|
living_failure
unworthy



Registered: 06/13/19
Posts: 352
Loc: spain, madrid
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: r00tcmplx] 1
#26405785 - 12/29/19 06:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
your opinion is not at all supported, the texts you quoted have no values that proves your points.
there is no white conspiracy to make greek and romans more influential than they were to european culture, because they were.
If you want to discuss that European culture holds no meaning because roman empire was bigger than europe you are crazy.
I've never said or stated that roman empire was homogeneous and much less stated that Hellenistic philosophy was homogeneous... Of course, everyone knows that Alexander empire was specially heterogeneous.
Now, thinking that old greek philosophy was influenced by buddhist thought is a risky claim.
In order to prove things historically, one must search for historic clues and texts, otherwise one might fall in "legends says". And, without historically validation, you just hold a bullshit opinion which might be true or false but nobody knows.
I have a lot of bullshit opinions, or opinions just based on rationality, but i don't pretend them to be prove by just a google search linking wikipedia void articles and reddit, omg.
|
Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 6 days, 22 hours
|
|
I think he blocked you dude...
One less underaged user who thinks they're smarter than everyone. Guy reads one wikipedia article about Etruscans and then tells everyone the world is a lie lol.
--------------------
|
kitten6
hiker

Registered: 05/13/19
Posts: 96
Loc: UK 0161
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
|
|
i think you misunderstand, we're not trying to downplay the role of the Greeks in European culture, we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now if it weren't for the Greeks. It was Greek ideas that served as a basis for the time of questioning that was the renaissance. And the Greeks with their illustrations and explanations giving rise to the scientific method which we claim to be responsible for all the crazy advancements we've been making in the past hundred - hundred and fifty years.
But in terms of actual philosophical thought and teachings, what we're actually talking about is the possibility that their philosophies originated from the other side of the silk road. The travelling Greek philosophers would come back to Greece write a few books and start a school. Who knows where their ideas came from. The Greeks aren't famed for their meditation in fact, I've heard things about the Greeks putting trippy shit into their wine, maybe that's where they get their inspiration from. In the East they didn't need to drink trippy wine, they meditated and focused on purity, they would silence themselves and find the answers deep within.
The Greeks were the ones who put truth up for debate, and I think that was one of their biggest mistakes. The Greeks wrote their books and debated and in the end they were taken over by Rome, the debate ended abruptly, not that it was ever going to end anyway. And in the end the books of the Greeks were translated redistributed throughout Europe by Rome, the unfinished works of the most famous philosophers that had too much pride, blown all around Europe and once the Romans converted to Christianity as did the Greeks on their downfall, the books were stored in monastic libraries. Monasteries were the sacred place of healing and discovery during the dark ages, monasteries were the healthcare practice, nuns and monks were taught Hippocrates and Galen, which became dogmatic practices, until the renaissance.
The renaissance was the point of breakthrough for Greek dogmas, bringing us out of the dark ages. The Greeks taught us how to advance, but only held us back when it came down to actually advancing.
|
living_failure
unworthy



Registered: 06/13/19
Posts: 352
Loc: spain, madrid
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: kitten6]
#26406543 - 12/29/19 03:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yea kitten, but i honestly believe you and the other guy are not on the same boat.
You are just looking for information to prove if your idea is true or false. He just spitted that it was not only true, but that the history as we know it was false...
The problem with the silk road idea, it is that is unlikely that greeks didn't write about any buddhist fella while they write about anyone discussing about virtue or about the truth.
There is however, the remote possibility that it was burned during the fall of Alexandria.
I however, find more rational to believe that the similarities between early buddhism (i really need to find more about early buddhism after you quoted it) and stoicism is based because it is a rationalization of an emotional response. The response of trying to remain calm and in control in troublesome situations.
I in no case mean that that is everything stoicism is about, but that it is indeed what i find the most logical explanation of the emotional cause for it. Being the fact that it is rational and logical what makes it viable.
|
kitten6
hiker

