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Offlinesaintdextro
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inconsistencies in the bible
    #26399603 - 12/24/19 07:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

for those who say the Bible is the 100% true and consistent, explain these contradictions to me and which story is true and why you believe one over the other, and how both are true:

MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.
MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.
(Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.
LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.

MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.
MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.

MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.

MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry.
MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved.

MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus' career.
JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career.

MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed.
MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following.

MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jesus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper.
LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee.

MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.

MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate.
LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover.
JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation.

MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field.
AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field.

MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.
AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field.

MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.

MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).
MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty).

MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK allegedly represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.
MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.
JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.
MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.
LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.
JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.
1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist.
JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist.

MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with "the Feeding of the Multitude" that they did not even understand the event.
JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king.

MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified.
JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time.

MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.
LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).
AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.
MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.
JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not a post to discourage belief in Jesus, I Believe him as the Messiah, i'm just saying, there's different accounts telling slightly different details, why is one more true than the other one? why is the word of God inconsistent, while you claim it is 100% accurate?


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26399641 - 12/24/19 07:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

If there was a book that gave all the power, people would still reject and rebel.  Just look at the internet, it's basically that.

I think people lack a true relationship with themselves first.  You'll never really find how power than yourself.  It takes union with that divine, original, creative force.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Offlineaudiophoenix
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy] * 3
    #26399684 - 12/24/19 08:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Oh you just need to know how to twist those words to fit your desired narrative


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro]
    #26399685 - 12/24/19 08:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What a nice challenge! I am definitely interested in helping reconcile or demolish what needs to change in order to be right with God and love my fellow man. I'm not a apologist. I hold to the testimony of Matthew Mark and John as perfectly true. But since there are supposed contadictions between those here, I will address the ones between the eyewitness testimony to see if I can learn something. 💪


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26399698 - 12/24/19 09:12 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The bible like any book or media is word of mouth.  There couldn't be a more messed up method of communicating.

Just look at the internet.  Post a comment on facebook, say a news feed and a million trolls reply.

The whole point of religion should be to learn and teach freedom.  Language is very touchy and rigid.  We know more rigid concepts than freedom.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


Edited by Morel Guy (12/24/19 09:13 PM)


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro] * 2
    #26399770 - 12/24/19 10:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Religion is man made. The stories build upon each other.
There's no reason to do a line be line debate.
The obvious should be obvious


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26400028 - 12/25/19 04:10 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Religion is not man made.  I'm sure that beliefs across an estimated 2 trillion galaxy universe are beyond varied and complex.  Man-centric beliefs are not greater than the super-mundane.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineVP123
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26400059 - 12/25/19 05:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The bible is more of a prayer book. A document to derive inspiration from. However, many people insist on treating it like an instruction manual. It is actually dangerous to interpret it as a rigid set of instructions. By simply focusing in hand picked passages, without consideration of the inherent contradictions, it can and has been used to justify many ungodly actions of humanity.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: VP123]
    #26400066 - 12/25/19 05:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Buddhism is a much better manual, if one can strive to overcome biology.  There it is, outlined precepts on how to be.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro]
    #26400302 - 12/25/19 09:59 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It's very unwise to assume nothing created everything, but to say a book is supreme is a stretch.

Okay, so the first contradiction of interest is between Mark and Matthew:

MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.
MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.
(Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

The KJV is more precise, so in Mark, Jesus addresses the dynamic in an immediate confrontational sense, and in Matthew he addresses the dynamic in an ultimate sense.

By the way, would you be interested in me moving to where you are so we can be friends?


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26400800 - 12/25/19 06:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I was looking at that first one too.

Is it even a contradiction?

If you're not with JC you're against him.  If you're not against JC you are for him. 

You can be 'not-against' JC and JC considers that 'for him'.  Where is the contradiction?

The first statement was in the context of an exorcism.  The second in the context of another holy man who perhaps had yet to learn about who JC is, and was doing mystical healing without proclaiming it in the name of Christ.

In the first statement, Jesus was answering an accusation that he's in cahoots with the devil.  Jesus's statement speaks to the total separation of God and Satan.

The second, Jesus showed approval to someone who is doing good "not in his name", he said those people are not against him, but rather, are for him. 

