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PrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations



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Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? 5
#26393326 - 12/21/19 12:05 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I guess the problem I have with threads like that (and there have been hundreds like it over the years) is, aside from that it starts with cranky people complaining about other people who might be having better trips than they do, is that solid deep trips cannot begin to be described with language IME.
I know y'all are trying there, and I respect that as far as it goes, but I've never read any account of a trip that gets close to the kind of thing that happens to me, and that kind of thing isn't something even I can express in language.
The deeper you go, the deeper you can go.
Buddhism teaches there is no separate self to experience things, there never was any such thing. So how can you "lose" something that never existed in the first place? Why would you even want to? You can't "lose" it but you can transcend it if it's helpful, and really, it is helpful. Because it's a better perspective than the one that sets you up as separate from everything else.
In this mundane material culture we sort of inhabit and imbibe from at times, there's an endless supply of mundane material people. Naturally, because that's its purpose - make more consumers of product. When they up and complain from time to time that "nobody ever got free of it", they're just endorsing the status quo, and they're simply wrong.
Now here's the weird stuff - I'm starting to grow shrooms again in preparation for next summer, and I'll be tripping heavily again soon, long before then, and I'm getting premonitions or something already - stuff goes missing inexplicably, other stuff appears inexplicably and it doesn't belong to anybody around here, and just now my SO said "Why did Phish suddenly start playing in the living room?"
Well that wouldn't be weird except all the Phish I've been listening to on the living room amp and speakers was on a usb drive stuck in a laptop and I took it out today after I shut the laptop off and used it to transfer a christmas picture for cards. And it's sitting right here in front of me on the desk in another room. Yes, Phish was playing, but it was hours ago, and the laptop is dead, Jim, as I demonstrated.
This is the kind of thing that usually goes with my trips - this is my normal - this is what I'm used to anymore - and the more I trip the more stuff like that happens, stuff that other people notice at the time and comment on. Stuff that I'm actively studying when I can figure out good ways to do it, which is one of my serious hobbies.
So if you've got experience along these lines, whether it comes from tripping or just trippiness (I do on both counts) I'd like to hear more about it.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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Psicomb


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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26393352 - 12/21/19 12:30 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thank you so much for sharing, PrimalSoup. I can relate a lot. I am not one to use the term "ego death" but I also can appreciate what folks are trying to Express by using that term (as explained eloquently by others in that other thread you linked). That thread reminded me of reading Joe Molloys "DMT is bullshit" thoughts on here.. not at all how I would talk to others with different opinions but I'm glad to have seen you and others write up thoughtful responses though.
I have had similar experiences to those odd moments you have been having lately. I had one yesterday, in fact. A small one, but still significant.
Yesterday was my first real DMT experience and I put on music to try and fight my pre DMT anxiety but I knew deep down that it wasn't what I truly "needed", which was to turn that shit off and listen up to the message I'm given by the trip. Well, the exact moment I exhaled my rip the music playing through my speakers on my phone shut off randomly and I was left with the sound of a roaring DMT trip tearing my head off. It was exactly what I needed.
Another time I was tripping incredibly hard on penis envy and walked to one corner of my apartment to play drums and there was a chorus of angels, clear as day. I listened for a handful of minutes, all while feeling a powerful euphoria pour over me, and then walked away from that corner and the angels became fainter until I couldn't hear them. I walked back to that corner a few minutes later and there the chorus was again, as beautiful and incredible as ever.
I just can't explain these things. I'm not religious or even "spiritual" beyond keeping an open mind as best I can but these things just blow me away. There are quite a few more moments of "magic" or intense synchronicity I have experienced as well and I am really grateful for them because it keeps me in the unknown when it comes to psychedelics...just the way I like it.
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When we constantly pull things apart trying to see how it works, we may end up with only an understanding of how to destroy something - nick sand
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CountHTML
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup] 3
#26393358 - 12/21/19 12:42 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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There’s definitely weird stuff going on in life that psychedelics only seem to highlight. I once had a professor who said something to the effect of, “synchronicity and precognition isn’t real unless it happens to you. In those instances, it is real.” Basically, he was a psychologist and he kept a log of his own dreams for 15 years and over that timeframe, he recorded 4 precognitive dreams that he could not explain. Like, deja Vu months or years later.
Quite frankly, I don’t give a damn anymore about what other people think about this stuff. Life is fucking weird. Genuine open heartedness seems to be rewarded by life in one way or another. Usually hard experiences that strengthen our character. Survival never quite a given. Then again, there’s all McKenna’s talk about “the doubter.”
But, it’s the myriad perspectives of whatever this thing we call life is that makes it what it is in many ways. All projections, ultimately. Being separate from it is a short ride.
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NOUS333
Stranger Than You


