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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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The art of conversation and social anxiety
    #26404785 - 12/28/19 02:07 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I suspect a lot of social anxiety is fueled by a lack of ability to comfortably engage in causal conversation. Recently, at holiday gatherings, I've heard friends say "I hate small talk.". I've asked what they hate about it, in an attempt to understand why "small talk" is so difficult. One friend, Donna, said she hates listening to people talk about things she's not interested in.

20 years ago I hated social situations where I was expected to engage in casual conversation. But I began working on my conversation skills, focusing on asking good questions and listening. Fast forward to now, and just yesterday I spent 3 hours at a Starbucks chatting with a friend of mine. I feel the art of conversation is largely rooted in asking quality questions and actually listening.

Do you work on your social skills or have thoughts about the art of conversation? Although talking about the weather might be "small talk", anything meaningful that's shared (even if the person is passionate about ancient Egyptian pottery) is not small.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 4
    #26404800 - 12/28/19 02:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I've always found it quite easy to engage in conversation, but I do get bored with it fairly easily. However, dialogue with a good friend or someone who has good ideas can be very stimulating, and sometimes valuable. As far as small talk, whether or not one is really engaged, it can often be a way to make the person you are talking to more comfortable, which is compassionate.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26404832 - 12/28/19 02:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

One challenge to having a pleasant conversation is when there is a lopsided talk-listen ratio. Some people just ramble on and on. For example, I have a friend when we get together, the talk listen ratio is about 7:1 - for every 7 minutes he talks I get a chance to talk for 1 minute. It's so one sided (he never asks me about my life) that I avoid him sometimes when he comes thru town.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26404845 - 12/28/19 02:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Yes that can be a virtually insurmountable problem. What I really dislike is when the other person can't think of anything to say, so you are the only one making conversation. Although as you point out, for some people it can be difficult, and I understand that.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26404900 - 12/28/19 03:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The "I don't know what to say" stressor can really cause us to feel stuck. This stressing handicaps us even more and further inhibits conversation, as we shift and squirm in distress. (I need another drink!) Every person has something important and of value in their life, even if it's a pet dog or a collection of ancient Egyptian marbles or a passionate interest in poetry. Most people enjoy talking about what interests them, and a well placed question can really spark someone to open up. Just asking someone their pet's name or pedigree can get someone to open up. You do not have to know anything about what they find of value. If they drive a hot rod race car you can ask what year it was built or where they got it or how they modified it, etc.     

When I become bored in a conversation it's often due to there not being a balance in talking and listening.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26404950 - 12/28/19 03:45 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

One curious aspect is that interest will be on the person or the topic. If the interest is on the person, any topic is fine. If the interest is on the topic, some topics may be boring. A general statement might suggest being topic oriented is more self centered, although obviously it's not always the topic that's boring or holds other disparate qualities.

I have a friend who I've known forever. He's very cynical, though in stating that it went beyond mistrust and included a general view of humanity as stupid, gullible, etc. Very smart too. I used to be much more cynical than I am now so we could vibe well. These days we still share a lot of viewpoints but the character of the discussion doesn't match. I don't enjoy reveling in the ignorance of humanity like I may have in the past.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26404956 - 12/28/19 03:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

social anxiety is like feeling you are being examined, judged or threatened.
I often revert to this but it is more like twinges from childhood past.

easy conversation smooths the situation, like diplomacy, or entertainment, it can be calming.

some need to talk to surround themselves with comforting assurances of their own echoes.

we are all subject to it, no one trick fixes the pain, but with all the triggering going on, at least some times there is a glimmer of something more lovely.

a smile, a gleam in the eye.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26405581 - 12/29/19 01:25 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

People who "hate small talk" are usually the ones with the least amount of interesting shit to say in the first place, but will be the first people to complain about something they can easily solve themselves.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlineliving_failure
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 3
    #26405813 - 12/29/19 07:16 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The art of conversation is not an art, is like a combat sport. You need to practice it to be good at it. When you stop practicing, the techniques will remain but you will be worse at it.

The main reason most people have social anxiety is because their past experiences made them relate social interaction with bad things happening.

Emotional responses as rooted whithin emotional past, one can rationallize the thought but that doesn't make the emotional response to stop.
In order to stop having anxiety on social situation one must have good experiences while socializing.


Imagine that everytime you get a hardon an invisible ninja gives you a kick in the balls. Eventually you will start having anxiety when you have a hardon just expecting a kick in the balls. With enough time, even when there is no longer a ninja kicking you in the balls, the hardon-anxiety will remain.

Yes, of course having controlled enviroments of small talk can make those good experiencies that will lower the anxiety, however it can still be troublesome.
Imagine someone with no friends, and no friends all his live, only bullyng. When he is 40, he small talks for first time in his life with a good person, the experience is so good that he expects now to get a friend, sadly the good person was just small talking because he was bored, so he refuses the friendship. The failure of expectations might actually be considered a bad experience itself, making the social anxiety continues.


I like small talking with woman i see as sexually attractive or with bosses that might actually improve my career. I don't see the point in small talking with anybody else.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: living_failure]
    #26405827 - 12/29/19 07:31 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

your outlook is about gaming the system, winning or losing.

I think that you have a good sense of operant conditioning, however, and can benefit from seeing how conditioning, or association, has made you so oriented to gaming.

not that it is such a bad thing...


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26406141 - 12/29/19 11:08 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

One curious aspect is that interest will be on the person or the topic. If the interest is on the person, any topic is fine. If the interest is on the topic, some topics may be boring.



This is the exact perspective I've adopted. Having an interest in the person means whatever they find of value is of interest to me, because sharing what we value is intimacy. I have a close friend of 25 years who has always believed in UFO's, The Illuminati, government conspiracies, and he tells me he's often visited by extra terrestrials. It used to bug me, but now I generally just let it go.     

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

social anxiety is like feeling you are being examined, judged or threatened.
I often revert to this but it is more like twinges from childhood past.




I think that's a good description. It's related to feeling self-conscious, which I struggle with a lot. It's not based on any real threat of being judged - it does seem to arise from something deep inside that is rooted in fear - maybe related to a strong desire for social acceptance, which is quite functional from an evolutionary viewpoint.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26406388 - 12/29/19 01:47 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

as a reductionist I call all of it "being defensive"
I am still learning how to recognize and smooth the edges of that habit which got stuck onto so many goofy triggers.


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OfflineAegis
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26406978 - 12/29/19 10:03 PM (4 years, 30 days ago)

What most people consider conversation or small talk is really just talking themselves onto a pedestal and tearing other folks down. It's mind numbing. That and most don't listen, it seems they spend most of their time thinking about what they are gonna say next instead of listening. Around here its; hunting, fishing, football, god; in that order. All fucking day every day. Heres how it goes:

[Joe]: hey you go hunting yesterday.
[Me]: (politely) no, don't hunt.
[Joe]: (staring like i just cussed him) well what'd you think about the game.
[Me]: I don't follow footbal.
Then a whole bunch of I bought this I did that, so and so said this but i said that, let me show you my new abc its better than so and so's. Hey did you hear so and so did this. Blah blahblahblahblah.
Etc.

1 week later

[Me]: Sup joe.
[Joe]: hey how've you been. Do any hunting last weekend?
[Me]: I don't hunt
Etc.

1 week later

same conversation

1 week later
Same

1week later
Same

1 week later

[Me]: hey joe.
[Joe]: hey, you going huntin tomorrow?
[Me]: ?

This goes on every day with everybody here.


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"We are told 'no', we're unimportant, we're peripheral. 'Get a degree, get a job, get a this, get a that.' And then you're a player, you don't want to even play in that game. You want to reclaim your mind and get it out of the hands of the cultural engineers who want to turn you into a half-baked moron consuming all this trash that's being manufactured out of the bones of a dying world.” - T. Mckenna


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Aegis]
    #26407964 - 12/30/19 03:12 PM (4 years, 30 days ago)

I think people just want to connect a bit and they approach that in the best way they know how with all their vices and virtues rolled in. Everyone has both to some extent, people can usually do better but it's hard to see past our sins. We do the best we can for the most part.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Grapefruit] * 5
    #26408421 - 12/30/19 08:20 PM (4 years, 30 days ago)

For better or worse, much of what passes as small talk is part of the need for validation and drama, what Eric Berne (Games People Play) classifies as games. According to the book bad drama is what keeps most people alive in the absence of good drama, the idea being that bad drama stimulates the nervous system and keeps it healthy while an absence of drama of any kind causes the nervous system to atrophy.

When someone complains, it's likely part of a game, the beginnings of which the listener may not be privy to except through the story given. Even "I hate small talk" could be part of a game which started before the conversation. Ironically, talking about how one hates small talk is small talk.

I guess everyone will have their limits, but it could be worth considering that dealing with conversation topics that don't interest is playing a part in someone else's mental health, even if it's negative crap being conveyed, though contributing to someone's health and someone's happiness are two different things.

Interestingly RJ Tubs, Berne suggests that bad drama is much more common than good drama because most people are to large degree incapable of intimacy, intimacy and good drama being somewhat interchangeable.

