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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 59 minutes, 35 seconds |
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Quote: Complaining and negativity are cheap avenues to a sense of intimacy, but irritations and complaints do reveal some things about ourselves. Gossip fits in here somewhere. I've had 2 conversations recently where people complained about "small talk" and I was a bit baffled. One pregnant woman was complaining about going to a holiday party and having to do "small talk". But then I asked her a couple of questions about her pregnancy and we had a nice chat about it for 5 minutes. I guess that doesn't qualify as "small talk" because the topic interests her? We all have our wheels of misery. One thing complaining does is open the door for others to join in and express their complaints. You know, the classic "bitch session" where people aren't really listening and are just waiting for a turn to spew their complaints. There's a sense of validity that can emerge after venting during a bitch session, but the sense of validity is rooted in a self righteous attachment to a viewpoint.
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,532 |
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keep up the good work in the coming year!
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Alive Again Registered: 11/10/05 Posts: 9,230 |
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Quote: Yes I think small talk is inconsequential talk, which is therefore boring. Also agree that an interesting aspect of complaining and other negative drama is that although it may be inconsequential to the listener, the spirit of the complaint is relevant, so it creates the incentive for a bitch session where two people are less concerned with what the other is saying and more concerned with how it's being said. It may convey a sense of intimacy but I think such comradery will have hard limits since there is no actual help being offered beyond the bad drama. Focusing on the bitcher with a offer of shared problem solving would provide real value and thus create real intimacy, yet such offers will often be rejected, often with angry feelings because the offer interrupted the game the bitcher was trying to play. Also common is ending up playing the "third hand" in a game where no solutions are found but the listener plays the part of sympathizer and validator. Some articles I've read suggest people primarily want validation for their feelings, yet getting stuck playing this part is also an impediment to intimacy it seems. And I agree, we all have our wheel of misery. The book suggests its possible to be "mostly game free" but offers no grand solutions. It is not a self help book but rather a book on social psychology. If one reads it expecting helpful tips at the end it will end rather abruptly. So, coming back to your actual topic, social anxiety would be a sign of the potential for real intimacy... or fresh victims, which is the reason people learn to avoid the vulnerability of intimacy and games are prevalent. -------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Youâre not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." âAyishat Akanbi
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Psychophysiologist Registered: 03/02/15 Posts: 8,006 Loc: Now O'Clock Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours |
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Quote: Most people's definition of "small talk" = "whatever I don't feel like talking about at the moment".
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,532 |
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the big stuff is about re-election! me me me me me
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Psychophysiologist Registered: 03/02/15 Posts: 8,006 Loc: Now O'Clock Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours |
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Quote: Assuming you were actually replying to my comment - are you speaking in regards to people projecting themselves through their political candidates?
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irregular verb Registered: 04/08/04 Posts: 37,532 |
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just basic immaturity models of behavior...
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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 59 minutes, 35 seconds |
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I was watching an interview with a mid-level movie actor who was talking about being on a set with Robert De Niro. The person was nervous about being around a huge screen icon and at one point casually brought up the subject of Trump. De Niro jumped on it and went off on a critical ramble and then treated the person as a good friend . . . So, depending on what you choose as small talk might be the difference in making a new friend, or not.
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Registered: 01/05/16 Posts: 4,178 Loc: South Africa |
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Sometimes talk is cheap and actions are more advantageous.
In my opinion bonds are formed most authentically through shared experiences. Not so much conversation alone. Personally, I find people who feel the need to talk all the time a little insecure. It's fun to sit in silence with someone. In fact I find this to be the pinnacle of a relationship. To be able to say nothing and be comfortable with the silence. I try not and 'read' people which is what a lot of people do when they say they are 'listening'. Sometimes words are just words. Sometimes sounds are just sounds. Words point to things but aren't things. However, words can lead you to various physical places and all you had to do was talk. Sometimes we talk about our ego all the time. Sometimes we talk about events and things. Sometimes we talk about ideas. Say nothing or say something doesn't matter. The comfort is only gone when you think silence or sound is strange. Some people want to press their agenda. Some people want to get in your pants. Sometimes you're not the one someone wants to talk to. Sometimes they're not the one you want to talk to. I thought I had social anxiety until I realized a lot of 'extroverted' people were just used to screaming and projecting their insecurities and not saying much else. What are we talking about again? Conversation is whatever in terms of he said she said. Conversation that leads to positive action is where it's at. Sometimes what we say is what we would like to be defined as. I'm telling you who I want to be or think I am. Then maybe giving you an indication of who I think you are, and vice versa. Really what's happening is we're all just a bunch of horny crazy space monkeys making sounds that point to abstract forms.