The above is a profound statement in that it could be seen as validating other religions.  Some christians have said some pretty stupid things like Buddhism is evil and Ghandi went to hell because he wasn't a christian.  It's hard on the ears and such ignorant statements just turn people off.

I heard a catholic say that yoga and meditation 'opens your mind up to the devil' where he gives you all these evil ideas.  Terrible, terrible thing to say.

Anyways I don't see a contradiction in that first one, I don't know if I'll chime in on anymore, but it's fun to think about so I might.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26400811 - 12/25/19 06:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I thought lately that one unified force created existence/the universe.  It's possible to go back to that understanding.

There's a lot of problems with ego, lot's of guilt and some religion plays on that.  Tantra actually was an ancient understanding of lower realms.  People eating shit, jizz and stuff as a ritual.

Completely powerless things, no real magic.  Perhaps Hitler tried doing some of that.  They were very much in a bad spot after WW1 seeing hallucinations.

PTSD can do odd things.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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InvisibleR.I.P.Zappa
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26400842 - 12/25/19 06:41 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

One thing to keep in mind is history is written by the victors.

You will notice as the age of the gospels are written Judas is smeared harder with each later account and the gospel of Judas is almost wiped from the earth as the Catholics increased in authority to the point reviving the practices of the pharisees of vain traditions that make the word of god null.

Then you have the gnostics being hunted down, killed, and any document found destroyed. Same goes with the mushroom/psychedelic cults in which all religion is mostly likely founded on when you look at the ancient paintings for the illiterate of the time and the trip reports scattered through the cannons.

It is one thing to read about a living god from a book and another to understand the term when you see the precise living machine like visuals and cryptic outside of self thoughts for yourself. It is easy to see why the term, "the living god" came about and why no man has seen his face and came back to tell of it.

My faith in so called Christianity starts and stops at the promise and the expressed character of the christ; not the religion of political fear tactics and traditions that bear no good fruit. Most of all a book that has been in the possession of a sect that has a history of bad apple moves.

The Gnostics were most likely on point with the revelation that the God that Abraham and Moses rode with was actually the devil himself. Posing as the living God, but is actually the god of this world.
Quite possibly both, like a badly tuned radio signal. One day he loves ya next day he wants ya to kill your son, ya know, to show your faith. :rockon:

There is nothing more anti Christ like than a Christian that constantly quotes from the old testament to scare and frighten people to repent that Jesus came to debunk.
If your depending on a book rather than seeking God or the source from your heart you are more than willing to be deceived by the impostors and led astray by confusion.

Jesus was claimed to say, they will speak of me with there mouth but their hearts are far from me. If you knew my father you would know who I am. 
If you see a scripture that does not reflect the nature of God that Jesus showed than you have good reason to be concerned of it's validity and intention of the author.
It is still debatable that any of the apostles or Jesus even existed but all legends are build on truths then expounded by the interpretations.

A wise man once said along the lines, reading a book wont get you across the river, eventually you'll have to put the book down and cross it yourself.


--------------------
-The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought-
-"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".-
-When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".-
-If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.-

psychonautwiki.org

How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE
BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek.
Principles of mushroom growing for beginners


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: R.I.P.Zappa]
    #26400856 - 12/25/19 07:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The dude that raped me when I was 5 is a openly gay preacher.  That's pretty fucked up.  He was a late teen at the time, but adult.  I just wonder what he's been up to.  Seems people use sex powers a lot in religion.

I know it's a big universe and this world scared me a lot.  Imagination has levels.  Suppose we do play with the devil, God knows I dance with the devil.

I like the edging meditation when there ends up being a release.  But man, if there was religion, we'd be in very open communication across the universe. 

It's a freaky power to have imagination with hope, and a very real fear of not communicating it properly.  There's probably just too much in the imagined world for people to go to the source.  Yet it's always there, it's always required.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineLoaded Shaman
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro]
    #26401133 - 12/26/19 03:06 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't worry about inconsistencies IN the bible.

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


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Offlinesaintdextro
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26401182 - 12/26/19 05:01 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

As far as the for or against him "inversion" I'm glad to hear the explainations, I was quoting from this site https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html , and saw that a number of them were "explainable" and chose a quick selection I found note worthy from the Gospels,,,

but what about the women who first found Jesus tomb empty? or how did Judas die? (interesting I asked a preacher who had the NT with english on one side and the greek on the other, and he said there's no mention of "tripping and falling" in the original greek, however, does seem to be different)


--------------------
"He who finds peace and joy
And radiance within himself
That man becomes one with God
And vanishes into God's bliss."