Should one partake in games as the third party in a person's wheel of misery if it is providing something better than that person's mental atrophy in aloneness? I suppose the enjoyment of such a position would entail one's own benefit in taking part in a drama. People like to think they're islands to themselves but I think for the most part, in the absence of good drama, people seek out bad drama. This is why it could be important to recognize good drama, partake in good drama, create one's own good drama, so that one isn't left chewing leather because it's better than nothing. I'm not suggesting there aren't those who can go for long periods with no drama, but even in such cases good drama is probably still better than no drama. Is being a loner a natural preference or an indicator of intimacy issues?

Anyway, Games People Play is an interesting book I would recommend for people interested in social transaction.


--------------------
rahz

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"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineCountHTML
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Rahz]
    #26408665 - 12/31/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

I tend to get lost socially in interactions involving more than 2 people. By lost, I mean, zoning out. I suspect I also begin listening more as well.

I have very good social acuity and am very perceptive but my ungrounded demeanor makes focusing on some conversations difficult unless it captures me.

I’m great with the art of one on one conversation. Something about groups just disorients me.

I used to have social anxiety but I felt that was generally stemming from perceived lack of competence in certain social situations. Increasing that sense of competence has reduced that. Also, the art of not caring as much about inevitably being received negatively by some people, etc. Life’s too short for all that and there’s a microphone waiting for each and every one of us. We’re all characters in our own ways and I think amplifying these defining / distinctive features is a wonderful thing.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: CountHTML]
    #26408691 - 12/31/19 02:08 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

I have the ability to talk about just about any topic to any person as long as they remain enthusiastic and I'm not expected to be an emotional sponge the entire fucking conversation. I do have introvert tendencies and being around people who are all smoke and no fire is fucking exhausting. I get a good 12 hours out of my day before my head "closes shop" and it's bong time and YouTube/recovery.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Aegis]
    #26408783 - 12/31/19 05:32 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

wait a minute!
is this forum about small-talk, meaningless self affirmations, and repetitive inanity?
I thought we were pushing the envelope or something, but, I see you could be on to something.

after all,
some people write without reading, and what they write is unreadable...
(does that mean I am not reading and just self affirming...)


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26408810 - 12/31/19 06:09 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

What is this forum really about?  :waits:


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26408823 - 12/31/19 06:26 AM (4 years, 29 days ago)

I got to understand that the world is not negative

that almost no experience is negative



we should make art

what we do affects how we have it forever


painting one minute we have it way better for the rest of our lives


get an aeron chair

look good

white magic


not doing drugs


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


Edited by Ferdinando (08/05/20 01:08 PM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Rahz]
    #26409305 - 12/31/19 12:50 PM (4 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:

When someone complains, it's likely part of a game, the beginnings of which the listener may not be privy to except through the story given. Even "I hate small talk" could be part of a game which started before the conversation. Ironically, talking about how one hates small talk is small talk.

I guess everyone will have their limits, but it could be worth considering that dealing with conversation topics that don't interest is playing a part in someone else's mental health, even if it's negative crap being conveyed, though contributing to someone's health and someone's happiness are two different things.

Interestingly RJ Tubs, Berne suggests that bad drama is much more common than good drama because most people are to large degree incapable of intimacy, intimacy and good drama being somewhat interchangeable.




Complaining and negativity are cheap avenues to a sense of intimacy, but irritations and complaints do reveal some things about ourselves. Gossip fits in here somewhere.

I've had 2 conversations recently where people complained about "small talk" and I was a bit baffled. One pregnant woman was complaining about going to a holiday party and having to do "small talk". But then I asked her a couple of questions about her pregnancy and we had a nice chat about it for 5 minutes. I guess that doesn't qualify as "small talk" because the topic interests her? 

We all have our wheels of misery. One thing complaining does is open the door for others to join in and express their complaints. You know, the classic "bitch session" where people aren't really listening and are just waiting for a turn to spew their complaints. There's a sense of validity that can emerge after venting during a bitch session, but the sense of validity is rooted in a self righteous attachment to a viewpoint.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26409511 - 12/31/19 03:05 PM (4 years, 29 days ago)

keep up the good work in the coming year!


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26409800 - 12/31/19 07:14 PM (4 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Complaining and negativity are cheap avenues to a sense of intimacy, but irritations and complaints do reveal some things about ourselves. Gossip fits in here somewhere.

I've had 2 conversations recently where people complained about "small talk" and I was a bit baffled. One pregnant woman was complaining about going to a holiday party and having to do "small talk". But then I asked her a couple of questions about her pregnancy and we had a nice chat about it for 5 minutes. I guess that doesn't qualify as "small talk" because the topic interests her? 

We all have our wheels of misery. One thing complaining does is open the door for others to join in and express their complaints. You know, the classic "bitch session" where people aren't really listening and are just waiting for a turn to spew their complaints. There's a sense of validity that can emerge after venting during a bitch session, but the sense of validity is rooted in a self righteous attachment to a viewpoint.




Yes I think small talk is inconsequential talk, which is therefore boring.

Also agree that an interesting aspect of complaining and other negative drama is that although it may be inconsequential to the listener, the spirit of the complaint is relevant, so it creates the incentive for a bitch session where two people are less concerned with what the other is saying and more concerned with how it's being said.

It may convey a sense of intimacy but I think such comradery will have hard limits since there is no actual help being offered beyond the bad drama. Focusing on the bitcher with a offer of shared problem solving would provide real value and thus create real intimacy, yet such offers will often be rejected, often with angry feelings because the offer interrupted the game the bitcher was trying to play. Also common is ending up playing the "third hand" in a game where no solutions are found but the listener plays the part of sympathizer and validator.

Some articles I've read suggest people primarily want validation for their feelings, yet getting stuck playing this part is also an impediment to intimacy it seems.

And I agree, we all have our wheel of misery. The book suggests its possible to be "mostly game free" but offers no grand solutions. It is not a self help book but rather a book on social psychology. If one reads it expecting helpful tips at the end it will end rather abruptly.

So, coming back to your actual topic, social anxiety would be a sign of the potential for real intimacy... or fresh victims, which is the reason people learn to avoid the vulnerability of intimacy and games are prevalent.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26410377 - 01/01/20 02:51 AM (4 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Rahz said:

When someone complains, it's likely part of a game, the beginnings of which the listener may not be privy to except through the story given. Even "I hate small talk" could be part of a game which started before the conversation. Ironically, talking about how one hates small talk is small talk.

I guess everyone will have their limits, but it could be worth considering that dealing with conversation topics that don't interest is playing a part in someone else's mental health, even if it's negative crap being conveyed, though contributing to someone's health and someone's happiness are two different things.

Interestingly RJ Tubs, Berne suggests that bad drama is much more common than good drama because most people are to large degree incapable of intimacy, intimacy and good drama being somewhat interchangeable.




Complaining and negativity are cheap avenues to a sense of intimacy, but irritations and complaints do reveal some things about ourselves. Gossip fits in here somewhere.

I've had 2 conversations recently where people complained about "small talk" and I was a bit baffled. One pregnant woman was complaining about going to a holiday party and having to do "small talk". But then I asked her a couple of questions about her pregnancy and we had a nice chat about it for 5 minutes. I guess that doesn't qualify as "small talk" because the topic interests her? 

We all have our wheels of misery. One thing complaining does is open the door for others to join in and express their complaints. You know, the classic "bitch session" where people aren't really listening and are just waiting for a turn to spew their complaints. There's a sense of validity that can emerge after venting during a bitch session, but the sense of validity is rooted in a self righteous attachment to a viewpoint.




Most people's definition of "small talk" = "whatever I don't feel like talking about at the moment".


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26411010 - 01/01/20 02:02 PM (4 years, 28 days ago)

the big stuff is about re-election! me me me me me


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26411766 - 01/02/20 01:35 AM (4 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the big stuff is about re-election! me me me me me




Assuming you were actually replying to my comment - are you speaking in regards to people projecting themselves through their political candidates?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26411870 - 01/02/20 04:51 AM (4 years, 27 days ago)

just basic immaturity models of behavior...


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26412650 - 01/02/20 02:20 PM (4 years, 27 days ago)

I was watching an interview with a mid-level movie actor who was talking about being on a set with Robert De Niro. The person was nervous about being around a huge screen icon and at one point casually brought up the subject of Trump. De Niro jumped on it and went off on a critical ramble and then treated the person as a good friend . . . So, depending on what you choose as small talk might be the difference in making a new friend, or not.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26412884 - 01/02/20 04:26 PM (4 years, 27 days ago)

Sometimes talk is cheap and actions are more advantageous.

In my opinion bonds are formed most authentically through shared experiences. Not so much conversation alone.

Personally, I find people who feel the need to talk all the time a little insecure.

It's fun to sit in silence with someone. In fact I find this to be the pinnacle of a relationship. To be able to say nothing and be comfortable with the silence.

I try not and 'read' people which is what a lot of people do when they say they are 'listening'.

Sometimes words are just words. Sometimes sounds are just sounds.

Words point to things but aren't things.

However, words can lead you to various physical places and all you had to do was talk.

Sometimes we talk about our ego all the time. Sometimes we talk about events and things. Sometimes we talk about ideas.

Say nothing or say something doesn't matter. The comfort is only gone when you think silence or sound is strange.

Some people want to press their agenda. Some people want to get in your pants. Sometimes you're not the one someone wants to talk to. Sometimes they're not the one you want to talk to.

I thought I had social anxiety until I realized a lot of 'extroverted' people were just used to screaming and projecting their insecurities and not saying much else.

