some of the powder directly) and a vile of extracted p. natalensis mycelium under the light. And maybe a control of Dwarf GT fruit bodies. How much weight/water should I use to keep it somewhat equal amounts in each? I was going to use about 100mg of the harmine HCL for ..other experiments.. soon, so I could just dissolve that in some water. (Maybe 10ml?) But how much mycelium and fruit bodies to use to get a fair test?
Also the compounds may only be produced at certain times and under specific conditions (I know this is the case with alot of alkaloid production in the flora-kingdom).
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Artemisia_Ale
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HOLY SHIT the harmine glows!

Thats a ~25mg line there.
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Artemisia_Ale
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The rest of the 1g jar:

Edit: Sorry about that, I could've done those posts all in one go. That's just a cheap blacklight too... I'm going to have to dig through stuff to find the good one.
Edited by Artemisia_Ale (10/17/21 06:58 PM)
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Jacubey
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Natalensis myc is so pretty

I haven't been able to find anything about glowing psilocin/psilocybin, so it's probably safe to say we don't have to worry about that component fudging the test results.
Edited by Jacubey (10/17/21 08:08 PM)
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nektar61
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Jacubey]
#27508541 - 10/17/21 10:00 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jacubey said: Natalensis myc is so pretty
Yours looks like crystals forming.
My avatar right now is P-Nat. I can't wait to see this stuff devour some sub.
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karri0n
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61]
#27508566 - 10/17/21 11:02 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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I re-read it and verified they are using an acidic aqueous solution - so, tea with vitamin c most likely. I also spotted this bit - the harmane and harmine are at concentrations 100x higher in the mycelium than in the fruits of Cubensis.
Quote:
Although mycelia showed a concentration of 21 μg g−1 Harmane in dried biomass, we found a 100 fold lower concentration in the carpophores (0.2 μg g−1).
Sclerotia of P. mexicana contained 1.4 μg g−1 Harmane and 1.6 μg g−1 Harmine
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Panaeolus Bisporus
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nektar61
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: karri0n]
#27508593 - 10/17/21 11:57 PM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
karri0n said: I re-read it and verified they are using an acidic aqueous solution - so, tea with vitamin c most likely. I also spotted this bit - the harmane and harmine are at concentrations 100x higher in the mycelium than in the fruits of Cubensis.
Quote:
Although mycelia showed a concentration of 21 μg g−1 Harmane in dried biomass, we found a 100 fold lower concentration in the carpophores (0.2 μg g−1).
Sclerotia of P. mexicana contained 1.4 μg g−1 Harmane and 1.6 μg g−1 Harmine
Thank you, karri0n.
So I'm trying to figure out if anyone here thinks P-Nat is counterindicated for anyone on things that react badly with MAOIs? I want to avoid that. I'm not on MAOIs, but I like things that are counterindicated: chocolate, cheese, kratom.
Shit, coffee has some Harmane, right?
The above is in fractions of micrograms per gram, not milligrams, so ok, right? Is your above quote about P-Nat, or P-Cub? Those amounts are tiny, I think. The amount of harmine for pharmahuasca is 200mg or so, right?
I don't want Serotonin Syndrome. Sounds horrible. One big reason I won't take a big dose (many milligrams) of harma alkaloids for any reason. But if they exist in P-Nat in doses larger than in Cubes, in tiny doses that accentuate the experience but aren't dangerous, I'm ok with that.
I don't want to do drugs that involve having to not eat certain things before and after, when cubes agree with me well, without having to alter my day otherwise.
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IchorPetrichor
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: nektar61]
#27508739 - 10/18/21 07:53 AM (2 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey guys. Spore to agar. Which part should i T1? was thinking 3-4 o clock. or should i got for more fuzzy part? The thing is touching the top of plate already and not even halway through the plate. I know the picture is shitty. first agars were bought and had insane condensation.
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