-Bhagavad Gita, 5.24
One 21 - Building Better Bombs
One 21 - Pacified
One 21 - Two Sides Is Fine
"Respectability is a cloak for the hypocrite" - Jiddu Krishnamurti


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InvisibleHartford
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26401254 - 12/26/19 07:18 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I wouldn't worry about inconsistencies IN the bible.

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.




What makes the idea of a start an irrational premise, may I ask?


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26401799 - 12/26/19 03:49 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.





It seems existence itself is not rational.  No rational explanation can be found to explain it.  Rationality itself breaks down at  time=0, and remains broken down for a moment, as the laws of physics are unable to describe what's happening.  Rationality needs time in order to assign cause and effect, 'before' the Big Bang is an invalid concept, as someone much smarter than me pointed out, it's like looking for a point north of the North Pole.

What does all this mean?

I'd say it means that rationality itself is limited and incapable of understanding completely what is truly going on.  You're never going to be able to work it all out with the thinking mind.  Rationality is great tool for understanding what's going on once this irrational mystery has taken form like it has right now, but that's all it's good for.


To come to some resolution on origins you need an element of mysticism. 

Rational people say there's branes moving around in higher dimensions.  Some of us prefer to say there is a higher consciousness responsible.  It seems rationality always wants to assign non-conscious agents to explain everything.  Some people who get really into the religion of rationality deny their own sovereign consciousness and say there is no free will, and they have all these rational sounding explanations to back that up.  But they still choose what they want to eat for breakfast each day, or get mad at people who display bad behaviour as if those people had any choice and something could have been any different.  So they contradict themselves all the time.

Neither side can empirically prove their position.  You just have to have faith and it cannot be gotten away from.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26401811 - 12/26/19 03:57 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

It is a duality and we are a conspiracy tring to be safe with a overly complicated experience.  That is why I drink, I feel less dual.

Dual thinking can be any dimension of thought.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26402065 - 12/26/19 07:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.
MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.




This could be two different events, in one event, Jesus heals one by saying 'your faith has healed you', in the other 'he touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight'

Could be that Jesus had two healing events that evening on the way out of Jericho.

But in all honesty, I recognize that the bible was written without things like academic peer review and has been edited repeatedly besides.  To view it otherwise and want it to be precisely accurate in a scientific sense, including that run of generational family tree leading from Adam to Jesus, contradicts the evidence of our own eyes and ears.


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Offliner00tcmplx
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26402070 - 12/26/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Quote:

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.





It seems existence itself is not rational.  No rational explanation can be found to explain it.  Rationality itself breaks down at  time=0, and remains broken down for a moment, as the laws of physics are unable to describe what's happening.  Rationality needs time in order to assign cause and effect, 'before' the Big Bang is an invalid concept, as someone much smarter than me pointed out, it's like looking for a point north of the North Pole.

What does all this mean?

I'd say it means that rationality itself is limited and incapable of understanding completely what is truly going on.  You're never going to be able to work it all out with the thinking mind.  Rationality is great tool for understanding what's going on once this irrational mystery has taken form like it has right now, but that's all it's good for.


To come to some resolution on origins you need an element of mysticism. 

Rational people say there's branes moving around in higher dimensions.  Some of us prefer to say there is a higher consciousness responsible.  It seems rationality always wants to assign non-conscious agents to explain everything.  Some people who get really into the religion of rationality deny their own sovereign consciousness and say there is no free will, and they have all these rational sounding explanations to back that up.  But they still choose what they want to eat for breakfast each day, or get mad at people who display bad behaviour as if those people had any choice and something could have been any different.  So they contradict themselves all the time.

Neither side can empirically prove their position.  You just have to have faith and it cannot be gotten away from.




