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Sandsandy
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Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience?
#26394910 - 12/22/19 02:39 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hi philosophers, When I read Quran and listen to dmt experiences I see too many similarities. In my opinion Mohammad and people how have dmt experience, they saw the same world. These amount of similarities it is not something happened by chance. I want to hear about your opinions too.
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faoneus
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26394915 - 12/22/19 02:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I know God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush. There just so happens to be a bush endemic to Egypt that contains DMT.
In Egypt. A burning bush.
Edited by faoneus (12/22/19 02:50 AM)
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Kmacmo
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26394921 - 12/22/19 02:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Interesting stuff, I think youre right though.
That's probably how most religious books are written, while tripping balls on some shrooms or dmt.
The quran/bible (+loads more books) all have something in common, who ever wrote them all had some really potent psychodelics at hand..
Remember psychodelics were not a class A drug or even seen as taboo in those days, people knew if you ate them you'd have a good chance of actually meeting God. To a person that believes in God that must have been the highest/best moment of their life.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26394942 - 12/22/19 03:27 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Debatable for sure, can we know for certain? Probably not. I'd argue in favor of most prophets probably tripping to some extent, talking "directly with god", etc.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26394963 - 12/22/19 04:01 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with you (kmacmo) psychedelic was not class A drug. But it doesn't mean all people at that time interesed to have psychedelice experience. Because even prophets had difficulty to bring people attention toward the life after our current material life.
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26394986 - 12/22/19 05:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you watch this video in youtube: ( dmt: experiencing the impossible) You will see all of them explaining the same thing for transition from this world to another world. It starts with all material world around you destroy itself and then they travel through tunnel and finally when they reach to other side of tunnel they hear very loud sound. All these procedures are similar to quran Sura 69: Incontestable (Al-Haaqqah) [69:13] When the horn is blown once.
[69:14] The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed.
[69:15] That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass.
Maybe Mohammad when he had dmt experience he was sitting on top of mountains.
Edited by Sandsandy (12/22/19 05:22 AM)
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Lazaro
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395409 - 12/22/19 10:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's a fascinating idea that I've been hearing about lately about the Bible. The interesting thing in the Bible is how very rapidly Yavhe forbids magic, sorcery, etc.
We can believe that this would include these kind of substances as well?
Yavhé is very insistent that people believe only in him, not in other Gods. The stories in the Bible revolve heavily on the Israelis accepting other, pagan cults, like those of Canaan, and then plagues and worse coming as a consequence.
Probably psychedelics would easily allow a return to polyteism: a way to easily see other Gods, a multitude of Gods; it would make sense to forbid them.
I lack knowledge about Islam at this point.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395710 - 12/22/19 02:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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DMT never made me want to fuck a goat or an underaged girl or kill a gay or blow myself up or throw acid in a woman's face or...
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395725 - 12/22/19 02:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: Hi philosophers, When I read Quran and listen to dmt experiences I see too many similarities. In my opinion Mohammad and people how have dmt experience, they saw the same world. These amount of similarities it is not something happened by chance. I want to hear about your opinions too.
Time for the proverbial :

I'd like your opinion on this instead... And yes, the above graphic answers your question.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395734 - 12/22/19 02:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: If you watch this video in youtube: ( dmt: experiencing the impossible) You will see all of them explaining the same thing for transition from this world to another world. It starts with all material world around you destroy itself and then they travel through tunnel and finally when they reach to other side of tunnel they hear very loud sound. All these procedures are similar to quran Sura 69: Incontestable (Al-Haaqqah) [69:13] When the horn is blown once.
[69:14] The earth and the mountains will be carried off and crushed; utterly crushed.
[69:15] That is the day when the inevitable event will come to pass.
Maybe Mohammad when he had dmt experience he was sitting on top of mountains.
You're in your head... you don't travel anywhere. You're in that big brain of yours and yes it is that magical and transcendent.
As for spoopy passages, any well formed mind can make these up at will. The proverbial 'light at the end of the tunnel' adage has been around forever long before middle eastern religions (Judiasm->Christianity->Islam). People put far too much weight on these religions but its understandable given how many 'crusades' and force was placed on people to accept them. Meanwhile, in the east, they have far more transcendent and mystical traditions steeped in their religion.. Much more pure theology vs human figures preaching from the pulpit.
Was Van Gogh on DMT?

Not everything is about drugs... And taking a drug doesn't give you a magical brain. If a person huffs paint, they will see wild/transcendent things as well. Altered states are interesting but not some magical holy grail into the universe.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy] 2
#26395793 - 12/22/19 03:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I do not know why so many individuals on this forum want to reduce visionary experiences to drug "occasioned" experiences and that is all they seem to see. It is not the mechanism of these visions that are significant and which have shaped the minds of billions of people. This is materialistic reductionism. It is like a saying that is in The Yellow Book by Baba Hari Das: "When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees are his pockets." Visions are not to be understood literally. In Hebrew writings they are midrash. In Greek and Hindu writings they are mythos. In ancient Egyptian contexts they are magickal. Gnostic writings may be mythic or embody elements of magick. These are all linguistic means for the illustration of transcendental realities. The fact that certain biochemical catalysts can "occasion" visionary and more importantly mystical experiences leaves the philosophical importance of these conditions quite neglected if one looks only at the contingent minutia. One fails to see the forest for the trees. All psychological experiences have physiological/biochemical correlates, but correlation is not causation.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Lazaro]
#26395896 - 12/22/19 04:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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In Islam is the same. Unity, oneness or tawhid is the main aspect of Islam. Yes God don't like its creatures to pray toward false gods. It looks like you giving gift to someone and he says thankyou to another person. I don't want to humanize God. But in my opinion if you want to understand how God thinks you need to understand how human thinks. Because we are reflection of God.
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Sandsandy
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Your comment is full of hate. I didn't bring up this discussion in a mosque, church or Temple. I am not here to defence Islam or Moslems behavior. You have chance to experience and study new ideas please use your chance properly.
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CountHTML
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395932 - 12/22/19 04:35 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think he probably had a genuine mystical experience but like many others, came to horrible conclusions based on it.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I do not know why so many individuals on this forum want to reduce visionary experiences to drug "occasioned" experiences and that is all they seem to see. It is not the mechanism of these visions that are significant and which have shaped the minds of billions of people. This is materialistic reductionism. It is like a saying that is in The Yellow Book by Baba Hari Das: "When a pickpocket meets a saint, all he sees are his pockets." Visions are not to be understood literally. In Hebrew writings they are midrash. In Greek and Hindu writings they are mythos. In ancient Egyptian contexts they are magickal. Gnostic writings may be mythic or embody elements of magick. These are all linguistic means for the illustration of transcendental realities. The fact that certain biochemical catalysts can "occasion" visionary and more importantly mystical experiences leaves the philosophical importance of these conditions quite neglected if one looks only at the contingent minutia. One fails to see the forest for the trees. All psychological experiences have physiological/biochemical correlates, but correlation is not causation. 
Couldn't have said this better myself. Religion is metaphor, theology, and story telling across human history. It's never to be taken literally. In my opinion, it does a person a spiritual disservice to view past figures as mythical/special people. There are no special people on earth. If you want a cultivated mind and want to speak of such a mind-state, you must put in the hard work to develop it. There is a person for every day of the year that fits these popular figures of religion. How said that people marry themselves so much to the past and stories therein that they fail to see them unfolding in the present.
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26395963 - 12/22/19 04:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't care where we are going after life the thing is important is how we feel and the duration of that experience. Inside or outside both should have been created otherwise there is no existance for us to experience it. Human is not creator we can not add a law to physic laws we can not make molecular substance from nothing we can just combine them. I am not promoteing drug usage but drug facilitate the journey. You can look at it as technology which we can use it to reach our goals. It is like you want to compete in mr olampia but you don't want use any drug, it is not possible if you want become 150 kg pure muscels you need to use certain drugs. Or you want to travel 100 km in one hour without using car it is not possible. Maybe one junkie with dmt experience has more enlightment than one monk how pray for 60 years in cave.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26395978 - 12/22/19 05:07 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: In Islam is the same. Unity, oneness or tawhid is the main aspect of Islam. Yes God don't like its creatures to pray toward false gods. It looks like you giving gift to someone and he says thankyou to another person. I don't want to humanize God. But in my opinion if you want to understand how God thinks you need to understand how human thinks. Because we are reflection of God.
In broader theology and spiritual understanding, the universe and beyond is one. There is no praise for what simply 'is'. There is admiration. There is respect... and there is truth which is of account of one's opened eye experience. There's no gifts you can give that have value. You think to highly of yourself. God is not human. You are as is everything a creation of God. To say you are a reflection of good is to take a chair, composed of trillions upon trillions upon trillions of atoms, put it in front of a mirror and point out a single dynamic atom and say .. ah', what a reflection. You see nothing of the grand works of this universe so as to say you are a 'reflection' of God. You are a reflection of a spec of sand in the grand scheme of function/design. You can obtain greatness and then there will be trillions upon trillions more levels above that. So humbly strive you do. Of your praise/gifting, there is nothing more than your own pride/ego.
