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OfflineJohn in WI
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custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix?
    #26400310 - 12/25/19 10:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

happy Holidays folks
Last week I went to my feed mill--the people who custom mix my chicken feed and chicken scratch grains for me.  It's a small ma and pa operation, and they will mix any amounts. My quantities--a few hundred pounds, to literally rail cars.  Cool place.

My chicken FEED recipe is ground, and fairly compicated.  The scratch grain is really old school.  Equal parts oats, corn, wheat, and barley.  At home I throw in whatever is available.  Sunflower, safflower, maybe some buckwheat or rye.  Chickens love it--scratching and pecking around to find the grains.

I can get a 50# bag of scratch mixed up for around $9.  Well under what WBS costs, and just a hair over what the average of the components are.

I'm curious, since the mill has access to a wide range of common feed and seed grains, what would be the ultimate mix?

I've been using a lot of oats and corn (prepared separately, mixed about 2:1) and it seems to do fine. 

It seems to me that a mix of grain would provide a nice, diverse food source for mycellium to grow on.  The mix of grain sizes should provide also a lot of nucleation points and rapid colonization. 

In any case, I get their about every 6 weeks. I was thinking of having a custom grain spawn mixed up.  What would you think about equal parts wheat, oats, rye, and corn?  THey could all be worked up together.  12hr soak followed by a simmer/drying and PCing. 

Any thoughts? I'm already going there for the chickens, would it be worth it to custom mix a grain spawn? (they will do it down to #50 quantities, I don't need to purchase a truck load).  If you were going to do it, what would your ultimate be?  I like corn a lot, but a mix of small grains in there too would help colonize bulk substrates.  I could even mix in some millet for that exact reason.

And if it doesn't work for 'shrooms, the chickens certainly would gobble it up.


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OfflineShroomei
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: John in WI] * 1
    #26400402 - 12/25/19 11:47 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I can't answer your question but I can offer a few thoughts.
rye is a soft grain that cooks fast and eventually pops. Wheat is more tough and needs more simmering.
If different grains are all mixed together the soft ones might get too soft while the tough ones remain a bit raw.


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InvisibleAlchemycologist
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Shroomei]
    #26400463 - 12/25/19 12:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You don't need a diverse food source. Use whatever whole grain is cheapest.


--------------------
Yep.


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OfflineNeowynd8
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Alchemycologist]
    #26400471 - 12/25/19 01:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Don't think it matters much particularly from a small scale perspective.


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Shroomei]
    #26400472 - 12/25/19 01:06 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was wondering about that.  If it meant prepping several grains separately, and then mixing them prior to PC, I'm not sure it would be a real benefit. 

It might be a benefit, if mycellium benefits from a mix of carb sources, but I'm not sure.


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: John in WI]
    #26400523 - 12/25/19 02:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Just use whatever’s cheapest and easy for you to prep.

That’s it. there’s no secret mix.



Cheap, easy, available, that’s all that matters. Don’t get caught up in any hype or bullshit

That being said I like millet for masters and larger easier to prep grains rye, wheat or oats for bags.

Inoculation points babaaay


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: John in WI]
    #26400929 - 12/25/19 08:04 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

John in WI said:
I was wondering about that.  If it meant prepping several grains separately, and then mixing them prior to PC, I'm not sure it would be a real benefit. 

It might be a benefit, if mycellium benefits from a mix of carb sources, but I'm not sure.



Ideally if you're going to mix grains you should make the spawn separately and mix them during spawning. It'll make it easier to get the water content right. I doubt any combination is going to make the mycelium colonize the jars any faster but it might improve yields.


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OfflineDnDRnD
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Kizzle]
    #26400940 - 12/25/19 08:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I've played around with some mixes and what i like to use is roughly 2 cups millet, 1 cup wheat, 1/4 to 1/2 cup flax seed, 1/4 cup hemp hearts, 1/4 to 1/2 cup buckwheat

I'm still experimenting some, id like to add in some RGS perhaps to, I dont use corn much but i do occasionally add in a touch to help break up clumps when I go to shake it, tends to yield your standard 28-30+ grams dry per quart depending on cleanliness of spawn and bulk substrate conditions


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat


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OfflineMycoactive
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26400966 - 12/25/19 08:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DnDRnD said:
I've played around with some mixes and what i like to use is roughly 2 cups millet, 1 cup wheat, 1/4 to 1/2 cup flax seed, 1/4 cup hemp hearts, 1/4 to 1/2 cup buckwheat

I'm still experimenting some, id like to add in some RGS perhaps to, I dont use corn much but i do occasionally add in a touch to help break up clumps when I go to shake it, tends to yield your standard 28-30+ grams dry per quart depending on cleanliness of spawn and bulk substrate conditions




I like mixes as well. Flax seed can be tricky due to high fat content. They get really viscous and sticky. I find it's best to use in small quantities (10% or less). As others have mentioned, different grains don't usually change colonization times substantially if they're prepared well. That said, some active species outside of cubensis do seem to prefer certain grains over others, which is why I prefer to mix multiple grains to maximize chances of colonization when toying around with species that I've never cultivated before.


