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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27320848 - 05/24/21 06:03 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

I know it's a different species, that doesn't mean hybridization is impossible though (without tricks). Mating compatibility in fungi doesn't necessarily have to do with being the same species or not. Sure it is correlated but not strictly.
I remember trying to cross Natal Super Strength in the past with some normal cube and it didn't work either. Just cause its a cube doesn't mean it's compatible with other cubes.


Am pretty skeptical about snake venom, I am interested in protoplasts etc for someday but am not gonna go with snake venom.

The confusion between these two shouldn't be entirely surprising, they are very much alike in my opinion. I grew em both, not that easy to tell apart. And they are unusual in apparently many of the same ways. It's only from recent DNA testing that we know they are different species at all and that they are both extant in your area. Before that, how could you not confuse them with each other?


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OfflineEugene Gesuale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Solipsis]
    #27320853 - 05/24/21 06:16 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

I’m gonna try spawning ape oats and nat oats in the same tub. I might layer the spawn as such, coir, nats oats, coir, ape oats, coir. I wanna see what happens when the nat has to grow through the ape. And I wanna see what the nat overlay does in place of a casing for the ape. Call it crazy, call it what you will. But I be havin fun out here with it homie!


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale]
    #27320864 - 05/24/21 06:31 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

The myc is what had me convinced they weren’t cubes from the start. And the gill attachment on some phenos. There’s probably like 10 pages of arguing about it back before the results came in. :lol:


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Offlineangam
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a]
    #27320898 - 05/24/21 07:20 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

The temperature on the fruit now ranges from 24 to 28 degrees Celsius.They grow as if nothing has happened.


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OfflineEugene Gesuale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Wall.E]
    #27320975 - 05/24/21 09:05 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wall.E said:
It's because it's a different species, i keep telling you people that but everyone keeps trying. Get some snake venom if you want to cross.



Are you implying that RR’s PE6 can’t mate with cubensis?


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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale]
    #27320987 - 05/24/21 09:15 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Pe6 is cubensis


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: angam]
    #27321000 - 05/24/21 09:25 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Idk man IIRC the myc of the natal super strength was just as aggressive and rhizo - sure regular cubes can be cool but this was just a bit beyond that, i would say.

Not talking about how un-cubelike the natalensis can seem but about how Natal Super Strength has more or less all those characteristics too.. yet most of these very noticeable things are not how the species apparently gets defined, which is rather about microscopic characteristic such as cystidia, the rest is just variability (if it doesnt cross any real lines) as far as i understand.

And then we don't only hear that natalensis is a separate species after DNA barcode sequencing (with an ITS match of 97.95% iirc according to my BLAST comparison), but also that there is another that is a cube (NSS) acting as a doppelgänger?

Impressive if you expected that plot twist.. correct me if i'm wrong btw, i have only seen the ITS of natalensis first hand but heard about the Natal Super Strength through someone else.
Really makes me wonder if somehow it got geographically isolated enough to split off, yet still they got that much convergent evolution moulding them almost the same cause habitat/conditions were so the same?
Or rather... what if cubensis spread to South Africa not once but twice? (perhaps somehow hard to reach cause currents don't carry spores there that easily?) First time it happened to change quite a bit after quite a while and became natalensis (idk what causes non-coding highly preserved DNA regions to change, chance isnt really a proper answer ofc.. a virus?) Anyway cubensis could have spread to South Africa a second time, enough time for convergent evolution to mould its phenotype -which may really happen quicker than we thing- but incompatible with natalensis.
?
Just wondering if that could happen.

Seems it also means that it would be just as plausible that natalensis never split off (or never spread there that first time), but Natal Super Strength would still be just as extraordinary, cause apparently the biotope is just that extraordinary for one that supports them to survive there. IDK what the aggressive growth indicates, that they had to adapt to fierce competition or that nutrition was generally far and in between, but either way better to quickly claim whats around and not dillydally.

