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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428707 - 01/11/20 07:35 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
bloodsheen said:
Quote:
sui said:
Quote:
Northerner said: I think he's referring to the water resources in Australia sui, not overall damage done to the environment by humans.
I am refering to the burning done by native Americans to the lands they left and burned to keep safe for themselves when they left.
The context is that fires on continents happen and ignoring the causes of them and blaming climate change is silly is some circumstances but not all.
Wut
maybe?:
Quote:
Native Americans' use of fire to manage vegetation in what is now the Eastern United States was more profound than previously believed, according to a Penn State researcher who determined that forest composition change in the region was caused more by land use than climate change.
"I believe Native Americans were excellent vegetation managers and we can learn a lot from them about how to best manage forests of the U.S.," said Marc Abrams, professor of forest ecology and physiology in the College of Agricultural Sciences. "Native Americans knew that to regenerate plant species that they wanted for food, and to feed game animals they relied on, they needed to burn the forest understory regularly."
Over the last 2,000 years at least, according to Abrams -- who for three decades has been studying past and present qualities of eastern U.S. forests -- frequent and widespread human-caused fire resulted in the predominance of fire-adapted tree species. And in the time since burning has been curtailed, forests are changing, with species such as oak, hickory and pine losing ground.
"The debate about whether forest composition has been largely determined by land use or climate continues, but a new study strongly suggests anthropogenic fire has been the major driver of forest change in the East," said Abrams. "That is important to know because climate change is taking on an ever larger proportion of scientific endeavor."
But this phenomenon does not apply to other regions, Abrams noted. In the western U.S., for example, climate change has been much more pronounced than in the East. That region has received much more warming and much more drought, he explained.
"Here in the East, we have had a slight increase in precipitation that has ameliorated the warming," said Abrams.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190521162443.htm
Quote:
He draws the can back and forth across the green, turning it red and then black. The lines of little flames creep along the forest floor, ebbing and growing with the contours of the land.
This fire will chew out the underbrush and lick the moss off the trees. It will blister the hazel stalks and coax strong new shoots that will be gathered and woven into baskets for babies and caps for traditional dancers, and it will tease the tan oak acorns to drop. It will burn the invasive plants that suck up the rain, letting more clean, cool water flow through the black, into the watershed and down the Klamath river for the salmon.
Soon all that black will be dotted with bear grass and huckleberries pushing up for the sunlight and down for the water they couldn’t reach when they were crowded out by tall scotch broom and dense twists of blackberries and the ever-encroaching fir trees. Even sooner, animals will flock here to roll in the ash, a California dust bath.
For more than 13,000 years, the Yurok, Karuk, Hupa, Miwok, Chumash and hundreds of other tribes across California and the world used small intentional burns to renew local food, medicinal and cultural resources, create habitat for animals, and reduce the risk of larger, more dangerous wild fires.
This is “good fire”, traditional practitioners and firefighters would say.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/21/wildfire-prescribed-burns-california-native-americans
Quote:
Using traditional techniques as a part of fire suppression could help revitalize American Indian cultures, economies, and livelihoods—and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfires, a new study suggests.
Researchers say the findings could inform plans to incorporate the cultural burning practices into forest management across an area one and a half times the size of Rhode Island.
Traditional baby baskets of Northern California’s Yurok and Karuk tribes made out of hazelnut shrub stems cost more than a new iPhone XS. They come at a premium not only because skilled weavers handcraft them, but also because the stems required to make them only grow in forest understory areas experiencing a type of controlled burn tribes once practiced but has been suppressed for more than a century.
“We must have fire in order to continue the traditions of our people,” says Margo Robbins, a Yurok basket weaver and director of the Yurok Cultural Fire Management Council who advised the researchers. “There is such a thing as good fire.”
“Burning connects many tribal members to an ancestral practice that they know has immense ecological and social benefit especially in the aftermath of industrial timber activity and ongoing economic austerity,” says lead study author Tony Marks-Block, a doctoral candidate in anthropology at Stanford University who worked with Lisa Curran, professor in environmental anthropology.
https://www.futurity.org/american-indian-culture-wildfires-2144652-2/
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 13 days
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: Tantrika]
#26428722 - 01/11/20 07:46 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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I would say it's arguable if it's "good burning." It's just burning that benefits us. But still, pretty interesting
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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Barnaby
Interesting lifetime


