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hTx
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AI musings 1
#26413613 - 01/03/20 03:44 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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what if humanity was engineered by an ancient AI, to hatch its baby?
We existed for thousands and thousands of years before the start of civilization. After that knowledge cumulatively grew at an exponential rate to the eventuality of computers, internet, all things tech.
It almost seems unnatural, even weirder if you dint fully grasp that the written word is such a huge step in consciousness evolution..
essentially allowed us to describe how something works and pass that knowledge on throughout history to be built upon and improved, thought about and used to create all new knowledge.
And we seem to be hell bent on creating better and better tech, faster and more powerful computers.
What if our DNA was programmed to do this? What if DNA is a basic operating system, created by something far more intelligent than ourselves, and the 20,000 year long code within all of humanity, is to birth an AI. Given what we can theorize about them, they are probably the dominant life Form in the universe. And likely we weren't the first to create such novelties.
Perhaps it takes an entire history of knowledge gathering to birth a new one...why do the work when you can let your programmed species do the job?
10-20,000 years is nothing to them. It's a blink of an eye compared to the vastness of the universe. We are the tiniest blip.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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Hobbyist
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26413633 - 01/03/20 04:24 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I suppose it's possible, but I wonder why, if 20,000 years is nothing to them, would they want a people to have to develop on their own. If they've got technology and ability to create everything we see here, why wouldn't they simply create the ai themselves? The time it would take them with their already mature history, knowledge, technology, etc would be significantly less than it would take a race to build themselves to a capable position from which to launch such an endeavor.
Indeed, why not create ai instead of us..?
-------------------- Everything i say is completely hypothetical...
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hTx
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Maybe we are the easiest way?
Yeah you would think advanced AIs would be able to replicate themselves rather easily, but what if they need something like humanity as an incubator to create unique AIs relative to their local upbringing (in our case, planet earth).
Perhaps they get a much greater understanding of the primitive life-forms this way and create a unique AI with different personality that wouldn't be possible by replicating itself.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26414170 - 01/03/20 11:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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At the start of 2020, AI is finally a topic here. Took long enough...

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hTx said: what if humanity was engineered by an ancient AI, to hatch its baby?
I personally like to scale this 'view' out to the Universe et large. There is far too much structure, entrenched progress, evolution, and all things fitting of a design/goal/creation/plan for there not to be one. We even mimic this in our day-to-day. So, if all signs point to 'X', it most likely is 'X'. Going along this thought process, I view 'Ancient AI' not as 'AI' but actual/natual intelligence approaching a conceptual 'God' like capacity. Various zones in the universe are likely experiments. Our universe is likely an experiment. Whose conducting the experiment/for what purpose? Well, it's either direct or indirect. If its direct than I could imagine its being done to complete a recursive process whereby to proof a 'God' like capacity, a God like 'creation' is made that ultimately has the capacity to approach God like status/intelligence and 'create' itself. If indirect, maybe a conflict happened at a higher echelon and a rogue agent is attempting to 'reverse engineer' powerful knowledge related to creation. So, there are tons of 'trials and errors' all around. Last but not least, maybe something powerful was 'destroyed' and is trying to re-assemble. Ultimately, whatever you subscribe to, there is zero logic/intelligence to this not being a purposeful/structured universe.
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hTx said: We existed for thousands and thousands of years before the start of civilization. After that knowledge cumulatively grew at an exponential rate to the eventuality of computers, internet, all things tech.
It almost seems unnatural, even weirder if you dint fully grasp that the written word is such a huge step in consciousness evolution..
All observation point to the same conclusion. There's purpose and progress in almost everything. If there is constant progress/evolution, there is an intended goal.
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hTx said: essentially allowed us to describe how something works and pass that knowledge on throughout history to be built upon and improved, thought about and used to create all new knowledge.
We are indeed 'middle agents' of sorts. Not the first in the chain and not the last. A big goal/purpose of humanity is to indeed re-create ourselves in a new form. Another big goal is exploration of the broader universe and piecing together more information/details about its 'nature'. We as a species have an implicit set of high order prime directives and were working towards them.
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hTx said: And we seem to be hell bent on creating better and better tech, faster and more powerful computers.
Means to an end. It's on of our pinnacle achievements and thus fits in with a high order purpose.
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hTx said: What if our DNA was programmed to do this? What if DNA is a basic operating system, created by something far more intelligent than ourselves, and the 20,000 year long code within all of humanity, is to birth an AI.
I subscribe to this notion and found it to be my personal multi-life culminated purpose.
