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PrimalSoup
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Grain hydration test & grow log (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) DONE 2
#26411562 - 01/01/20 09:13 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Starting this from a POTD discussion if anybody's interested...
12-27-19

These test rye jars were prepped with my standard overnight soak, then rinse (all in jar), then add gypsum water to supplement. I've though for a while the new standard of +20cc (left jar) was leaving them on the dry side even though that was all calculated out for 55% total water content. So I thought, well, let the myc tell me what it likes.
They went G2G 4 days ago with PE, left to right is +20, +30, +40, +50, +60 and +70 cc added water, PCd 1 hr at 20PSI. I used to use around +50 and you can see already that the sweet spot for growth is somewhere in the middle, around that, the +20 and +70 are faring equally slowly, but for different reasons. These are rotated to show the best sides.
I'll shake them all now and see which one wins for full colonization. This PE is not terribly aggressive BTW but it's what I have so far. 
1-1-20
Quote:
SpikeSpiegel said:
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: Hydration comparison, +20, +50, +70 cc to grain soak prep. No doubt about the new champ!

What's this?
My grain was turning out too dry so I ran some comparison trials with different amounts of water added after 24-hour soak-and-rinse. Figured the myc would give me the answer and it did, even though the +20 was weighed and calculated out to be exactly 55% water. Turns out I used to use +55 consistently until I lowered it down for reasons unrecalled...
tl;dr field capacity determination 
Quote:
Cronicr said: Bacteria leads to bacterial problems
No that's not what its about. Too much moisture is just as bad as not enough.
Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said:
Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said:
Even tho it’s running slower I still would opt for the 20%. Over hydration often leads to bacterial problems. It will still run but your yield will be diminished. This is definitely pronounced with pans. Is you over hydrate your growth will appear thicker and more “healthy” however the dryer spawn with thinner wispy myc will vastly out preform thicker growth on moister spawn. I feel the same is true with cube spawn but to a lesser extent and optimal cube myc should look thicker than optimal pan myc but still don’t want marshmallows or any residual moister on glass after a shake. Also spawn that is further hydrated clumps more and is more difficult to break up.
Bacteria leads to bacterial problems
Well sure but the first thing I notice if my spawn is to wet is bacteria problems, dry my spawn out more next run and it clears right up. It’s much more noticeable with pans but it just happens to me I ran a few even tho the myc was thicker & the spawn wetter than I like to see and the result was sparsely populated trays. Ran dryer spawn the next batch and I’m back to canopies. Idk if I can recall ever seeing a becterial issue on dry spawn.
OK now that's interesting.
My yield would be down with these first jars at +20 if I hadn't spritzed a ton of water onto the grain when casing, and I still had to hydrate the sub quite a bit, and it still didn't really keep up with the pinset.
What I'm going on is the appearance after time went by, which wasn't what I wanted, after shaking. Here's the +20 and +50 with the donor jar in the center (donor 10 day recovery, others 5 day recovery from first shaking, 10 days after G2G)

And here's +20, +50, +70 after shaking. I didn't quite clear the bottom of the +70, but of the three, all smelled perfect and the +50 was dead-on perfect, based on experience. So not seeing what's not to like... I should note the jars run in a heated cupboard with a thermostat control in my cold house, because they can. So you'll always see some condensation until they get shaken.

I'll post how the jars recover, and then follow them through to fruiting (separate containers) so it'll be sciency like and all that. 
What I do get and want to point out is that if the drier grain was going to bulk the hydration wouldn't matter much as the FC of the bulk dwarfs any lack in the grain, and the innoc points are the same. This was to test pure grain fruiting. Down the road when I've got the strains isolated for bulk I might test this out for drier grain.
1-2-20
Here's the +50 jars cooked last night. This is what I'm aiming for.