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Stranger Registered: 06/01/13 Posts: 4,216 Last seen: 6 hours, 30 minutes |
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I think anxiety happens because of fear of failure..
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Psychophysiologist Registered: 03/02/15 Posts: 8,006 Loc: Now O'Clock Last seen: 28 days, 5 hours |
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That's definitely a primary driving factor for almost all behavior avoidance: failure and/or death.
Actually, I think death is the automatic go to panic script for everything subconsciously.
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Stranger Registered: 06/01/13 Posts: 4,216 Last seen: 6 hours, 30 minutes |
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Wow, so death being a threshold is similar to falling asleep and getting lost in dreams..
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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"House" a TV show staring Hugh Laurie, is partly about someone who has no patience for 'small talk' and how phony a lot of it is. Its part of the humor. Because of course a lot of people are frustrated by it, yet can't escape it.
On the other hand, those who are good at it, can use it as a starting point and then perhaps lead the conversation where they wish. 'Clean Language' is one example of a methodology to increase ones ability to listen. 'Non-violent communication' is another interesting aspect of what can be done with communication. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Clean+ Edited by laughingdog (01/04/20 02:03 AM)
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Ultrasentient Registered: 02/26/19 Posts: 3,127 |
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Quote: Orgy has me On Ignore. I don't think he has ever ignored anyone before me. Links
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Stranger Registered: 02/19/18 Posts: 419 Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread and didn't weigh in over the time I saw it.
I guess because I thought like most conversations it would be about nothing.... I see that its not and that true thought is being put into it, so I'm going to weigh in a little later. I've had my experiences and observations over the years as I'm sure everyone has but I sacrificed greatly to get underneath the heart of a lot of conversation/interaction. Wonder if others share these reflections.. I will try to share this later. That being said, a lot of what is being stated is correct and different pieces of the puzzle. I will try to string it together and will be curious what people will have to say after. For now, I will leave a cliff hanger of sorts. I Promise you it will be worth it.. A scorcher; feel free to throw your best fire in the flame when it comes. I'm hope to stir up a spicy brew, ruffle some feathers, and bring out the MOST in people. Ultimately though, I want people to weigh in honestly on these reflections.. OK, until then.. going for a walk and eats.
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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 59 minutes, 35 seconds |
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Quote: I agree - nothing can take the place of shared experiences. But conversation can be a type of shared experience. If someone is rambling about the traffic or complaining about the weather, that's not intimacy. But if they are talking about guilty feelings associated with the relief a parent died, that's a different thing. Quote: Quote: I've worked on simply listening without adding my own commentary and offering solutions to people's problems. I find that's what people usually desire - to be listened to. So often when someone has "problems" we want to jump in, when that's usually not what's needed.