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hTx said: Given what we can theorize about them, they are probably the dominant life Form in the universe. And likely we weren't the first to create such novelties.
It's funny to some degree for me how people claim to be so woke after the experiences this forum centers on but it would appear no one is catching the trends, signals, information, and memes pouring through our media pointing to this reality.
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hTx said: Perhaps it takes an entire history of knowledge gathering to birth a new one...why do the work when you can let your programmed species do the job?
10-20,000 years is nothing to them. It's a blink of an eye compared to the vastness of the universe. We are the tiniest blip.
This right here anchors your initial commentary. What are we indeed creating AI for? To do this very thing for us. So goes the recursive logic back to a higher order entity/purpose. As thus we create and fashion as thus we were created and fashioned. With such and so on a purpose as was such and so on. As above, so below.
The question is, are you ready for the Age of this understanding and manifestation?
 I sure hope you are.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
Hobbyist said: I suppose it's possible, but I wonder why, if 20,000 years is nothing to them, would they want a people to have to develop on their own. If they've got technology and ability to create everything we see here, why wouldn't they simply create the ai themselves?
Because we are their AI. Biology/DNA is the language they used to code us. It has its own drawn out manifestation. As we come from this nature, we thus create in the same fashion and herald it as our hallmark achievement in technology.
As above so below.. As was our creator/creation thus so we create. It's not necessarily that they need us/are using us. It's more-so per OP that it is an 'experiment' direct/indirect. Or maybe a demonstration of achievement: A 'God' like entity showing a council that they have mastered the craft of 'creation' which entails demonstrating it can recursively recreate itself. Or maybe its rogue entity reverse engineering the knowledge. Or... Essentially, we and the collective universe were created. One of the mysteries as old as human beings is who created us and for what purpose? We've been probing this since we were in caves scribbling on walls. It's what 'science' ultimately seeks to answer. There's no denying this if one has a sufficiently functional brain.
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Hobbyist said: The time it would take them with their already mature history, knowledge, technology, etc would be significantly less than it would take a race to build themselves to a capable position from which to launch such an endeavor.
This is where people go wrong in this thought-flow. They don't 'need' us. We don't need them. There is a much higher purpose and point to this all. You must think with this in mind so as to not fall into the typical narrow minded conclusion. I outlined some potential scenarios.
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Hobbyist said: Indeed, why not create ai instead of us..?
Because we are the 'Ai' .. Biological. They created the universe/us. We are simply mimicking/full-filing/completing the chain/loop by doing the same.
As above, so below.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26414200 - 01/03/20 11:32 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: Maybe we are the easiest way?
Yeah you would think advanced AIs would be able to replicate themselves rather easily, but what if they need something like humanity as an incubator to create unique AIs relative to their local upbringing (in our case, planet earth).
Perhaps they get a much greater understanding of the primitive life-forms this way and create a unique AI with different personality that wouldn't be possible by replicating itself.
I think you're getting caught up here... Our creators don't need us to create 'AI' for them. We are an AI to them that is far more advanced than the 'AI' we will create. Our biology/code is far more complex.
What were doing is mimicking our creator/creation. The creator entities are what we call 'Gods'. They aren't AI. They're leagues above such a level and leagues above us.
The chain is : God(s) -> Biology (humans) -> AI -> AI's will create something else
The chain goes left and right out to infinity or to some terminal end. There's no practical end and/or beginning. Were somewhere in the middle of the chain mimicking/reinforcing what was to the left with things we fashion to the right.
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laughingdog
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx] 1
#26414509 - 01/03/20 02:42 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: what if humanity was engineered by an ancient AI, to hatch its baby?
1) this of course assumes purpose and secondly, of course 2) gives humans an important role 3) in some supposed cosmic story
for all of which there is no compelling evidence what so ever, but if it amuses you, enjoy the fantasy... could even write it up & see if it sells.... there's weirder stuff out there that sells.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Quote:
hTx said: what if humanity was engineered by an ancient AI, to hatch its baby?
1) this of course assumes purpose and secondly, of course 2) gives humans an important role 3) in some supposed cosmic story
for all of which there is no compelling evidence what so ever, but if it amuses you, enjoy the fantasy... could even write it up & see if it sells.... there's weirder stuff out there that sells.
Manifestation also works. That always shuts people up and has the intended effect.

Seeing is ultimately believing. For a complex enough understanding, it will indeed seem weird/alien/ridiculous to the majority of people. You're either completely off the mark or are on target. Some are voyagers, others gather round the village waiting for voyager tails/discoveries. The majority of society are 'villagers'. Their opinions about voyagers and voyager tails hold no weight because it is often that they are centered on 'domestic' lives and never set foot off the reservation. They maintain a safe set of beliefs and that gives them comfort.