Recovery day 1:

1-3-20
Recovery day 2:

1-4-20
Recovery day 3:

And here's all the jars:

One thing you can see pretty easily in the increased volume in the jars with more water (taller in the jars).
Next I'll be casing these all out for fruiting compare. 
1-7-20
Recovery day 6:
Oops, did not get to casing these yet. But looking at them today I'm struck by the extra growth shown by the +50 vs the +20, so here's another pic:

1-12-20
Casing day 2
OK, update - cased the 6 jars out last night and now we wait for pinning. It'll be some amount of time from 10-30 days as this particular PE strain hasn't gone through fruiting yet. I noticed in shaking them up that the +50 jar again smelled the best. I'm holding to the basic idea that organism growth is basic in all this so I'm betting the best performer comes from the midrange with the strongest growth pattern. They were all laid out and cased without adding any water, the casing was ordinary peat mix at good field capacity.
Here's an exciting pic to pass the time:


1-31-20
OK, so about 3 weeks (20 days) from casing out the grain and they've been in the FC for at least 2 weeks, exposed to FAE for at most a week, and pinning has commenced. Left to right, back to front, +20, +30, +40, +60, +70 cc.

The +50 jar had a spot of mold at the bottom and it wouldn't consolidate so it's toast. I took some grains from the top of it to agar and they look fine, I also used it for G2G without shaking but that didn't work out:

I hope the grain samples fare better as they're going onto fresh grain jars today. If not I'll clone one of the fruits in order to hang onto the strain. I think this variety (6) is overall the most vigorous yet so I have some good expectations.
Of the 5 remaining +40 is showing the best pinning behavior - which may be some data at last!

Now the new wait begins - blobs or fruits?
2-3-20
And the winner is...both, as usual so far. 
This is the +70 tray. They all are doing pretty much the same thing but the more water they got the further along they are, which makes sense.

2-8-20
Here's a closeup from a couple days ago:

And onto to where they are now - well, no clear pattern due to hydration amount. All have been misted a list so any initial advantage may be lost. Will be looking at harvest weight to differentiate - but since I lost one tray and the results are inconsistent I think there's either (a) a lot of variation in this strain or (b) contamination to varying degrees. Since the G2G from the +50 jar died with mold I'm guessing the latter. If I propagate this strain it'll be from a clone at this point.
Oh yeah the pic:

That's +20, +30, +40 in the far row and +60, +70 in the bottom row, l-r.
2-10-20
A couple more days and these are gonna get harvested tonight. I think +30 (center on top) was a good call. 
I'll have the fresh weights later on. Will clone Mr. Massive in +70 because...well...big. And then from that rerun the same experiment.

And here ya go:

+20 43g, +30 93g, +40 71g, +60 56g, +70 79g, total a fairly minuscule 342 g fresh weight. My more-like-isolates in the other thread were doing better then these, like this:

Still I'm gonna clone the big one from +70 as there may be some contams at work and it's a nice sample to try the same experiment with as well.
The interesting part was that the more water added, the higher quality were the fruits, and the easier they were to pick as well. So there is value in full hydration at least if you're fruiting off of grain. I doubt it matters at all for bulk.
2-24-20
Second flush, such as it is:

I did clone the big one from +70 but I'm not going to do any more work with this strain most likely. I found what I was looking for about hydration. I have a much more promising PE swab project going.
So I'm calling it done and thanks for going along for the ride. 
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Edited by PrimalSoup (02/24/20 04:37 PM)
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verum subsequentis
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26411573 - 01/01/20 09:22 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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cronicr