Religion has a long dated history. Man has been creating it, and prophets, and mystics, etc since the beginning of time. No one along the chain has the all encompassing story. Sadly, adherents literally believe this to their own spiritual folly. It helps them get through the day I guess and they make it their world because they don't want to suffer themselves to see beyond it. It is indeed why religions eventually come and go and evolve with time. The same ancient story falls way to the truth unraveling over time .. For the one grand truth is far more infinite than some snapshot account.
The world will see this in the years to come as more popular religions are ceded by truth that all eyes can see... If adherents call that grand 'reveal' revelations, so be it. Their time will come and go and the train will keep on chugging along as it has for all of history.
People think too highly of themselves and themselves far too important than what they are. This goes esp for ego minded cultural groupings. Billions of other people on earth under different languages/beliefs, billions more years to go, but people in their cultural enclaves think in their spec of a lifetime that they are the all knowing adherents to truth..

As for the cool visuals, take a look in your own history before Islam became the cool religion of the times. It's embedded in the culture/written language that predates the religion.. as is always People don't even know their own history and where they came from but want to talk about 'traces to God'.. *sigh
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Sandsandy
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In my opinion the mechanism is important. For traveling from one reality to another reality we need to pass through certain steps similar to creation of us in this world. All people in different part of world are created in the same way. The mechanism will show us it is not just imagination or bullshit story on the other hand it shows the experience has the order like our life which has the order.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396013 - 12/22/19 05:29 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: I don't care where we are going after life the thing is important is how we feel and the duration of that experience.
Everyone's got feelings like butt-holes.. There are no absolute 'feelings'. They're a dynamic toss up that can be determined by adjusting knobs. After-life/fore-life... no one knows so they make up stories. Has been occurring for all of human history. The 'east' has far more grounded/sensible theology. Religions are geographically/culturally steeped... the lore reads clearly as such. In barren deserts, people come up with fitting lore. Not the kind you'll ever find in a land of plenty. Yet, the common adherent is blind to this because they marry soo deeply to their narrow cultural lensing of the world that they think it transcends life and death... As if God himself is a white European, an Arab, jew, etc... Provincial, survival, unified force, and conquer focused. The world is going to grow beyond this enslaved cultural mindset eventually.
Quote:
Sandsandy said: Inside or outside both should have been created otherwise there is no existance for us to experience it.
Yes, there is something outside the tiny amount of time you live and die. Some trees will still be here. The earth will.. The moon. You're nobody trying to become somebody in the grand scheme of things.
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Sandsandy said: Human is not creator we can not add a law to physic laws we can not make molecular substance from nothing we can just combine them.
We are manipulators of what 'is'... correct
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Sandsandy said: I am not promoteing drug usage but drug facilitate the journey.
Drugs mainly turn up the volume and/or increase or decrease filters. Some crappy drugs just scramble brain signals and neuro-chemistry. You're on a journey regardless. Drugs don't grant you intelligence/knowledge. They grant you an increased view/more focused view/scrambled view/etc.
Once you 'return', you still have to do the hard work to make something of it. Your brain, hopefully remains in tact.. and so there you are again... If you weren't that intelligent before you still won't be after. If you weren't knowledgeable before you still wont be after.. All you get is a 'glimpse'. What you do after that is where the true 'change' comes. If you call this facilitating your journey' I'll grant you that. However, as its possible to 'supersede' the biggest druggie on earth spiritually with no drugs, drugs clearly aren't the key.. Also, as much as they can boost they can diminish... As much as they can 'build' they can break. So, this really isn't something to popularize or go mainstream with especially the lack of intelligence/awareness in the west... You'll be turning the volume up on idiocy/mental instability/dysfunction not 'awakening' people to spiritual enlightenment.. Set/setting.
For every prophet of history, there's 100 less known people with far more spiritual/theological development. The universe isn't some celebrity pageant.
Quote:
Sandsandy said: You can look at it as technology which we can use it to reach our goals. It is like you want to compete in mr olampia but you don't want use any drug, it is not possible if you want become 150 kg pure muscels you need to use certain drugs. Or you want to travel 100 km in one hour without using car it is not possible.
I don't try to 'look' so as to make up my own story. I instead try to see it for what it truly is. It turns the volume up/down in your brain and increases/decreases filters. It strengthens/messes up communication/signals.
Your brain will attempt to reason through anything thrown at it. So there you are in the passenger seat.. Seeing things in a new 'light'. You dont become some Superstar athlete. You don't become Einstein. You're just given a different ride. What you do with it esp after is what determines the outcome. Most do nothing of higher value tbqh... The people who do were already those types before.
A psychedelic can cure Alcoholism? So can someone waterboarding you till your close to death unless you stop. So can a car crash that almost ends your life... If you want to call the jarring relaxation of filters in your mind that allow you to see 'yourself' and your good/bad attributes and beyond 'technology'.. So be it. A lot of people don't need 'wake up calls' to see life/universe. They exercise that part of their brain so often that they get the realizations sober. Your one trip doesn't allow you to transcend them.. Instead, you simply got a 'glimpse' into their sober higher minded world.
Quote:
Sandsandy said: Maybe one junkie with dmt experience has more enlightment than one monk how pray for 60 years in cave.
Cool story. Sounds like a low IQ/junkie stroking their ego. They get a glimpse/taste of enlightenment and think for the short time they grasped it that they will maintain it for their waking life.. Of course, when the high/after-glow die off and thus their grip of that feeling, they're right back at the trough for another 'fix'... whereas the monk lives that daily w/ no assistance. This is the true difference between the drug junkie and a 'monk'.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396026 - 12/22/19 05:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: In my opinion the mechanism is important. For traveling from one reality to another reality we need to pass through certain steps similar to creation of us in this world. All people in different part of world are created in the same way. The mechanism will show us it is not just imagination or bullshit story on the other hand it shows the experience has the order like our life which has the order.
You brain has structure and order... that is pretty universal across human beings, if you perturb or jolt it enough, it indeed settles right back into an 'influenced' and common structure. Yes, you can tell yourself that you 'transcended' reality but in reality you only perturbed 'reality'. If I get rose tinted glasses and put them on your face, you indeed will have a common experience among most people. Did you 'transcend' (go above) reality? No, you just were given an altered view of it.
You tell yourself you 'transcended' because your ever present ego likes to reason that you made a positive/valuable choice.. You already had this decided before you went into the experience and thus carried it with you.
This is why set/setting are important going in.. It's all you, you're still in that magical head of yours, and your brain is still trying to reason/structure what it is exposed to. You have universal experiences because every has a brain just like you doing the same thing with a similar chemical perturbation.
Indeed, why not subscribe deep/positive/transcendent and magical traits to it? You want the best out of the experience you invested in heavily /took risk to have after-all?
I stand on the shoulder of giants and religion has greatly profited me in my life.. Namely because I experienced it as 'spiritual' training wheels until I gained the skill to be able to 'transcend' it on my own accord... But to race around with ancient training wheels dictating this is the one and only interpretation of the world.. Woe is you especially in ever increasing cycles of dispensations of truth/progress.
To be that dude who has a drug experience or many and just seems to bask in it, woe is you especially in ever increasing cycles of dispensations of truth/progress.
Respect the past/teachings therein. Consume and understand them. Master them. Transcend them.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx] 1
#26396139 - 12/22/19 06:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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most likely hashish, or cannabis and opium - both were available and equally endowed especially if a person practices devoutly
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26396161 - 12/22/19 06:58 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: most likely hashish, or cannabis and opium - both were available and equally endowed especially if a person practices devoutly
Yeah, I will agree that there was likely some of this involved. There's a long vein of substances of altered experience among the progressions/stories of religion dating back to animism/shamanism.
Obvious observation comes up in my mind: Indeed no particular person is special... There's tons of interesting stuff that comes from people on drugs and their experiences therein. Depending on the context and their mental aptitude going in, beautiful accounts/stories of important can come of it. Once a person has had one themselves, they can see the fingerprint in others who have.