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Kizzle]
    #26401149 - 12/26/19 03:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

That's what I was looking for.  Grains that prepped similarly.  Sort of a cheaper alternative to WBS.  It isn't incredibly expensive--but it's significantly more than the chicken scratch I get mixed up.

As a test, I think I'll just take a few quarts of my scratch mix (it's oats, wheat, barley, and whole corn), give it a good 12hr soak and short simmer, and see where I'm at. 

Any of the components would work alone, so their's no reason a mix wouldn't work too.  I'm guessing the mix of grain sizes would allow for tons of inoculation points.  Using the whole corn--the grains are huge. It looks like trying to fill a jar with marbles, vs. using WBS where it's like filling a jar with BBs. 

I'll give it a shot.  I already have the grain mix, all livestock grade locally grown grains.  If it doesn't hold up well to PC, or isn't hydrated right, the chickens can eat it.  They certainly don't care.


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OfflineMycoactive
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: John in WI]
    #26401205 - 12/26/19 05:46 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

John in WI said:
That's what I was looking for.  Grains that prepped similarly.  Sort of a cheaper alternative to WBS.  It isn't incredibly expensive--but it's significantly more than the chicken scratch I get mixed up.

As a test, I think I'll just take a few quarts of my scratch mix (it's oats, wheat, barley, and whole corn), give it a good 12hr soak and short simmer, and see where I'm at.




Those grains don’t prep similarly. It may work, but the corn requires more prep. The other grains will get hydrated much more readily, and they’ll become mushy at the point that the corn becomes well-hydrated. I imagine you’re still keen on trying this, so give it a shot, and let us know how it goes. Nothing better than firsthand experience.


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InvisibleYogiBear
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Shroomei]
    #26401343 - 12/26/19 08:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was thinking prep seperatly and then mix in jar and PC


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Mycoactive]
    #26401353 - 12/26/19 09:07 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I think if I were using POPCORN, this might work, as I described. But I'm afraid you're right. I'm using whole, "dent corn".  The big grain stuff, used in animal feed.  The grains I would guess are about twice the size of popcorn kernels.  From what I can gather, they have similar carb and amino acid profiles, but field corn is much cheaper.

You're suggesting, if I go with this idea, to prep the corn separate?  I have field corn hydration down pretty well.  An overnight soak, and a simmer until the kernels are chewy. JUST to the point where 1 in 100 cracks open from PC.  It's cheap, and I like it--but when you're factoring the actual volume of grain that can occupy a quart jar, these huge grains actually leave a ton of air space.  I guess that's my issue--how do I use the cheap-AF field corn, but maximize the volume of the quart jar?  What can I fill in the huge amount of dead air space with? 

I don't suspect the mycellium really cares.  With proper hydration and aeration, carbs are carbs.  i'm just trying to figure out how to integrate my mycology hobby with my chicken hobby.  Support a local feedmill along the way...  I'm in no way interested in anything commercial. A few buck this way or that doesn't really matter to me. 

you're right though--I already have the scratch mix soaking, we'll definitely see what happens.  Give it an honest shot, see what happens. Post the result good or bad.


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OfflineJohn in WI
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: YogiBear]
    #26401360 - 12/26/19 09:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Htat might be the case. 

Curious, if one were to do that, what ratios you might be talking about? I did some hack testing, and using 1 part dry corn to 2 parts oats, the huge dead air space between the corn kernels seems mostly filled in with the much smaller oats grains.   

Maybe do somehing along the lines of that?  Prep 1 part (dry) corn (soak, brief simmer, until hydrated), and use one of the oats teks on here (from what I remember, a vigorous simmer until hydrated).  Dry them properly, and mix?

I can't imagine the shroom's care what exactly the carb source is.  if the water content is right, I should just be able to prep them, mix them, and PC them. 

As I mentioned, just trying to find a way to integrate mycology with chickens.  Their is some overlap. Grains, straw, etc.


