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InvisibleHartford
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Living according to a set of principles * 1
    #26406476 - 12/29/19 02:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There's an interesting phenomenon that I have been given the chance to see in this crazy world, and it is chiefly this, that it is very difficult for cultures or even whole families (father, mother, child) to live according to a set of principles (whatever those principles be).

It's easy for individuals to do, but difficult for families, and I think it's by design.

What I was wondering is if anyone at the shroomery lives according to a set of principles or knows someone who does. And how has your struggle played out against breaking those principles when you were tempted to abandon them?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26407234 - 12/30/19 04:41 AM (4 years, 30 days ago)

somewhat Human to live by principles or commandments more or less with your families in an orderly society...

situations arise that do not map so easily into the contexts that preconceived principles address.

errors appear, and for that we need graceful error recovery.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26409249 - 12/31/19 12:15 PM (4 years, 29 days ago)

Principles are sometimes referred to as values. I'm unsure if consistently acting from a foundation of values is easy for individuals to accomplish. Maybe it's easy to do but many are unwilling?


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26410160 - 12/31/19 11:07 PM (4 years, 28 days ago)

I had little to no principles to follow and no father figure other than perhaps David Attenborough in film.

It was nice. It still is.

For me, absolute language, like ā€˜never’, ā€˜always’, etc. is a principle I try to follow, I also like to add that ā€˜I think’, in situations where it’s my opinion or belief in a subject.

A hard one to follow is that people don’t make us angry, that you decide to be angry. The principle that says we have self control.
If we curse at two individuals, one may laugh while the other cries.

It’s different really, imo, when the family is split early.

My dad left us when I was 7. We signed a paper agreeing that if we misbehaved he’d leave. He also told me on Father’s Day, after I wished him a well Father’s Day, that he’s not a father.  He’s not a dad. And he’s been overseas ever since, visiting perhaps every second year or so.

Family dynamics are dynamic.

I don’t think my family helped to curb my principles, I experienced my own hardships and I think that was the group of experiences that had the most influence on my principles.

Still to this day they evolve as I face more hardships and joys.

Slowly but surely my principles have developed.

Personally, it seems at least my own principles have cracks.

When individual principles collide, when two people meet, and try to bond those principles, it can mix in many ways.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: sudly]
    #26410784 - 01/01/20 11:26 AM (4 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:

It’s different really, imo, when the family is split early.

My dad left us when I was 7. We signed a paper agreeing that if we misbehaved he’d leave. He also told me on Father’s Day, after I wished him a well Father’s Day, that he’s not a father.  He’s not a dad. And he’s been overseas ever since, visiting perhaps every second year or so.





wow - that's heavy Sudly


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26414665 - 01/03/20 04:20 PM (4 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:

It's easy for individuals to do, ....




Until "push comes to shove"; apparently you never watched any good movies, ( as a great percentage are about what happens once the pressure is on), or read any history, or.... 'got out of the house'.

On the other hand, are 'high minded' people, who are always self consciously trying to be good, any fun to be around?

hmmm...


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog]
    #26414894 - 01/03/20 06:21 PM (4 years, 26 days ago)

I find that most of my values are unarticulated but I nonetheless act them out. I think that like most people, I rationalize post hoc about why I behaved in certain ways. Likewise, I can sit and opine or walk through hypothetical scenarios and how I’d act but when confronted with the actual scenario, I’d probably act differently.

We act out our beliefs. Rationalizing about a lot of this stuff is more or less a hobby. To make small tweaks to our value system is no small feat, painstaking but possible.

These things are susceptible to factors like stress and how much we did or did not have for lunch today. It’s not as trivial as people think.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: CountHTML]
    #26415448 - 01/04/20 02:12 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:
...These things are susceptible to factors like stress and how much we did or did not have for lunch today. It’s not as trivial as people think.




Sounds like you're familiar with the study of those on a parole board who had lunch, and their verdicts, vs those who had no lunch & thus lower blood sugar & satisfaction, & their verdicts.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Judges+who+had+no+lunch%2C+%26+parole&ia=web

Indeed folks generally flatter themselves. Its another one of those things where the more certain folks are sure they don't do it, the more certain it is that they do.
Bunch of silly primates, we are.


