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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26400963 - 12/25/19 08:37 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
In 2010 we had troops in 150 countries. In 2017 it was 177.



As you know, the relevant years are 2016 and 2019.  In Dec 2016 we had troops in 177 countries.  In Sep 2019 it was down to 169 (source).

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
I know we have a lot of troops in South Korea, but it should be one of the last places we pull them from.

I don't think we should pull the troops and then wait to see if that induces Kim to denuclearize.

I think this a very risky maneuver primarily motivated by Trump wanting to be able to say he accomplished something.



What's the risk?  South Korea has a sizable military and a more powerful Air Force and Navy.  We're the ones who are famous for breaking our promises.  :shrug:

The potential gain would be huge.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26400986 - 12/25/19 09:17 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

North Korea isn’t giving up its nukes :laugh2:


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26400987 - 12/25/19 09:18 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

We have far more troops in Germany and Japan. So what's the risk there and the expense? To me talking about pulling the troops out of South Korea is strictly a Trump vanity project.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26400989 - 12/25/19 09:22 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
North Korea isn’t giving up its nukes :laugh2:



Of course they're not if they get nothing in return.  That should go without saying.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26400991 - 12/25/19 09:23 PM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
We have far more troops in Germany and Japan. So what's the risk there and the expense?



Believe me, I'm all for troop removal.  :thumbup:


--------------------
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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26402171 - 12/26/19 09:01 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

I think if we pull out of Korea (or Japan and Germany) it will cause massive nuclear proliferation. The agreements we made with these countries to not develop nukes is contingent on our being there.

It would be great for many reasons to avoid these foreign entanglements, but we are stuck in a "you broke it, you pay for it" situation. It would cause a power vacuum in Asia and Europe that China and Russia would quickly fill. I realize this is neoliberal reasoning, but I don't see a solution that doesn't involve these consequences.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26402211 - 12/26/19 09:45 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
It would be great for many reasons to avoid these foreign entanglements, but we are stuck in a "you broke it, you pay for it" situation. It would cause a power vacuum in Asia and Europe that China and Russia would quickly fill. I realize this is neoliberal reasoning, but I don't see a solution that doesn't involve these consequences.



In 1994 with Clinton's approval, Carter struck a deal with North Korea where they agreed to freeze their nuclear program in exchange for some fuel oil and two nuclear reactors.  A win-win outcome for both sides.

But in 2002, Bush declared North Korea part of the "Axis of Evil", ending shipments of fuel and cancelling the construction of the promised nuclear reactors.  Any moron could have predicted the outcome, but the Bush administration didn't. 

North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, expelled atomic energy agency inspectors, resumed processing fuel rods and began redeveloping nuclear explosive devices.  And four years later, BOOM... 

Maybe we can try something like that again, or maybe North Korea learned it can't trust the United States.  :shrug:


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26402232 - 12/26/19 10:07 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
It would be great for many reasons to avoid these foreign entanglements, but we are stuck in a "you broke it, you pay for it" situation. It would cause a power vacuum in Asia and Europe that China and Russia would quickly fill. I realize this is neoliberal reasoning, but I don't see a solution that doesn't involve these consequences.



In 1994 with Clinton's approval, Carter struck a deal with North Korea where they agreed to freeze their nuclear program in exchange for some fuel oil and two nuclear reactors.  A win-win outcome for both sides.

But in 2002, Bush declared North Korea part of the "Axis of Evil", ending shipments of fuel and cancelling the construction of the promised nuclear reactors.  Any moron could have predicted the outcome, but the Bush administration didn't. 

North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, expelled atomic energy agency inspectors, resumed processing fuel rods and began redeveloping nuclear explosive devices.  And four years later, BOOM... 

Maybe we can try something like that again, or maybe North Korea learned it can't trust the United States.  :shrug:





and Kim Jong Un has also had the pleasure of seeing what happened to Muammar al-Gaddafi and is happening to Maduro


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Tulipslave]
    #26402630 - 12/27/19 08:01 AM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Responding respectfully to the two posters above me. Yes the U.S. can't be trusted. You will get no argument from me. What I'm saying is South Korea's nuclear weapons program starts the second we talk about pulling U.S. troops. Hypothetically, Germany and Japan would do the same thing. I know we wrote their constitutions, but that is all moot if we pull our troops. If Pakistan and North Korea can develop nuclear missiles, then how long would it take those three super brain power countries?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26402940 - 12/27/19 11:53 AM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
What I'm saying is South Korea's nuclear weapons program starts the second we talk about pulling U.S. troops.



I think you meant North Korea, right?

You might be right, you might be wrong.  But I'm fairly confident they won't denuclearize because of US chest pounding, as we're now hoping.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26402947 - 12/27/19 11:59 AM (6 months, 10 days ago)

No he’s saying without the US supporting the defense of South Korea, South Korea will develop their own nukes to counter North Koreas


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods]
    #26402958 - 12/27/19 12:13 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

koods said:
No he’s saying without the US supporting the defense of South Korea, South Korea will develop their own nukes to counter North Koreas



Or South Korea would focus on peace and reunification, something Moon was elected to do, since the United States would no longer get in the way by attempting to keep our military industrial complex healthy with plenty of enemies.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26402968 - 12/27/19 12:24 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

I  have to imagine the only way Korea could reunite is if the Kim dynasty gave up control , that isn’t going to happen though and South Korea isn’t going to accept stalanistic regime control so it seems like an unrealistic goal to say the least .


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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26402972 - 12/27/19 12:26 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Imagine if they went to an open border system, NK would be vacant in weeks.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: christopera]
    #26403000 - 12/27/19 12:55 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Ya what’s supposed to happen when all the people in the north realize they are free and start demanding economic equality on par with those in the south ?  Another war probably .


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26403017 - 12/27/19 01:03 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Imagine what would happen if the US removed all sanctions on North Korea and allowed the people there a chance at a better life.  But the US will NEVER give a communist country a chance to succeed.  That's why the restrictions with Cuba were never removed under Obama.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26403084 - 12/27/19 02:15 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Imagine what would happen if the US removed all sanctions on North Korea and allowed the people there a chance at a better life.  But the US will NEVER give a communist country a chance to succeed.  That's why the restrictions with Cuba were never removed under Obama.




Sanctions are not the reason North Korea the worst place on earth.


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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: koods] * 1
    #26403086 - 12/27/19 02:17 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Sanctions probably aren’t helping, eh?

What exactly do we gain by sanctioning NK?


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Edited by christopera (12/27/19 02:18 PM)


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OfflineNear Dylan
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: christopera]
    #26403110 - 12/27/19 02:38 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Leverage


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: My thoughts on Trump, his impeachment and his legacy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26403152 - 12/27/19 03:26 PM (6 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Imagine what would happen if the US removed all sanctions on North Korea and allowed the people there a chance at a better life




  Imagine what would happen if the North Koreans rose up and killed the entire Kim family and decided they preferred freedom and democracy to a dictatorship . Imagine if Kim just stepped aside and allowed his people to have a better life .
  We can’t help the people of North Korea Or South Korea from a position of weakness , and that’s what you want .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (12/27/19 03:26 PM)


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