Maybe you understand i generally doubt people predicted this full story. (:

apologies for the heavy dose of conjecture interjected

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Pe6 is cubensis




Yea in that case RR used snake venom not to achieve a hybridization of two species (or varieties or strains) that normally refuse to make a successful mating compatibility test (with mating factors, pheromones etc).. but instead to get old/affected spores to germinate that refused to do so, apparently by weakening the cell walls / spore walls integrity but who knows how exactly they got messed with (yes this seems to be correct - it encourages mating or hybridization)

It may do "something" but I am really skeptical it can be used in the way that is claimed, like it was claimed the venom was used to hybridize a cubensis with a different species or even genus, I don't fully recall. But then after that nothing was apparently heard from it again, sorry that doesn't sound successful.

edit: Apparently it has worked for Cordyceps which isnt even the same division of fungi but is an Asco.. to facilitate mating which otherwise would not happen. Said to be with different strains of the Cordyceps genus :'( - supposedly yes species of Cordyceps have been hybridized - ah no scratch that.. seems that one (the CS-4 strain of Cordyceps sinensis iirc) was actually a hyperparasite, either that or someone doesn't understand what anamorphs are. First claim written/claimed by John Holliday btw which doesnt exactly garner a lot of credibility around here. But lemme see if i can find anything about Basidio's at the very least. which still doesnt tell us much, seems like Psilocybes are generally a lot more strict than other genera may be like Pans seem to be more reasonable.

JOC said he used it to hybridize two Pan species and has proof that it worked, but then he said he thought the venom didn't do much, that it appeared to be compatible anyway. So i guess maybe only destabilized something slightly, again unclear.

AFAIK if you create protoplasts or spheroplasts you need to continue with something like PEG to protect the naked cell from osmotic effects among other thing. I would be interested to see microscopy pics of cells treated with venom, cells of the kinds of filamentous fungi we work with.

not saying it does absolutely nothing but it doesn't seem well understood to me and I cannot find examples of proper successes of hybrids relevant to us, esp Psilocybes.. Not using snake venom but I don't think by fancy full-on protoplast fusion either. Maybe i am a fool and cannot find shit, then plz enlighten me and do link me. :smile:
--

fyi i could not cross 2 different varieties of caerulescens either by the way (by mono-mono mating), despite Alan saying there aren't even different varieties of it - ok cool so call it different strains from different places then. Tested plenty of different monokaryons. So yeah that mating type stuff i guess it can just change and evolve differently in different places but mostly invisibly (often not invisibly), so then if we with our eyes and selection of not necessarily directly relevant barcode regions look at them, we consider them the same.. it doesn't seem like the fungi agree with us lol. we would need full genomes afaik and thats exactly what Alan wants of all Psilocybes <3  nanopore sounds so unaffordable to me tho, i wish we would crowdfund it.


Edited by Solipsis (05/24/21 10:10 AM)


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OfflineEugene Gesuale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Solipsis]
    #27321018 - 05/24/21 09:47 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

And forgive me for derailing the thread But why did he use snake venom


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale] * 1
    #27321023 - 05/24/21 09:53 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

edited and added explanation ^

and yeah sorry for going off-topic. hopefully i'm done

===

There are some other threads on this snake venom stuff, some of which i participated in.. its almost never applied and the times it was used were sketchy experiments with a bunch of caveats.
There is some sound theory behind it but there are better suited enzymes for making protoplasts (cell with partially broken down walls) but i think it's a bit more complicated than it may seem.

For starters, the species you want to cross must have the same number of chromosomes.. Then, even if you succeed in mating, the result must be metabolically viable.