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Stranger Registered: 02/19/18 Posts: 419 Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Quote: Social aversion comes from the fact that a lot of people are full of shit, lie, are manipulators, dishonest, deceitful, are judgemental, and the list goes on and on. Whether they are aware or not. Whether they admit to it or not. Conversation is an art-form that partially masks this. A lot of people don't know much and don't have a high IQ. They simply don't have much to talk about because they don't spend time cultivating things beyond their experience. Experience is a given as a human being as are emotions. Everyone has them like assholes. Nobody's is unique. Nobody often times wants to hear long diatribes about them. Most people aren't honest about this. Conversation is usually to share ideas, knowledge, gain something. Most people are unaware. So, most conversations are a song and dance to obscure this. Your friend Donna isn't wrong in principle but like many are wrong in practice and wrong due to the reasoning/details because they simply don't trouble themselves enough to understand them because 'they're not interested'. I'm interested in a huge range of topics and I am always interested in learning/growing. Most people aren't. This is why people commonly aren't interested in 'conversation'. Small talk by definition is pointless bullshit which is why its called small-talk. No one is a fan of it as its by definition of waste of time. That being said, to a person of low IQ, nothing is small-talk whereas the higher in IQ you go, the more mundane bullshit is. Some people have a deep awareness of this but haven't figured out how to deal w/ it. This is what causes 'anxiety' without a medical diagnosis. It has very little to do w/ an individual with the aversion and everything to do with how society and people are around them when 'justified'. Ultimately they learn not to waste their time with idiots, emotionally unstable people, or other fruitless people w/ bad energy and centered on the above things and the anxiety subsides because there is no longer any negative forces driving it. They indeed and often find people they deeply engage with and enjoy the company of. No one in this modern age is a 'wierdo hermit'. This concept is a construction of bullshitters to justify a social norm that is artificial. Quote: I never had this issue so I can't relate. I always enjoyed conversation and am very good at it because I was always a good listener, have a lot of true empathy, and for some time was expanding my knowledge and experience throughout interacting with others. The skill is obtainable through focus/effort... The art is not. Few people have skills or art. People who do this in a fashion in which it didn't come natural nor was cultivated across experience often have a false sense of their acumen in it. They often are bullshit/business types/managers who had to do it to get ahead in their career/etc and thus are actually horrible at it or true intentions outside a working capacity. 3 hour conversations? That's usually how long my conversations used to last. This is what conversations are like. They're open ended, broad, and enjoyable such that time flies by. I don't do small talk. I hate it. I don't do gossip, it's negative and pointless. I am not a mainstream media person so I tend to have informed views. Most don't and I don't enjoy conversations with echo chambers or people who repeat common ideology from Mainstream media. If I wanted that I would glue myself to a TV. I do enjoy conversations with people from all walks of life who respect themselves enough to engage in depth in an experience and have deep things they can recount from it... Because in that I am exposed to a world I have never seen, belief, or information. People rarely have the experiences I just mentioned so rarely have anything of true value to speak of. Most people live in the village of society as NPCs and can only speak from such a limited experience. I used to engage such people for years until I understood the root of it. I don't anymore. So, unlike someone intentionally trying to craft 'social skills' which I don't believe is possible. It came to me through experience and spending time/concerted energy to actually practicing it at length with people from all walks of life. Most people don't as they often say, have time for that shit... So frankly, they don't develop 'real' social skills. They develop skills aligned with social norms which are often times 'bullshit'. They also do develop an a false sense of having social skills. You can't teach/train your heart to be in it. It's not cognitive. You're either putting your heart into something or you're not and the more you do is the more you develop the 'art'. Quote: Do you work on your social skills? No.. I have tons of direct experiences... that taught me lessons. I'm open minded and don't take things personal so I have all throughout my life 'listened' to people, give them comfort in knowing they can critique me as they place, and I always solicit advice. That simply results in a robust framing and understanding of social skills. Small-talk can be result of a person being small-minded and thus the only thing you're capable of. Small-talk can also be the result of a person being limited in their experience thus not having much to talk about. Small-talk can lastly be an attempt to fill the air with bullshit to pass time or attempt to get something more engaging talking. Small-talk is rarely a person who respected themselves enough to engage an experience deeply, understand it, experience it and thus have something of value t say. Conversation is when you actually have something of value to say which typically doesn't involve formality, time limits, argument (unless you're dealing with an idiot or someone who is emotionally unstable).. It's a