The world is indeed 'flat' for the most part among humans.. Beyond concerted effort to cultivate your brain and cultivating experiences, there is no magic/mystery to the past. There are frontiers of it towards the future. Thus, its good to hold a little mystery/magic of the past in one's pocket... Gets the brain off on interesting thoughts of sorts thus why its such a time tested practice.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396175 - 12/22/19 07:07 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Your comment is full of hate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks
Wanting to protect one's women and have a stable society free from death cult dogma is hateful? Recognizing dangerous thought is hateful? Um, OK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26396188 - 12/22/19 07:15 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote: (Everyone's got feelings like butt-holes.. There are no absolute 'feelings'. They're a dynamic toss up that can be determined by adjusting) Butt-holes or not butt-holes this is not a problem. Maybe all our universe is one molecule of fart of a bigger creature. Dimension and time do not have meaning without reference point. We fo not know we are big or small or we are at beginning or the end. We can not achieve to everything that we want just with thinking or imagination. Why every night you want to sleep you do not have the best dream ? Maybe you have but I don't. Or can you stop aging process just by thinking you are young?
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396257 - 12/22/19 07:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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If you watch this:
My first trip on dmt (by jin yu)
When he says all cloud become into order like soldiers in the line. It is not like how Moslems stand for pray toward God. Or it is not similar to what it says in Quran surah tundar ayah 15 15. To God prostrates everyone in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows, in the morning and in the evening.
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396259 - 12/22/19 07:50 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Sandsandy said: Butt-holes or not butt-holes this is not a problem.
It is a problem if you rely solely on it. It is a problem if you rely heavily on it. It is a problem if you think your fee-fees are important especially if you 'feel' they are more important than everyone elses.
Feelings are like but-tholes in this way. You got them, I got them. Everyone has them. They are issued on birth like buttholes.
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Sandsandy said: Maybe all our universe is one molecule of fart of a bigger creature.
Maybe its not. Maybe its a simulation like simCity.. Anyone can pull anything out of their bums. It doesn't make it reality.
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Sandsandy said: Dimension and time do not have meaning without reference point. We fo not know we are big or small or we are at beginning or the end.
You know what you trouble yourself to know. Your brain fills in the rest based on what you've jammed in there.

Most people can't even reason properly about basic physics much less intelligently reason through metaphysics.. And yet, the mind tries to 'fill in the blanks' wherever it can with whatever is in it which brings us to the 'middle ground' between 'beginning' and 'end'. If you've troubled yourself to know a lot, what some declare as their mystery is a resolved/factual reality and thus you arrive upon a higher level of mystery... As does the human race with enough time/progress.
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Sandsandy said: We can not achieve to everything that we want just with thinking or imagination. Why every night you want to sleep you do not have the best dream ? Maybe you have but I don't. Or can you stop aging process just by thinking you are young?
This was my point. Everyone has feels and imaginations' like buttholes.. Someone's imagined reality of the past/present/future don't make it reality.. Religion is time captured metaphor/mystery/story telling. With enough time, reality supersedes religion and new ones are forged as placeholders for a future potential and/or as a confirmation of the nature of longer run trends.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy] 1
#26396387 - 12/22/19 09:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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This is not logical. ALL experience is a psychological phenomenon and "imagination" is of at least two types (ordinary and "Active"). Dreams are imaginative, but are, strictly speaking, not imagination. As to "bullshit," that is not a description it is an emotional response. Unless one is intentionally fabricating a story in order to deceive another, stories are not "bullshit." The content of religious myth is not random. Myth is not falsehood. Myths are depictions of universal and archetypal themes, the very infra-structure of the psyche.
I have no idea what type of "order" you are referring to. Human physiology is relatively invariant (orderly) but drug interactions are infinitely variable and they do not establish anything resembling order as far as I can tell. Neither are drug interactions definitive of what is 'real' versus psychological reality. There is a book by Heinrich Kluver entitled Mescal, and Mechanisms of Hallcination wherein he described abstract patterns that he called "form constants," but these do not encompass the complex kaleidoscopic visions that indole psychedelics elicit. However, Mescaline has been known to elicit non-abstract scenes that were filled with mythological elements. Havelock Ellis did not perseverate about the mechanism but the content. He was not a pharmacologist but a physician who wrote on sexuality contemporaneously with Sigmund Freud. https://www.mescaline.com/artificialparadise/index.html But, if that's where you're at at this point we just value these phenomena differently.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Sandsandy
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For me order is certain stages which everyone go through it. For example human development start with infancy then become childhood after that adolescent and next stage is adulthood and the last stage is old age. And no one can change this order. In dmt experience there is a order as well it starts with material world around the person who has the dmt experience, destroy itself and then they travel into the tunnel, and on the otherside of tunnel they hear loud sound and in the distance they see light. In most of dmt experience these stages can be seen.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26396626 - 12/23/19 01:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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r00tcmplx said: Most people can't even reason properly about basic physics much less intelligently reason through metaphysics.. And yet, the mind tries to 'fill in the blanks' wherever it can with whatever is in it which brings us to the 'middle ground' between 'beginning' and 'end'. If you've troubled yourself to know a lot, what some declare as their mystery is a resolved/factual reality and thus you arrive upon a higher level of mystery... As does the human race with enough time/progress.
Finally. This is the single-best post by any member on here in months. PM me when you get this please. We have much to discuss.
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26396630 - 12/23/19 01:14 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here I am not talking about any religion. My question is that do you think Quran and dmt experiences have similarities or no? If you didn't read the Quran please read it if you didn't listen to dmt experiences please listen. I am not here to judge any religion or god, we have two documents one is Quran from past and the other one is people experience we want to compare them.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26396660 - 12/23/19 01:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I recognize that certain radical alterations of consciousness have commonalities. DMT, of which I had only one experience, is one such example. The "machine elves" for example or insectoid entities (perhaps these are the same phenomena described with different idioms) are part of the flora & fauna of those experiences. I had a classic astral projection once. It seems I re-entered through my Navel Center but unlike other people's recorded journey I never saw an astral umbilical cord. Yet, 'out' was followed by re-entry. Near Death Experiences (NDE) often have a tunnel motif. All of these radical shifts are shifts in human consciousness yet we cannot know if they reveal metaphysical truths or whether these are just more subtle experiences of the yet living human being's psyche and are not glimpses into developmental stages beyond bodily existence.
Religious writings can be interpreted on levels, not stages. One exegetical method is called PaRDeS (PRDS) in Hebrew but the method can be applied to any religious writings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis) Ken Wilber, while not trained as a developmentalist has some fairly brilliant developmental schemes way beyond the limits that the discipline of Human Development acknowledges. My own PhD is in Human Development and Clinical Psych, but I took degrees in philosophy and in theology so I quite appreciate how Wilber has brought these disciplines together in his writings. And, as the now late great Baba Ram Dass (who died yesterday ) said in his Magnum Opus Remember: Be Here Now, "...it is an unfolding process..."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
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Teachers I admire have claimed that there are no such levels, but rather that people are in different places. The difference is complex and so it is best not to use levels with regard to spirituality, as that introduces comparisons - missing the whole point of understanding what is happening spiritually.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26397344 - 12/23/19 12:18 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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redgreenvines said: Teachers I admire have claimed that there are no such levels, but rather that people are in different places. The difference is complex and so it is best not to use levels with regard to spirituality, as that introduces comparisons - missing the whole point of understanding what is happening spiritually.
My own experience confirms those Gnostics who categorized 3 levels of human beings: Hylics/Sarkics, Psychichoi, Pneumaticoi. That is, those people who are materialists (sarx means 'flesh') and who identify with their body and the life of the senses, those people who possess varying degrees of faith based largely on the words of their religious scriptures, and those people who may still have faith but who have been blessed with some Experience that resulted in what is sometimes called 'assurance' in Protestant Christianity. These are the people who have experienced Gnosis, Knowing directly.
The denial of differences may be an attempt to equalize, much like ideological Marxists want to do by the elimination of classes in society. But taxonomizing, while it can be misused in the service of prejudice and oppression can also be used to help. In mental health professions it is important to discern what type of psychosis is ill-affecting a sufferer. Is is a Bipolar hypermania or a Schizophrenic paranoid delusion causing all the hullabaloo? Proper diagnosis is necessary for correct treatment approaches. Meanwhile, ALL sufferers need to be treated kindly regardless of their mental disorder. ALL people need to be treated, as Ram Dass (may he rest in peace) like they are "God in drag." Regardless of this, it is clear that one will find levels and while there is 'upward mobility' there is also 'back-sliding.' The late Icelander was a spiritual seeker like myself (he and I were the same age) and he spent time in a Yoga ashram. Then the deceptions and disenchantment and finally aversiveness to spirituality set in for several decades. In the end he began to PM me about Gnostic religion, asking for reading sites and finding certain agreements with what he was reading (although he was not specific).