Rationality is a word that defines an abstractions that is not fully understood. So, even in invoking the word, a person fails to capture the total meaning and in that lack the ability to accurately capture the extent to which it can be applied. Our understanding of the universe, limits our theoretical framing of it. Branes tapping together and forming 'bangs' is one of several retarded theories that exists for the sake of keeping decaying minds in academic posts. There are far better framings of the 'big bang and beyond'. As for the 'rationale' aka (physics), it simply doesn't exist yet thus is theoretical. Atheists are clowns. The concept really doesn't exist if you think rationally about it. The bible as well as all religions are theological/spiritual training wheels. Once one gains a sound grip of the world/universe along a range of disciplines and beliefs, they are to be shed in an effort to yield a better running ethos. As I was once in that stage, I get the process of an eager mind coming to this point so as to do so. I also get the somewhat futility in getting them to go beyond that point. Every religious text is inconsistent because man wrote it based on a snapshot of the culture/theology/understanding of a time. It will always be inconsistent. The point isn't to dwell on some ancient best effort.. it's to move forward past it constructively


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26402391 - 12/27/19 01:58 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.
LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.




8 days is about 6 days.  Or about a week for that matter.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26402399 - 12/27/19 02:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Playing with that power is not the best.  I guess he liked higher reality more.

Guilty heart is guilty heart.  Just teaching our birth guilt and how it looks like receptive indifference.

My sister is a high level nurse.  Just got her phd not long ago.  She deals with people dying a lot.

Imagine every guilty fear ever.  That is a huge cross.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26402407 - 12/27/19 02:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

People tell her their guilty fears?


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26402414 - 12/27/19 02:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

We all fear death but I think sometimes people talk.  Medical is kinda a hustle.  Lot's of people get afraid.

Trying to live longer knowing medical.

I get guilty about bad weather as earth can be such a thrill.  Fearing it makes it have more power.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


Edited by Morel Guy (12/27/19 02:36 AM)


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro]
    #26402552 - 12/27/19 06:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

The testimony of Matthew Mark and John is true. Luke is not included.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26402694 - 12/27/19 08:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

My name is Matthew because my Dad thought I looked biblical.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26402699 - 12/27/19 08:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
My name is Matthew because my Dad thought I looked biblical.




You were one of those biblical looking  babies? Me too, dad named me Titus. It's been interesting...


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26402704 - 12/27/19 08:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

No idea what Titus means. 

Sounds like a planet.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Morel Guy]
    #26402707 - 12/27/19 08:53 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
No idea what Titus means. 

Sounds like a planet.




It was a dude Paul harassed with a letter. It's also a book of the Bible and the name of a Roman emperor.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26403955 - 12/28/19 01:54 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I wouldn't worry about inconsistencies IN the bible.

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.




What makes the idea of a start an irrational premise, may I ask?




Contradiction.

"Nothing" becoming "something".

All attempts to "explain" how 0 can become 1 out of nowhere can't be done rationally. Can you explain it without relying on appealing to "God's mystery", "paradox", and/or math or tensor arguments rooted in infinite regress?

Why are we so unable to describe reality in a straight forward manner that doesn't involve circumventing basic common sense and replacing it with artifice disguised as intellectual apexes?

If we argue the universe is irrational I argue to check your metaphysics and epistemology.

My metaphysic is that I AM. Because I AM, I KNOW I AM (epistemology). The truth of myself allows me to use reason to sift through bullshit like gold in a pan. I can know knowledge directly because I'm/me/we/you/SELF is/are the source of this reality. Whatever is "true" - whatever the fuck constitutes that in any given situation, circumstance, or context - will not contradict itself! That famous Sherlock Holmes quote regarding whatever's left over, no matter how improbable, must in fact be the truth.

Religion and science are claiming a metaphysic which states you ARE NOT, and thus CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING DIRECTLY. Yet, here you obviously ARE, consciously self-aware. As a result your logical epistemology is that you can't know the truth of reality directly. It's separate. You are a passive causal chain whose existence is owed directly as a result of the big bang/god creationism, etc. You actually couldn't have freewill in that system because you're a direct result of random chemicals.

Yet, you obviously have some level of freewill. Argue it's an illusion and I'll ask you "An illusion for whom?" When you answer "Me" or "You", you've conceded your argument that you're required to exist in order to claim you couldn't exist. This is the classic and most popular metaphysical insufficiency leading to epistemological incapacity. It's also maximum irrationality to claim you know by virtue of your own existence you don't actually exist, lmao. This is the metaphysical position 90% of people are unconsciously arguing, then have the gall to act like this is a state of enlightenment. It's not.

We have those two words to describe two mutually exclusive existential states that do not cross paths (like streams). At all. If we're defining reality in a way that contradicts the language we use to describe it we're doing a poor job on either our language end or our logic and rational end. It's often a case of both.