flee-flowing enjoyable experience just like a beautiful trek in the woods. Most people don't know how to have actual conversation because of personal deficits which is why people who do have social aversions. Anxiety is just when a person hasn't figured out how to navigate this shitty world thus is in conflict with it with no solution. The solutions are plenty... The internet brought this out in people. This is why people go off into silo'd communities to engage enjoyable with like minds. Idiots tend to cultivate and hang around idiots. Intellects.. intellects.. spiritual people .. spiritual.. artist. artist. RARE is the case when there is a bustling community that combines all such people constructively. Don't know what to say. I can go on and on and welcome anyone to refute this. I'd love actually if more depth can be added to my observation. Ultimately, I've spent a lot of my life learning that a lot of things are bullshit. I don't care to engage them anymore. I do engage and enjoy people, experience, and things that are of depth or value... few are though. I am ok with this and have no anxiety/hangups. It is what it is. So, even in the rare occassion for instance when I get dragged into stupid or idiotic conversations and I let time lapse. I've learned to not ever be attached to it emotionally because by and large the other person isn't.. they're full of shit and have low awareness. I can't fix that. I can't 'show them the way'.. it has to be experienced directly and cultivated. So, I avoid such convos and people. They are after-all happy in their bubble. The bubble is wide and vast. Manager/business types like to believe they are PhD level psychologist and Grade A conversationalist and humanist. They aren't. Most of them are shit as they've never often humbled themselves or engage life/range of people enough to cultivate the skill through direct experience. They were indeed too busy trying to get that corner office to every truly understand people. Interviews, depending on the industry are shit for this reason. No one is ultimately trying to understand the candidate. They often don't listen to the candidate. They are not empathetic to the candidate. They aren't trying to see them for who they are. They are instead trying to judge them based on a bullshit rubric. The west has a shit sense of humanity/socialization in modern times. It is present a hellavuh lot more in other cultures. People do though fool themselves and shy away from convos that expose their bullshit. If managers, business people, executives were truly people persons, humanist, psychologist, sociologists beyond their ability to do mundane information passing, the world wouldn't be the way it is. Companies wouldn't be what they are. Interviews wouldn't be bullshit, etc etc. So nah man, the people with social anxiety tend to have it right. They just haven't found good solutions yet. When you do, you intelligently form social aversion. The anxiety gets put into productive filtering of bullshit/bullshiters. When that occurs, you realize the world is largely full of shit and people are too. Quite alright, is what it is. At such a point you aren't a bustling socialite. Instead, you thirst and long for the minority of people with actual social skills and cultivated experiences that can hold conversations. You at that point have realized the difference between bullshit and actual conversation. Socialization in a work capacity is often bullshit btw. People who are consumed by their work never live life enough beyond their job to realize this. However, its the truth. This is why management/executive types have it rough. They think their job's social standards are the real world. They're not. The idiots/NPCs are in a league of their own. Their convos consist of gossip, bullshit, MUH feels and a whole range of other fruitless garbage. In the middle as is often, is the 'sweet spot'. Few obtain it but everyone thinks they're minting gold. /RANT OFF
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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 59 minutes, 35 seconds |
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Quote: Can't small talk include important topics of value? I've had some very meaningful interactions with people at gatherings that were casual conversations. I'm unable to discriminate between a 3 hour conversation and 3 hours of small talk. I guess small talk is when you don't want to talk to someone. Maybe I'd hate to talk to Albert Einstein at a party - but that's my problem. I'd be a fool to call Einstein an idiot because I couldn't relate to his ideas about physics. Many people feel the world is full of shit and people are too (people lie, are manipulators, dishonest, are idiotic, deceitful, are judgmental) but I think that all comes with being human. We've all done it, so we need to avoid taking a seat on the diamond encrusted golden throne of self-righteous condemnation. When we see it in others, we need to remember to see it in ourselves. I believe a lot of social anxiety is fear that has nothing to do with other people's behavior. The anxiety many people experience prior to a gathering - all of the self conscious "what if" type thinking that's rooted in fear... "What if I say something foolish?" type ruminations
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Stranger Registered: 03/14/04 Posts: 4,828 |
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Some people are naturally friendly. And they often had a happy childhood. They expect to be liked and others pick up on it.
Others had a miserable childhood, much of the time, and they no longer expect to be liked, just for themselves, and others pick up on it. Just calling this complex phenomenon 'anxiety', & thinking its simple, and that 'the cure' is also simple, seems to miss the mark. Abuse is not a joke. Unfortunately one demonstration of this maybe the mass shootings.