There is variability in one's spiritual glow, just like the star Betelgeuse in the constellation of Orion, which has been fairly dim from our view since October). Electrons drop to a 'shell' closer to the nucleus of the atom to which they belong and emit energy in the process. Some people remain basically materialistic their entire lives, like my own late mother. Needy for attention, she used to listen to me when I lived at home again during my seminary years (never really considering anything I was saying, just enjoying the attention) but at the end of her life when I suggested that there might be light instead of darkness she became quite agitated and upset at the suggestion because the possibility of Something instead of Nothing seemed to negate a life-long 'belief,' or perhaps I should say disbelief. The gnosis that I now possess about Ultimate Reality is best said by Socrates who allegedly said "All I know is that I know nothing." But what I know about the people I meet suggests what in the field of Parapsychology are referred to as 'sheep and goats,' 'believers' and non-believers. Among the former category is the sub-category of those who have experienced a Psi function themselves. These 'levels' are difficult not to see.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26398025 - 12/23/19 05:52 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sandsandy said: For me order is certain stages which everyone go through it. For example human development start with infancy then become childhood after that adolescent and next stage is adulthood and the last stage is old age. And no one can change this order. In dmt experience there is a order as well it starts with material world around the person who has the dmt experience, destroy itself and then they travel into the tunnel, and on the otherside of tunnel they hear loud sound and in the distance they see light. In most of dmt experience these stages can be seen.
Most people just bask in the human experience. Few are truly attempting to understand it. How long have psychedelics been around and how many trip reports are there? 1000s of conversations pacing over the same ground. How many forums? How many posts here? Where's the utopic oneness after one's magical third eye is opened? It's nowhere... Because, all you're doing is taking a trip in your own head. You're not magically swooping around the universe, talking with god or angels/demons. You're at the seat of your own mind... your subconscious.. Your experiences.. Your memories.. and when you come back, no matter how hard you try or how much you think you've changed : You're still (YOU). And if you want to change that, you have to put in work in the real world.
What is most sad about this going into 2020 is that there are all of these people in their separate camps and few trying to bring anything together.. You got mathematicians and all they wanna talk about is math. Philosophers, all they wanna do is sit around talking about abstractions they never spend any time trying to 'construct' something with. The scientists busy themselves with bogus theories/conjectures/formulations with few exception. The engineer too busy spinning out the latest data hovering product that ruins society to have any time to sit still and think of something great to create. The occasional/too occasional drug user lost in the proverbial sauce. The spiritual person in their silo community with their heads in the clouds.. The great earth and reality suffering meanwhile because there is no collective and broad cohesion across tightly related abstractions.
The average person.. forget about it. Their brains are mush, filled with propaganda, fake news, low IQ, willful ignorance... Has an opinion on everything underneath the son and has no clue what their talking about. Latches on to religion because it gives them purpose, direction, hope, and community but too dishonest to admit it. Fighting in the name of their 'God' and beliefs as if that's a higher calling.
Not informed on anything besides what gratifies them and their 9-5. Voting for whatever sounds best for their own sake.
Back to the OP, Did Mohammad have a dmt experience? So what if he did? A lot of people here have had psychedelics. It's not magic. It's a MIND ALTERING substance. That's it. No magic sleigh ride to meet God. General anesthesia works the same way on everyone because WE ALL HAVE pretty much the same type of brain and chemistry therein.
Instead of trying to find a tv dinner answer and solution to life, how about everyone be true to themselves and admit who they are and what they actually put effort into becoming. You played with some drugs that altered your brain chemistry for a while and let you see some things? Cool, and what did you learn from it? And what changes did you make to your life? And how are you ensuring those changes don't revert? And what are you manifesting in the world as a result? And who are you seeking to become?
Who cares what somebody did a thousand years ago... THEY ARE JUST HUMAN BEINGS .. doing exactly what you're doing.. Living life. I have epiphanies. I have my own philosophies. I have my own theories. I have my own revelations... Nobody's special. Not me, you, or any human being whose ever walked this earth. As for Ayys, point me to one that Everybody on earth has witnessed? Can't? Well, until then, they simply don't exist and are a figment of your imagination. Do you want to theorize about a potential God and how they created the universe, the laws, and purpose? Cool, lets have a conversation about that.
But talking about whether some dead dude who wrote some things in a book took drugs?

What's gained from this conversation? Go read a more current DMT drug report... The dude had the same cool visuals as you? Cool bro... And what are you doing with that?
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r00tcmplx
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26398100 - 12/23/19 06:40 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sandsandy said: Here I am not talking about any religion. My question is that do you think Quran and dmt experiences have similarities or no?
Yes/No.. It doesn't matter. I will never know 100% because the creators of it are dead and their stories buried with them. Religion has a long dated history of drug usage for 'visions'. This goes back 10s of thousands of years before there was Hebrew/Arabic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
I posted a chart showing the history of religion. Why not spend some time researching it? Hebrew/Arabic aren't original languages. They aren't original cultures. The creator of the universe didn't give either a special message. Same goes for all religions. Religions are cultural theology. They are written in native tongues of people/society. There is no universal language across all human beings. There is no universal religion. No universal experience. ART/pictures/observations can be made without drugs. They can be made without religion.
Arabic culture predates Islam. Arabic language predates Islam. Arabic art predates 'muh prophet' and Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic
So, again, why do I care about some ancient dude's trip report? How many trip reports are there? Shamans were doing this 10's of thousands of years before Judiasm->Christianity->Islam existed. Are you looking at cave drawings of Animals and asking if they were Tripping?
Let me post this for the 100th time :

Find Islam on the chart. Look to the left. Note the year.. Now go down the timeline.
ISLAM IS not an original religion. None of them are. The earliest is animism which is literally primitive human beings reasoning about abstracting their characteristics and projecting them onto animals. Ah, you are like snake.. sneaky Ah, you have a lion spirit.. tough
are drugs involved in every insight? God... Spirits and ish'? No man, get your head out your butt.
Open your third eye for God's sake People are running around rambling about religion... It's 2019 dude. We have information now as to the history of human beings and religion. You still gonna keep telling yourself after a DMT experience? That such a garbage foolishness is TRUTH? Obviously DMT/psychedelics really don't do much transcendence. All they do is amplify who you already are regardless of if you're truly aware of that or not.
People take them, alter their mind and its so different often from their day-to-day that they think they've experienced magic. It's not dude. But I saw God.. No you didn't dude. But I saw light bro.. Yeah, it was probably your optic nerve spazzing the fuck out. Once the boys at Hopkins due current studies, they'll likely prove this. But of course, a low IQ person is going to keep telling themselves its something different.. because of course your big brain knows better than Science (The truth that God puts in front of you as plain as day)
Arabic art isn't due to drugs. Nature produces fractals :


Big brains see patterns/math and draw up their own inspired versions. The visuals you see in temples relates to ARABIC culture. The written language itself is an art-form. The stuff you see in temples relates to math/fractals and arabic culture.
Buddhist create similar temples based on math/fractals :
 Hindus :

You name it. You're not special. Arabs aren't special. Islam isn't special. Get over it.
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Sandsandy said: If you didn't read the Quran please read it
I already have.. All 3 Popular middle-eastern religions derive from earlier religions of the region. They're all derivative/cultural amalgamations. Jews forked theirs so they could convince people to form a tribe and a collective so they were stronger. Europe forked theirs so they could try to fix Rome and bring the plebs under one roof. Arabs formed theres because things weren't looking kinda scary with all of these other empires strengthening around them.
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Sandsandy said: if you didn't listen to dmt experiences please listen. I am not here to judge any religion or god, we have two documents one is Quran from past and the other one is people experience we want to compare them.
I'm in search of God in its purest and most truthful form. I build upon a collection of religious stories of time's past to form a blurry picture.. I refine that picture in my mind's eye. I don't need to listen to someone else's trip report. I've gone over enough. My conclusion : big brains conceive of big things.. Small brains see cool visuals they don't understand. You had a cool experience taking a mind altering drug? congrats, that's the point and how it works. Your brain is a sensitive system. If you perturb it enough, you're going to have an altered experience. In that experience your mind will piece together what it can.. THE END
You didn't talk to God. You didn't travel across the universe on a spirit sled. You were in your own head. But but.. my experience was similar to others Ofc it was, you have almost identical brains/brain structure.
My theory is that these class of drugs are going to be more widely available to people in the future.. Instead of 'awakening their third eye', it's going to stupefy them and bring them down even further. This is kind of why it was bottled up back in the day. There was no conspiracy to keep people alseep... The govt just feared what a bunch of LOW iQ people would do if they truly thought they were awakened Gods and rightfully so. While it was great for people of sound mind/intellect, it's clear how much of a clownshow is created when this gets in the hands of an average person. A DMT trip is likely fucking up your brain chemistry with such an unnatural dose of DMT that you quite literally are experiencing death.. Go up to a computer and start altering random bits in it and see what happens. Your brain is similar except it is constantly attempting to error correct and solidify patterns.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00536/full Go read about the chemical DMT. GO read about receptor sites in the brain related to this compound. Go read white papers that explain what's going on. Stop trying to find answers in rando's trip reports and ancient religions. You're fishing for answers that aren't there. This is one of the reasons I don't advocate these class of drugs becoming wide spread. Certain minds aren't meant for it which is why it was reserved for Shamans primarily in the past and spiritual gurus to help translate the experience to people constructively. Now every yahoo thinks they can pop a pill and become enlightened. What's going to happen instead now is that, now that media/perception are so mastered and people are so alseep, they're going to flood society with them and really take what remains of people's mush brains.