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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: CountHTML]
#26393368 - 12/21/19 01:11 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I tried taking mushrooms with this chick. Realized I didn’t like her that much while tripping. And. I realized. I always get what I want. And my life not being up to par with my desires is simply me not being able to contemplate what I actually want and hold onto it long enough to manifest it. So I keep attracting the same old shit. It also involves a lack of faith on my part that what I want will actually come to me. Along with being too susceptible to other people’s impressions of me and ideas about who I am.
But yeah. Mushrooms helped me realize the person who wants better and the person who wants the same shit are two sides of the same coin. It’s sort of like tools new art concept, Alex greys “twist” figure. It makes it really confusing when a voice in your head you can’t really tell is good or bad for you keeps manifesting horrible shit for you. I told myself I need to distance myself from this girl at all costs. Not good for me. And then today all day I couldn’t stop thinking of her....she ended up texting me, ended up coming over and fooling around and now I’m sitting here in my right state of mind like what the fuck. I dropped the ball again. We are constantly calling our circumstances into our lives and it seems so uncontrollable. The side of us who wants to change can’t see the side of us who doesn’t give a shit pulling the rug out from underneath all the good sides plans. We just keep tripping ourselves.
Sorry. This might not be very relevant. But. There is something about premonitions. Last year I just had a thought enter my head about my friend dying. Imagined the way he would die. A few months later he died in the way I imagined it.
All of this kind of higher thinking. Premonitions, realizing the self manifesting nature of mind, it al started happening when I wanted to do mushrooms to get over a depression but I realized the mushroom will just show me everything I’ve been ignoring and it will likely be very intense and traumatic. So why not just face all of that shit while sober. Everyday. One day at a time. It only took the thought of tripping to bring about a world of change. They are so powerful and profound they effect me daily even though I haven’t had a heavy trip in nearly a decade.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: NOUS333] 1
#26393370 - 12/21/19 01:13 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lol @ this thread as my solstice trip day is about to begin! 
See you all on the other side with a trip report
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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acidgoofy
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26393388 - 12/21/19 01:33 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I find it quite sad that there are people here so closed minded they think everyone is making shit up when they talk about ego-dead^^..
The better you understand and integrate whats happening, the better you will be able to describe it with language. And I think its important to share you experiences with others.
But yeah as you said, no way anyone can really express whats happening when you have breakthrough experiences. And the deeper you go, the harder it gets to communicate, especially to people who didn't have some kind of similar experiences.
Quote:
PrimalSoup said: You can't "lose" it but you can transcend it if it's helpful, and really, it is helpful.

Quote:
PrimalSoup said: "Why did Phish suddenly start playing in the living room?"
I wonder whats the message behind that 
Here is a crazy story that happened to me the weekend after a high dose lsd trip:
The week after the trip for 4 nights or so I dreamt one dream like it continued the following nights and it was crazy intense. Most of the time I can remember quite a bit about my dreams but this time almost nothing.
Then on the weekend I was going out with a friend to dance (took some mdma). I sat down for a minute, my friend said something to me and then BOOM the whole dream was there before my inner eye. And the dream was about this night and its happening right now. Some things from the dream already happened and others where about to happen and I knew it. For about 5-10 minutes I could predict nearly everything that was going on around me. And it exactly happened the way I predicted it. Kind of felt like having an ongoing synchronicity but a bit different, it was really cool but also fucking mind blowing.
I thought alot about it and I think something wants to show me that the future already happened and the past is always there. I read something along those lines before. But its different now that I had this experience, something changed.
-------------------- “What you seek is seeking you” Rumi
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: acidgoofy]
#26393401 - 12/21/19 01:48 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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What if the ego threads are a test to see who gets pissy about either side of the ego argument, thus failing and engaging ego, and missing the point entirely?
Can we be ok with others not being ok with the same things we believe and feel, especially semantically?
Genuinely surprised to see so many threads on this topic!
Are we missing the point of psychs by arguing lower level archetypal impressions of higher universal experiential truth of reality>
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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acidgoofy
Freak