Nothing only becomes more nothing. Something has to have always existed. The rational mind resists that last notion. It's interesting how many will willingly accept the existence of an infinite, omnipotent, all knowing God but suggest the physical universe has just always existed - as a projection of consciousness which is infinite - and the cognitive dissonance begins.

God/creator is a completely unnecessary concept; it's teh same old causal determinist philosophy as modern physics - denying the observer is the source of everything - and instead of creationism myth you have the big bang which is equally as irrational and full of contradictory bullshit. "You can't know truth or reality directly because you're a sinner" or "You don't understand the math enough"; gnostic sabotage! Priests and physicists become interchangeable. The latter is more dangerous because they genuinely believe that have a one-up on the former.

They don't. At all. It's actually embarrassing.

People are unable to realize both those models aren't religion or scientific at all; they're platonic philosophy coupled with material determinist causal assumptions which are completely false and inaccurate descriptions of what we actually observe. Math is the highest human abstraction (consciousness is the source of all abstractions; abstractions do not create consciousness; this is exactly what I mean with creationism myths; you're brainwashed with inverted causality concepts; the fallacy of reification = acting as if math/numbers are real causal things making the universe manifest; they aren't!; they're DESCRIPTIVE, NOT DETERMINATIVE!!!) but it still begins and ends in your consciousness and is thus going to be relative (and seemingly accurate) to whatever paradigm you employ. Make it a rational one and watch progress explode as math is finally used to describe values which physics claims are constants but aren't and can't be...based on their own logic because they have false premises!

Just like with the math, we have a concept called language we use to organize our environment. Man conceived language to describe the environment and organize it.  If we're making the rules and are the source of everything, why are we choosing to contradict ourselves with rules we created in the process?


--------------------



"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius


Edited by Loaded Shaman (12/28/19 02:14 AM)


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26404158 - 12/28/19 07:00 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Don't make so many extrapolations, it's confusing.

Perhaps time is an illusion and what we perceive to be time is a series of events. There was never a zero event, but there was a first one. The first event was done by the first person there. Who was it?


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford] * 1
    #26404535 - 12/28/19 11:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Don't make so many extrapolations, it's confusing.




Nothing was extrapolated or abstracted. I brought things down to the  brass tacks. Nothing should have been confusing about what was stated which was : We don't know everything and are on a journey to understanding more. The more we know, the better the language will become to describe things. Given this, current language and explanations can ofc be wrong. As for this wrongness, it is not practical to juggle or live in 'theory' 24/7. Thus, one must subscribe to a palatable framing/language for day to day. For other tasks, it is ofc fitting to question things. To ultimate ends, question everything. However, one should not live there for long and always have a sensible goal in mind and proper methods understood so as to navigate better.

Quote:

Hartford said:
Perhaps time is an illusion and what we perceive to be time is a series of events. There was never a zero event, but there was a first one. The first event was done by the first person there. Who was it?




Time is an abstraction that takes on many characteristics... So is space.
To what degree one is more intimately familiar with this concept is to the degree that it silences their direct expression of it so as to speak in the cryptographic nature that is represented by these abstractions.

First person/first event...Let me demonstrate a ciphered answer :


What does this 'say to you' in reference to time/zero event?
There are many ways to answer a question.  Ultimate ones are coded...
understanding. A beautiful portrait to be understood by those with understanding.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26404560 - 12/28/19 11:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
Quote:

Hartford said:
Quote:

Loaded Shaman said:
I wouldn't worry about inconsistencies IN the bible.

The entire metaphysic of a "creator" or a "start" to "the universe" is an irrational (contradictory) premise that precludes everything in the bible in the first place.




What makes the idea of a start an irrational premise, may I ask?




Contradiction.

"Nothing" becoming "something".

All attempts to "explain" how 0 can become 1 out of nowhere can't be done rationally. Can you explain it without relying on appealing to "God's mystery", "paradox", and/or math or tensor arguments rooted in infinite regress?

Why are we so unable to describe reality in a straight forward manner that doesn't involve circumventing basic common sense and replacing it with artifice disguised as intellectual apexes?

If we argue the universe is irrational I argue to check your metaphysics and epistemology.