Edited by laughingdog (01/04/20 02:05 PM)


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: CountHTML] * 1
    #26416241 - 01/04/20 03:56 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

CountHTML said:

I find that most of my values are unarticulated but I nonetheless act them out. I think that like most people, I rationalize post hoc about why I behaved in certain ways. Likewise, I can sit and opine or walk through hypothetical scenarios and how I’d act but when confronted with the actual scenario, I’d probably act differently.




For values to be useful, I believe they need to be spelled out (at least in a simple fashion). I've been in group discussions where people revealed their core values and it was interesting. But you are right in that someone can claim they hold the value of self-care but then treat their body like crap and eat unhealthy food and huff paint and pop pills.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26417196 - 01/05/20 09:12 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

I find it odd that people can simply state their values in a group session.
personally I would have to spend quite some time alone to draft up something that might be consistent.

I am aware that my thoughts words and actions are not consistent with any set values, as they represent more isolated self completing complexes (differently for each context) more than any organized self expression. Other people in my world are the same and I have avoided calling them out as they immediately become defensive.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26417750 - 01/05/20 03:15 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

exactly:

Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind
by Robert Kurzban  | May 27, 2012

"We're all hypocrites. Why? Hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind.


Robert Kurzban shows us that the key to understanding our behavioral inconsistencies lies in understanding the mind's design. The human mind consists of many specialized units designed by the process of evolution by natural selection. While these modules sometimes work together seamlessly, they don't always, resulting in impossibly contradictory beliefs, vacillations between patience and impulsiveness, violations of our supposed moral principles, and overinflated views of ourselves.


This modular, evolutionary psychological view of the mind undermines deeply held intuitions about ourselves, as well as a range of scientific theories that require a "self" with consistent beliefs and preferences. Modularity suggests that there is no "I." Instead, each of us is a contentious "we"--a collection of discrete but interacting systems whose constant conflicts shape our interactions with one another and our experience of the world.


In clear language, full of wit and rich in examples, Kurzban explains the roots and implications of our inconsistent minds, and why it is perfectly natural to believe that everyone else is a hypocrite."

4.2 out of 5 stars

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Everyone-Else-Hypocrite-Evolution/dp/0691154392/ref=sr_1_2?crid=P91SUBQD8YUV&keywords=why+everyone+else+is+a+hypocrite&qid=1578262303&s=books&sprefix=why+everyone%2Cstripbooks%2C264&sr=1-2


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26418478 - 01/05/20 10:07 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I find it odd that people can simply state their values in a group session.
personally I would have to spend quite some time alone to draft up something that might be consistent.




The reason some folks can simply state their values is that they put in the work to get to the root of what is important to them. It's not easy! The fact it can be difficult is fascinating, because we are creatures that routinely spew gigantic volumes of thoughts - why would it be so hard to describe what is important to us - our values? I wonder if someone could make the argument that if you are unable to verbalize your values, you don't have any, and you just live your life tossed around like a tissue in the wind. And sometimes a hurricane.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26418490 - 01/05/20 10:15 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Is it more important to articulate values, or to actually simply be a decent person?
Animals have empathy but do not articulate it.
Where as the Taoists pointed out long ago much concern & proclamation of morality, usually leads to its opposite.

The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates 1st Edition
by Frans de Waal (Author)

"In this lively and illuminating discussion of his landmark research, esteemed primatologist Frans de Waal argues that human morality is not imposed from above but instead comes from within. Moral behavior does not begin and end with religion but is in fact a product of evolution.

For many years, de Waal has observed chimpanzees soothe distressed neighbors and bonobos share their food. Now he delivers fascinating fresh evidence for the seeds of ethical behavior in primate societies that further cements the case for the biological origins of human fairness. Interweaving vivid tales from the animal kingdom with thoughtful philosophical analysis, de Waal seeks a bottom-up explanation of morality that emphasizes our connection with animals. In doing so, de Waal explores for the first time the implications of his work for our understanding of modern religion. Whatever the role of religious moral imperatives, he sees it as a ā€œJohnny-come-latelyā€ role that emerged only as an addition to our natural instincts for cooperation and empathy.
But unlike the dogmatic neo-atheist of his book’s title, de Waal does not scorn religion per se. Instead, he draws on the long tradition of humanism exemplified by the painter Hieronymus Bosch and asks reflective readers to consider these issues from a positive perspective: What role, if any, does religion play for a well-functioning society today? And where can believers and nonbelievers alike find the inspiration to lead a good life?