There's a reason why all the dog crap album art has psychedelic depictions, commercials, medias, shows.. Hell even taco bell commercials are in on it :
^this is the drug society you live in.. And people are trying to find out as they tattoo their bodies with random idiocy, color their hair, pierce very part of their body .. Meme/LARP ancient/older culture if Muh boy Muhamad was on DMT because man that's some meta thinking and trippy art fam.. He had to be on somethin...

God help you all in the years to come
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: I recognize that certain radical alterations of consciousness have commonalities. DMT, of which I had only one experience, is one such example. The "machine elves" for example or insectoid entities (perhaps these are the same phenomena described with different idioms) are part of the flora & fauna of those experiences. "
The spoopy classic clockwerk elves/reptiles are nothing more than you personifying your subconscious. It's ofc a lower mind state, so you attribute animal like traits to it as you're exposed.
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MarkostheGnostic said: I had a classic astral projection once. It seems I re-entered through my Navel Center but unlike other people's recorded journey I never saw an astral umbilical cord. Yet, 'out' was followed by re-entry. Near Death Experiences (NDE) often have a tunnel motif. All of these radical shifts are shifts in human consciousness yet we cannot know if they reveal metaphysical truths or whether these are just more subtle experiences of the yet living human being's psyche and are not glimpses into developmental stages beyond bodily existence.
Nothing more than your consciousness shifting around looking for equilibrium after you've royally messed it up by altering your brain chemistry so drastically. Light at the end of tunnel/tunnel relate to properties of your optic nerve and its delicate nature. When you close your eyes and go to sleep at night and dream, it's akin to the same thing.. Vision gets cut and you retreat into your head. So, yet again, you've royally fucked something in your brain to cause that 'toggle' switch to flip over. The boys at Hopkins/other universities are no doubt going to crack and reveal this in the years to come.. Next will come the great pharma push for using these drugs for just about everything under the sun especially the already fucked up minds that society has created... Coupled with a deep scientific understanding of how these things function, the average person doesn't stand a chance. There are going to be all types of recreational 'mood adjustment'/perception/cognitive adjustment variants that will be legalized... And its going to put people further to sleep and addicted to the mundane human experience.
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MarkostheGnostic said: My own PhD is in Human Development and Clinical Psych, but I took degrees in philosophy and in theology so I quite appreciate how Wilber has brought these disciplines together in his writings. And, as the now late great Baba Ram Dass (who died yesterday ) said in his Magnum Opus Remember: Be Here Now, "...it is an unfolding process..."
And where do you honestly and truly believe society is going with the current trends? Nothing points to broad based enlightenment especially with the current norms and drug culture every present... Just like it become a sh*t show in the 70s.. Except this time pharma/corporations are going to be along for the ride.
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26398621 - 12/24/19 05:03 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote: r00tcmplx said:
You name it. You're not special. Arabs aren't special. Islam isn't special. Get over it.
You are right. In my opinion religions are like diet. They depend on culture and environment. And no one can say which diet is best diet. Some people have high carb diet some low carb, some high protein, some are vegetarian and all of them can be healthy. But I don't talk about religions. In my opinion people how have dmt experience they see another world because they see new geometry which they can not explain it. If you gather all your knowledge even knowledge in your butt still you can not create new geometry because human is not creator. Creator is someone can give existence to something from nothing this is a definition of creator. I think you believe on evolution because of that you want to link everything to human mind. Even if evolution is right, it programmed with higher power. This world has engineer. When people in dmt experience they see waiting room what do you think about it maybe you think human subconscious like waiting room? Is not similar to this ayah:
Surah 23 Al-Mu'minun, Ayat 99-100
(23:99) (They shall persist in their deeds) until when death comes to anyone of them he will say: "My Lord, send me back to the world89 (23:100) that I have left behind. I am likely to do good."Nay, it is merely a word that he is uttering.There is a barrier behind all of them (who are dead) until the Day when they will be raised up.
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26398623 - 12/24/19 05:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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God help you all in the years to come
Same to you.
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redgreenvines
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@markosTG, the 3 types that are referenced in the gnostic culture support mental develoment within the gnostic framework. frameworks are useful, but never comprehensive, by definition, they put a box around a subset of reality. this can be usefull but only in a limited way.
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Kmacmo
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26398836 - 12/24/19 08:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Probably just some story that got out of hand and grew a few extra limbs and got massively obese over the years... People like to add own their own bits to a story and over time it is no longer comparable to the original story.
Religion is taught through your environment, mostly forced (easy for a parent to make their kids believe anything they want them to believe... If my parents told me there's a land where it rains chocolate 24/7... I would have no choice but to believe them until I grow tall enough to use the damn computer and find the real facts. Why is it Pakistan is majority Muslim, America mostly christian, Mexico Christian, Argentina Christian.
Understandable though some country's you get killed for your beliefs, some country's you get disowned by the family... Both just as bad so it's easyer to just go with it and not be a problem child
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26399080 - 12/24/19 12:31 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Like transitives and substantives, language divides becoming from being when both may be unified in a non-dualist idiom. But yeah, we all cubby-hole people at times if we're not careful. I do not converse with people in real-time over these things and avoid socializing with hylics since our communication can only remain at superficial levels.
The Psychichoi are the Christians/Jews/Muslims who have faith but who rarely become friends on a level bellow the superficial because they must constantly avoid the contradictions in their 'beliefs.' (Christian: 'Jesus was crucified.' - Muslim: 'Allah would not have allowed one of His prophets to hang upon a tree so Isa was NOT crucified.') For those committed 'believers' of different faiths who can be friends, they must avoid intellectual conversations or simply make a ground rule to agree to disagree. As I have written on this forum before, I have known 'believers' who were truly delusional, whose sacrificium intellectus was not proof of their devotion to holy scriptures but utter failures in their ability to hold faith and reason in balance. (The Sun is not the size of a basketball and stars cannot fall to earth, your interpretation needs to change). Religious relatives tend to avoid me (fundamentalist Christians do NOT like the Gothic or Eastern art in my home), and [fortunately] I am no longer proselytized to by the Orthodox Jews who live on my block since bringing a couple into my library.
As to the Pneumatichoi, this pertains to a level of enlightened intellectual and to a certain extent spiritual openness where the gnosis included knowing that intellectual, doctrinal, God-concepts is NOT the basis of Reality. Such individuals can only be aware of the myths and doctrines while Knowing that we cannot Know the Truth (Reality) intellectually. I do place myself in this category but it is not as pretentious as it seems. My unpublished book about sainthood also places this term within reach of many more people than the Catholic or Orthodox churches would ever allow. There are many people whose lives have been so altered by an Experience that they endeavor towards increasing their ability to be compassionate to humans, animals, insects and plant life as a result.
Given these parameters, there really are limited transitional situations except getting kinder or less kind. It's a matter of praxis, these categories are fluid but slow-moving fluidity like window glass that gets thicker at the bottom after a very long time from downward flow of an "amorphous solid."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
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that can work for you but it is part of a private language, meant for a quest such as yours. persoanlly, I don't want to classify people into us and them or other, I am at a raw place and it is changing continuously.
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Marius
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26400138 - 12/25/19 07:20 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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So no matter how you slice it when you're high on DMT or acid or whatever you have a higher capacity for objectivity or subjectivity.
Muhammad was extremely objective and aspects of the religion he revealed were extremely objective. The only correlation that exists between Islam and DMT is an objective experience of reality, and as a goat farmer in 700ce who revealed the best book of poetry, law, philosophy, ethics, and reason by literally every metric I doubt he could've done it in the familiar realms of causality.
It's unlikely though that you'd accept this as truth, and the book written in 700CE also said you'd reject it 1400 years later.
quran.com/2/6
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Marius
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26400146 - 12/25/19 07:38 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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redgreenvines said: most likely hashish, or cannabis and opium - both were available and equally endowed especially if a person practices devoutly
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r00tcmplx said:
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redgreenvines said: most likely hashish, or cannabis and opium - both were available and equally endowed especially if a person practices devoutly
Yeah, I will agree that there was likely some of this involved. There's a long vein of substances of altered experience among the progressions/stories of religion dating back to animism/shamanism.
Obvious observation comes up in my mind: Indeed no particular person is special... There's tons of interesting stuff that comes from people on drugs and their experiences therein. Depending on the context and their mental aptitude going in, beautiful accounts/stories of important can come of it. Once a person has had one themselves, they can see the fingerprint in others who have.