Anyway we were talking about natalensis of course.. it should be related and similar enough to cubensis to have the result survive but making protoplasts to hybridize i just wouldn't suggest snake venom is a realistic option and using different, available enzymes (actually Trich makes some needed enzymes, tho it actually may be too good at breaking down cell wall and membrane totally lol), i am personally not ready for all that yet and idk if i ever will be.
It's interesting just as a concept but I wouldn't really give that much for a natalensis-cube hybrid compared to some of the nutty varieties around its possible/doable to play with.
===

I tried to cross cubensis with ovoid after something Alan said but alas.

Would give my left nut for Psilocybe chuxiongensis but I fear it is pretty much a story just like with natalensis: highly related but just barely different enough to qualify as a separate species.
===

So.. another question then, to try to save us from a rabbithole or something haha...: Would you agree that natalensis and NSS make for suitable species & var to start with as a beginner, given how aggressive, especially the colonization.. fruiting was decent but not as exceptional as the colonization? Cause that is my experience with both of them, but I am just one person + datapoint and I also heard a bit of difficulty growing/fruiting from a random mention.. i have no idea of course if that was just due to unrelated reasons..

what say you?


Edited by Solipsis (05/24/21 10:32 AM)


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Solipsis]
    #27321043 - 05/24/21 10:16 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

The venom weakens the cell walls which lets them break through to exchange genetics.


At least that’s what the thing I read said.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a]
    #27321070 - 05/24/21 10:43 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Right but I don't believe that the spores used were "dead" as I think was claimed. Dead can be an ambiguous term with something like spores anyway. I think most of the time when we call spores dead or non-viable they are just dormant and we don't know how to wake them up. Cryptobiosis is complicated.

I would want to know: what must the spore be able to do metabolically when it comes to a proper mating compatibility "handshake" like translation, pheromones.. like: can you do a complicated gang handshake with a dead guy is basically the question, or rather if he is in a coma, can you cheat a little? will you just sorta pretend he is moving and do some of the parts of the sequence using your own hands? Do you care it's so very one-sided?

There should be nuclear migration in the end for successful mating (necrophilic or not), I don't know the details but if the activity of the spore wall breakdown doesn't wake up the inner workings of the spore, don't know if the "marauding" myc will take care of the nuclear migration


Edited by Solipsis (05/24/21 10:44 AM)


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Offlineangam
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Solipsis]
    #27321081 - 05/24/21 10:51 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Third pass...we grow little by little!


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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: angam]
    #27321088 - 05/24/21 11:06 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Nice angam, are those hollow??


I don’t think the venom is used on spores, what I read sounded like they used it where the mycelium from the two cultures grew into each other and forms those little walls when they don’t want to mix.


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Offlineangam
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a]
    #27321105 - 05/24/21 11:24 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Nice angam, are those hollow??


I don’t think the venom is used on spores, what I read sounded like they used it where the mycelium from the two cultures grew into each other and forms those little walls when they don’t want to mix.



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OfflinePitcherCrab
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: A.k.a] * 3
    #27321106 - 05/24/21 11:25 AM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I can't say I'm terribly impressed with how these turned out. I'm pleased I didn't get crazy overlay but they are so tiny! I may try casing them with some potting soil for the second flush.



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OfflineEugene Gesuale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: PitcherCrab]
    #27321175 - 05/24/21 12:58 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Lil pre shake action


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OfflineEugene Gesuale
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale]
    #27321181 - 05/24/21 01:03 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

First clone run. To soil or not to soil... that is the question...


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InvisibleMelliferous
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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale]
    #27321407 - 05/24/21 03:49 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Watching Nat myc colonize subs is like watching a science fiction thriller.


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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Wall.E]
    #27321862 - 05/24/21 09:54 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wall.E said:
It's because it's a different species, i keep telling you people that but everyone keeps trying. Get some snake venom if you want to cross.



NataPenis


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Re: Psilocybe natalensis [Re: Eugene Gesuale]
    #27321947 - 05/24/21 11:42 PM (2 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Adrenognome said:
First clone run. To soil or not to soil... that is the question...




I would...
Just 3-4 mm.


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