Rich with cultural references and anecdotes of primate behavior, The Bonobo and the Atheist engagingly builds a unique argument grounded in evolutionary biology and moral philosophy. Ever a pioneering thinker, de Waal delivers a heartening and inclusive new perspective on human nature and our struggle to find purpose in our lives."

https://www.amazon.com/Bonobo-Atheist-Search-Humanism-Primates/dp/0393347796/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1FK7T4HFMAXTK&keywords=the+bonobo+and+the+atheist&qid=1578287383&s=books&sprefix=the+bono%2Cstripbooks%2C267&sr=1-1


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog]
    #26418513 - 01/05/20 10:33 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Is it more important to articulate values, or to actually simply be a decent person?




Can we be "decent" people without values? Maybe. Or maybe not. I'm unsure.

My point is, if you don't know your values, how can you use them to make decisions and choices in life? Values guide our actions, so if we don't know our values, how can we use them?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26418802 - 01/06/20 06:39 AM (4 years, 23 days ago)

I value being kind, truthful, and keeping calm.


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26419302 - 01/06/20 01:12 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:

Is it more important to articulate values, or to actually simply be a decent person?




Can we be "decent" people without values? Maybe. Or maybe not. I'm unsure.

My point is, if you don't know your values, how can you use them to make decisions and choices in life? Values guide our actions, so if we don't know our values, how can we use them?




Well what about maternal instinct? Just about all mammals have it. Seems to me a lot of us are so "up in our heads", that we assume concepts are prior to everything else.

But perhaps being loved as a child is where the capacity for gentleness originates or is nurtured.
If we are human, of course we are specifically taught to be fair and share, but other creatures of course manage without verbalized concepts.
I think you would enjoy the book:
The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates
by Frans de Waal
also available from Hamilton Books at a discount, or perhaps a library.

When it comes to values, we all like be seen as having good ones -- but that itself is not a value we particularly want others to know we have, especially when it is overpowering.

It also seems that, when 'push comes to shove' , the question often boils down to how much courage we have, and not just how noble our thoughts are.

So perhaps ultimately, if the issue of values, seems important to us the next questions need to be: How does one cultivate courage? and How does one cultivate indifference to (or transcend) physical pain?

Native cultures (&Buddhism, etc.) actually confronted this:

"Typically, the Sun Dance is a grueling ordeal for the dancers, a physical and spiritual test that they offer in sacrifice for their people. According to the Oklahoma Historical Society, young men dance around a pole to which they are fastened by "rawhide thongs pegged through the skin of their chests."[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Dance

https://duckduckgo.com/q=american+indian+sundance+ceremony&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=american+indian+sundance+ceremony&ia=web


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26421967 - 01/07/20 08:42 PM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:

Is it more important to articulate values, or to actually simply be a decent person?




Can we be "decent" people without values? Maybe. Or maybe not. I'm unsure.

My point is, if you don't know your values, how can you use them to make decisions and choices in life? Values guide our actions, so if we don't know our values, how can we use them?





Frans de Waal's insights on the subject are also available for free on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=frans+de+waal


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Offlinesideroxylon
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: laughingdog]
    #26422764 - 01/08/20 11:07 AM (4 years, 21 days ago)

The family, like the state, is pure construct. It is not something tangible like, say, wood. There is nothing permanent in a family. Wanting values to be permanent is more often than not a slippery slope.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: sideroxylon]
    #26422820 - 01/08/20 11:35 AM (4 years, 21 days ago)

is this about family values?
I have heard this phrase used many ways, mostly manipulatively, politically, and psychologically.

I reduce "family values" to caring for the people you are close to, and yourself, and not interfering in other people's family dynamics.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Living according to a set of principles [Re: Hartford]
    #26443721 - 01/20/20 07:14 PM (4 years, 9 days ago)

I live by a set of principles...but they change based on by case basis nearly every day and every minute.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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