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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26403195 - 12/27/19 04:05 PM (6 months, 14 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Imagine what would happen if the US removed all sanctions on North Korea and allowed the people there a chance at a better life.  But the US will NEVER give a communist country a chance to succeed.  That's why the restrictions with Cuba were never removed under Obama.




Sanctions are not the reason North Korea the worst place on earth.






South Korea was just as bad as North Korea prior to and during the Korean War.  I've seen photos of the conditions people lived in from my grandfather's tour.  South Koreans would collect (as in shovel and transport) human manure for their fields (nightsoil) because there was no other way to fertilize their fields, the few that even had land.  The "houses" ranged from scrap metal pieces tied together to huts.

Then the USA started giving South Korea resources.





Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Imagine what would happen if the North Koreans rose up and killed the entire Kim family





What's stopping them from doing so?


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Tulipslave]
    #26403698 - 12/27/19 09:14 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Mass Stockholm Syndrome , obviously .


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Near Dylan]
    #26403730 - 12/27/19 09:35 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Near Dylan said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Imagine what would happen if the US removed all sanctions on North Korea and allowed the people there a chance at a better life.  But the US will NEVER give a communist country a chance to succeed.  That's why the restrictions with Cuba were never removed under Obama.



Sanctions are not the reason North Korea the worst place on earth.



Sanctions probably aren’t helping, eh?

What exactly do we gain by sanctioning NK?



Leverage



Why do you think the sanctions give us any leverage?  Why would N. Korea care?

The original question was to you koods, so feel free to answer as well.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26403736 - 12/27/19 09:37 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Tulipslave said:
Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Imagine what would happen if the North Koreans rose up and killed the entire Kim family



What's stopping them from doing so?



Mass Stockholm Syndrome , obviously .



Maybe they're unhappy with the US?  I'm sure the N. Korean people are not thrilled with our sanctions either.


--------------------
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OfflineSeriously_trippin
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26403884 - 12/28/19 12:27 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
It would be great for many reasons to avoid these foreign entanglements, but we are stuck in a "you broke it, you pay for it" situation. It would cause a power vacuum in Asia and Europe that China and Russia would quickly fill. I realize this is neoliberal reasoning, but I don't see a solution that doesn't involve these consequences.



In 1994 with Clinton's approval, Carter struck a deal with North Korea where they agreed to freeze their nuclear program in exchange for some fuel oil and two nuclear reactors.  A win-win outcome for both sides.

But in 2002, Bush declared North Korea part of the "Axis of Evil", ending shipments of fuel and cancelling the construction of the promised nuclear reactors.  Any moron could have predicted the outcome, but the Bush administration didn't. 

North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, expelled atomic energy agency inspectors, resumed processing fuel rods and began redeveloping nuclear explosive devices.  And four years later, BOOM... 

Maybe we can try something like that again, or maybe North Korea learned it can't trust the United States.  :shrug:




That's good info man i didnt know that but that's why NK is going batshit right now because we aren't and really can't offer them anything at this point so the talks have gone nowhere quick. The only thing we can take as an offer is total denuclearization which for the NKs will be a cold day in he'll before they do that. The North Koreans have only offered chicken shit things like a few hundred US soldiers ashes that have been withheld since the war and there's thousands more they aren't offering. Past that they want a complete demilitarized US military and South Korean Miltary which is virtually impossible and it would be the dumbest deal in political history. They can't offer us anything right now and we can't  offer them anything in that situation you don't open trade negotiations lest you be ready for war.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Seriously_trippin]
    #26403928 - 12/28/19 01:28 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
That's good info man i didnt know that...



Thanks man.  :thumbup:

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
...but that's why NK is going batshit right now because we aren't and really can't offer them anything at this point so the talks have gone nowhere quick.



Maybe.

"Trump, on the advice of John Bolton, his national security adviser at the time, told Kim he must accede to all U.S. demands before Washington would negotiate any concessions of its own. The Reuters report demonstrated that Bolton’s advice to Trump — delivered just as the president sat down with Kim, so leaving him little time to consider it — was intended to precipitate precisely the sudden breach between the two leaders that then took place."

That was a retarded offer, likely intended to invoke bad feelings.  Since Trump made the offer, I don't know if he'll back down now, but I wouldn't have accepted Bolton's offer either if were Kim Jong Un. 

