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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #26445900 - 01/22/20 09:12 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I live by a set of principles...but they change based on by case basis nearly every day and every minute.




There must be something overarching that stimulates that change then? Otherwise why change unless some broader value was urging it?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OnlineKickleM
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26445905 - 01/22/20 09:15 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
There's an interesting phenomenon that I have been given the chance to see in this crazy world, and it is chiefly this, that it is very difficult for cultures or even whole families (father, mother, child) to live according to a set of principles (whatever those principles be).

It's easy for individuals to do, but difficult for families, and I think it's by design.

What I was wondering is if anyone at the shroomery lives according to a set of principles or knows someone who does. And how has your struggle played out against breaking those principles when you were tempted to abandon them?




As a certain poster once brought up for dialogue, those who have been hurt tend to not want to hurt others. There are exceptions. 

I personally think this may have a lot to do with the Buddhist philosophies. If life is suffering, who in their right mind would want to add to that? And so you get some tenants about limiting one's additions...

IMO most value systems stem from some form of this. And of course I am including my own here.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Kickle]
    #26450749 - 01/24/20 08:23 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:


As a certain poster once brought up for dialogue, those who have been hurt tend to not want to hurt others. There are exceptions. 

I personally think this may have a lot to do with the Buddhist philosophies. If life is suffering, who in their right mind would want to add to that? And so you get some tenants about limiting one's additions...

IMO most value systems stem from some form of this. And of course I am including my own here.




Indeed simply being harmless is often seen as unambitious; but when one looks at what goes on in the world, and how hard it often is to be harmless in unexpected situations, then one realizes that having a lot of fancy principles is not necessarily helpful.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog]
    #26450881 - 01/24/20 10:04 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

So the principles you espouse...they must be ones that correctly come to terms with the situations that you are frequenting..


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26452587 - 01/25/20 08:53 PM (4 years, 3 days ago)

Many people have the very basic principle of taking care of family as a priority.
Of course most mammals do the same thing, and we call it instinct,
which raises the question of why some humans need to flatter themselves with fancy words, like 'principles' rather than 'instinct'.

Interestingly the training of soldiers/marines is: 'no one left behind', so the training mimics the family instinct, to include those who are not relatives, (ie. to include those who share fewer of the same genes). So that they will risk their own life for their comrades. The brutality of training, where all suffer together, bonds them. There is a science to the method. And bonding is necessary so that they learn  to trust one another, in life and death situations. So what is desired, is not being able to discuss morality and principles, but being able to act, against selfish interest, without thinking immediately and spontaneously.


Edited by laughingdog (01/25/20 08:56 PM)


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Kickle]
    #26453959 - 01/26/20 05:53 PM (4 years, 3 days ago)

Some principles, like calling no man on the earth your father is counter-instictual, and in those kinds of cases, calling it instinct is inappropriate


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Offlineskywhisp
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26453981 - 01/26/20 06:08 PM (4 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Kickle said:


As a certain poster once brought up for dialogue, those who have been hurt tend to not want to hurt others. There are exceptions. 

I personally think this may have a lot to do with the Buddhist philosophies. If life is suffering, who in their right mind would want to add to that? And so you get some tenants about limiting one's additions...

IMO most value systems stem from some form of this. And of course I am including my own here.




Indeed simply being harmless is often seen as unambitious; but when one looks at what goes on in the world, and how hard it often is to be harmless in unexpected situations, then one realizes that having a lot of fancy principles is not necessarily helpful.




I think striving to be harmless in everything you do will ultimately produce more suffering. Consider, "being cruel to be kind." The most effective learning we do in life usually stems from failure. Failure usually produces feelings of suffering, but this is good for you. If you are resilient enough to be able to learn from it, that is.
Consider the trope of the overbearing mother. In her ambitions to reduce the suffering of her children, she limits their negative experiences of the world. Sheltered children usually have fewer psychological tools for coping with the world, which is brutal and will leave you for dead if you are unwitting. Humans need a little bit of suffering to develop properly. 

On the broader topic, I think values/principles are helpful because they give you a scaffold for decision making. Humans are only animals but we have the capacity to reason. I think reasoning about what is ethical in a decision is a fundamentally good thing, even if what is good is still subjective. Beats living like so many predatory mammals which commit infanticide to further their own genetic line. Humans absolutely have a history of doing this but it is good that we have the capacity to condemn it and strive for better. If families, and more broadly society, can adhere fairly well to a shared set of values, that society has a good chance of functioning well.