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Stranger Registered: 02/19/18 Posts: 419 Last seen: 3 years, 11 months |
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Quote: Nope, not by definition : small talk /ËsmĂ´l ËtĂ´k/ noun polite conversation about unimportant or uncontroversial matters, especially as engaged in on social occasions. "propriety required that he face these people and make small talk" It's one of the three I highlighted above. This is based by its literal definition. I will accept that it's maybe used incorrectly but in that I'll ask a person to clarify what they mean and then reinforce that there's a better word choice. Any important topic is either going to be sufficiently complex enough that to get anyway it will require : > Time/attention a release from necessities and a hardcore focus on hashing it out... This isn't small talk > Be the case that both parties agree essentially and is quickly determined thus no need for conversation or > Be sufficiently complex/controversial that things get spicy ^None of this is small talk. Quote: Casual conversations aren't small talk. con¡ver¡sa¡tion /ËkänvÉrËsÄSH(É)n/ Learn to pronounce noun a talk, especially an informal one, between two or more people, in which news and ideas are exchanged. And again, there's something of value being exchanged.... Which is why it was 'meaningful'. There are shitty conversations and its usually when there is nothing of value exchanged. Casual conversations aren't shitty. They maintain the conversational exchange of value but in a casual capacity. Quote: Conversations can last for 3 hours and length.. Small-talk is bursty/short and typically contains nothing of value. It's typically held as a 'conversation starter'/lubricant for convo.. whereby a person 'feels' a person out to asses what is conversation worthy. Which is why I used strong language against it as it is common. Quote: Yeah, small talk is when you're hearts not in it. You're doing it just to do it so you're not socially awkward or because you are... or maybe emotionally unstable and aren't able to handle a serious convo in an unemotional way or because you have nothing to talk about.. or many of the other reasons. I'll give you an example.. I was at a party a friend invited me to and I typically float around having a jolly ol' time. Some chick start chit chatting me with small talk .. essentially to feel me out and get my story as to why I was friends with her friend. I knew this starting out and I was like oh god here we fucking go. So, she gets some general background on me but I made a statement that I left x,y,z because of the cost of living and taxes.. Ultimately this was her aim and I knew it, to assess what my income/job status was .. maybe because she either thought I wasn't of a sufficient background for the party or because she would become interested in me only if I met her standard... So the bullshit continued for a while until I said that which seemingly contradicted what I might of said before. So she says something smartass like (and she had some drinks) : Oh, you couldn't hack it there? So I reply, I could I just decided I wanted to coast and sit on my ass like most people do here instead.. call it early retirement. So, she asks what I do and I told her. Then I ask what she does.. What she does was beneath what I do by leagues and salary. So, I already knew this was going to be a shit show.. So she rebuffs me and declares she makes x,y,z.. I rebuff and made double and then I defined the reason she makes her money is because her industry is bullshit and prop'd up by artificial market forces that inflate her importance and salary.. Yeah, shit erupted at that point. Suffice to say, this is typically what's behind 'small talk' .. bullshit. I don't like. It feels ugly. The heart is in the wrong place. There's no true desire to listen or understand a person. It typically has shitty intent thus why genuine people dislike it. People who do it often think they're crafty but it is quite transparent. Quote: Yeah well just like small talk is shitty... Being that fucking guy who 'Einstein's' every convo is just as shitty... So, like i said, the holy grail as is always is somewhere in between. You can't teach this rather it gets grounded out with intentful and aware convo and when you, as you said yourself truly, listen. It occurs in silence when you reflect on a convo and how it transpired... Eventually with time/practice you get good at all ranges of convo but will find yourself desiring that amazing middle ground. I can do small talk or Einstein. I prefer a higher middle ground convo. In business, profession... Hey, different rules.. higher level people have to do this to a functional focus to steer people and get desired results. That's an 'art in and of itself' but it is what it is : manipulative. Manipulation isn't bad. The only advice I have for people who have to do this in a work capacity is try if you can to be a 'normal' person outside of work socially... For your own sake to enjoy that human experience more. I know this may be hard but try not to get into a 'small talk' super casual conversation rut. Quote: Yeah, I get that and get how I came off. I was aiming to talk beyond myself and even implicate myself as I often do