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
The only thing we can take as an offer is total denuclearization which for the NKs will be a cold day in he'll before they do that. The North Koreans have only offered chicken shit things like a few hundred US soldiers ashes that have been withheld since the war and there's thousands more they aren't offering.



I think the main thing we want is denuclearization.

Quote:

Seriously_trippin said:
Past that they want a complete demilitarized US military and South Korean Miltary which is virtually impossible and it would be the dumbest deal in political history.



I haven't heard that before.  Source, or make believe?


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26404136 - 12/28/19 06:25 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

There is no way they will denuclearize, unless we literally aid them into a middle class population, which will never happen since we don't even have a middle class population. Trump bragged his way into this situation. He's still waiting for someone to pin the Nobel Peace Prize around his neck. His speech at the United Nations was the shit show of all shit shows. There is no scenario now where this will get better.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26404207 - 12/28/19 07:48 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Of course not. Anyone that thinks that is a realistic goal is an idiot.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26404469 - 12/28/19 10:48 AM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Bolton (intentionally) fucked it up.  But as I've shown before, many on the left now like the guy since he opposes Trump.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26404619 - 12/28/19 12:31 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

I don’t think anyone on the left likes Bolton


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26404655 - 12/28/19 12:52 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I don’t think anyone on the left likes Bolton



I showed how Rachel Maddow defended Bolton  here.

Will you finally admit she's establishment?


--------------------
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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26404719 - 12/28/19 01:26 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
I don’t think anyone on the left likes Bolton



I showed how Rachel Maddow defended Bolton  here.

Will you finally admit she's establishment?



You defend trump, I dont think that means you like him. The same way I don't think qman necessarily likes Trump...you give credit where it's due, correct?
And for the record: fuck Rachel Maddow.


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Edited by Sulfurshelfsean (12/28/19 01:26 PM)


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26404738 - 12/28/19 01:37 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
I don’t think anyone on the left likes Bolton



No one did, until speculation came out that might testify against Trump.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #26405007 - 12/28/19 04:21 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You defend trump, I dont think that means you like him. The same way I don't think qman necessarily likes Trump...you give credit where it's due, correct?
And for the record: fuck Rachel Maddow.



Sure, I'd credit Bolton if he deserved it, but I don't think he's deserving of credit for being a war hawk.  But Maddow liked his hawkishness, because it was against Trump.


--------------------
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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26405011 - 12/28/19 04:24 PM (6 months, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Sulfurshelfsean said:
You defend trump, I dont think that means you like him. The same way I don't think qman necessarily likes Trump...you give credit where it's due, correct?
And for the record: fuck Rachel Maddow.



Sure, I'd credit Bolton if he deserved it, but I don't think he's deserving of credit for being a war hawk.  But Maddow liked his hawkishness, because it was against Trump.



Ah true I kind of forgot about that. Shouldve clicked your link to see what you were talking about specifically.


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Sulfurshelfsean]
    #26405304 - 12/28/19 07:46 PM (6 months, 12 days ago)

Bolton is scum.  That's why Trumpy hired him in the first place


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #26405317 - 12/28/19 07:56 PM (6 months, 12 days ago)

The paradox of the "troop withdrawals" remain.


--------------------
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.”


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OfflineDJ_avocado
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #26405675 - 12/29/19 04:24 AM (6 months, 12 days ago)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-transcript-read-ukraine-president-phone-call-transcript-pdf-released-today-joe-biden-crowdstrike-2019-09-25/

From what I understand about the impeachment, a trial is in the future.

Is there evidence that I am missing (other than the Ukraine transcript)? I understand it is not the complete call transcript and there may be a lot of irrelevant stuff PROBABLY cut out of it. Assuming any damning evidence, any relevant information, hasn't been excluded from the transcript what can be used for a conviction?

Is the "whistleblower" person and their testimony especially important?

It seems to me that it must be PROVEN that foreign affairs (sale of military aid) was influenced by Trump's interest in securing a second term. But this seems like a very difficult thing to prove, impossible beyond reason for doubt (as long as the court is concerned).


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: DJ_avocado] * 1
    #26405863 - 12/29/19 08:00 AM (6 months, 12 days ago)

The "court" is the senate.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is not the standard for conviction.  All that is required is for enough senators to think he did it.  Or not.


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