What are we talking about again?

Conversation is whatever in terms of he said she said.

Conversation that leads to positive action is where it's at.

Sometimes what we say is what we would like to be defined as. I'm telling you who I want to be or think I am. Then maybe giving you an indication of who I think you are, and vice versa.

Really what's happening is we're all just a bunch of horny crazy space monkeys making sounds that point to abstract forms.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: remake]
    #26413370 - 01/02/20 09:55 PM (4 years, 26 days ago)

I think anxiety happens because of fear of failure..


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26413531 - 01/03/20 01:08 AM (4 years, 26 days ago)

That's definitely a primary driving factor for almost all behavior avoidance: failure and/or death.

Actually, I think death is the automatic go to panic script for everything subconsciously.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26415392 - 01/04/20 12:33 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Wow, so death being a threshold is similar to falling asleep and getting lost in dreams..


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: BrendanFlock] * 1
    #26415446 - 01/04/20 02:02 AM (4 years, 25 days ago)

"House"  a TV show staring Hugh Laurie, is partly about someone who has no patience for 'small talk' and how phony a lot of it is. Its part of the humor. Because of course a lot of people are frustrated by it, yet can't escape it.

On the other hand, those who are good at it, can use it as a starting point and then perhaps lead the conversation where they wish.

'Clean Language' is one example of a methodology to increase ones ability to listen.
'Non-violent communication' is  another interesting aspect of what can be done with communication.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Clean+Language&t=h_&ia=web


Edited by laughingdog (01/04/20 02:03 AM)


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26416131 - 01/04/20 02:39 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
just basic immaturity models of behavior...



Orgy has me On Ignore. I don't think he has ever ignored anyone before me.

Links


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26416144 - 01/04/20 02:51 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread and didn't weigh in over the time I saw it.
I guess because I thought like most conversations it would be about nothing....


I see that its not and that true thought is being put into it, so I'm going to weigh in a little later.
I've had my experiences and observations over the years as I'm sure everyone has but I sacrificed greatly to get underneath the heart of a lot of conversation/interaction. Wonder if others share these reflections.. I will try to share this later. That being said, a lot of what is being stated is correct and different pieces of the puzzle. I will try to string it together and will be curious what people will have to say after.

For now, I will leave a cliff hanger of sorts.
I Promise you it will be worth it.. A scorcher; feel free to throw your best fire in the flame when it comes.

I'm hope to stir up a spicy brew, ruffle some feathers, and bring out the MOST in people.
Ultimately though, I want people to weigh in honestly on these reflections..

OK, until then.. going for a walk and eats.

:nicesmile:


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: remake]
    #26416180 - 01/04/20 03:12 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

remake said:

In my opinion bonds are formed most authentically through shared experiences. Not so much conversation alone.




I agree - nothing can take the place of shared experiences. But conversation can be a type of shared experience. If someone is rambling about the traffic or complaining about the weather, that's not intimacy. But if they are talking about guilty feelings associated with the relief a parent died, that's a different thing.   

Quote:

remake said:

It's fun to sit in silence with someone. In fact I find this to be the pinnacle of a relationship. To be able to say nothing and be comfortable with the silence.




:thumbup:  Being comfortable with silence is something I look for in a partner and when interviewing candidates for a job. It's a critical life skill.

Quote:

remake said:

I try not and 'read' people which is what a lot of people do when they say they are 'listening'.




I've worked on simply listening without adding my own commentary and offering solutions to people's problems. I find that's what people usually desire - to be listened to. So often when someone has "problems" we want to jump in, when that's usually not what's needed.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26416295 - 01/04/20 04:35 PM (4 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I suspect a lot of social anxiety is fueled by a lack of ability to comfortably engage in causal conversation. Recently, at holiday gatherings, I've heard friends say "I hate small talk.". I've asked what they hate about it, in an attempt to understand why "small talk" is so difficult. One friend, Donna, said she hates listening to people talk about things she's not interested in.




Social aversion comes from the fact that a lot of people are full of shit, lie, are manipulators, dishonest, deceitful, are judgemental, and the list goes on and on. Whether they are aware or not. Whether they admit to it or not. Conversation is an art-form that partially masks this. A lot of people don't know much and don't have a high IQ. They simply don't have much to talk about because they don't spend time cultivating things beyond their experience. Experience is a given as a human being as are emotions. Everyone has them like assholes. Nobody's is unique. Nobody often times wants to hear long diatribes about them. Most people aren't honest about this. Conversation is usually to share ideas, knowledge, gain something. Most people are unaware. So, most conversations are a song and dance to obscure this.

Your friend Donna isn't wrong in principle but like many are wrong in practice and wrong due to the reasoning/details because they simply don't trouble themselves enough to understand them because 'they're not interested'. I'm interested in a huge range of topics and I am always interested in learning/growing. Most people aren't. This is why people commonly aren't interested in 'conversation'. Small talk by definition is pointless bullshit which is why its called small-talk. No one is a fan of it as its by definition of waste of time. That being said, to a person of low IQ, nothing is small-talk whereas the higher in IQ you go, the more mundane bullshit is.


Some people have a deep awareness of this but haven't figured out how to deal w/ it. This is what causes 'anxiety' without a medical diagnosis. It has very little to do w/ an individual with the aversion and everything to do with how society and people are around them when 'justified'. Ultimately they learn not to waste their time with idiots, emotionally unstable people, or other fruitless people w/ bad energy and centered on the above things and the anxiety subsides because there is no longer any negative forces driving it. They indeed and often find people they deeply engage with and enjoy the company of. No one in this modern age is a 'wierdo hermit'. This concept is a construction of bullshitters to justify a social norm that is artificial.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
20 years ago I hated social situations where I was expected to engage in casual conversation. But I began working on my conversation skills, focusing on asking good questions and listening. Fast forward to now, and just yesterday I spent 3 hours at a Starbucks chatting with a friend of mine. I feel the art of conversation is largely rooted in asking quality questions and actually listening.





I never had this issue so I can't relate. I always enjoyed conversation and am very good at it because I was always a good listener, have a lot of true empathy, and for some time was expanding my knowledge and experience throughout interacting with others.  The skill is obtainable through focus/effort... The art is not. Few people have skills or art. People who do this in a fashion in which it didn't come natural nor was cultivated across experience often have a false sense of their acumen in it. They often are bullshit/business types/managers who had to do it to get ahead in their career/etc and thus are actually horrible at it or true intentions outside a working capacity.

3 hour conversations? That's usually how long my conversations used to last. This is what conversations are like.
They're open ended, broad, and enjoyable such that time flies by. I don't do small talk. I hate it. I don't do gossip, it's negative and pointless. I am not a mainstream media person so I tend to have informed views. Most don't and I don't enjoy conversations with echo chambers or people who repeat common ideology from Mainstream media. If I wanted that I would glue myself to a TV. I do enjoy conversations with people from all walks of life who respect themselves enough to engage in depth in an experience and have deep things they can recount from it... Because in that I am exposed to a world I have never seen, belief, or information. People rarely have the experiences I just mentioned so rarely have anything of true value to speak of. Most people live in the village of society as NPCs and can only speak from such a limited experience. I used to engage such people for years until I understood the root of it. I don't anymore. So, unlike someone intentionally trying to craft 'social skills' which I don't believe is possible. It came to me through experience and spending time/concerted energy to actually practicing it at length with people from all walks of life. Most people don't as they often say, have time for that shit... So frankly, they don't develop 'real' social skills. They develop skills aligned with social norms which are often times 'bullshit'. They also do develop an a false sense of having social skills. You can't teach/train your heart to be in it. It's not cognitive. You're either putting your heart into something or you're not and the more you do is the more you develop the 'art'.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Do you work on your social skills or have thoughts about the art of conversation? Although talking about the weather might be "small talk", anything meaningful that's shared (even if the person is passionate about ancient Egyptian pottery) is not small.



Do you work on your social skills?
No.. I have tons of direct experiences... that taught me lessons. I'm open minded and don't take things personal so I have all throughout my life 'listened' to people, give them comfort in knowing they can critique me as they place, and I always solicit advice. That simply results in a robust framing and understanding of social skills.

Small-talk can be result of a person being small-minded and thus the only thing you're capable of.
Small-talk can also be the result of a person being limited in their experience thus not having much to talk about.
Small-talk can lastly be an attempt to fill the air with bullshit to pass time or attempt to get something more engaging talking.

Small-talk is rarely a person who respected themselves enough to engage an experience deeply, understand it, experience it and thus have something of value t say.

Conversation is when you actually have something of value to say which typically doesn't involve formality, time limits, argument (unless you're dealing with an idiot or someone who is emotionally unstable).. It's a flee-flowing enjoyable experience just like a beautiful trek in the woods. Most people don't know how to have actual conversation because of personal deficits which is why people who do have social aversions. Anxiety is just when a person hasn't figured out how to navigate this shitty world thus is in conflict with it with no solution. The solutions are plenty... The internet brought this out in people. This is why people go off into silo'd communities to engage enjoyable with like minds. Idiots tend to cultivate and hang around idiots. Intellects.. intellects.. spiritual people .. spiritual.. artist. artist.

RARE is the case when there is a bustling community that combines all such people constructively.