My metaphysic is that I AM. Because I AM, I KNOW I AM (epistemology). The truth of myself allows me to use reason to sift through bullshit like gold in a pan. I can know knowledge directly because I'm/me/we/you/SELF is/are the source of this reality. Whatever is "true" - whatever the fuck constitutes that in any given situation, circumstance, or context - will not contradict itself! That famous Sherlock Holmes quote regarding whatever's left over, no matter how improbable, must in fact be the truth.

Religion and science are claiming a metaphysic which states you ARE NOT, and thus CAN'T KNOW ANYTHING DIRECTLY. Yet, here you obviously ARE, consciously self-aware. As a result your logical epistemology is that you can't know the truth of reality directly. It's separate. You are a passive causal chain whose existence is owed directly as a result of the big bang/god creationism, etc. You actually couldn't have freewill in that system because you're a direct result of random chemicals.

Yet, you obviously have some level of freewill. Argue it's an illusion and I'll ask you "An illusion for whom?" When you answer "Me" or "You", you've conceded your argument that you're required to exist in order to claim you couldn't exist. This is the classic and most popular metaphysical insufficiency leading to epistemological incapacity. It's also maximum irrationality to claim you know by virtue of your own existence you don't actually exist, lmao. This is the metaphysical position 90% of people are unconsciously arguing, then have the gall to act like this is a state of enlightenment. It's not.

We have those two words to describe two mutually exclusive existential states that do not cross paths (like streams). At all. If we're defining reality in a way that contradicts the language we use to describe it we're doing a poor job on either our language end or our logic and rational end. It's often a case of both.

Nothing only becomes more nothing. Something has to have always existed. The rational mind resists that last notion. It's interesting how many will willingly accept the existence of an infinite, omnipotent, all knowing God but suggest the physical universe has just always existed - as a projection of consciousness which is infinite - and the cognitive dissonance begins.

God/creator is a completely unnecessary concept; it's teh same old causal determinist philosophy as modern physics - denying the observer is the source of everything - and instead of creationism myth you have the big bang which is equally as irrational and full of contradictory bullshit. "You can't know truth or reality directly because you're a sinner" or "You don't understand the math enough"; gnostic sabotage! Priests and physicists become interchangeable. The latter is more dangerous because they genuinely believe that have a one-up on the former.

They don't. At all. It's actually embarrassing.

People are unable to realize both those models aren't religion or scientific at all; they're platonic philosophy coupled with material determinist causal assumptions which are completely false and inaccurate descriptions of what we actually observe. Math is the highest human abstraction (consciousness is the source of all abstractions; abstractions do not create consciousness; this is exactly what I mean with creationism myths; you're brainwashed with inverted causality concepts; the fallacy of reification = acting as if math/numbers are real causal things making the universe manifest; they aren't!; they're DESCRIPTIVE, NOT DETERMINATIVE!!!) but it still begins and ends in your consciousness and is thus going to be relative (and seemingly accurate) to whatever paradigm you employ. Make it a rational one and watch progress explode as math is finally used to describe values which physics claims are constants but aren't and can't be...based on their own logic because they have false premises!

Just like with the math, we have a concept called language we use to organize our environment. Man conceived language to describe the environment and organize it.  If we're making the rules and are the source of everything, why are we choosing to contradict ourselves with rules we created in the process?




You've come across something grand it appears that will guide you towards the ultimate ends that were intended for you. This broad range of understanding will seemingly settle and find its place in your life. I can imagine that it has become a time where this will grow more common and in that is a signal of its own.

My ultimate answer down this avenue tames my disclosure of it.
However, I can say and recognize when I have come across a similar soul.

Religion/Science/Academia and our whole body of understanding are upon a precipice of change. This change will occur in its right time. As with all things of grand nature, the rumblings are heard before its arrival. As I place my ear to the ground, they are approaching a crescendo.

Inconsistencies, intended mis-truths, out-right lies, out-dated knowledge. The nigh is darkest before the dawn.

You have laid bare a solid framing. There isn't much to add or detract for that is ultimately up you to do along your path and at the point that you are in it.

To what end do you pursue this ultimate truth? Are you 'aware' of this yet?

What tames and tempers my detailing/disclosure is the desire to 'take it all in' and enjoy the present world before it is forever changed. I've gone through phases of emotions pertaining to institutions of belief (including science). I've come to KNOW they are wrong in many ways and for many self-interested reason. From this know-ledge though... I am aware that past the point of it being in my head and out into the world : manifested that the magnitude of change will be significant.