The world is indeed 'flat' for the most part among humans.. Beyond concerted effort to cultivate your brain and cultivating experiences, there is no magic/mystery to the past. There are frontiers of it towards the future. Thus, its good to hold a little mystery/magic of the past in one's pocket... Gets the brain off on interesting thoughts of sorts thus why its such a time tested practice.
Why is it Muhammad's life is literally the most documented life ever through transmitted accounts by peasants, kings, and everything inbetween but for some reason literally never has he ever been reported to have taken drugs of any sort? Not to mention even at the height of Muhammads power it's well document he went for days without eating, starving, and slept in a mud house. Near his death, he even pawned a set of his armour to afford wheat. How could he possibly afford silk road hashish?
Honestly I think it's hilarious your retard monkey brain is in such lockdown mode in regards to your addiction to drugs you think you could possibly have come up with something like the Quran with nothing but the worthless drugs you take every day, and clearly not out of reason but probably out of a subconscious drive to protect your addiction which your personality is likely based around at this point.
The Quran was spoken, it was revealed primarily in the format of Muhammad answering questions, verses werent revealed in a specific sequence rather dozens of chapters would be being revealed at a time and the order in which you recite verses during prayer was according to these chapters. I invite you to write a book with nothing but your stank ass weed or cow turd caps like that, and not with a pen or paper either just memorize the entire thing.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26400543 - 12/25/19 02:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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redgreenvines said: that can work for you but it is part of a private language, meant for a quest such as yours. persoanlly, I don't want to classify people into us and them or other, I am at a raw place and it is changing continuously.
Just FYI: My "quest" in Gnostic religion and its attendant pessimism was for me a Near Eastern transition from a Far Eastern philosophical stance I once had, but both were strict dualisms of spirit and matter. I also held a similar Neoplatonist world-view (Plotinus' "flight of the alone to the Alone"). Once I left the ivory tower of undergraduate studies for the ivory tower of theological studies I thought it was more realistic if I could integrate myself into a Western spiritual tradition. I never could find a faith community that I felt at home in (lots of stories there).
While temperamentally a pessimist I no longer hold such a philosophical disparagement of existence. Now it is just the psychological reaction towards the vicissitudes life and aging rather than a metaphysical mindset blaming the Creator (or a dualistic Demiurgic Creator). So now I am more Kabbalistic working towards the Restoration (Tikkun) of a broken world beginning with whatever human suffering I can alleviate instead of a flight from the world. The central stance is Compassion. My life was unhappy for many years and so I disparaged existence deeming it evil at one point. I now prefer to defy my constitutional pessimism and try to accept that creation is good and the universe is purposeful. These values may be a projection of how I choose to regard myself. Had I been less temperamentally AND correspondingly, philosophically pessimistic I might have considered becoming a father and then I would've avoided marrying the non-nurturing woman I married in my youth. 
Categorization does not have to be a form of judgement but more of a 'sorting' of simple observation. As Ram Dass pointed out in BE HERE NOW few people he said failed to appreciate that he had a discriminating mind. This does not mean that he discriminated against people! Like Myers-Briggs types it is helpful to 'size someone up' in order to better communicate with them. I remember when my wife realized this and afterwards she was a better INTP to deal with her very different ISFJ mum. Affectively I do not classify people. I lead with friendliness. But cognitively I need to know who I'm communicating with so as not to presume or assume anything.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Brian Jones
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26400916 - 12/25/19 07:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't read the whole thread, but, since DMT was synthesized in the 20th century and only naturally occurs in South America, that seems to lower the odds of Mohammad having had a DMT experience. IDK. Maybe he went there on vacation.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26401178 - 12/26/19 04:45 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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You are right. But I do not mean he found meth pipe and smoked changa. My question is the life after death which Mohammad explained in Quran, is the same with the world people how have dmt experience are going? In the simple words Quran and dmt experiences both are coming from same dimension (world)?
Edited by Sandsandy (12/26/19 05:07 AM)
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Sandsandy
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Marius]
#26401186 - 12/26/19 05:06 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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By saying something is holy it doesn't become holy. You should have reasons for your claim. Why I should accept there is life after this life in the way which explained in quran?
Some people saying after death we become part of universe we will experience how to be object. Another group are saying after death our soul will appear in another human body. Some people are saying we will become animal. How you can say they are not right? Have you seen the life after death?
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redgreenvines
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26401200 - 12/26/19 05:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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mind spawn, sure, it's all mental energy. with religion, memes seem to spread, usually on the energy of suffering, often mixed with hate or xenophobia.
pitted against the other, religious forms take on culturally pure shapes.
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Marius
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26401252 - 12/26/19 07:17 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sandsandy said: By saying something is holy it doesn't become holy. You should have reasons for your claim. Why I should accept there is life after this life in the way which explained in quran?
Some people saying after death we become part of universe we will experience how to be object. Another group are saying after death our soul will appear in another human body. Some people are saying we will become animal. How you can say they are not right? Have you seen the life after death?
I never claimed Quran is holy, I did however say that it's simply not possible for a human to come up with especially 1400 years ago.
I also never claimed to know what happens when we die, but it seems like you really want to talk about that so I'll roll with it.
You'll see what you did during your life when you die, and anyone who believes any form of afterlife can agree with this surely. The actions you did, and the way they propagated and echoed into the future to effect billions upon trillions of lives, will be placed in front of you and how you feel after that is pretty much natural. Reincarnated as a dog? Eternal hellfire? Dissolving into the Earth? I don't know for certain what's planned for everyone in the next life but we should agree that just like everything that happens here it'll be exactly what we want.
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r00tcmplx
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said: that can work for you but it is part of a private language, meant for a quest such as yours. persoanlly, I don't want to classify people into us and them or other, I am at a raw place and it is changing continuously.
Just FYI: My "quest" in Gnostic religion and its attendant pessimism was for me a Near Eastern transition from a Far Eastern philosophical stance I once had, but both were strict dualisms of spirit and matter. I also held a similar Neoplatonist world-view (Plotinus' "flight of the alone to the Alone"). Once I left the ivory tower of undergraduate studies for the ivory tower of theological studies I thought it was more realistic if I could integrate myself into a Western spiritual tradition. I never could find a faith community that I felt at home in (lots of stories there).
While temperamentally a pessimist I no longer hold such a philosophical disparagement of existence. Now it is just the psychological reaction towards the vicissitudes life and aging rather than a metaphysical mindset blaming the Creator (or a dualistic Demiurgic Creator). So now I am more Kabbalistic working towards the Restoration (Tikkun) of a broken world beginning with whatever human suffering I can alleviate instead of a flight from the world. The central stance is Compassion. My life was unhappy for many years and so I disparaged existence deeming it evil at one point. I now prefer to defy my constitutional pessimism and try to accept that creation is good and the universe is purposeful. These values may be a projection of how I choose to regard myself. Had I been less temperamentally AND correspondingly, philosophically pessimistic I might have considered becoming a father and then I would've avoided marrying the non-nurturing woman I married in my youth. 
Categorization does not have to be a form of judgement but more of a 'sorting' of simple observation. As Ram Dass pointed out in BE HERE NOW few people he said failed to appreciate that he had a discriminating mind. This does not mean that he discriminated against people! Like Myers-Briggs types it is helpful to 'size someone up' in order to better communicate with them. I remember when my wife realized this and afterwards she was a better INTP to deal with her very different ISFJ mum. Affectively I do not classify people. I lead with friendliness. But cognitively I need to know who I'm communicating with so as not to presume or assume anything.
You're quite elusive to elicit a response from but I feel the need to inquire nonetheless...
What do you feel will come of Man's stride into a more intimate and correct knowledge of their existence, nature, and creation via their own 'ultimate' creation?
Whereas humanity remains still so dis-jointly/cultural tied to a more ultimate truth, what occurs when the connectivity of thought/conceptualization is more absolutely revealed and connected across time?
Nonetheless, what is simply is and what is to be will be. However, what are you 'spiritual' thoughts on the matter?
When man is drawn to a light that is representational across language?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx]
#26402298 - 12/27/19 12:04 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I do not understand your question. I do not know what "'ultimate' creation" means. I do not have "'spiritual' thoughts" on the future. The categories of spirituality and thought are two different conditions, the former being an essentially intuitive, perceptive, and trans-rational (non-thought) awareness characterized by unification of mental processes. Conversely, the thinking mind on the other hand is discursive ("proceeding by argument or reasoning rather than by intuition"), analytical, and discriminating.