Don't know what to say. I can go on and on and welcome anyone to refute this. I'd love actually if more depth can be added to my observation. Ultimately, I've spent a lot of my life learning that a lot of things are bullshit. I don't care to engage them anymore. I do engage and enjoy people, experience, and things that are of depth or value... few are though. I am ok with this and have no anxiety/hangups. It is what it is. So, even in the rare occassion for instance when I get dragged into stupid or idiotic conversations and I let time lapse. I've learned to not ever be attached to it emotionally because by and large the other person isn't.. they're full of shit and have low awareness. I can't fix that. I can't 'show them the way'.. it has to be experienced directly and cultivated.

So, I avoid such convos and people. They are after-all happy in their bubble. The bubble is wide and vast. Manager/business types like to believe they are PhD level psychologist and Grade A conversationalist and humanist. They aren't. Most of them are shit as they've never often humbled themselves or engage life/range of people enough to cultivate the skill through direct experience. They were indeed too busy trying to get that corner office to every truly understand people. Interviews, depending on the industry are shit for this reason. No one is ultimately trying to understand the candidate. They often don't listen to the candidate. They are not empathetic to the candidate. They aren't trying to see them for who they are. They are instead trying to judge them based on a bullshit rubric. The west has a shit sense of humanity/socialization in modern times. It is present a hellavuh lot more in other cultures. People do though fool themselves and shy away from convos that expose their bullshit. If managers, business people, executives were truly people persons, humanist, psychologist, sociologists beyond their ability to do mundane information passing, the world wouldn't be the way it is. Companies wouldn't be what they are. Interviews wouldn't be bullshit, etc etc.


So nah man, the people with social anxiety tend to have it right. They just haven't found good solutions yet. When you do, you intelligently form social aversion. The anxiety gets put into productive filtering of bullshit/bullshiters. When that occurs, you realize the world is largely full of shit and people are too. Quite alright, is what it is. At such a point you aren't a bustling socialite. Instead, you thirst and long for the minority of people with actual social skills and cultivated experiences that can hold conversations. You at that point have realized the difference between bullshit and actual conversation. Socialization in a work capacity is often bullshit btw. People who are consumed by their work never live life enough beyond their job to realize this. However, its the truth. This is why management/executive types have it rough. They think their job's social standards are the real world. They're not.

The idiots/NPCs are in a league of their own. Their convos consist of gossip, bullshit, MUH feels and a whole range of other fruitless garbage. In the middle as is often, is the 'sweet spot'. Few obtain it but everyone thinks they're minting gold.

/RANT OFF


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26416731 - 01/04/20 09:42 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:

3 hour conversations? That's usually how long my conversations used to last. This is what conversations are like. They're open ended, broad, and enjoyable such that time flies by. I don't do small talk. I hate it.




Can't small talk include important topics of value? I've had some very meaningful interactions with people at gatherings that were casual conversations. I'm unable to discriminate between a 3 hour conversation and 3 hours of small talk. I guess small talk is when you don't want to talk to someone. Maybe I'd hate to talk to Albert Einstein at a party - but that's my problem. I'd be a fool to call Einstein an idiot because I couldn't relate to his ideas about physics.
   

Many people feel the world is full of shit and people are too (people lie, are manipulators, dishonest, are idiotic, deceitful, are judgmental) but I think that all comes with being human. We've all done it, so we need to avoid taking a seat on the diamond encrusted golden throne of self-righteous condemnation. When we see it in others, we need to remember to see it in ourselves. 

I believe a lot of social anxiety is fear that has nothing to do with other people's behavior. The anxiety many people experience prior to a gathering - all of the self conscious "what if" type thinking that's rooted in fear... "What if I say something foolish?" type ruminations


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26416776 - 01/04/20 10:14 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Some people are naturally friendly. And they often had a happy childhood. They expect to be liked and others pick up on it.
Others had a miserable childhood, much of the time, and they no longer expect to be liked, just for themselves,  and others pick up on it.

Just calling this complex phenomenon 'anxiety', & thinking its simple, and that 'the cure' is also simple, seems to miss the mark.

Abuse is not a joke. Unfortunately one demonstration of this maybe the mass shootings.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26416821 - 01/04/20 10:47 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Can't small talk include important topics of value?




Nope, not by definition :

small talk
/ˈsmôl ˌtôk/
noun
polite conversation about unimportant or uncontroversial matters, especially as engaged in on social occasions.
"propriety required that he face these people and make small talk"

It's one of the three I highlighted above. This is based by its literal definition. I will accept that it's maybe used incorrectly but in that I'll ask a person to clarify what they mean and then reinforce that there's a better word choice. Any important topic is either going to be sufficiently complex enough that to get anyway it will require :
> Time/attention a release from necessities and a hardcore focus on hashing it out...
This isn't small talk
> Be the case that both parties agree essentially and is quickly determined thus no need for conversation
or
> Be sufficiently complex/controversial that things get spicy
^None of this is small talk.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I've had some very meaningful interactions with people at gatherings that were casual conversations.




Casual conversations aren't small talk.

con·ver·sa·tion
/ˌkänvərˈsāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
a talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people, in which news and ideas are exchanged.

And again, there's something of value being exchanged.... Which is why it was 'meaningful'. There are shitty conversations and its usually when there is nothing of value exchanged. Casual conversations aren't shitty. They maintain the conversational exchange of value but in a casual capacity.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I'm unable to discriminate between a 3 hour conversation and 3 hours of small talk.




Conversations can last for 3 hours and length..
Small-talk is bursty/short and typically contains nothing of value.
It's typically held as a 'conversation starter'/lubricant for convo.. whereby a person 'feels' a person out to asses what is conversation worthy. Which is why I used strong language against it as it is common.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I guess small talk is when you don't want to talk to someone.




Yeah, small talk is when you're hearts not in it. You're doing it just to do it so you're not socially awkward or because you are... or maybe emotionally unstable and aren't able to handle a serious convo in an unemotional way or because you have nothing to talk about.. or many of the other reasons.

I'll give you an example.. I was at a party a friend invited me to and I typically float around having a jolly ol' time. Some chick start chit chatting me with small talk .. essentially to feel me out and get my story as to why I was friends with her friend. I knew this starting out and I was like oh god here we fucking go. So, she gets some general background on me but I made a statement that I left x,y,z because of the cost of living and taxes.. Ultimately this was her aim and I knew it, to assess what my income/job status was .. maybe because she either thought I wasn't of a sufficient background for the party or because she would become interested in me only if I met her standard... So the bullshit continued for a while until I said that which seemingly contradicted what I might of said before. So she says something smartass like (and she had some drinks) : Oh, you couldn't hack it there? So I reply, I could I just decided I wanted to coast and sit on my ass like most people do here instead.. call it early retirement. So, she asks what I do and I told her. Then I ask what she does.. What she does was beneath what I do by leagues and salary. So, I already knew this was going to be a shit show.. So she rebuffs me and declares she makes x,y,z.. I rebuff and made double and then I defined the reason she makes her money is because her industry is bullshit and prop'd up by artificial market forces that inflate her importance and salary.. Yeah, shit erupted at that point. Suffice to say, this is typically what's behind 'small talk' .. bullshit. I don't like. It feels ugly. The heart is in the wrong place. There's no true desire to listen or understand a person. It typically has shitty intent thus why genuine people dislike it. People who do it often think they're crafty but it is quite transparent.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Maybe I'd hate to talk to Albert Einstein at a party - but that's my problem. I'd be a fool to call Einstein an idiot because I couldn't relate to his ideas about physics.




Yeah well just like small talk is shitty...
Being that fucking guy who 'Einstein's' every convo is just as shitty...
So, like i said, the holy grail as is always is somewhere in between. You can't teach this rather it gets grounded out with intentful and aware convo and when you, as you said yourself truly, listen. It occurs in silence when you reflect on a convo and how it transpired... Eventually with time/practice you get good at all ranges of convo but will find yourself desiring that amazing middle ground. I can do small talk or Einstein. I prefer a higher middle ground convo. In business, profession... Hey, different rules.. higher level people have to do this to a functional focus to steer people and get desired results. That's an 'art in and of itself' but it is what it is : manipulative. Manipulation isn't bad. The only advice I have for people who have to do this in a work capacity is try if you can to be a 'normal' person outside of work socially... For your own sake to enjoy that human experience more. I know this may be hard but try not to get into a 'small talk' super casual conversation rut.
   
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Many people feel the world is full of shit and people are too (people lie, are manipulators, dishonest, are idiotic, deceitful, are judgmental) but I think that all comes with being human. We've all done it, so we need to avoid taking a seat on the diamond encrusted golden throne of self-righteous condemnation. When we see it in others, we need to remember to see it in ourselves. 




Yeah, I get that and get how I came off. I was aiming to talk beyond myself and even implicate myself as I often do but I said it to say : if people actually did what you put forth, the world would be a different place. It isn't and its more common to come across : (people lie, are manipulators, dishonest, are idiotic, deceitful, are judgmental)
If you socialize a lot. So, wake me up when you get the opposite. The reason for this is because people aren't aware as you think and actually don't spend enough time cultivating their own voice/views/beliefs or sentiments. So, in conversation, that comes out. Perfect example was the party example I gave. I read this chick like a book the minute she opened her mouth. I already knew where the shit was headed. I was just bored so let her run with it... How did I have this magic skill of 'seeing straight through her and the bullshit'? Easy, I've had lots of shitty conversations with shitty people. I actually spent alot of time and energy doing/taking action and learning and growing. Few bother themselves with it or even bother to develop themselves. This is a fact of life. Stating that isn't self righteous. Its a fact of observation.