Fellow soul, do you ponder of such things? Where are you in this journey of understanding? Do you truly seek the completed understanding/framing of these conflicting thoughts? Do you truly want to plug all of the holes in your understanding? Indeed what currently is falls short of is to be. Is it wrong to possess a more complete knowledge but want to remain it one's secret so as to relish in the present vs face the unknown future?

I'm worried for man in this next phase. Worried for what becomes of this world when the answer is more clearly given. That being said, I know of what must come and be manifested. To erase all doubt, usher in a new age, and compel man forward.

The 'timing' as it were.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: r00tcmplx] * 1
    #26404630 - 12/28/19 12:37 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

There remains a season and a half I believe, before the great change will happen


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26404642 - 12/28/19 12:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
There remains a season and a half I believe, before the great change will happen



:nicesmile:


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: r00tcmplx]
    #26404670 - 12/28/19 01:00 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Daniel refered to time, times and a half of a time before the restoration of all things. He also referred to a specific number of days.

The kind of time he talks about represents an era, like the middle ages, the rennaisance, the modern era.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Hartford]
    #26404846 - 12/28/19 02:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
Daniel refered to time, times and a half of a time before the restoration of all things. He also referred to a specific number of days.

The kind of time he talks about represents an era, like the middle ages, the rennaisance, the modern era.



Time is relative and no man's particular conception of it absolute.
So, in your earlier reference, it took it to mean what it means for me and not necessarily that of a man who conceived of it ages ago.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26406646 - 12/29/19 05:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Loaded Shaman still trying to tackle he himself as The One. LOL

funny. and laughable.

rootcomplex also, trying to define rationality without using ratiocination. again, funny.


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Re: inconsistencies in the bible [Re: saintdextro] * 1
    #26407515 - 12/30/19 09:31 AM (4 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

saintdextro said:
for those who say the Bible is the 100% true and consistent, explain these contradictions to me and which story is true and why you believe one over the other, and how both are true:

MT 12:30 Jesus says that those who are not with him are against him.
MK 9:40 Jesus says that those who are not against him are for him.
(Note: This puts those who are indifferent or undecided in the "for him" category in the first instance and in the "against him" category in the second instance.)

MT 17:1-2 The Transfiguration occurs six days after Jesus foretells his suffering.
LK 9:28-29 It takes place about eight days afterwards.

MT 20:29-34 Jesus heals two blind men on the way to Jericho.
MK 10:46-52 He heals one blind man.

MT 21:2-6, MK 11:2-7, LK 19:30-35 The disciples follow Jesus instructions and bring him the animal (or animals, in the case of MT).
JN 12:14 Jesus finds the animal himself.

MT 21:7 Jesus rides two animals during his triumphal entry.
MK 11:7, LK 19:35, JN 12:14 Only one animal is involved.

MT 21:12-13 The cleansing of the temple occurs at the end of Jesus' career.
JN 2:13-16 It occurs near the beginning of his career.

MT 21:19-20 The fig tree withers immediately after being cursed by Jesus. The disciples notice and are amazed.
MK 11:13-14, 20-21 The disciples first notice that the tree has withered the day following.

MT 26:6-13, MK 14:3 The anointing of Jesus takes place in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper.
LK 7:36-38 It takes place at the house of a Pharisee in Galilee.

MT 26:14-25, MK 14:10-11, LK 22:3-23 Judas made his bargain with the chief priests before the meal.
JN 13:21-30 After the meal.

MT 26:18-20, 57-68, 27:1-2, MK 14:16-18, 53-72, 15:1 Jesus' initial hearing was at night on Passover. In the morning he was taken to Pilate.
LK 22:13-15, 54-66 The initial hearing took place in the morning on Passover.
JN 18:28, 19:14 It took place the day before Passover, on the Day of Preparation.

MT 27:3-7 The chief priests bought the field.
AC 1:16-19 Judas bought the field.

MT 27:5 Judas threw down the pieces of silver, then departed.
AC 1:18 He used the coins to buy the field.

MT 27:5 Judas hanged himself.
AC 1:18 He fell headlong, burst open, and his bowels gushed out.

MT 27:28 Jesus is given a scarlet robe (a sign of infamy).
MK 15:17, JN 19:2 A purple robe (a sign of royalty).