Registered: 05/13/19
Posts: 96
Loc: UK 0161
Last seen: 14 hours, 52 minutes
|
|
Yes early buddhism was not so much a religion, everything begins small, but buddhism outgrew its early roots in order to benefit the many people who decided to turn to buddhism after guatama.
Buddhism like taoism or any eastern philosophy outlines the duality that is in the nature of all things. There is an opposite to everything and it is the balance between the two extremes that allows one to move forward, neutrality and spirituality in all situations. Guatama called it the middle way,
To calm the oscillations and ripples in the puddle that is your mind and when it is finally completely calm, you will be able to see yourself clearly in the reflection. And when you can see yourself at the deepest level, you can forget yourself and move on to other things, the understanding and satisfaction of your irrationality becomes a novelty. Pure sanity and rationale, the ability to remain unclouded without ripples in the most stressful of situations, the key is to see through stress and let your mind become more flexible to work around anything.
That is stoicism i guess, and also quoted from early Buddhist teachings. The main difference between stoicism and the early Buddhist teachings is that stoicism is actually beneficial to living in the modern world and dealing with the daily issues of today. Stoicism will help you deal with the short term feelings and issues, short term stress. Allowing you to overcome hurdles that otherwise your emotions would stop you from overcoming.
Stoicism doesn't go as far as to address the dreams and wants of mortals. Th long term stress factors in life, dreams, goals. The path of enlightenment in Buddhism is the preparation for immortality. When you are enlightened you are not reincarnated you remain above in the heavens, you become an observer from higher dimensions, time becomes a mountain range. You watch from above you lose your weight you become weightless.
Edited by kitten6 (12/29/19 03:57 PM)
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: kitten6]
#26415465 - 01/04/20 02:41 AM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
The Spartans were stoics. Seems it generally goes along with any military culture as its related to suppressing feelings, which helps when you're killing and torturing people. There is nothing particularly 'Buddhist' about stoicism. In meditation feelings are allowed and not suppressed, just neither acted upon or clung to or avoided. Noted, experienced, & released; just another temporary manifestation or passing changing perception.
Also your notion of immortality and Buddhism is way off the mark. Not sure where you picked up this idea. On the contrary Anatta is one of the foundational ideas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatta
There are many versions & distortions of Buddhism just as there are among other Religions. For example Mormons vs Rattlesnake handlers in Texas, etc.
Anatta however is found in the earliest texts we have as regards Buddhism.
As the name "the Roman EMPIRE" shows it was a military enterprise (as does any map of its extent), and as such it was counter to the principles and teaching of Buddhism.
Of course like Jesus reform of Judaism, which later got turned into the violent inquisition & crusades, Buddhism got co-opted by the Japanese with their samurai culture at one point. In both these cases politics misused peaceful teachings.
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: laughingdog]
#26415535 - 01/04/20 05:46 AM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
I think it was not the Greeks holding us back, but those who conquered the Greeks and who oppressed them who really held us back like the Romans, the Venetians, the Holy Roman empire, and to some extent the Ottomans, then the Nazi's, and finally NATO. Now Russia and China are beginning to infiltrate an control the land.
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
Posts: 13,929
Last seen: 6 days, 22 hours
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: laughingdog]
#26415617 - 01/04/20 07:49 AM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
I would not at all say that the spartans were stoics, especially considering that stoicism as a philosophy did not even arise until, at the very least, many centuries after Sparta was founded and their culture/values developed.
More importantly tho, I don't see why you put the Spartans as representatives of the ancient greeks when in reality it was essentially the opposite. The Spartans were Dorians and saw themselves as foreign conquerors in their own land, hence their militaristic society. The greeks saw them as pretty alien, and they sure as hell saw the greeks as alien, and were very rarely very happy with each other. Sparing a few famous exceptions, of course.
Spartan culture was wildly different than that of the other greek city states, and regardless, it was just that. A city state. Who even at the height of their power and influence only controlled a portion of the Hellas region, most of their history only controlling their tiny capital, which I really would be more inclined to call a 'village' most of the time, rather than even a city-state. Lightyears away from being representative of ancient/classical greek culture.
--------------------
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: Near Dylan]
#26415671 - 01/04/20 08:43 AM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
lots of lovely places in the pellopanese (sparta) - olive groves and amphi-theatres - stones left in the weeds, still with great acoustics
--------------------
_ 🧠_
Edited by redgreenvines (01/04/20 08:44 AM)
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: Near Dylan]
#26416079 - 01/04/20 01:52 PM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Near Dylan said: I would not at all say that the spartans were stoics, especially considering that stoicism as a philosophy did not even arise until, at the very least, many centuries after Sparta was founded and their culture/values developed.
More importantly tho, I don't see why you put the Spartans as representatives of the ancient greeks when in reality it was essentially the opposite. The Spartans were Dorians and saw themselves as foreign conquerors in their own land, hence their militaristic society. The greeks saw them as pretty alien, and they sure as hell saw the greeks as alien, and were very rarely very happy with each other. Sparing a few famous exceptions, of course.
Spartan culture was wildly different than that of the other greek city states, and regardless, it was just that. A city state. Who even at the height of their power and influence only controlled a portion of the Hellas region, most of their history only controlling their tiny capital, which I really would be more inclined to call a 'village' most of the time, rather than even a city-state. Lightyears away from being representative of ancient/classical greek culture.
Seems we are thinking of different meanings of stoic. One meaning could refer to a philosophy that arose at a specific historical time, another meaning is similar to having a 'stiff upper lip', or putting up with shit, not complaining, being responsible, and abandoning the search for personal pleasure.
I used Sparta as an example, of a military society, (not as representative of all Greeks), because of this well known story:
https://quatr.us/greeks/spartan-boy-fox-story.htm
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Sparta%2C+the+boy+and+the+fox&ia=web
My point was simply, that there are many instances of stoicism (meaning #2 below), & that in fact all soldiering & military endeavors require it. ( And this meaning predates the philosophy of Zeno of Citium, in Athens, in the early 3rd century BC). So if Romans had this quality there is no reason to suppose they got if from Buddhism, which in fact has an opposing agenda, namely compassion & full awareness, etc.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stoicism Definition of stoicism 1 capitalized : the philosophy of the Stoics 2 : indifference to pleasure or pain : IMPASSIVENESS
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: laughingdog]
#26416219 - 01/04/20 03:41 PM (4 years, 25 days ago) |
|
|
probably broken telephone before the invention of telephone: the Spartans probably thought they had it right, but they heard wrong. instead of "if you encounter the buddha throw him off the mountain", they heard "if you encounter a sick child throw him off the mountain".
bunch a right wing goofs!
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
Neither the Roman legions nor the Spartans were much fun. Were a lot of bad apples long before the North Korean Government.
|
george698
Stranger