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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: verum subsequentis]
#26411596 - 01/01/20 09:47 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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I know too much moisture can be bad but it doesn't lead to bacteria
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: cronicr]
#26411603 - 01/01/20 09:53 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Yes I totally agree with you.
I did a half-pint jar grain hydration test years ago to get the standard I used. But I'm kinda curious as how getting the grain just right affects fruiting behavior, something I've never followed through start to finish. Besides I'm a bit bored right now in the middle of isolation trials but without much time to spend tripping.
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26411608 - 01/01/20 09:58 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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There is certainly a happy medium I prefer for grain prep but I have never went beyond colonization performance myself.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: cronicr]
#26411624 - 01/01/20 10:17 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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I like having those cheery looking jars. It also helps to get more gypsum in the jars.
Also since I go by smell after shaking to judge myc I wasn't getting my happy dose of good myc smell recently and it was bugging me. Besides, growth is growth, and faster growth shortens the fruiting cycle which with PE is already really long. If the moisture content affects speed to fruiting I want to know about that.
I'll case these out without adding any water to see what happens.
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: cronicr]
#26411762 - 01/02/20 01:30 AM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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I had knocked some jars of oats a couple of months ago with a MS syringe just for giggles and I had no visible growth in 15 days. My grains were too dry so I said let's do a test. I seem to always manage to get a couple of 10cc syringes with water in my PC cycle (aluminum foiled upright) so I shot 5cc of sterile water into a jar that was a heavy 2/3 full , shook it up and in a few days there was growth going.
Lesson I learned is that it's equally important for moisture to be outside as well as inside.
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: cronicr]
#26412441 - 01/02/20 12:22 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said: 55% total water content.
are you talking 55% total water, including natural moisture content, or 55% added water by weight?
Quote:
cronicr said: I know too much moisture can be bad but it doesn't lead to bacteria
They had said "Over hydration often leads to bacterial problems." I did not take this to mean that adding too much water somehow makes bacteria grow or survive. Rather I take it to mean that if you have bacteria in your grow then too much moisture might exacerbate it.
Like if somebody had a fairly wet and fairly dry jar of grain and said they knew the MS syringe they had contained bacteria then which jar would your money be on to get the higher yield. Or if they were to do a G2G to either jar with known slightly bacterial grain.
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: blackout]
#26412447 - 01/02/20 12:24 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: TeaforTwo]
#26412600 - 01/02/20 02:00 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Love this thread. I noc rye and wheat berries in gallon bags with about 30cc of LI.
I'm having success with bringing berries to 47% (with natural water content considered) then drying off 1%. I do this with a heat gun blowing into the bag of freshly drained grains. 30 seconds.
In the past my LI took forever to leap when I dried more. Put your grains out on a window screen and you can easily remove 4% of water, making the outside of the grains too dry for LI... maybe G2G would be fine.
Word on the street is bags like the grains drier. I've learned that is on the inside of the kernel. Careful to not over dry the exterior.
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: tedoro]
#26412605 - 01/02/20 02:03 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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cronicr



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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: blackout]
#26412617 - 01/02/20 02:09 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: 55% total water content.
are you talking 55% total water, including natural moisture content, or 55% added water by weight?
Quote:
cronicr said: I know too much moisture can be bad but it doesn't lead to bacteria
They had said "Over hydration often leads to bacterial problems." I did not take this to mean that adding too much water somehow makes bacteria grow or survive. Rather I take it to mean that if you have bacteria in your grow then too much moisture might exacerbate it.
Like if somebody had a fairly wet and fairly dry jar of grain and said they knew the MS syringe they had contained bacteria then which jar would your money be on to get the higher yield. Or if they were to do a G2G to either jar with known slightly bacterial grain.
It's an oxymoron like saying you only want it slightly contaminated lol
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: blackout]
#26412664 - 01/02/20 02:29 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: 55% total water content.
are you talking 55% total water, including natural moisture content, or 55% added water by weight?
It was 55% total water - measure sample grain, dehydrate in oven overnight, figure difference (about 6-7% usually), work from there to get 55% after soaking. That figure is from TMC as part of a range, IIRC 50-60%. But like I said this didn't seem to be working well and it was so long since I'd done it I did an experiment to get the right amount for what I'm growing. 
Quote:
blackout said:
Quote:
cronicr said: I know too much moisture can be bad but it doesn't lead to bacteria
They had said "Over hydration often leads to bacterial problems." I did not take this to mean that adding too much water somehow makes bacteria grow or survive. Rather I take it to mean that if you have bacteria in your grow then too much moisture might exacerbate it.
Like if somebody had a fairly wet and fairly dry jar of grain and said they knew the MS syringe they had contained bacteria then which jar would your money be on to get the higher yield. Or if they were to do a G2G to either jar with known slightly bacterial grain.
And I agree that too much water + bacteria = more bacteria. But the idea in growing is to not have bacteria in the first place, either from the spawn or from the grain prep, right?
I don't think I'd put money on any ratio when you've got bacteria. IME it just hitches along until conditions are optimal (think bulk sub) and then it fucks you up. Seen that plenty of times, not seeing it now.
So in general I know there's lots of grain prep methods out there and I've done it different ways over the years. But I like it to be simple and soaking measured amounts in hot water 24 hr, then rinsing in the jar, draining, and adding the difference needed before PCing 1 hr at 20 PSI works for me. :awesomnod:
Of course they need shaking after being taken out hot...
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26412730 - 01/02/20 03:03 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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1-2-20
Here's the +50 jars cooked last night. This is what I'm aiming for.