Here man.. this song crystallizes it :

This movie was Gold :
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0333766/

People generally are shitty.. they just don't spend enough time on themselves to realize it because they're so busy running around like chicken heads in a rat race we can modern society...
Here man :
> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/america-has-a-big-loneliness-problem-2018-05-02
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2019/03/21/its-not-just-you-new-data-shows-more-than-half-young-people-america-dont-have-romantic-partner/

We live in a sick society man. If you don't see it, its because you're sufficiently asleep.
Any sufficiently aware or awake person sees this and has anxiety in early life.. until they figure out how to navigate this negativity. Once you do the anxiety subsides and you just have aversions as I outlined above. You avoid shitty people which often (you'll find if you do engage them) results in shitty convos, pointless small talk and/or emotional unstable argumentative conflicts.

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
I believe a lot of social anxiety is fear that has nothing to do with other people's behavior. The anxiety many people experience prior to a gathering - all of the self conscious "what if" type thinking that's rooted in fear... "What if I say something foolish?" type ruminations



Beyond a mental condition that's exactly what it relates to: The high chance of having shitty encounters. This is a perfectly rational psychological response to an undesired situation you haven't figured out how to avoid. If a person is a shitty NPC who never puts their heart or brain into conversation, ofc its a panacea to them. There's nothing invested. If you are a person who cares, who has true empathy, a brain, are aware.. etc etc nah man, typical social encounters drain the fuck out of you. Here :
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-secret-lives-introverts/201708/why-socializing-drains-introverts-more-extroverts

Anxiety can be rationally warranted until you figure out how to navigate away from undesired effects.
It is irrational when no such undesired effect exists.. this is typically trends into a medical/mental issue and is a different conversation. For rationally resulted anxiety (your going to feel drained and have shitty experiences), as a person matures and experiences the bullshit head on they typically become skilled and avoiding the anxiously by avoiding shit people/convos and or learning how to cut them short or take a piss at a fucker who takes a piss at them. Still its tiresome.

It's 2020, people socialize all day long all over the place .. online you name it. Even the 'wierd dork' bullshit was overblown back in the day.. put them in a room full of intellects and they blossom. Put them in a room of shithead idiots and they clam up. Not because of what you outlined but because they realize i'm in a room full of lowiq shitheads... I don't want to talk with them but have to.. and when I do I know its going to be shitty.. and if I let slip that I am on to them they are going to flip out and it could get violent. What rational person who hasn't figured out how to navigate this nor can avoid this wouldn't feel anxious?

Take the party example I gave you.. prior me would have been having a panic attack..
Instead, I knew this @#!* was up to and decided to troll the shit out of her. I essentially learned how to spin the negative bullshit back on people and watch them melt.. That was young me though.. I've learned it is better for me and them to just avoid it all together.

So, not trying to put myself on a pedestal.. I'm a nobody and a piece of shit I remind myself to stay humble. However, nah man.. this world especially in modern times is socially/societally fucked and it aint normal/healthy. All of the links I provided point to this. Introverts/aware people see this plainly.. extroverts who are always bullshitting and filling the air with their commentary rarely do. So, guess who thrives in this shitty environment and guess who has aversions to the status quo? Guess who often has anything of true value to offer? Who does and why one is drained while the other is not. Give and take...

Most people are takers.. rarely giving .. rarely coming from the heart.
I wish the world was different. I tried painfully for years. I'm done w/ that though.
Ultimately i don't fill man will change. I do feel with technology changing up the dynamics that they will.
Can't bullshit a fact based entity that doesn't bullshit.
Maybe this is where mankind will finally grow the fuck up and get beyond the bullshit that separates us. Maybe mankind won't. Choice is in humanity's hands though...

:closecall:
I'm exhausted from this..

:bashful:
Think i'm going to go rub my mind clean...


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: laughingdog]
    #26416835 - 01/04/20 11:05 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Some people are naturally friendly. And they often had a happy childhood. They expect to be liked and others pick up on it.
Others had a miserable childhood, much of the time, and they no longer expect to be liked, just for themselves,  and others pick up on it.

Just calling this complex phenomenon 'anxiety', & thinking its simple, and that 'the cure' is also simple, seems to miss the mark.

Abuse is not a joke. Unfortunately one demonstration of this maybe the mass shootings.



Not everything can be explained by arm chair psychology.
Not everything traces to some foolishness from someone's childhood.
Happiness is a state of mind. People can be brought up in the 'happiest' childhood and be a crazy nutbag.. Actually, if you look closely that's been a number of people who were... People don't end up wound to tight when not exposed to a diverse range of experiences/people/environments..

Giving someone a silver-spoon is just as bad as abusing them. Actually, it is abuse.
As you become an adult, you take control over your life. Time to stop explaining shit through your childhood and grow the fuck up.

Ultimately, a lot more people in the west have this problem because there is so much babying and a lack of accountability. There's always an 'excuse' for being shitty or doing shitty thing and its always someone else. Nah, its you choosing to be who you are daily.

I was bullied and picked on. What I learned was that the people who do it are low iq, low confidence, shitbag, losers. Why let such people get to me? They're nobodies and losers. So I learned to let it go. I even at some point counseled some once they no longer could 'beat me up physically' and i beat some of their asses... why? because they were the ones in a dark place projecting it on others. But in general, this is the world and society which is why sufficiently good people have anxieties about it. Being a good person in life isn't easy because so many people aren't.

And stop making excuses... Be accountable and find the inner happiness and peace. Nobody owes you it. If someone did something fucked up to you in your past, learn from it and grow. You're still here and alive right?

Quote:


Muh happy childhood !!!




No offense but this is an ethnic meme from a group of people whose fucked up kids often do the wild and depraved things in the world. You want your kid to have a good chance of being a good person? Give them a real upbringing, expose them to different culture, people, talk with them, spend time with them, love them.. etc. Few people actually do this especially in modern times which is why you have so many drugged up tatt'd up degenerates running around in their crucial development years trying to find themselves. Everybody's busy chasing the all might dollar and 'social progress' as opposed to realizing that's not happiness nor life. You want to live life? Be good and normal? Make sacrifices.. have empathy.. devote your time to something that doesn't benefit you.. Give instead of take. talk to your neighbors. do introspection. Think before you talk. Be willing to change. Be open minded. That's the antithesis of modern happiness.

Kids don't even have a childhood anymore in this society..




And that's thank to few adults.
Clown world man


sick world and sick societies lead to damaged kids.
parent's don't raise kids anymore.. society/media/internet does.

So i restate, what sensible aware person wouldn't have an anxiety towards this.
To a kid with such an awareness they must think they're in hell
:canthelpbutlaugh:

Eventually they learn, a lot of people are and its best to avoid them.
Anxiety goes away then. It's that simple.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26416941 - 01/05/20 01:56 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Jesus Root, I love you and your posts dude but please tell me you're not wasting all your daily brain power HERE vs writing a book on this shit! :cool:


--------------------



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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26417258 - 01/05/20 09:57 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

how is this
Quote:

So, not trying to put myself on a pedestal.. I'm a nobody and a piece of shit I remind myself to stay humble. However, nah man.. this world especially in modern times is socially/societally fucked and it aint normal/healthy. All of the links I provided point to this. Introverts/aware people see this plainly.. extroverts who are always bullshitting and filling the air with their commentary rarely do. So, guess who thrives in this shitty environment and guess who has aversions to the status quo? Guess who often has anything of true value to offer? Who does and why one is drained while the other is not. Give and take...



different from this
Quote:


Take the party example I gave you.. prior me would have been having a panic attack..
Instead, I knew this @#!* was up to and decided to troll the shit out of her. I essentially learned how to spin the negative bullshit back on people and watch them melt.. That was young me though.. I've learned it is better for me and them to just avoid it all together.




does it mean you are no longer young and easily threatened, or does it mean that you are threatening and no longer young? is it about extraverts and introverts, are you one and not another, on a pedestal or humble? you offer so many angles in a single (albeit lengthy) post that I am having difficulty following.

I would tend to agree that writing a book, integrating your links and summarized Eureka's will be an excellent exercise, and a good opportunity to present a unified theory outside of the context of defensive small talk waste. (if you think it is a waste, which I am not sure it is or even if you think it is).


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman] * 1
    #26417295 - 01/05/20 10:28 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
does it mean you are no longer young and easily threatened,




When you're young and haven't learned how to navigate away from the things that trigger social anxiety or deal with them constructively, you have 'social anxiety'. As you get older and find solutions you just have aversions and knowledge of what are shitty people and shitty exchanges and avoid them and/or while being present in one, know how to mitigate it.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is it about extraverts and introverts, are you one and not another,




I'm moreso an introvert. I feel that extroversion is bullshit thus understanding it can do it on command but prefer not to. I have social aversions. Social interaction can drain me even if I remain in it passively because unlike others I am able to see in detail the intent and heart of people conversing. So, I often abstain. I can put on a show of extroversion but I still am drain as I introspect as to the nature of my own heart and others actively in exchanges.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
on a pedestal or humble?