but I said it to say : if people actually did what you put forth, the world would be a different place. It isn't and its more common to come across : (people lie, are manipulators, dishonest, are idiotic, deceitful, are judgmental) If you socialize a lot. So, wake me up when you get the opposite. The reason for this is because people aren't aware as you think and actually don't spend enough time cultivating their own voice/views/beliefs or sentiments. So, in conversation, that comes out. Perfect example was the party example I gave. I read this chick like a book the minute she opened her mouth. I already knew where the shit was headed. I was just bored so let her run with it... How did I have this magic skill of 'seeing straight through her and the bullshit'? Easy, I've had lots of shitty conversations with shitty people. I actually spent alot of time and energy doing/taking action and learning and growing. Few bother themselves with it or even bother to develop themselves. This is a fact of life. Stating that isn't self righteous. Its a fact of observation. Here man.. this song crystallizes it : This movie was Gold : https://www.imdb.com/title/tt033 People generally are shitty.. they just don't spend enough time on themselves to realize it because they're so busy running around like chicken heads in a rat race we can modern society... Here man : > https://www.marketwatch.com/stor > https://www.washingtonpost.com/l We live in a sick society man. If you don't see it, its because you're sufficiently asleep. Any sufficiently aware or awake person sees this and has anxiety in early life.. until they figure out how to navigate this negativity. Once you do the anxiety subsides and you just have aversions as I outlined above. You avoid shitty people which often (you'll find if you do engage them) results in shitty convos, pointless small talk and/or emotional unstable argumentative conflicts. Quote: Beyond a mental condition that's exactly what it relates to: The high chance of having shitty encounters. This is a perfectly rational psychological response to an undesired situation you haven't figured out how to avoid. If a person is a shitty NPC who never puts their heart or brain into conversation, ofc its a panacea to them. There's nothing invested. If you are a person who cares, who has true empathy, a brain, are aware.. etc etc nah man, typical social encounters drain the fuck out of you. Here : https://www.psychologytoday.com/ Anxiety can be rationally warranted until you figure out how to navigate away from undesired effects. It is irrational when no such undesired effect exists.. this is typically trends into a medical/mental issue and is a different conversation. For rationally resulted anxiety (your going to feel drained and have shitty experiences), as a person matures and experiences the bullshit head on they typically become skilled and avoiding the anxiously by avoiding shit people/convos and or learning how to cut them short or take a piss at a fucker who takes a piss at them. Still its tiresome. It's 2020, people socialize all day long all over the place .. online you name it. Even the 'wierd dork' bullshit was overblown back in the day.. put them in a room full of intellects and they blossom. Put them in a room of shithead idiots and they clam up. Not because of what you outlined but because they realize i'm in a room full of lowiq shitheads... I don't want to talk with them but have to.. and when I do I know its going to be shitty.. and if I let slip that I am on to them they are going to flip out and it could get violent. What rational person who hasn't figured out how to navigate this nor can avoid this wouldn't feel anxious? Take the party example I gave you.. prior me would have been having a panic attack.. Instead, I knew this @#!* was up to and decided to troll the shit out of her. I essentially learned how to spin the negative bullshit back on people and watch them melt.. That was young me though.. I've learned it is better for me and them to just avoid it all together. So, not trying to put myself on a pedestal.. I'm a nobody and a piece of shit I remind myself to stay humble. However, nah man.. this world especially in modern times is socially/societally fucked and it aint normal/healthy. All of the links I provided point to this. Introverts/aware people see this plainly.. extroverts who are always bullshitting and filling the air with their commentary rarely do. So, guess who thrives in this shitty environment and guess who has aversions to the status quo? Guess who often has anything of true value to offer? Who does and why one is drained while the other is not. Give and take... Most people are takers.. rarely giving .. rarely coming from the heart. I wish the world was different. I tried painfully for years. I'm done w/ that though. Ultimately i don't fill man will change. I do feel with technology changing up the dynamics that they will. Can't bullshit a fact based entity that doesn't bullshit. Maybe this is where mankind will finally grow the fuck up and get beyond the bullshit that separates us. Maybe mankind won't. Choice is in humanity's hands though... ![]() I'm exhausted from this.. Think i'm going to go rub my mind clean...
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