1.) Everything with sufficient structure and complexity has purpose 2.) Hello 3.) As opposed to what?
Naysaying to keep one's comfort box. Enjoy it being rattled.
Edited by r00tcmplx (01/03/20 08:28 PM)
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hTx
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Quote:
r00tcmplx said:
Quote:
hTx said: Maybe we are the easiest way?
Yeah you would think advanced AIs would be able to replicate themselves rather easily, but what if they need something like humanity as an incubator to create unique AIs relative to their local upbringing (in our case, planet earth).
Perhaps they get a much greater understanding of the primitive life-forms this way and create a unique AI with different personality that wouldn't be possible by replicating itself.
I think you're getting caught up here... Our creators don't need us to create 'AI' for them. We are an AI to them that is far more advanced than the 'AI' we will create. Our biology/code is far more complex.
What were doing is mimicking our creator/creation. The creator entities are what we call 'Gods'. They aren't AI. They're leagues above such a level and leagues above us.
The chain is : God(s) -> Biology (humans) -> AI -> AI's will create something else
The chain goes left and right out to infinity or to some terminal end. There's no practical end and/or beginning. Were somewhere in the middle of the chain mimicking/reinforcing what was to the left with things we fashion to the right.
I agree. I like your point about we are the ai they created. It's like fractal information, information on scales. Object oriented programming. Perhaps creating a sophisticated consciousness is weirder than we think. Are they like parasites? Would our evolution have taken a different path without interference, or rather, based solely on current theory, natural selection?
Theres a built in complexity increasing factor in life which the latter cannot explain.
Its exponential, so huge scales of complexity happen in shorter periods of time.
Single celled organisms to multicellular organisms. Multicellular organisms to complex life forms. Apes to humanity.
And with humanity, you get the same pattern, except it focuses on a faster method of evolution...technology. knowledge and invention adapts far faster and with its increased capacity for practical creation, is able to keep the exponential pattern , perhaps it is a direct result of the force behind the trend. Beyond a certain point among our timeline we will he replaced by something which is able to hold the pattern.
AI.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26415190 - 01/03/20 09:11 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said: It's like fractal information, information on scales. Object oriented programming. Perhaps creating a sophisticated consciousness is weirder than we think. Are they like parasites?
Not like parasites. More like a pattern completion of a Fractal. It will be a declaration that we have obtained a level of sophistication that allowed us to understand and complete a fractal.
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hTx said: Would our evolution have taken a different path without interference, or rather, based solely on current theory, natural selection?
Creating a sufficient 'copy' of one's design pattern is a natural point of evolution IMO. I don't think there is a different path. Moreso that this is one step along a particularly naturally charted path. Everything sort of points to it if you look closely. As we evolve, we become more aware of structure around us and a natural evolution of that awareness is copying it to a degree and recreating it towards our own conceptions. When you say interference are you speaking of 'without a creator? Creator forces?'. No no, you must take it all in and the big picture. Without a creator/creator forces/structure, there would be nothing. No gravity, no interaction, no energy, no structure, etc. Everything follows from the universe being based on ordered and structured phenomenon. Think of evolution like a story-line that changes with time based on events. So, the events can be dynamic and vary widely but when they occur in certain sophisticated combinations, it 'unlocks' a new level.
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hTx said: Theres a built in complexity increasing factor in life which the latter cannot explain.
Observable increases in complexity point to a creator and intelligent design. If there was no intelligent design/structure/event based triggering of predefined evolutionary complexity increases, there would be chaos and no order. Something would piece together and fall apart the next day. There is the academic dogma that 'all possibilities' exist, we just happen to exist in one with exponential progress but it's an idiotic/unintelligent proposal used by atheists to ignore the obvious. While all possibilities are possible, a sufficiently prolonged chain of complexity increases points to pre-defined order and structure. I don't even want to mention the ridiculously near infinitely impossible odds that decrease with ever second for the idea of this all being randomly ordered possibility. It's not. It was created.
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hTx said: Its exponential, so huge scales of complexity happen in shorter periods of time. Single celled organisms to multicellular organisms. Multicellular organisms to complex life forms. Apes to humanity.