We are currently experiencing a tumultuous period where there are many clashes of values/principles from lots of different groups, which is why so many public conversations are extremely hostile. We have religions clashing, generations clashing, and sub-cultures clashing. It seems to me if we focused on the values that we all share right now, we might have a bit more societal cohesion.

Anyway, that is my two-cents. Cool topic of conversation.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: skywhisp]
    #26454066 - 01/26/20 07:10 PM (4 years, 3 days ago)

It depends on how you define "harmless" doesn't it?
Buddhism may not always be what some expect:
Best I could find, but this is misleading--they actually hit hard.



even this is play, demonstration of keisaku  is at end



and much of Zen practice is a bit like boot camp


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog]
    #26454151 - 01/26/20 08:08 PM (4 years, 3 days ago)

my principles:
a sense of dignity, and of empathy
otherwise,
keep on learning, and staying in the moment,


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinekitten6
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26455123 - 01/27/20 12:55 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

I think principal is not a set of rules but rather the product of your morality. There are no rules set in stone, set beforehand. Instead you live life avoiding doing things that make you feel guilty or cause regret (the product of going against morals). When I refer to morals, I mean morals without the bias of emotion. When you are calm and collected and tranquil that is when your morals show in their purest form. Everyone's emotions work differently from each others and that is based of physical body chemistry/the mind, for example women who have their period every month have certain times where it is difficult for them to stay in control of their emotions. Some don't realise it, some do but either way they may do things they regret after. And it is up to the people around them to remind them of themselves.

From the top of my head, there are things that people do that start giving warnings on my moral compass. For example gossiping or joking about other people/making fun of people. All the time on TV or whatever you see comedians making fun of certain people, and people laughing those are the shit comedians. Its this finger pointing behaviour that's bad.

But for me every time I abandon my principles even for a second, I will regret it for the rest of my life. And for me the only way of coping with past mistakes is to smoke a cig and let bygones be bygones.


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OfflineAZZI
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: kitten6]
    #26455399 - 01/27/20 03:04 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

Principal is the head of a school.

Just being a smart aleck. :smile:


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🌸🌸🌸


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: skywhisp]
    #26455891 - 01/27/20 07:49 PM (4 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

skywhisp said:

We are currently experiencing a tumultuous period where there are many clashes of values/principles from lots of different groups, which is why so many public conversations are extremely hostile. We have religions clashing, generations clashing, and sub-cultures clashing. It seems to me if we focused on the values that we all share right now, we might have a bit more societal cohesion.




The lines have been drawn and now many people are more committed to identifying with a sub-group (skin color, sexual preference, political affiliation, etc.) than as human beings. So we wallow in orgies of outrage as many of these sub-groups embrace victimhood and stand their ground. As the anger grows and grows. 

I think we can strive to not cause ourselves and others harm - while not trying to eradicate the natural suffering we all experience. I don't think a parent who allows their children to be exposed to a reasonable amount of suffering or failure is causing harm or is being "cruel to be kind."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26456013 - 01/27/20 08:51 PM (4 years, 1 day ago)

"I think we can strive to not cause ourselves and others harm - while not trying to eradicate the natural suffering we all experience. I don't think a parent who allows their children to be exposed to a reasonable amount of suffering or failure is causing harm or is being "cruel to be kind."
:thumbup:

Seems often 2 sources provide answers that already exist:
Nature and the Tao Te Ching
Animals don't coddle their young.Today their are many nature documentaries on youtube where one can see this. To equate harmlessness with weakness, is just one possible association. But weakness that cripples others or oneself is harmful, hence  equating  harmlessness with weakness, seems a less than optimal way to define it.

The Tao Te Ching , acknowledges paradoxes in everything.
It is "because" of dualistic thinking. which loses sight of the paradoxical, that people identify with fixed positions, & concepts, & proclaim their principles & virtues.

  http://albanycomplementaryhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/TaoTeChing-LaoTzu-StephenMitchellTranslation-33p.pdf

19) Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier.

Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing.
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves.

from (38)
The kind man does something,
yet something remains undone.
The just man does something,
and leaves many things to be done.
The moral man does something,
and when no one responds
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.
When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

from #57
Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.

Tao Te Ching written by Lao-tzu
Translation by Stephen. Mitchell

and so on...
the down load is free
and various translations are available
and its only 33 pages of short verses

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=tao+te+ching+pdf&ia=web


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