Registered: 12/13/17
Posts: 9,136
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: Northerner]
#26428730 - 01/11/20 07:55 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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No shit. It is on the news in the States everyday. You guys are fucked let alone all the animals. Interesting world with climate change as the years go by. I am in the perfect place.
California isn't doing to well either but nothing compared to Koala land.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428737 - 01/11/20 07:59 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
bloodsheen said: I would say it's arguable if it's "good burning." It's just burning that benefits us. But still, pretty interesting
kind of my fault for failing to quote one of the "most interesting" aspects exposed that they talk about in the first link:
Quote:
"Modern forests are dominated by tree species that are increasingly cool-adapted, shade-tolerant, drought-intolerant pyrophobes -- trees that are reduced when exposed to repeated forest burning," Abrams said. "Species such as oak are largely promoted by low-to moderate-level forest fires. Furthermore, this change in forest composition is making eastern forests more vulnerable to future fire and drought."
Quote:
After 1940, they found, fire suppression was an ecologically transformative event in all forests.
"Our analysis identifies multiple instances in which fire and vegetation changes were likely driven by shifts in human population and land use beyond those expected from climate alone," Abrams said. "After Smokey Bear came on the scene, fire was mostly shut down throughout the U.S. and we have been paying a big price for that in terms of forest change. We went from a moderate amount of fire to too much fire to near zero fire -- and we need to get back to that middle ground in terms of our vegetation management."
it is arguably "good" for the forest as well depending on if your view is that it is better to have a consistent and disaster resistant habitat or one that operates in cycles of catastrophic upheaval and regrowth
fortunately, we are equipped for the second situation as well as drone planting makes it significantly more viable to foster new growth in burned out or clear-cut areas
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bloodsheen
ChemChaplin



Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 13 days
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: Tantrika]
#26428758 - 01/11/20 08:16 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Hm. I guess with how climate change went we did kinda shoot ourselves in the foot with Smokey the Bear. On the scale of time of Earth, I don't think that creating "pyrophobe" forests was necessarily a bad thing. During times of extreme cold and extreme wet I'm sure fires plummeted to near zero, and yet within the last 500 years this planet was positively covered in trees. Smokey the Bear was an attempt to solve a problem that was not only created by us but only really negatively affected us.
So by that logic, we should allow disease to wipe out large swaths of humanity to decrease the trasmitability of future, more deadly diseases. If I'm understanding this properly, we would need to burn forests near human settlements which we consider amoral and unacceptable, much like allowing disease to do what it was meant to do.
Native Americans didn't generally give a fuck about other tribes. They would have no problem burning one location and then moving there after it began to recover, regardless of who was living there at the time. Not to mention the thousands of animals they displaced and killed with the fires.
--------------------
A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: Tantrika] 1
#26428768 - 01/11/20 08:21 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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It was used an integral part of the lands management by the indigenous people here.
Usually mapped out over generations they would strategically burn parts of their area.
This was for regeneration, safety, and immediate food purposes.
As we unpick these issues nationally post the immediate crisis I am hoping that we heed their advice for once.
Unfortunately with the conditions no being so volatile environmentally I fear that it may be too little to late.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Tantrika
Miss Ann Thrope




Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: bloodsheen]
#26428777 - 01/11/20 08:32 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
bloodsheen said:... So by that logic, we should allow disease to wipe out large swaths of humanity to decrease the trasmitability of future, more deadly diseases. ...
actually, using fire to promote the growth of fire-resistant plant life would be more like injecting portions of the human population with diseases to prevent more deadly outbreaks of disease
but suppose when it is put like that, it sounds pretty crazy compared to just letting disease naturally take its course
Quote:
bloodsheen said:... If I'm understanding this properly, we would need to burn forests near human settlements which we consider amoral and unacceptable, much like allowing disease to do what it was meant to do. ...
We already manage areas as parkland, it is just a different form of management
Quote:
bloodsheen said: ... Native Americans didn't generally give a fuck about other tribes. They would have no problem burning one location and then moving there after it began to recover, regardless of who was living there at the time. Not to mention the thousands of animals they displaced and killed with the fires.
this seems more in line with sentiments informing modern approaches to sustainable pastures and crops
Quote:
Canadian farmers are cultivating some sustainable farming techniques that the United Nations' latest climate change report identified as particularly useful for an industry it concluded must make drastic changes to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a report last week warning that global food supplies are at risk from climate change and land degradation.
One major conclusion was that the agricultural sector needs to rethink traditional practices, including producing less meat and more plants — which require less room to grow and produce fewer emissions — otherwise Canada will not be spared from the global impacts of food shortages and price shocks if temperatures continue to rise.
Along with setting out the potentially dire consequences of inaction, the report also outlined some of the techniques that could both reduce emissions and reverse the trend.
One of the most decisively helpful options was to increase the organic content in soil, by using the land to capture carbon — a practice an increasing number of Canadian farmers employ using a variety of techniques.
Crop farmers have been working to capture carbon, which helps not just on the climate front but also for the sustainability and resilience of the soil, said David Burton, a professor in Dalhousie University's department of plant, food and environmental sciences.
"It's a rare example of one of the mitigation options that has really, really big positive advantages beyond greenhouse gas mitigation."
Decades of intensity farming have started to push down the organic matter in soil that helps keep it healthy and fertile and prevents erosion, he noted.
"We're realizing we can't just push this thing to the max all the time, we're going to have to start thinking about the condition of the soil."
A key technique for farmers is to no longer till the soil, so the organic matter isn't disturbed and can properly break down.
"That's how soil organic matter forms, by leaving it alone," said Burton.
No-tillage seeding has grown significantly in the past two decades, from use in less than seven per cent of cropland in 1991 to 56 per cent in 2011.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/sustainable-farming-canada-un-report-1.5243184
Quote:
Payne is one of a number of small-scale "regenerative farmers" who believe that raising grass-fed cattle can actually help reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
"We use animals here as tools on the land to capture the carbon and store it in the ground," Payne said.
Carbon capture, as it's called, involves keeping plant life healthy so it can pull carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and into the soil, trapping it underground.
Her cows graze on grass in a large field by the side of a road in Greely, in the south end of Ottawa.
Every morning and evening she moves them along to a new spot to let the grazed ground regenerate, promoting the growth of plants. She said that helps fight climate change.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/red-meat-local-farmer-ottawa-1.5244343
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Crazy_Horse
I’m Rick James, bitch!


Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 13,283
Loc: Hampsterdam
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: pineninja]
#26428781 - 01/11/20 08:36 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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the dingo ate my baby
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 14 minutes, 31 seconds
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That really happened and now it’s joke.
She spent years in prison, then the first thing she did when pardoned was to watch Seinfeld cause she heard it was a good show
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 14 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: koods]
#26428787 - 01/11/20 08:41 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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I got chased by a dingo