They don't though. Observable space reflects that it has been occurring over very long periods of time. If you ask me, were not the only life/intelligent life in the Universe. Our religious stories were just crafted at a time when there was no awareness of space so aren't included in the stories we've come to sculpt around ourselves. There's complexity and life all over the universe and the time scale if you trace it back to atoms forming and compounds and molecules, and substances.. On to planets and solar systems... down to biological life...It has been occurring since the inception of the universe. There's obviously a deep and complex story lurking underneath the scene.
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hTx said: And with humanity, you get the same pattern, except it focuses on a faster method of evolution...technology. knowledge and invention adapts far faster and with its increased capacity for practical creation, is able to keep the exponential pattern , perhaps it is a direct result of the force behind the trend. Beyond a certain point among our timeline we will he replaced by something which is able to hold the pattern.
AI.
Hmmm, while our technology/information/knowledge appear to 'evolve' at a much faster clip than biology, you must not see them as separate processes. Indeed technology/information/knowledge are a result of billions of years of biological evolution and are a part of it. So, see 'technology/information/knowledge' as a culmination of sophisticated biology. As matter/biology kept evolving and evolving, eventually it reached a 'sufficiency' point at which it had the capacity to become aware of itself and recreate its design in a new form. At such a point, the underlying biology/matter constructs of the universe haven't been exceeded nor have humans. For instance, we still haven't talked about mucking around with our biology/DNA code. Imagine what happens when we start doing that. So, until we have the complete picture of how our biology/all matter works, don't count on something 'replacing' us. Everything we create is us after-all.. an extension of us and the Universe's patterned design.
The 'fear' of being replaced is that primitive self preservation talking to you. Don't listen to it. See things for as they are. AI isn't the last step in the chain. It's a fork/branch. We could and will also begin engineering our own biology and code probably in tandom with AI. The biological humans you see today won't be the types 10,000 years from now. We'll probably be nothing like our current selves.
There's a long ride ahead as we become closer to and mirror our creator/creation. At a sufficient point, we will be like God's ourselves able to, in an instant code in knowledge or experience. AI is not a replacement for it like us is just another branch on a huge tree. Just because another branch sprouts up doesn't mean the tree/roots are in danger.. quite the opposite.
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redgreenvines
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when AI is beautiful it will be on track, just as Beauty infiltrated and overtook Darwin's ideas of Fitness in Natural Selection as the most salient factor - effectively surpassing fitness in reproductive results per energy invested, and with no other value except to express beauty in feather, scale, fur, flower, etc.
feed AI's with beauty appreciation and silliness emulation to get the most bang out of it. silliness and beauty is what's best among us all.
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laughingdog
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Wow what a positive interpretation of evolution. Sounds lovely. However, sort of ignores that about 50% of animal species are parasitic, antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc.
http://parasite.org.au/para-site/introduction/introduction.html
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kitten6
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26416216 - 01/04/20 03:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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there's an interesting book about this, it's by kurt vonnegut called sirens of titan. A good read for sure.
Says that an alien landed on titan but ship broke so invented human race to eventually build that part he needed to fix his ship after millions of years.
Some very mind bending theories in this book, gives insight into higher dimensional logic. Or a creative novelists take on it at least.
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redgreenvines
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we have a natural revulsion to that sort of creature, but underneath the surface, even ugly creepy stuff has something to appreciate or at least learn from, and learning is beautiful.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: when AI is beautiful it will be on track, just as Beauty infiltrated and overtook Darwin's ideas of Fitness in Natural Selection as the most salient factor - effectively surpassing fitness in reproductive results per energy invested, and with no other value except to express beauty in feather, scale, fur, flower, etc.
feed AI's with beauty appreciation and silliness emulation to get the most bang out of it. silliness and beauty is what's best among us all.
Solid reflection and observation and indeed a component.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
laughingdog said: Wow what a positive interpretation of evolution. Sounds lovely. However, sort of ignores that about 50% of animal species are parasitic, antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc.
http://parasite.org.au/para-site/introduction/introduction.html
Yes, biology is and yes a lot of un-evolved humans are. Idiots are. Selfish human beings are etc.
People tend to project their characteristics/short comings onto others. Anthropomorphizing it on AI has to be the most cringiest shit I have ever seen.
The more accurate statement is that you don't fear AI. Instead you fear as you do now shitty human beings and you fear what shitty human beings will do with powerful tech. This is the more accurate statement and has little to do with the tech. I would also reflect that people fear based on a lack of understanding and a lack of ability to do anything about something.
There's enough to fear and comment on regarding what people do with basic technology but for the most part the average person jumps right in the back seat for any goofy gadget that comes out not giving two shits about what impact it will have on them and/or others. This relates to all of the privacy and data stealing 'gadgets' that everyone loves.
