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faoneus
Faoneus


Registered: 10/07/18
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If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? 1
#26407145 - 12/30/19 01:51 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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This question was pointed out on PsychedSubstance's most recent podcast.
Edited by faoneus (12/30/19 01:52 AM)
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: faoneus]
#26407153 - 12/30/19 02:04 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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You are now asking actual rational questions.
I'd assert the SELF is what's observing. I'd also assert there's no separation between ego and SELF; you can't parse "it". The more you try to the more unnecessary moving parts you add, simply to satisfy arbitrary reductionist models. You're always existentially anchored in some capacity. Ego "death" is more like temporary disassociation IMHO.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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kneesocks
Divineress



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Re: If the ego is what observes, who watches the ego dissolve? [Re: faoneus] 3
#26407177 - 12/30/19 02:41 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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The ego isn't the one observing. The ego is pretty low in the hierarchy.
The one watching is 'I AM'
-------------------- "An ignorant man is lost, faithless, and filled with self-doubt; A soul that harbors doubt has no joy, not in this world or the next." -Bhagavad-gita 4:40
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26407249 - 12/30/19 04:49 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: You are now asking actual rational questions.
I'd assert the SELF is what's observing. I'd also assert there's no separation between ego and SELF; you can't parse "it". The more you try to the more unnecessary moving parts you add, simply to satisfy arbitrary reductionist models. You're always existentially anchored in some capacity. Ego "death" is more like temporary disassociation IMHO.
There is a more basic reaction context in conscious life than self or ego - both of which are the same thing, unless you consider that the self contains multiple functional ego expressions (which is true). in any situation the appropriate ego construct plays out its role. you get ego-death/dissolution when no contextual behavior is initiated, yet awareness continues through this span of time while the ego(s) refrain to express what would normally be expressed (i.e. thoughts, words, actions...).
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lwheidt
the bridgesii guy



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: redgreenvines] 3
#26407285 - 12/30/19 05:21 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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The ego and personality are not all that we are. We are part spirit. This is what's left when the ego disappears. We need ego and personality to manage through our world. But it isn't what is truly important. Our spirit is our true self. It is what you fall in love with, what you see in your lovers eyes, what you see in your pets, in all things we truly love
-------------------- -bridgesii guy
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Loaded Shaman
Psychophysiologist



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26407303 - 12/30/19 05:45 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: You are now asking actual rational questions.
I'd assert the SELF is what's observing. I'd also assert there's no separation between ego and SELF; you can't parse "it". The more you try to the more unnecessary moving parts you add, simply to satisfy arbitrary reductionist models. You're always existentially anchored in some capacity. Ego "death" is more like temporary disassociation IMHO.
There is a more basic reaction context in conscious life than self or ego - both of which are the same thing, unless you consider that the self contains multiple functional ego expressions (which is true). in any situation the appropriate ego construct plays out its role. you get ego-death/dissolution when no contextual behavior is initiated, yet awareness continues through this span of time while the ego(s) refrain to express what would normally be expressed (i.e. thoughts, words, actions...).
I don't see a problem with what you're saying because I see consciousness/existence as corollaries. They're inseparable. How you choose to parse that up is up to you (lol).
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Ghost
Chaotic


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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: Loaded Shaman] 3
#26407686 - 12/30/19 12:10 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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You're getting into territory that isn't objective here. The ego is a concept. It isn't a real thing in the the way a physical object is. But to answer your question I would say that the ego has more to do with the knowledge that you exist as a person or an entity distinct and separate from the world. Without the ego you can still have sensory input, still have thoughts and feelings but they are disconnected from the idea that you are a person moving through the world. This is where the notion of becoming one with the earth or merging with the universe comes from.
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footpath
ὕδωρχοίρος

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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: Ghost] 1
#26407777 - 12/30/19 01:15 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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I imagine, probably sooner than later, we'll drop the classification of egos as defined states of consciousness altogether. It seems simultaneously lacking in detail and inaccurately complicated.
You are consciously aware on a plethora of different levels because of a plethora of different functions - many of which were unknown at the conceptualization of the ego construct. If you're able to perceive something, inevitable of how complexly you can analyze those perceptions, you are consciously aware within your own self by any number of different functions. Anything else is lack of consciousness.
Just because your worldview has been irreversibly transformed because of a moment of altered perception doesn't mean that you're somehow no longer consciously perceiving by your own means. No matter what, it's always just you. Which function of you? Probably not something so frivolously archaic as an ego.
It'd be my hope that the field of psychedelics can help to reconstruct the framework of psychic understanding, but it seems there's still the same old hangups. Like egotism.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: footpath]
#26407902 - 12/30/19 02:41 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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good point
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HolyBolete
Mold Slayer