I am humble and I humble others. I am above no one and no one is above me. World is flat. I don't put anyone on a pedestal including myself. This isn't as easy a concept as it appears.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you offer so many angles in a single (albeit lengthy) post that I am having difficulty following.




Thus is the nature and state of a flat perspective in which one removes themselves from it.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I would tend to agree that writing a book, integrating your links and summarized Eureka's will be an excellent exercise, and a good opportunity to present a unified theory outside of the context of defensive small talk waste. (if you think it is a waste, which I am not sure it is or even if you think it is).




People have told me this several times in different capacities... Why is this?
If it is fruitful, aren't you appreciative of this. What is this reaction that makes you say : "Send it wider?"

Hmmm and here too :
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Jesus Root, I love you and your posts dude but please tell me you're not wasting all your daily brain power HERE vs writing a book on this shit! :cool:





Explain this to me and why this comes to your mind. What does writing a book achieve? Or trying to go more mainstream/push a range of my thinking into the world more deeply do? Won't this remove my ability to speak more freely and take the heat off the message? Who would be my audience except for the very people who my commentary would indict? If I go to a broader audience won't the chance heavily increase that the message gets out of control? That people will want to know 'who' the author is? Wouldn't this be bad for me? I dunno provide your thoughts on this. What makes you jump to a feeling of : Write a book... What's the more drawn out thinking behind this? I appreciate it.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26417364 - 01/05/20 10:58 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

to be humble is to succeed



to be good and compassionate is to

advance one's bodhi-mind





we need to save it/make it finer

by realizing the folly and negative detracting of destruction and being mean

with simple things

taking care of the garden and practicing being kind

when will the whole world know that it is always like being on lsd!

adjust your expectation to finer pushing people in a good way


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Ferdinando]
    #26417395 - 01/05/20 11:15 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
to be humble is to succeed



to be good and compassionate is to

advance one's bodhi-mind





we need to save it/make it finer

by realizing the folly and negative detracting of destruction and being mean

with simple things

taking care of the garden and practicing being kind

when will the whole world know that it is always like being on lsd!

adjust your expectation to finer pushing people in a good way




The infinite is composed of both good and bad and all such things in a lattice.
The whole world should never know what it is like being on LSD less you want to bring to bear an amplified portion of both good and bad. Many don't know the true nature of their creation or this universe mainly because they don't bother themselves to know it. You can't take a pill to know/understand this. You can to get a 'window into it' and sometimes that can be dangerous.

You speak from a more enlightened understanding which is valid for your current state and if a person sufferings along the path towards it but it most certaintly doesn't scale to those who don't. After one passes through the stage of utopic/positive/nervana enlightenment, they are prepared and ready for the next stage which exposes the more chaotic and raw nature of creation and the comsos. In this state, "good" and "bad" exist equally as do a number of things. They can be composed into things and thus is the nature of 'creation'.

One strives and wants to be surrounded by good but recognizes the purpose and place of bad.
Nothing is simple. Tis a bad/evil thing to suggest this to a person and placate their sensibilities.
Tis a disservice to their development. Somethings as you state yourself are bad and they deserve fitting language and descriptors. When bad things are ignorantly magnified in the world, the act deserves mean and strong language and towards more true enlightenment one grasps that. For there is yet another level beyond 'nirvana'. Not all is peaches and cream as you can already see.


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26417433 - 01/05/20 11:42 AM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Ochy has me On Ignore. :shrug:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26417471 - 01/05/20 12:18 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

when you write
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
redgreenvines
said:
on a pedestal or humble?




I am humble and I humble others. I am above no one and no one is above me. World is flat. I don't put anyone on a pedestal including myself. This isn't as easy a concept as it appears.




I am seeing a paradigm that relies a great deal on pedestals.
pedestal detection
pedestal disruption
pedestal ointments for blossoming blemishes
and special pedestal diets to prevent any unsightly pedestals from popping up later.
hopefully others will manage their own unsightly self importance outbreaks.

this can be brutal until all the puss settles.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26417491 - 01/05/20 12:31 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
when you write
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
redgreenvines
said:
on a pedestal or humble?




I am humble and I humble others. I am above no one and no one is above me. World is flat. I don't put anyone on a pedestal including myself. This isn't as easy a concept as it appears.




I am seeing a paradigm that relies a great deal on pedestals.
pedestal detection
pedestal disruption
pedestal ointments for blossoming blemishes
and special pedestal diets to prevent any unsightly pedestals from popping up later.
hopefully others will manage their own unsightly self importance outbreaks.

this can be brutal until all the puss settles.




You're speaking of the earlier stage  with personal ego and force involved as opposed to an arrived atconsistent perspective.

At the later stage, if a person or self attempts to render a pedestal, as the arrived at 'reality' is that there aren't any, it simply doesn't register or render. There's no entrenched effort to do this. It's just a 'reality' you either see with enough understanding and exist in or don't. You're speaking a lot about the run-up work to such a reality. I'm speaking of a total and unconscious grasp of it after-the-fact.

Any sufficiently powerful concept/perspective requires work and complexities that seemingly are contradictory and self-defeating. You either wade through this and get to something more promising, have zero awareness it's even possible, or continue to toy with framings at step 1. I can't give detail to what lies on the other end that appeases someone at step 1 or has no awareness, it clearly just goes right past you... namely because your ego can't let go of your current paradigm which is that ego is driving everyone's commentary including your own.

What is being stated is either true or false. The minute you start focusing on the messenger as opposed to the message is your own declaration of your ego and your projections from it. This is the beginning of lies you tell yourself to avoid something which you are uncomfortable with grasping.


Edited by r00tcmplx (01/05/20 02:30 PM)


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26418060 - 01/05/20 05:59 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

so there is always a message, even if it is a medium of pedastles.

is it an invitation to a party, or you got mail?


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26418088 - 01/05/20 06:15 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so there is always a message, even if it is a medium of pedastles.




Most definitely and especially.. I personally like individual spring coils for cases when I want a nice contour to the curved bits.


Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is it an invitation to a party, or you got mail?




We can approach it from both ends if you like...
:bashful:


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26418332 - 01/05/20 08:20 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

party on a mattress it is
from small talk to gang bang in 4 easy posts.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26418358 - 01/05/20 08:33 PM (4 years, 24 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
party on a mattress it is
from small talk to gang bang in 4 easy posts.




I told you.. in depth conversations is where its at.
:nicesmile:


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: laughingdog]
    #26418503 - 01/05/20 10:24 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Just calling this complex phenomenon 'anxiety', & thinking its simple, and that 'the cure' is also simple, seems to miss the mark.




Of course I didn't invent the term anxiety. We use terms to describe various disturbing emotions. I haven't spoken about a "cure" for this experience - more of a curiosity about it's nature and the psychological motivations involved. There may be 50 different reasons a person engages in stress prior to and during a social event. There might be 7 reasons. Or 2. I never assume an issue is complex without evidence that supports that assumption. Many people assume complexity - often for no reason. 

For me, social anxiety has always been a boundary violation. When I choose to focus on speculating about other people's thoughts, opinions, and perceptions about me, I break 2 boundaries - mine and theirs. 


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26418648 - 01/06/20 01:20 AM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:
Explain this to me and why this comes to your mind. What does writing a book achieve? Or trying to go more mainstream/push a range of my thinking into the world more deeply do? Won't this remove my ability to speak more freely and take the heat off the message? Who would be my audience except for the very people who my commentary would indict? If I go to a broader audience won't the chance heavily increase that the message gets out of control? That people will want to know 'who' the author is? Wouldn't this be bad for me? I dunno provide your thoughts on this. What makes you jump to a feeling of : Write a book... What's the more drawn out thinking behind this? I appreciate it.




Granted you're only on here once a day for a period - I feel like your posts are exceptionally thorough and well said, and only the people on Shroomery read them. Pearls before swine, so to speak to a degree. I have several books published under my real name that I'll never, ever share here unfortunately. I took that advice from someone years back (just write books you're good at writing stop spending time with people online exclusively chatting about deep topics- more need to read this shit), and it changed my life.

It's not the end result of a book; it's the medium of reaching more people than exclusively come here, IF that's your thing. I think you have that potential. You might feel Shroomery is fine, which is fine! :cool:.


--------------------



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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26418683 - 01/06/20 02:35 AM (4 years, 23 days ago)

I have heavily over the years owing to a severe shyness. Your principles are correct and actually date back to a book written many years ago: How to Win Friends and Influence People. The key to being a good conversationalist isn't in being witty or making charming jokes, it's literally in asking questions and engaging with them about their answers. I also agree that small talk is not insignificant, it's actually hugely important in building relationships and can grow into something engaging.

I believe a lot of people hate small talk for the reasons you mentioned and in many cases, that same reason is really just a low self-esteem. Those who feel like they're boring, worthless, creepy etc. are a lot less inclined to ask questions.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26418806 - 01/06/20 06:43 AM (4 years, 23 days ago)

microplastics before swine, not exactly real pearls.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26419133 - 01/06/20 11:17 AM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Granted you're only on here once a day for a period - I feel like your posts are exceptionally thorough and well said, and only the people on Shroomery read them. Pearls before swine, so to speak to a degree. I have several books published under my real name that I'll never, ever share here unfortunately. I took that advice from someone years back (just write books you're good at writing stop spending time with people online exclusively chatting about deep topics- more need to read this shit), and it changed my life.