MT 27:46-50, MK 15:34-37 Jesus' last recorded words are: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
LK 23:46 "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit."
JN 19:30 "It is finished." (Note: Even though both MT and MK allegedly represent direct quotes and are translated similarly, the actual Greek words used for God are different. MT uses "Eli" and MK uses "Eloi.")

MT 27:48, LK 23:36, JN 19:29 Jesus was offered vinegar to drink.
MK 15:23 It was wine and myrrh, and he did not drink it.
JN 19:29-30 Whatever it was, he did drink it.

MT 28:1 The first visitors to the tomb were Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (two).
MK 16:1 Both of the above plus Salome (three).
LK 23:55 - 24:1, 24:10 Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and "other women" (at least five).
JN 20:1 Mary Magdalene only (one).

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.
MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.
LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.
JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.
1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist.
JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist.

MK 6:52 The people were so unimpressed with "the Feeding of the Multitude" that they did not even understand the event.
JN 6:14-15 They were so impressed that they tried to force Jesus to be their king.

MK 6:53 After the feeding of the 5000, Jesus and the disciples went to Gennesaret.
JN 6:17-25 They went to Capernaum.

MK 15:25 It was the third hour when Jesus was crucified.
JN 19:14-15 It was after the sixth hour since Jesus was still before Pilate and had not yet been sentenced at that time.

MK 16:14-19 The Ascension took place (presumably from a room) while the disciples were together seated at a table, probably in or near Jerusalem.
LK 24:50-51 It took place outdoors, after supper, at Bethany (near Jerusalem).
AC 1:9-12 It took place outdoors, after 40+ days, at Mt. Olivet.
MT 28:16-20 No mention is made of an ascension, but if it took place at all, it must have been from a mountain in Galilee since MT ends there.)

LK 22:3-23 Satan entered Judas before the supper.
JN 13:27 It was during the supper.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is not a post to discourage belief in Jesus, I Believe him as the Messiah, i'm just saying, there's different accounts telling slightly different details, why is one more true than the other one? why is the word of God inconsistent, while you claim it is 100% accurate?




Here are two 'verses' I made:


A: I spent the morning drinking coffee and reading the Bible. I responded to this post.

B: I responded to this post and then drank coffee and read with my partner.



There is no inherent contradiction between A and B, yet if I wanted to be hyper-literal with the text, I could say that there are contradictions.  Because in A, It appears that I responded to this post only after drinking coffee and reading the Bible.  In B, it appears that I posted before those activities.  Yet both verses can be true if you're not imposing a strict chronology onto them.

Also in A, I am alone, but in B, another person has appeared.  Again, there is no inherent contradiction, I just chose to point out different details in each verse.  Neither verse was ever meant to be a 100% complete physical description of the scene.  I am sharing different angles or pictures of my morning, just as you might notice different flakes of color in different facets of the same crystal.

A good question might be, if all this New Testament Jesus stuff is a lie, then why are numerous authors all writing about the same central events from different angles, emphasizing different details.  Why include so many supposed "contradictions" with a fabricated story meant for public consumption?

The answer is that these things really happened.  2,000 years ago Jesus did actually walk around performing miracles, was actually killed, violently, and buried in a tomb, and He really did rise from the dead, and people witnessed all of this and wrote about it. 

And just as Jesus' coming was foretold centuries before He was even born, it was foretold that you the reader, along with all the earth, would be reading about His death and resurrection. 

Thousands of years ago, the story of Jesus was destined to be known by all, and sure enough, as the New Year is 2020, the name of JESUS is exalted all over the earth, just as it is simultaneously hated by the world, as the works of darkness recognize and hate the Light.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The amazing thing about the Bible is that there is a meaning behind every single detail.  Every person, place, object, and number hold meaning.. sometimes obvious, sometimes concealed.  God's Word is like a mystical heavenly cathedral opening up with secret rooms and chambers, containing new brilliant reflections and reliefs of one majestic fractal pattern coursing throughout the whole.

I remember when I thought the Bible was just a bunch of mish-mashed stories thrown together with little rhyme or reason, when I was blind to what reality is, and who authored it.

It reminds me why Jesus himself spoke in parables, so that only those who wanted to hear the truth would receive it.  Those only looking to doubt would continue in darkness, lacking ears to hear.


If you want to doubt, God will continue to harden your heart, and you will find any excuse to doubt, no matter the evidence presented you.

However, if you want the truth, it will be given in abundance...

....Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven

Matthew 13:11


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew


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