This is why more than after four decades after seminary I find theology to be a completely false endeavor designed to placate the thinking mind which demands rational answers to non-rational questions. Theology is 'spiritual thinking' and as I said the two words denote categories as separate as oil and water. The more 'spiritual' one becomes the more simple one's thoughts become regarding spirituality because (1) analytical thinking about transcendental mysteries is abandoned, (2) the thinking mind realizes that it is incapable of providing satisfactory intellectual answers about 'spirit', and (3) human spirituality has more to do with compassion and empathy than with thinking.
I am not being elusive. Perhaps seeking '"spiritual' thinking" from me is trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Perhaps you are looking for intellectual input instead of input from the obviousness of direct experience of one's existence. The intellectual is dark, vague, lower-dimensional shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. The illuminated actual, higher-dimensional realities are known directly unmediated by shadowy representations. As the bibliography at the end of the book BE HERE NOW begins, "Painted Cakes Do Not Satisfy Hunger." In other words, words, ideas are not ultimately fulfilling. There is knowing about something and there is Knowing something directly and experientially. As the Gestalt therapist Fritz Perls said, "Lose your mind and come to your senses."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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r00tcmplx
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MarkostheGnostic said: I do not understand your question. I do not know what "'ultimate' creation" means. I do not have "'spiritual' thoughts" on the future. The categories of spirituality and thought are two different conditions, the former being an essentially intuitive, perceptive, and trans-rational (non-thought) awareness characterized by unification of mental processes. Conversely, the thinking mind on the other hand is discursive ("proceeding by argument or reasoning rather than by intuition"), analytical, and discriminating.
This is why more than after four decades after seminary I find theology to be a completely false endeavor designed to placate the thinking mind which demands rational answers to non-rational questions. Theology is 'spiritual thinking' and as I said the two words denote categories as separate as oil and water. The more 'spiritual' one becomes the more simple one's thoughts become regarding spirituality because (1) analytical thinking about transcendental mysteries is abandoned, (2) the thinking mind realizes that it is incapable of providing satisfactory intellectual answers about 'spirit', and (3) human spirituality has more to do with compassion and empathy than with thinking.
I am not being elusive. Perhaps seeking '"spiritual' thinking" from me is trying to squeeze blood from a stone. Perhaps you are looking for intellectual input instead of input from the obviousness of direct experience of one's existence. The intellectual is dark, vague, lower-dimensional shadows on the wall of Plato's cave. The illuminated actual, higher-dimensional realities are known directly unmediated by shadowy representations. As the bibliography at the end of the book BE HERE NOW begins, "Painted Cakes Do Not Satisfy Hunger." In other words, words, ideas are not ultimately fulfilling. There is knowing about something and there is Knowing something directly and experientially. As the Gestalt therapist Fritz Perls said, "Lose your mind and come to your senses."
I was eluding to there being an unspoken scientific understanding of the phenomenon you and many others refer to in rather abstract terms. A sound enough understanding such that there will an instantiation of it in a new alternative form. Of course every human being has their own romantic ruminations of what I speak of and as you detail. However, I was speaking moreso of a coming manifestation of it in a real world artificial abstraction and no there isn't anything in this known universe that prevents it. A rather interesting understanding as it draws in part from the many repeated mystical mantras of a time's past.
Of course thinking with one's intellect and having a targeted goal in mind, the many 'mysteries' of a time's past reveal and speak deeply of the 'blueprint' one is after. Just curious if such a well 'traveled' person as yourself is aware of such things or if the thought ever crossed your mind.
Hoping to gather a personal framing as we close out the year. As man is forged into a new artificial form, what are you thoughts/feelings on that? How would you feel if the understanding came from the many schools of 'mystery'?
Edited by r00tcmplx (12/27/19 02:47 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: r00tcmplx] 1
#26403550 - 12/27/19 07:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not psychic or spiritual phenomena, or in a word, consciousness. All that can be approached by the scientific method is the brain which has a unique correspondence with mind. But I do not equate mind with matter, and science has nothing pertinent to say about mind because being non-physical it can not be quantified. Your expression "real world artificial abstraction" seems oxymoronic to me, contradictory. Mystical experience cannot be translated into science without reductionism which destroys it. Reductionism violates Victor Frankl's rules of "Dimensional Ontology" wherein projecting a reality onto lesser dimensions yields contradictory and inaccurate results:

Clearly a 3-D solid cylinder is more than a 2-D circle and rectangle.
Models ("blueprints?") are tools that can be applied to different endeavors. For example Will Parfitt demonstrated a scheme whereby he corresponded the 10 spheres on the Qabbalistic Tree with the 7 chakras of Hindu Yoga, AND showed the phenomenological correspondences. The 3 pillars on the Tree are shown to correspond with the 3 spinal pathways in the yogic model (Solar-Pingala-Severity, Lunar-Ida-Mercy, Sushumna-Middle Pillar). But each model has its own virtues. The Tibetan Buddhist model has its unique virtues as does the Chinese Taoist system. The foci are on different aspects of existence and Being.
The direction of humanity is from "the natural man" to the "inner man" as Paul described in his letters which became biblical writ, a movement from the natural to the spiritual, the physical to the metaphysical, not the natural to the "artificial." I endeavored long and hard to become comfortable in my own skin while rising above the demands of the appetitive soul. I do not relish the replacement of my natural parts by artificial mesh in my hernia repair, the plastic intra-occular lens instead of the natural lens in my eye, the Titanium stud supporting a dental implant, or even my dependence on reading and driving eye glasses but I do appreciate them. I simply hope for no more artificial aids and I draw the line at ventilator-existence.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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r00tcmplx
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MarkostheGnostic said: Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not psychic or spiritual phenomena, or in a word, consciousness.
Everything is everything ultimately. I speak not of textbook definitions but from a uniquely higher viewpoint.
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MarkostheGnostic said: All that can be approached by the scientific method is the brain which has a unique correspondence with mind. But I do not equate mind with matter, and science has nothing pertinent to say about mind because being non-physical it can not be quantified. Your expression "real world artificial abstraction" seems oxymoronic to me, contradictory. Mystical experience cannot be translated into science without reductionism which destroys it. Reductionism violates Victor Frankl's rules of "Dimensional Ontology" wherein projecting a reality onto lesser dimensions yields contradictory and inaccurate results:

Clearly a 3-D solid cylinder is more than a 2-D circle and rectangle.
Shine a light from all possible angles and the 'true' picture becomes clearer. I asked not of what is established science/knowledge but what is to come.
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MarkostheGnostic said: Models ("blueprints?") are tools that can be applied to different endeavors.
And I spoke of a rather unique one.
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MarkostheGnostic said: For example Will Parfitt demonstrated a scheme whereby he corresponded the 10 spheres on the Qabbalistic Tree with the 7 chakras of Hindu Yoga, AND showed the phenomenological correspondences. The 3 pillars on the Tree are shown to correspond with the 3 spinal pathways in the yogic model (Solar-Pingala-Severity, Lunar-Ida-Mercy, Sushumna-Middle Pillar). But each model has its own virtues. The Tibetan Buddhist model has its unique virtues as does the Chinese Taoist system. The foci are on different aspects of existence and Being.
There is a schema which affords one the ability to combine multiple foci towards higher understanding. I speak of such a process directed towards the endeavor of recreating man.
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MarkostheGnostic said: The direction of humanity is from "the natural man" to the "inner man" as Paul described in his letters which became biblical writ, a movement from the natural to the spiritual, the physical to the metaphysical, not the natural to the "artificial." I endeavored long and hard to become comfortable in my own skin while rising above the demands of the appetitive soul. I do not relish the replacement of my natural parts by artificial mesh in my hernia repair, the plastic intra-occular lens instead of the natural lens in my eye, the Titanium stud supporting a dental implant, or even my dependence on reading and driving eye glasses but I do appreciate them. I simply hope for no more artificial aids and I draw the line at ventilator-existence.
I used terms loosely here such that 'Artificial' corresponds to the spiritual and a future state of knowledge whereas the 'natural' reflects present day familiar knowledge. I solicit not your personal sentiment but moreso open-ended commentary about the possibility of such a thing in the near future. What of the nature of man if not to ultimately understand and recreate things beyond 'nature' an the natural world? What does a well-traveled spiritual man such as yourself feel about such things?
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not psychic or spiritual phenomena
WRONG! If something interacts with the physical world, then it is amenable to the scientific method. If it does not, then it is indistinguishable from imagination and carries as much weight.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
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Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not psychic or spiritual phenomena
WRONG! If something interacts with the physical world, then it is amenable to the scientific method. If it does not, then it is indistinguishable from imagination and carries as much weight.
I think you're wrong. You sound like someone who 'believes' in Scientism rather than being scientific methodologically. I cannot prove my psychic experiences nor my spiritual experiences yet there have been remarkable phenomena in my life. They operate independently of my controlling ego and any experimental possible design. That does not mean they are imaginary. Speculatively, psychic and the spiritual may operate in parallel to the physical world, like distant particles in quantum entanglement which are operating in consonance but which cannot be causally communicating faster than light-speed. Synchronicity is "an acausal connecting principle." Simultaneity is somewhat different.