It's not the end result of a book; it's the medium of reaching more people than exclusively come here, IF that's your thing. I think you have that potential. You might feel Shroomery is fine, which is fine! :cool:.




Ah', I type really fast.. 82-85 WPM. When I go to do one of my posts, I sometimes already have the thought completed and it just flows off my fingers. Thank you for elaborating on your point. It is a good point. One I thought of taking up but have seen too many serious truth seekers/declarers of truth crucified for doing so. I am not a fan of censorship to any degree and the things I say often would or to the degree I say them would have to be if I went more mainstream. Then there's the 'correctness' of how I structure them, etc etc. Too much effort vs just letting my thoughts flow off my fingers from time to time AND getting feedback from it .. The feedback is the crucial part. I learn and grow from it no matter if its good or bad.. crappy or a pearl... Because I am always listening and trying to understand. I had to think on this into this new year because I largely have gathered pearls over the years and its getting repetitive the feedback. In that though, I had to reflect on what my real work was and how to stay 'in that' always. Once I recaptured this, I was able to go back and participate in lessor capacities in some of the social online communities I am a part of. I definitely slimmed them into the new year. Deleted/closed out accounts and blocked them in my hosts files... the whole nine yards. But there were some, to me that were still cool.

As for reaching the wider world, that ultimately is a goal of mine and is related to what I am working on. Reflecting on that, that will be enough. My honest opinion is that man, given their free-will, won't change. Technology though can change that and usher in progress. So, I focus there. I think there is enough information and books to wrap around the world. Most are just not reading them/not understanding them/not implementing them. Technology can though and will.

So, progress will occur. That make sense? I too recognize your efforts and do agree that authoring formal material to wider audiences achieves a similar goal. Mine just involves spicy code.. And in order to not become a tech prune, one must mix it up. Gotta bounce my wild ideation off people.. See if I'm on target.
:nicesmile:


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26419259 - 01/06/20 12:43 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

a motivating interest is revealed,
dream to code the new web so that it virally alters humanity, all of whom are asleep to their true natures, anyway (resistance is futile), and so they will be easy to herd into coded and preferred (self affirming) pathways.

deus ex machina reverso affirmatto


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InvisiblePinkerton
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26419271 - 01/06/20 12:50 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

Ochy ignored me. What does it mean?


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Pinkerton]
    #26419322 - 01/06/20 01:28 PM (4 years, 23 days ago)

In "Games People Play" 'small talk" was unfavorably compared to intimacy.
And the late 1960s into the 1970s, with the "human Potential" movement glorified intimacy and self disclosure.

In tribal society of course everyone already knows everyone else, all the time.
And There is no sitting at the bus stop with strangers, or in waiting rooms, airports, train stations, in lines at every store....with hundreds of people you will never see again.

Different place, different custom.
No big deal.

Many people actually still do choose to live in smaller communities.

Different place, different custom.
No big deal.


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26420266 - 01/07/20 01:24 AM (4 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

r00tcmplx said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Granted you're only on here once a day for a period - I feel like your posts are exceptionally thorough and well said, and only the people on Shroomery read them. Pearls before swine, so to speak to a degree. I have several books published under my real name that I'll never, ever share here unfortunately. I took that advice from someone years back (just write books you're good at writing stop spending time with people online exclusively chatting about deep topics- more need to read this shit), and it changed my life.

It's not the end result of a book; it's the medium of reaching more people than exclusively come here, IF that's your thing. I think you have that potential. You might feel Shroomery is fine, which is fine! :cool:.




Ah', I type really fast.. 82-85 WPM. When I go to do one of my posts, I sometimes already have the thought completed and it just flows off my fingers. Thank you for elaborating on your point. It is a good point. One I thought of taking up but have seen too many serious truth seekers/declarers of truth crucified for doing so. I am not a fan of censorship to any degree and the things I say often would or to the degree I say them would have to be if I went more mainstream. Then there's the 'correctness' of how I structure them, etc etc. Too much effort vs just letting my thoughts flow off my fingers from time to time AND getting feedback from it .. The feedback is the crucial part. I learn and grow from it no matter if its good or bad.. crappy or a pearl... Because I am always listening and trying to understand. I had to think on this into this new year because I largely have gathered pearls over the years and its getting repetitive the feedback. In that though, I had to reflect on what my real work was and how to stay 'in that' always. Once I recaptured this, I was able to go back and participate in lessor capacities in some of the social online communities I am a part of. I definitely slimmed them into the new year. Deleted/closed out accounts and blocked them in my hosts files... the whole nine yards. But there were some, to me that were still cool.

As for reaching the wider world, that ultimately is a goal of mine and is related to what I am working on. Reflecting on that, that will be enough. My honest opinion is that man, given their free-will, won't change. Technology though can change that and usher in progress. So, I focus there. I think there is enough information and books to wrap around the world. Most are just not reading them/not understanding them/not implementing them. Technology can though and will.

So, progress will occur. That make sense? I too recognize your efforts and do agree that authoring formal material to wider audiences achieves a similar goal. Mine just involves spicy code.. And in order to not become a tech prune, one must mix it up. Gotta bounce my wild ideation off people.. See if I'm on target.
:nicesmile:




Mega-fast typer here as well. Makes total sense to me! :cool:


--------------------



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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26437903 - 01/17/20 06:31 AM (4 years, 12 days ago)

what if you are not being attacked?
what if no harm can come from the social situation?
what if you just relax a bit and look around?


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26439451 - 01/18/20 12:26 AM (4 years, 11 days ago)

I know it litterally took Armageddon to cure my social anxiety..

To be honest.. the world is allot more fun when your outgoing.

There is just that many less barriers to a good time..


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26439984 - 01/18/20 10:31 AM (4 years, 11 days ago)

Confronting fear is never easy.

But if not confronted, it seems, it usually doesn't go away on its own.

Hence a famous quote:

“A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.”

― William Shakespeare, Julius Caesar


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26440869 - 01/18/20 09:45 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Does anyone have any experience judging whether psilocybin mushrooms disrupt one's ability to learn the art of conversation (because it makes them quite dull), or does psilocybin facilitate the learning of the art of conversation? Does using psilocybin  lead to better social skills or worse social skills or no change at all?

I'm leaning towards worse. What is you guy's observation?


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26440983 - 01/18/20 11:43 PM (4 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

oliverblackk said:

So I personally, suffer from social anxiety I incredibly awkward I cannot flow a conversation. I usually find myself stuttering and feeling very uncomfortable.




Do you notice thoughts about the situation while you feel uncomfortable? Does this occur with everyone you interact with or only certain people?


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26441077 - 01/19/20 02:09 AM (4 years, 10 days ago)

OP, when was your last trip, of any chemical variety? Serious question!


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Hartford]
    #26443006 - 01/20/20 11:22 AM (4 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Does anyone have any experience judging whether psilocybin mushrooms disrupt one's ability to learn the art of conversation (because it makes them quite dull), or does psilocybin facilitate the learning of the art of conversation? Does using psilocybin  lead to better social skills or worse social skills or no change at all?

I'm leaning towards worse. What is you guy's observation?




There are drugs that often promote conversation. The quality of the conversation is another matter! Whether anyone would recommend them is also another matter!
3 in the order of how well known they are:
Alcohol
Cocaine
Kava kava

http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/small-talk-socializing.16391/
Seems an interesting thread. Especially the comment by 'fait'.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=kava+kava%2C+conversation&t=h_&ia=web

And of course, heroin (& other opiates etc.) may make one indifferent,
after all, with zero anxiety, who cares, one way or the other?
At that point its all the same.



also for the sake a little more completeness, possibly Ecstasy (MDMA ,3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine), which maybe dangerous.
https://www.drugs.com/illicit/ecstasy.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDMA


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: laughingdog] * 2
    #26444697 - 01/21/20 11:34 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26444967 - 01/21/20 06:56 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:

OP, when was your last trip, of any chemical variety? Serious question!




My psychedelic period was '85 - '95. My last few trips were at Dead shows, just before Jerry passed. So very grateful for those experiences. My primary growing years were 2000-2010. I probably grew 15 pounds of Tasmanian, B+, and Australian. Last year I was feeling low and stuck wallowing in the doldrums and wanted to trip because I knew it would help me snap out of it. My buddy has a big bag I gave him 5 years ago (when I gave away my lab equipment to a friend and taught him to grow) but I never made the 2 hour drive to pick some up.

How about you? Did you eat some fresh caps for breakfast Loaded Shaman?

RJ


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26445562 - 01/22/20 02:46 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Assuming this is true, Mr. D Green, why does it cause anxiety for some, but not others, in your view?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26445836 - 01/22/20 08:40 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Is that even possible? If someone is trying to be anything, that is what they are, no?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: laughingdog]
    #26446106 - 01/22/20 10:49 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Assuming this is true, Mr. D Green, why does it cause anxiety for some, but not others, in your view?




It is human basics..being a human 101.
The only people who do not get social anxiety are the ones who are not acting, people pleasing, trying to blend in/fit it; w/e you want to call it. Choking your self...that is anxiety. Understand?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26446112 - 01/22/20 10:52 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

I don't understand. Who are these people you are referring to? Are you one of them? Are you free of anxiety?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #26446116 - 01/22/20 10:53 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Is that even possible? If someone is trying to be anything, that is what they are, no?