Recovery day 1:
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
Edited by PrimalSoup (01/02/20 08:44 PM)
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: PrimalSoup] 2
#26412893 - 01/02/20 04:35 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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Lol just saw this, lol So yes bacteria does cause bacteria problems however that doesn’t mean there are not Waze you can adjust your prep to diminish the likelihood of these problems or reducing a bacteria favorable environment. If you were to make 10 jars and over hydrate the grain to Mush it’s likely all 10 will go bacterial. There will be yellow slime around your grain and up against the glass clearly not what you want. I don’t care how clean you are about it if the grain is too wet you’re going to get bacterial problems I’ve had my clean room dialed in so well I have not even got a contamination on a dish in weeks . As you back off your moisture You will start to get jars that give you marshmallow growth you can still bulk it, but the smell will be slightly off and your results diminished. Once you get to the proper hydration your chances of losing jars to bacteria decreased dramatically ( if not completely depending on your set up) Now of course you can go too far the other way and your grain will just dry out and stall. I haven’t had a fungal contam on grain in a long while so as long as I skirt bacteria I’m usually in the clear. That’s all I meant by overhydration leads to bacterial problems I only commented on it because I literally just experienced this again a couple runs ago and I went a head and hit them anyways thinking it would be OK then I had gone that far so I went ahead and bulked the jars. Here is the difference in yield (same iso same FC)
Bacterial spawn (over hydrated grain)

Healthy spawn
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Edited by Jakeoncid419 (01/02/20 06:04 PM)
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26412911 - 01/02/20 04:43 PM (4 years, 27 days ago) |
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The first 2 and the last pic of the bacterial spawn match up with the first two pictures of the healthy Spawn (Texas iso) Then the 3rd & 4th match with the second 2 (pan peace river iso)
-------------------- Natural omt/detox online pant cult classes available last Saturday of every month go to buymeacoffee.com/jakeoncid to sign up (1 on 1 consultations also available JOC PAN TEK CORDYCEPS MILITARIS EXOTICS [
Edited by Jakeoncid419 (01/02/20 04:43 PM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26413255 - 01/02/20 08:50 PM (4 years, 26 days ago) |
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Quote:
Jakeoncid419 said: Now of course you can go too far the other way and your grain will just dry out and stall.
That's where I was coming from. So it's not a huge amount of water difference but enough to matter. And of course way over capacity gives you burst kernels and trouble shaking it up, never mind encouraging bacteria if it's there to grow.
I'll just follow them through to fruiting off grain, then do 3 tubs from +20, +50, and probably +80 (not in the original set) on bulk to see what happens as well. This is PE and it likes water unlike some though, true enough.
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Jakeoncid419
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26413271 - 01/02/20 08:58 PM (4 years, 26 days ago) |
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Yeah I could def see pe needing more. I haven’t experimented/experienced that much with this as it applies to cubes simply because I don’t run many but watch pan jars cycle steady over the last year and this def rings true for them. If my pan myc looks like cube myc I know my yield is gonna take a hit
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Edited by Jakeoncid419 (01/02/20 10:01 PM)
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murderlabz
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: Jakeoncid419]
#26413325 - 01/02/20 09:31 PM (4 years, 26 days ago) |
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Does the gypsum amount play into this? As gypsum is a humic substance in theory it stores up moisture but could inhibit the growth of Bacteria(in the Gypsum it's self not the grains) acting as a water reservoir so the grains are not over saturated? Correct me on this..
Edited by murderlabz (01/02/20 10:00 PM)
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Grain hydration (yeah I know it's an amazingly cool topic) [Re: murderlabz]
#26415209 - 01/03/20 09:23 PM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
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1-3-20
Recovery day 2:

Tomorrow I'll case them all into trays for the next stage.
murderlabz I add a little gypsum to the extra water because it supposedly helps with grain clumping. But it's hardly any at all since it doesn't dissolve very well.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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