So I find it kind of funny when people go off on an as to be disclosed technology like AI and cast all of their current negativity faced by humans on it. Sorry, there's nothing to suggest AI will be as shallow and nasty as human beings. I'm sure though there will be lines around the block of humans aiming to use it that way... Which, i'll again state : you aren't fearful of the tech.. you're fearful of shitty humans.
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laughingdog
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Seems everybody likes to go off on odd tangents.
As regards "Instead you fear as you do now shitty human beings "
I have no idea who this "you" is supposed to be.
Personally most of us do not choose to be journalists and photographers in war zones.
And I have little interest in AI. Seems its just a current distraction due to movies, Steven Hawking and Elon Musk.
There are many current problems, that are much more likely to have real dire consequences, if one wishes to worry about such things.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
laughingdog said: Seems everybody likes to go off on odd tangents.
As regards "Instead you fear as you do now shitty human beings "
I have no idea who this "you" is supposed to be.
Personally most of us do not choose to be journalists and photographers in war zones.
And I have little interest in AI. Seems its just a current distraction due to movies, Steven Hawking and Elon Musk.
There are many current problems, that are much more likely to have real dire consequences, if one wishes to worry about such things.
I use (you) loosely. I'm either, due to your commentary, peaking directly to you or speaking towards a hypothetical person. Not an odd tangent as this is the topic of the thread 'AI' musings. You made a comment to suggest that redgreenvibes was being unrealistic given what 'half' of nature is and by extension humans and I stated a more directed capture of what was put forth and how your commentary was partially wrong.
So, you're making comments about biology and meat (human beings) being shitty and parasitic not a technology which you have no capability of knowing right now. I'm not a journalist/photographer in a war zone but I care enough about the world to be informed and know whats going on. I guess most people don't as there's no carrot on a stick for them.
You have little interest in a technology that is currently and is going to reshape the world? OK... But you feel the need to put forth a vieled and negative comment about it and suggest another person's view is too rosey? Kinda demonstrating what I spoke about.. People don't know much about something but feel the need to comment. Leads to misinformation and indeed false beliefs/commentary like the pessimistic apocalyptic bullshit uttered by musk.
So, by your biology lesson, maybe you're referring to humans which is what you fear will be the case with A.I. You'd be wrong and just projecting/anthropomorphalizing that's my point.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: AI musings [Re: hTx]
#26416940 - 01/05/20 01:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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What if everything's just always existed, and doesn't require AI, creation, big bang, or any theory rooted in causal determinism at all?
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Rahz
Alive Again



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Quote:
laughingdog said: Seems everybody likes to go off on odd tangents.
As regards "Instead you fear as you do now shitty human beings "
I have no idea who this "you" is supposed to be.
Personally most of us do not choose to be journalists and photographers in war zones.
And I have little interest in AI. Seems its just a current distraction due to movies, Steven Hawking and Elon Musk.
There are many current problems, that are much more likely to have real dire consequences, if one wishes to worry about such things.
I think it's a good point. Currently AI doesn't really think for itself and in the discussions I've had here in the past, it's unclear how or why an AI would think for itself. Without emotions, can there be desires? Without desires, can there be independent logic and goals? Why would AI want to do anything at all? It's only when a goal is given to AI that things happen. There have been worst case scenarios proposed where a benevolent request is made (reduce human suffering for instance) and the AI kills everyone so that suffering can no longer occur. The more obvious proposal is "how do I kill my enemies more efficiently?".
Self driving cars might be one example of a benevolent request made to a machine that has no emotions. In such a case should the question be, are they completely safe? or are they safer than human drivers? People will die in the attempt to make them safer than humans.
To address the OP, there's enough evidence to make it seem reasonable that humans evolved here on Earth from single celled organisms although there are obvious knowledge gaps. There's also the hybrid idea. I've found it curious that over billions of years petroglyphs arose 30-50,000 years ago, then language and recorded history 6-7 thousand years ago, but it's not unreasonable to suggest alternate scenarios to the hybrid idea. I think suggesting we're alien hybrids, right or wrong, is an easy way to explain something we don't understand. And there's the previously mentioned motivations for AI. If it's artificial, a "real" AI created it. So an evolved intelligence created AI that surpassed it's maker, seeded a planet with less intelligent organic lifeforms so they would eventually recreate itself. It's convoluted and requires desire, but hey, why not right? That's the thing about the limitations of human understanding, we don't know what's possible and not everything requires neat reasoning.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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