Your self is not anything...it is you. And you just answered your own question, you used the word trying...trying to be anything. If someone is trying to be something, it is obvious that they are not..


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26446119 - 01/22/20 10:54 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

I mean what they are is trying... not that they are what they are trying to be :smile:

It's weird for me to imagine someone not trying. Sounds really depressed and the opposite of free from anxiety. They sound imprisoned by anxiety IMO


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #26446123 - 01/22/20 10:56 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I don't understand. Who are these people you are referring to? Are you one of them? Are you free of anxiety?





What is not to understand. I already said it, anyone who is not trying to be anything; anyone who is simply just being I. There is such a thing as thinking too much...


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OfflineMr. D Green
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #26446131 - 01/22/20 10:59 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I mean what they are is trying... not that they are what they are trying to be :smile:

It's weird for me to imagine someone not trying. Sounds really depressed and the opposite of free from anxiety. They sound imprisoned by anxiety IMO





I understand, and for I; the word try is depressing...I just do, I do not try. Understand?


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26446135 - 01/22/20 11:01 AM (4 years, 7 days ago)

nope -- I've heard this kind of regurgitation before and I think it's trying to be mystical without being mystical :shrug:

I think radical self acceptance entails accepting that we often want to be other than we are. I also think it entails accepting that self acceptance isn't a one and done type of event. That each of us will experience events, circumstances, trials and tribulations that push us in unique ways. That our emotions will envelope us in different ways over time. And that assuming one is a master is a sure way to fail at putting in the work required for mastery.

As an aside, some of the most anxiety I have felt is in the moments before being true to myself. It's a difficult choice to make in some social circumstances. Anxiety provoking. And while I prefer to be true it isn't always the case. But I don't have social anxiety due to the times I wasn't skilled enough to present a harsh truth without being willing to suffer the consequences of the presentation. I have social anxiety in those moments because of the stakes involved and what those stakes represent for the future of a relationship. Once the choice is made, the anxiety dissipates. The anxiety is informational.

IMO I have fairly healthy anxiety. Meaning anxiety which is based in realistic expectations and outcomes. This has been honed over time by trying multiple approaches when anxiety appears.

Another brief story about anxiety: When I was quite young a buddy of mine lit a hornet nest on fire and we ran as fast as we could. Not quick enough of course and each of us took multiple stings. I took a few right under my eyes and swelled up so that I could not see. This resulted in a strong anxiety response around bees and wasps for a lot of years. It took a shroom trip to really break me out of it. I was tripping balls in the woods with friends, middle of nowhere with no amenities for miles and miles. I was holding a sweet tea drink and wasps came from all over to the drink. It clicked so hard that all they wanted was the drink and not me. That they were not trying to defend anything but rather were exploring. So I stood there with maybe 20 wasps landing and collecting on the drink in my hand. Including wasps landing on my hand and crawling to the drink. Everyone around me scattered but there was a deep understanding at that moment of their behavior. So I just hung out with the wasps and let them drink, really watching the experience calmly. After a time I walked away from our camp and set the drink down so that my buddies panic would not result in an unfavorable outcome. Since then all of the prior overreactions around wasps and bees have dissipated. I am aware enough that I am allergic and will swell if stung, but I also am not afraid in most circumstances. If a hornet is provoked and protecting it's turf, you better believe I'm not going to go stand amidst it! That is my experience with most forms of axiety. It protects us but can get out of whack. 


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Kickle]
    #26448489 - 01/23/20 03:56 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Mr. D Green said:

Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Is that even possible? If someone is trying to be anything, that is what they are, no?




The ancient Greek aphorism "know thyself" seems pithy to some, but many find it to be the deepest most profound directive one can embrace. I've found it to be a incredibly difficult but fruitful journey. My long habitual history of being fake and wearing a façade is largely rooted in shame and self-loathing. I've been afraid to express my true self due to fear, which has deep roots. I've spent much of my life in a state of hiding and deception. 

Total self-acceptance has been a challenge for me. In part because there are so many layers of suffering, it's taken a lot to get to know who I am. 6 years ago, working with a therapist, I began to learn what I truly want in life. I felt embarrassed because I was so lost I did not even know the kind of food I enjoy and want to eat. It took me a year of work in therapy to be able to tell my friends I am an artist. I always thought they would laugh at me.

Unfortunately, we often talk about anxiety and depression as conditions instead of reactions - which have psychological causes and motivations. Just like road rage.


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26448913 - 01/23/20 07:56 PM (4 years, 6 days ago)

anxiety is kind of agitation, like an agitated state,
it can have chemical source and may have assoicative triggers strong memories with defensiveness, aversion, dread, apprehension, guilt or shame.

this can build or loop if the triggers are common in social situation - increasing the anxiety and amplifying the feelings from the bad memories.

see if you can remember the first awareness of the problem and revisit those memories calmly in private - I think this will lead to a more mature approach, one with less anxiety and more understanding of your self. Conversation can be more easy if one is not defensive.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26449948 - 01/24/20 12:42 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

anxiety is kind of agitation, like an agitated state . . .




That's insightful. Anxiety is often the manifestation of an inner conflict - the root of all neurosis. In the case of social anxiety, the conflict between who we truly are and the person we wish to be. All emotional disturbances are a form of agitation. The easiest to understand and appreciate is chronic anger and rage, but it's also a big factor when we depress ourselves.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: Mr. D Green]
    #26450248 - 01/24/20 03:49 PM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

Mr. D Green said:
Trying to be something your not...the source of all social anxiety..prove me wrong.




Assuming this is true, Mr. D Green, why does it cause anxiety for some, but not others, in your view?




It is human basics..being a human 101.
The only people who do not get social anxiety are the ones who are not acting, people pleasing, trying to blend in/fit it; w/e you want to call it. Choking your self...that is anxiety. Understand?




Yes I understand - I think there is something to what you say - but its not the whole story
1) folks in many professions lie, for a living.
Salesmen, lawyers, politicians, many business people, the CIA, Tobacco companies, etc.
2) of course criminals & conmen
....You might argue there is some sort of difference, between this type of deception and what you call 'being true to yourself' I suppose.
But ordinary folks also take it into their personal relationships:
3) folks having affairs
4) Parents and kids lie to one another
5) many social situations require some sort of deception
6) clothing is designed to deceive
7) people applying for jobs
etc....

So what needs to be explained is why some folks are prone to guilt, shame, & conscience and anxiety in this regard, and some are not - IMO.



"We're all hypocrites. Why? Hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind.

Robert Kurzban shows us that the key to understanding our behavioral inconsistencies lies in understanding the mind's design. The human mind consists of many specialized units designed by the process of evolution by natural selection. While these modules sometimes work together seamlessly, they don't always, resulting in impossibly contradictory beliefs, vacillations between patience and impulsiveness, violations of our supposed moral principles, and overinflated views of ourselves.

This modular, evolutionary psychological view of the mind undermines deeply held intuitions about ourselves, as well as a range of scientific theories that require a "self" with consistent beliefs and preferences. Modularity suggests that there is no "I." Instead, each of us is a contentious "we"--a collection of discrete but interacting systems whose constant conflicts shape our interactions with one another and our experience of the world.

In clear language, full of wit and rich in examples, Kurzban explains the roots and implications of our inconsistent minds, and why it is perfectly natural to believe that everyone else is a hypocrite."

from: " Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind" by Robert Kurzban

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Everyone-Else-Hypocrite-Evolution/dp/0691154392/ref=sr_1_2?crid=HBLT9ER4GTO1&keywords=why+everyone+else+is+a+hypocrite&qid=1579905831&sprefix=why+everyone%2Caps%2C291&sr=8-2


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26451106 - 01/25/20 02:16 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:

OP, when was your last trip, of any chemical variety? Serious question!




My psychedelic period was '85 - '95. My last few trips were at Dead shows, just before Jerry passed. So very grateful for those experiences. My primary growing years were 2000-2010. I probably grew 15 pounds of Tasmanian, B+, and Australian. Last year I was feeling low and stuck wallowing in the doldrums and wanted to trip because I knew it would help me snap out of it. My buddy has a big bag I gave him 5 years ago (when I gave away my lab equipment to a friend and taught him to grow) but I never made the 2 hour drive to pick some up.

How about you? Did you eat some fresh caps for breakfast Loaded Shaman?

RJ




Great post, thank you for sharing, RJ :sunny:.

My last trip was solstice in December. I go about once a year on average now. Seems to be the best rotation for my spiritual and philosophical breakthrough needs lol.


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety *DELETED* [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26464045 - 02/01/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by stevo

Reason for deletion: .


Edited by stevo (03/13/20 11:57 AM)


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OnlineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: The art of conversation and social anxiety [Re: stevo] * 1
    #26464887 - 02/02/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 11 months ago)

I suspect the human attention span in developed countries has shrunken dramatically over the last 20 years. It's an important point to consider regarding conversations. Maybe a good approach is to avoid long diatribes and stories - and allow follow-up remarks and questions to open the door for further elaboration. The skills of good follow-up questions really helps integrate a conversation and greatly deepens intimacy. You might share you're a 49ers fan. No biggie. But a follow up question could reveal how deeply you miss your (diseased) father and the wonderful memories of going to football games together.     


Nothing makes us so lonely as our secrets.

Paul Tournier


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