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26407931 - 12/30/19 02:58 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Yes to what most people are saying in here. Ego itself is not an objective truth that everyone agrees upon. The observing self has to identify with the things that make us Egotistical. Ego death and dissolution will mean different things at different doses and is something different for everyone.
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ft116
The one



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26407935 - 12/30/19 02:59 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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I have been feeling quite Strange lately. I get a kind of ego lost Sensation. When I try to communicate With people it’s like I am not Their. I have never felt like it before And I put it all down to my Drug use. But for some reason I can’t Stop. It’s like something keeps On pushing me to try more. God knows what it is.
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The mushrooms are great. The mushrooms are fine. Give me them with lashings of wine.
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Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: faoneus]
#26410533 - 01/01/20 07:22 AM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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The idea of the 'ego' is part of the Freudian model of the psyche (the id, the ego, the super-ego) which has little scientific credibility these days; the term 'ego' is more commonly used to mean the 'self' or the 'sense of self'.
I think the answer to this question is that "conscious experience" is not exactly the same thing as the "self" or the "sense of self". You can temporarily dissolve the sense of self while still remaining conscious. If you trip at high doses, you can sometimes get the alarming impression that your 'sense of self' is vital to your continued existence, that if the trip severs this part of your conscious experience you will 'die', that you must cling on to reality at all costs. If I stop being aware of the trees, the forest will cease to exist.
To be conscious without a sense of self is a strange experience (see all the threads on 'ego death') but you can already get some hint of what this would be like from your experience of sleeping and dreaming. There are states of deep sleep in which you are basically unconscious and unaware, and dream states in which you are conscious but you do not have full access to your 'sense of self'. You dream as yourself but you lack the full-blown waking sense of self that would say "hang on, why am I in this weird scenario that makes no sense."
If your 'ego' dissolves further than this dream-self, you can still be conscious, but various elements of the self (the inner monologue, using language to define your thoughts, your sense of being a person with a name and a job and a life) are 'dissolved' or asleep, and your conscious experience changes into something more dissociative; boundless and potentially mystical.
In the 'iceberg' metaphor which appears near the bottom of the wikipedia page linked above, you could imagine the iceberg flipping over, the ego now being underwater and the id now flooding into your consciousness - something previously unconscious now enters your awareness.
I think becoming aware of this different type of consciousness which is 'you' without necessarily being part of your normal sense of self gives a hint of just how much is going on in the brain beneath the surface of your day-to-day consciousness. The Buddhist idea that the 'self' is an illusion, behind which lies the true nature of mind, does make some sense, and has some resonance with modern science which also asks awkward questions about the nature of this 'self' and how it fits in with conscious and unconscious states in the brain as a whole.
'You' watch your ego dissolve, but 'you' as a conscious entity encompasses more than just your immediate day-to-day sense of self - instead of blacking out you drop into a different layer of consciousness; you could call it a dissociative trance or something like that.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: If the ego is what observes, what watches the ego dissolve? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26411008 - 01/01/20 02:00 PM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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someone has posted in another thread how languages deeply affect the notions of reality for the people who speak those languages.
I believe we are mostly operating in our own projected versions of reality with a minimal live sensory feeds connected into the world at large (of which culture and language are part).
What we are talking about now in this thread, is how each of our versions of the meaning of "ego-loss" is validly different (why wouldn't they be?)
Even how any of us interprets Buddhist self-architectures vs. Freud's definitions is likely to be idiosyncratic (expect incompleteness and awkward filling of gaps).
however, many of us seem to agree about there being an ecstatic experience in which idiosyncracies blend into some larger tapestry exceeding everyday notions.
trying to bind ecstatic experiences into ordinary language and culture rarely satisfies enough majority to have a truly common meaning. It transcends the everyday in mental-spiritual terms the way a holiday transcends ordinary physical-emotional life.
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