I can grok things like Bohm's Implicate-Explicate Order, or Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance and models for explaining phenomena based on entirely different processes as the simple rational processing of sensory data. I can do that too. But I have been granted experiences that current science is incapable of explaining. You should know this about me by now. I can still hear wood-eating insects inside of my wood pile. A late friend (since junior high) who became a exterminator once said "that is impossible." He was essentially calling me a liar because for him it was impossible to perceive such sounds. Well, it was impossible for Fred who had been a drummer since junior high school, but it was not impossible for me. My wife complained of the sound of ants scraping their chitinous bodies through the concrete blocks of an outer wall in her bathroom. I could hear that too. I bored into the wall from outside and introduced insecticide. No more ants no more noises. No, it wasn't imagination or hallucination, it was an infestation.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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redgreenvines
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science has nothing pertinent to say about mind because being non-physical it can not be quantified
The good thing about your post is that it shows how we can model 3d using 2d projections (great illustration), we can do it in our minds or, using algorithms and machines, we can have it done for us auto magically.
With a good model we can make predictions that are reliable.
Experimental evidence has many pertinent things to say about a quantifiable mind, and science is getting quite close to correlating brain function with mind in all cases. These correlations can be used to formulate reliable predictions about mind and brain in many cases.
I am disturbed that so many intelligent people cling to remnants of superstition about god and mind and spirit, but I understand that it is difficult to model totality, and when a church claims to have successfully done so using FAITH, then that seem to be enough for a large segment of humanity that are open to alternate truths.
What is most disturbing about this, is that they believe that, in being FAITHFUL (or aligned WITH OTHERS WHO HAVE FAITH), they must declare that things poorly understood (such as mind) are not of this world, and they use that as proof of the otherworldliness of spirit and god which are completely conjectural models supported by the thinnest of evidence - usually synchronicity.
Moreover, hordes of the faithful are easily duped into following complete jerks, and opposing anything with ties to science, such as immunization, green house gas modeling, and the fallacy of race based society.
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Brian Jones
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not psychic or spiritual phenomena, or in a word, consciousness. All that can be approached by the scientific method is the brain which has a unique correspondence with mind. But I do not equate mind with matter, and science has nothing pertinent to say about mind because being non-physical it can not be quantified. Your expression "real world artificial abstraction" seems oxymoronic to me, contradictory. Mystical experience cannot be translated into science without reductionism which destroys it. Reductionism violates Victor Frankl's rules of "Dimensional Ontology" wherein projecting a reality onto lesser dimensions yields contradictory and inaccurate results:

Clearly a 3-D solid cylinder is more than a 2-D circle and rectangle.
Models ("blueprints?") are tools that can be applied to different endeavors. For example Will Parfitt demonstrated a scheme whereby he corresponded the 10 spheres on the Qabbalistic Tree with the 7 chakras of Hindu Yoga, AND showed the phenomenological correspondences. The 3 pillars on the Tree are shown to correspond with the 3 spinal pathways in the yogic model (Solar-Pingala-Severity, Lunar-Ida-Mercy, Sushumna-Middle Pillar). But each model has its own virtues. The Tibetan Buddhist model has its unique virtues as does the Chinese Taoist system. The foci are on different aspects of existence and Being.
The direction of humanity is from "the natural man" to the "inner man" as Paul described in his letters which became biblical writ, a movement from the natural to the spiritual, the physical to the metaphysical, not the natural to the "artificial." I endeavored long and hard to become comfortable in my own skin while rising above the demands of the appetitive soul. I do not relish the replacement of my natural parts by artificial mesh in my hernia repair, the plastic intra-occular lens instead of the natural lens in my eye, the Titanium stud supporting a dental implant, or even my dependence on reading and driving eye glasses but I do appreciate them. I simply hope for no more artificial aids and I draw the line at ventilator-existence.
I am not well versed here, but I think you are right. They can map the brain till they think they have it mastered. That will inform us very little about the mind.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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redgreenvines
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Brian Jones]
#26404521 - 12/28/19 11:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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the mapping is important, but more important is how the traffic moves, and the traffic is mental forms linking to other mental forms, some of which include speaking and acting.
so far study of brain is about the hardwiring and layout using large time slices. thoughts, however, move on a faster scale... higher speed brain imaging of electrical field changes will inform us about how mental contents move in the mind.
this does not mean you have to stop being imaginative about your deities, but it will stop PHD's from expounding upon how our ideas are proof of a nonphysical dimension.
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laughingdog
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Science is a methodology that is applicable to physical phenomena, not ... consciousness. .... But I do not equate mind with matter, and science has nothing pertinent to say about mind because being non-physical it can not be quantified.
Seems you are using your mind ( in a way that is supposed to be rational & logical, or in other words scientific,) to proclaim that the mind is not to be understood by science or rationality.
I think you contradict yourself
Edited by laughingdog (01/08/20 04:45 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Sandsandy]
#26423480 - 01/08/20 07:17 PM (4 years, 21 days ago) |
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Sorry, but most religious texts are the result of mental illness I would guess. Buddha wasn't crazy I don't think, but he never wrote his stuff down...other people did. It's mostly a hodgepodge of tribalistic hate and it encourages bloodshed.
Quote:
"Dumb All Over"
Whoever we are Wherever we're from We shoulda noticed by now Our behavior is dumb And if our chances Expect to improve It's gonna take a lot more Than tryin' to remove The other race Or the other whatever From the face Of the planet altogether They call it THE EARTH Which is a dumb kinda name But they named it right 'Cause we behave the same... We are dumb all over Dumb all over, Yes we are Dumb all over, Near'n far Dumb all over Black 'n white People, we is not wrapped tight Nurds on the left Nurds on the right Religious fanatics On the air every night Sayin' the Bible Tells the story Makes the details Sound real gory 'Bout what to do If the geeks over there Don't believe in the book We got over here You can't run a race Without no feet 'N pretty soon There won't be no street For dummies to jog on Or doggies to dog on Religious fanatics Can make it be all gone (I mean it won't blow up 'N disappear It'll just look ugly For a thousand years...) You can't run a country By a book of religion Not by a heap Or a lump or a smidgeon Of foolish rules Of ancient date Designed to make You all feel great While you fold, spindle And mutilate Those unbelievers From a neighboring state TO ARMS! TO ARMS! Hooray! That's great Two legs ain't bad Unless there's a crate They ship the parts To mama in For souvenirs: two ears (Get down!) Not his, not hers (but what the hey?) The Good Book says: "It's gotta be that way!" But their book says: "REVENGE THE CRUSADES... With whips 'n chains 'N hand grenades..." TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS? Have another and another Our Cod says: "There ain't no other!" Our Cod says "It's all okay!" Our God says "This is the way!" It says in the book: "Burn 'n destroy... 'N repent, 'n redeem 'N revenge, 'n deploy 'N rumble thee forth To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side 'Cause they don't go for what's in the book 'N that makes 'em BAD So verily we must choppeth them up And stompeth them down Or rent a nice French bomb To poof them out of existence While leaving their real estate just where we need it To use again For temples in which to praise OURGOD ("Cause he can really take care of business!") And when his humble TV servant With humble white hair And humble glasses And a nice brown suit And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls Tells us our God says It's okay to do this stuff Then we gotta do it, 'Cause if we don't do it, We ain't gwine up to hebbin! (Depending on which book you're using at the time... Can't use theirs...it don't work...it's all lies... Gotta use mine...) Ain't that right? That's what they say Every night... Everyday... Hey, we can't really be dumb If we're just following God's Orders Hey, let's get serious... God knows what he's doin' He wrote this book here An'the book says: He made us all to be just like Him," so... If we're dumb... Then God is dumb... (An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)
-- Frank Zappa
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Do you think Mohammad had dmt experience? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#26423517 - 01/08/20 07:40 PM (4 years, 21 days ago) |
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I suppose one could differentiate between religion & mysticism. One might say as many have, that religion attempts to answer the big questions. So we get creation myths and stories of some "god" telling us all what to do forever. Everything gets explained, at least at a simple enough level, for those incapable of critical thinking. That these myths and stories all differ is amusing, but overlooked by those who say 'all religions at heart teach the same thing'.
"Mysticism" on the other hand could be said to be those teachings that deny that any conceptual formula is ultimately of any real help, without a deep experience that most certainly cannot be put into words in a really meaningful way. Thus, for example, both 'nirvana' and 'the Tao' are said to be beyond definition. And experiencing meditation, not adhering strictly to dogma is the vehicle used, to 'attain the goal'.
Perhaps this is slightly more nuanced way of looking at the matter than Zappa's strident dismissal.
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