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OfflineCrackatoa
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26401383 - 12/26/19 09:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AyePlus said:

That being said I like millet for masters and larger easier to prep grains rye, wheat or oats for bags.

Inoculation points babaaay



:whathesaid:
Millet to oats, WBS to oats. Works perfect, quick, and more inoculation points than you can shake a stick at


--------------------

Crack's Tek's and Shit



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InvisibleYogiBear
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Crackatoa]
    #26401407 - 12/26/19 09:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Just getting into millet but no myc jumping yet

Not sure if my agar was bad or not enough water in the grains???
Soaked for 24hrs and PCd wet


Edited by YogiBear (12/26/19 10:07 AM)


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InvisibleAyePlusS
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Crackatoa]
    #26401561 - 12/26/19 12:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

My first millet jars were definitely under-hydrated. Some took like 3 months to colonize. Some never made it. Millet is kind of a bit h to get enough water into, I add to boiling water and soak overnight, then strain and load kinda wet. Make sure to stir while youre load jars or the ones from the bottom of the strainer will be extra wet

Post a pic, any burst grains? I usually want to see a few with millet, because of the hull its kinda hard to over-hydrate.

Quote:

Crackatoa said:
Quote:

AyePlus said:

Inoculation points babaaay



:whathesaid:




:highfive:


@ OP try a few mixes and get back to us, you probably wont do much but complicate your prep process or sacrifice proper hydration on one  grain for perfect on another.. I guesss  if you really wanted to blend you could do one blend with all large grains amd one with all small grains? Idk why not just use two and keep it simple.


--------------------
Learn about breeding

C10’s agar guide
Good surface conditions = Good pinsets
Read more, post less.
🅂 🄰 🄼 🄴  🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼
🅃 🄴 🄰 🄼  🄲 🄻 🄸 🄽 🄶 🅆 🅁 🄰 🄿


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OfflineDnDRnD
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: AyePlus]
    #26401958 - 12/26/19 06:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Check out Caps McGee's no prep grain tek, it's a recipe that works for MOST grains of add dry grains (think 2/3 cup?) Add in water ( think 1/3 cup?) Then PC and boom darn near perfect grains


--------------------
Bods Easy AF Oat Prep Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24126032

Pastywhytes No Pour Agar Tek (PastyPlates)
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/19208976

Shaperdreamings Shoebox Assembly Tek
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26009662

Down with the bourgeoisie and up with the proletariat


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InvisiblePsilotyl
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: DnDRnD]
    #26401981 - 12/26/19 06:20 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I’ve used rye berries (24 soak, then simmered) at about 75%, mixed in then with uncle bens boil in a bag brown rice and millet before with good results. I just use rye berries now though, and I get solid results consistently. I found a nice cheap local source of it that works well. I’ve got it honed now where they are big and plump with no bursted grains. No need for it to be complicated


--------------------
‎שלום וְאור | PEACE & LIGHT


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OfflineFailboat
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Psilotyl]
    #26402203 - 12/26/19 09:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Milo/Sorghum is a bit easier to hydrate nicely than Millet IMO. Milo G2G to Rye, Wheat , or Oats.


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Offlinevinnie boombotz
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Failboat]
    #26402225 - 12/26/19 09:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

a couple reads you may find interesting



https://patents.justia.com/patent/20180000013

The above-described seed blends were determined by trial and error experimentation, with as few as three of the seeds' (chia, flax seed and canihua) giving improved results up to the preferred embodiment of the invention, all eight seeds', giving the greatest enhancement of already-improved yields available possibly with only three seeds. Upon review of the results of the trial and error selection, however, it is apparent to the inventor what part of the source of the substrate strength is: the incorporation of at least two complete protein seeds (complete protein's meaning all the essential amino acids for human consumption) combined with at least one structural seed gives the new and unexpectedy improved yield and purity results of the present invention. By “structural seed” is meant a seed with a relatively high cellulose content compared to all seeds generally, such as the cereal grains corn or rice or the notably high fiber flax seed. By including high cellulose corn, rice or flax seed (or all three) in the seed blend of the present invention, together with at least two complete protein seeds, a synergy occurs wherein the high protein substrate foments fastest and healthiest possible mushroom culture while the high cellulose grain provides structural integrity to the growth medium. Without the high cellulose grain constituent in the growth medium, the softer whole protein grains such as canihua and chia would tend to collapse in on themselves during sprouting, under the weight of the mycelial growth. For this structural reason, the corn, rice or flax seed component of the present seed blend will generally be at least 50% of the seed blend, more preferably at least 65% of the seed blend and ideally greater than 90% of the seed blend, with the one or more seeds other than corn, rice and flax seed making up the balance of the blend but always with at least three of the seed types' being present. The combination of at least one cellulosic seed (corn, rice or flax seed) together with a minimum of two high protein seeds (chosen from quinoa, canihua or chia) is the insight of the present invention at the heart of the selection of the seed blend.
https://patents.justia.com/patent/7178285


Suitable substrates for growing mushrooms include grains having high levels of anthocyanins, as noted by the color of the grain. By way of example, certain varieties of corn such as purple corn and black corn have high levels of anthocyanins. Purple barley and purple or black rice varieties are also known to contain high levels of anthocyanins.