Registered: 01/08/17
Posts: 15
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: probably broken telephone before the invention of telephone: the Spartans probably thought they had it right, but they heard wrong. instead of "if you encounter the buddha throw him off the mountain", they heard "if you encounter a sick child throw him off the mountain".
bunch a right wing goofs!
Not sure what is right wing on that, the former RDA or DDR used a similar approach in their birth control.
In view of overpopulation not a bad tactic, they had other motivs though
|
PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,562
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: george698]
#26431078 - 01/13/20 11:14 AM (4 years, 16 days ago) |
|
|
Ancient Chinese Historian Describes The Roman Empire // 3rd century AD "Weilüe" // Primary Source
Edited by PatrickKn (01/13/20 11:15 AM)
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: PatrickKn]
#26438502 - 01/17/20 12:32 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
not exactly in the spirit of Buddhism

Title could be " Kill the mother fuckers"
Edited by laughingdog (01/17/20 12:34 PM)
|
PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,562
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: laughingdog]
#26438702 - 01/17/20 02:43 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
Might not be in the spirit of Buddhism as a religion, but it's quite in line with Buddhism as a cultural identity. Buddhist cultures throughout the ages have been involved in war, and many sects have had warrior classes which were used to spread the religion itself. Not so different from the Western powers of the past.
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: PatrickKn]
#26438984 - 01/17/20 05:41 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
got any references for your claims?
|
PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,562
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: PatrickKn]
#26439008 - 01/17/20 05:56 PM (4 years, 12 days ago) |
|
|
The imperial history of China and Japan from roughly 500 CE to the early 1900s come to mind off the top of my head. I'm not sure that references are entirely necessary unless there's something more specific at play. Just talking, not debating anything myself.
Edited by PatrickKn (01/17/20 06:08 PM)
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
|
Re: the romans and the buddhists [Re: PatrickKn]
#26439802 - 01/18/20 07:55 AM (4 years, 11 days ago) |
|
|
I don't think slavery is addressed in buddhism, although caste is pervasive.
--------------------
_ 🧠_
|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
|
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I don't think slavery is addressed in buddhism, although caste is pervasive.
is that so?
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=buddha+and+caste+system&ia=web
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=buddha+and+slavery&ia=web
|
|