I still managed to drive on the left side of the road, with the gear stick and steering wheel on the wrong side and take a picture.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
Edited by koods (01/11/20 08:44 PM)
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: koods]
#26428795 - 01/11/20 08:47 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Shut up koods.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 14 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428806 - 01/11/20 08:57 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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What? That’s an actual dingo chasing me after we saw him coming and got in the car in the Northern Territory.
We had pulled over so I could take this picture
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: Tantrika]
#26428831 - 01/11/20 09:28 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Frontline documentary of the camp fire. Super intense
People burned down to their skeletons by wildfire. “This lady had to put her makeup on. She died because of it.”
Quote:
koods said: Are kangaroos in Australia like deer on the Esst coast of the US? Like when you pull into your driveway do you have a dozen kangaroo stare at you for a minute before they panic and scatter?
Do kangaroos get into subway stations?
Do you have city kangaroos that look both ways before crossing the street?
Quote:
Tantrika said:
Quote:
bloodsheen said:
Quote:
sui said:
Quote:
Northerner said: I think he's referring to the water resources in Australia sui, not overall damage done to the environment by humans.
I am refering to the burning done by native Americans to the lands they left and burned to keep safe for themselves when they left.
The context is that fires on continents happen and ignoring the causes of them and blaming climate change is silly is some circumstances but not all.
Wut
maybe?:
Quote:
Native Americans' use of fire to manage vegetation in what is now the Eastern United States was more profound than previously believed, according to a Penn State researcher who determined that forest composition change in the region was caused more by land use than climate change.
"I believe Native Americans were excellent vegetation managers and we can learn a lot from them about how to best manage forests of the U.S.," said Marc Abrams, professor of forest ecology and physiology in the College of Agricultural Sciences. "Native Americans knew that to regenerate plant species that they wanted for food, and to feed game animals they relied on, they needed to burn the forest understory regularly."
Over the last 2,000 years at least, according to Abrams -- who for three decades has been studying past and present qualities of eastern U.S. forests -- frequent and widespread human-caused fire resulted in the predominance of fire-adapted tree species. And in the time since burning has been curtailed, forests are changing, with species such as oak, hickory and pine losing ground.
"The debate about whether forest composition has been largely determined by land use or climate continues, but a new study strongly suggests anthropogenic fire has been the major driver of forest change in the East," said Abrams. "That is important to know because climate change is taking on an ever larger proportion of scientific endeavor."
But this phenomenon does not apply to other regions, Abrams noted. In the western U.S., for example, climate change has been much more pronounced than in the East. That region has received much more warming and much more drought, he explained.
"Here in the East, we have had a slight increase in precipitation that has ameliorated the warming," said Abrams.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190521162443.htm
Quote:
He draws the can back and forth across the green, turning it red and then black. The lines of little flames creep along the forest floor, ebbing and growing with the contours of the land.
This fire will chew out the underbrush and lick the moss off the trees. It will blister the hazel stalks and coax strong new shoots that will be gathered and woven into baskets for babies and caps for traditional dancers, and it will tease the tan oak acorns to drop. It will burn the invasive plants that suck up the rain, letting more clean, cool water flow through the black, into the watershed and down the Klamath river for the salmon.
Soon all that black will be dotted with bear grass and huckleberries pushing up for the sunlight and down for the water they couldn’t reach when they were crowded out by tall scotch broom and dense twists of blackberries and the ever-encroaching fir trees. Even sooner, animals will flock here to roll in the ash, a California dust bath.
For more than 13,000 years, the Yurok, Karuk, Hupa, Miwok, Chumash and hundreds of other tribes across California and the world used small intentional burns to renew local food, medicinal and cultural resources, create habitat for animals, and reduce the risk of larger, more dangerous wild fires.
This is “good fire”, traditional practitioners and firefighters would say.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/21/wildfire-prescribed-burns-california-native-americans
Quote:
Using traditional techniques as a part of fire suppression could help revitalize American Indian cultures, economies, and livelihoods—and reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfires, a new study suggests.
Researchers say the findings could inform plans to incorporate the cultural burning practices into forest management across an area one and a half times the size of Rhode Island.
Traditional baby baskets of Northern California’s Yurok and Karuk tribes made out of hazelnut shrub stems cost more than a new iPhone XS. They come at a premium not only because skilled weavers handcraft them, but also because the stems required to make them only grow in forest understory areas experiencing a type of controlled burn tribes once practiced but has been suppressed for more than a century.
“We must have fire in order to continue the traditions of our people,” says Margo Robbins, a Yurok basket weaver and director of the Yurok Cultural Fire Management Council who advised the researchers. “There is such a thing as good fire.”
“Burning connects many tribal members to an ancestral practice that they know has immense ecological and social benefit especially in the aftermath of industrial timber activity and ongoing economic austerity,” says lead study author Tony Marks-Block, a doctoral candidate in anthropology at Stanford University who worked with Lisa Curran, professor in environmental anthropology.
https://www.futurity.org/american-indian-culture-wildfires-2144652-2/
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,049
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 14 minutes, 31 seconds
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428835 - 01/11/20 09:30 PM (4 years, 18 days ago) |
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Ok
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: koods]
#26428839 - 01/11/20 09:32 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Have you people in Australia looked at the previous decades fire patterns to compare to?!
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428844 - 01/11/20 09:36 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Have you people the states ever thought that you dont have a monopoly on intelligence .
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: pineninja]
#26428845 - 01/11/20 09:37 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Who thought that?! This is good fucking information and if you can't see it that is your fucking problem.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428847 - 01/11/20 09:39 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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When the 2017 fire started I learned the fire patterns of that area for a hundred fucking years.
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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sui
I love you.



Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,853
Loc: Cali, Contra Costa Co.
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428850 - 01/11/20 09:42 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Semantic Scholar › pdfs › ...PDF Web results the history and ecology of fire in california's ... - Semantic Scholar
-------------------- "There is never a wrong note, bend it." Jimi Hendrix
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pineninja
Dream Weaver



Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: Australia is burning. [Re: sui]
#26428851 - 01/11/20 09:43 PM (4 years, 17 days ago) |
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Jesus dude.
Comparison is an overwhelmingly common part of the current conversation.
Grats to you for seeking out information...how advanced.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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