Any variety of mushroom will benefit from the methods of the present invention, although due to the intended end use of the mushrooms the variety must be edible by humans. Suitable varieties include, but are not limited to, Coriolus versicolor, Ganoderma lucidum, Schizophyllum commune, Pleurotus ostreatus, Agaricus blazei, Lentinula edodes, Flammulina velutipes, Grifola frondonsus, and Codyceps sinensis.

In an additional aspect, the present invention provides a method of increasing the amount of selenium in medicinal mushroom biomass and mushroom mycelia comprising providing a substrate having selenium therein; and growing the mushrooms on the substrate. Substrates suitable for growing mushrooms and having high levels of selenium include, but are not limited to, certain varieties of wheat such as triticum teranicum.

In yet a further aspect, the present invention provides a method of increasing the amount of beta-glucan in medicinal mushroom biomass and mushroom mycelia comprising: providing a substrate having beta glucan therein; and growing the mushrooms on the substrate. Beta-glucans are a family of polysaccharides known in the art for having antitumor properties, cholesterol lowering ability, and other beneficial properties. Substrates having high levels of beta-glucans include, but are not limited to, certain varieties of barley such as waxy hulless barley.

In a further aspect, the present invention provides a method of decreasing the growing time of mushrooms, by providing a substrate rich in anthocyanins. Suitable substrates are those as described above. The mushrooms are grown on the anthocyanin-rich substrate, and the time to spawning and fruiting is decreased as compared to growing time on substrates not having anthocyanins. It has been found that the growing time can be decreased by 20–25%, using the methods of the present invention. This provides a significant advantage and benefit in the commercial production of mushrooms.

In an additional aspect, the present invention provides a method of increasing the potency of naturally-occurring medicinal compounds in mushrooms comprising: providing a substrate high in anthocyanins, and growing the mushrooms on the substrate. Preferably, the substrate is purple or black corn.

As used herein, the term “increased potency” means increased levels or amounts of the naturally occurring medicinal compounds found in mushrooms. It has been found that growing mushrooms on substrates high in anthocyanins such as purple corn or other purple or black pigmented grain has the unexpected benefit of increasing the amounts of certain desirable compounds already present in medicinal mushrooms, including, but not limited to, triterpenes, ganoderic acid, cordycepin, adenosine, and hydroxyethyl-adenosine.


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Mycoactive]
    #26402255 - 12/26/19 10:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mycoactive said:
Quote:

John in WI said:
That's what I was looking for.  Grains that prepped similarly.  Sort of a cheaper alternative to WBS.  It isn't incredibly expensive--but it's significantly more than the chicken scratch I get mixed up.

As a test, I think I'll just take a few quarts of my scratch mix (it's oats, wheat, barley, and whole corn), give it a good 12hr soak and short simmer, and see where I'm at.




Those grains don’t prep similarly. It may work, but the corn requires more prep. The other grains will get hydrated much more readily, and they’ll become mushy at the point that the corn becomes well-hydrated. I imagine you’re still keen on trying this, so give it a shot, and let us know how it goes. Nothing better than firsthand experience.



Like he said, corn is probably a particularly bad choice to mix like that. It takes me a full hour of boiling to get it where it needs to be, anything less and it's rock hard and doesn't work as well and I did some larger kerneled corn recently and it took even longer. Of course if you prep them separately I don't think it'd be problem. I do like the idea of making use of that extra space in a corn jar though. I've actually been considering trying a corn/brown rice mix prepped separately and then mixed for that very reason.


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InvisibleAlchemycologist
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Re: custom grain mixes? What's the PERFECT mix? [Re: Kizzle]
    #26406167 - 12/29/19 11:26 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You can PC your corn for 45 minutes. Put the rocker on at the start (no venting necessary), get it to 15 PSI, start your timer, then pull the rocker off when your timer goes off. Drain, load and PC.

I do this for sclerotia. The big kernels make it easy to separate the stones from the grains.


--------------------
Yep.


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