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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26393411 - 12/21/19 02:02 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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hehe sure everyone got their own believes and we all oke with that I feel 
Quote:
Loaded Shaman said: Are we missing the point of psychs by arguing lower level archetypal impressions of higher universal experiential truth of reality>
Whats the point of psychs? Everyone got their own reasons for doing it.
I just think lots of people missing out on ego-dead, by dismissing the possibility.
I had to go trough lots of chaos before it happened
-------------------- “What you seek is seeking you” Rumi
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redgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: acidgoofy] 1
#26393753 - 12/21/19 09:23 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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let us not disparage other people especially when language conveys this concept like a badly leaking sieve.
all of us fail to speak total truth even if we know it, some do not even know that...
I think we have to be as assistive in this as possible, and -well- I guess is it ok to start a new thread on the same issue, but are we actually discussing a different thing or was it an ego-ic reflex that erupted as a new thread? (no matter either way)
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Shr00mEater
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26393826 - 12/21/19 10:34 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I liked the other thread, made me think about stuff. There is such a variety of angles and ideas about the subject. I knew everyone else was crazy too, I just didn’t know how much. 😊
I hate the idea of actually figuring it all out if it’s such a great instigator of a people describing the more intangible concepts about reality they hold. It’s great to see such diversity of thought, even if it seems kinda contentious and emotional sometimes. I love the variety and appreciate the detail everyone put into it.
I like this thread too. It does feel a bit reactionary because of the title, but, hey it definitely hasn’t been as trigger prone as the other thread. I think OP isn’t wanting to rehash the same stuff. but, I think it’s gonna happen ultimately, because, people are weird.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: ...when language conveys this concept like a badly leaking sieve.
all of us fail to speak total truth even if we know it, some do not even know that...
Agreed
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Asura
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup] 2
#26393976 - 12/21/19 12:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said: I know y'all are trying there, and I respect that as far as it goes, but I've never read any account of a trip that gets close to the kind of thing that happens to me, and that kind of thing isn't something even I can express in language.
Reading your posts, along with others like Aldebaran, Sabnock, CountHTML, footpath, etc...shit I could make a long list here...sure makes me want to pay more attention and attempt to express it in language. Although, it is impossible, I have been quite inspired to write more about my experiences.
That other thread is interesting to me, because I saw it as an attempt to just get a conversation started and I saw it all in a very positive way. Such a departure from my past thinking. I blame mushrooms 
A few trips ago, I started as a "hardcore atheist". And when I came out I was not. None of my beliefs changed. But the label itself was gone. I have lost a few labels this way and with each one there appears to be more room in my mind. That part of me that identifies as "self" may not be dying but there is change there.
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feevers


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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Asura]
#26394004 - 12/21/19 01:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Synchronicities surrounding psychedelic use have been increasing for me tremendously lately. Can't say I've experienced it while tripping, but before and after it's been a whirlwind: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26351862&page=0&vc=1#26351862
Planning on going away and doing some LSD for the first time in awhile tomorrow. Yesterday I pulled up the sun visor in my car to check when I'm due for an oil change since the drive to my tripping spot is 250 miles round trip, and sure enough the number on the sticker was my exact mileage at the time. Driving 30mph, so basically it was on that mile # for 2 out of the 60 minutes I was driving for that day, and hours in the previous days, but when I decided to check happened to line up with the exact time I was thinking about going away to drop acid . If my last trip was any indication, that example is only the beginning.
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footpath
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup] 2
#26394120 - 12/21/19 02:32 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
PrimalSoup said: ... solid deep trips cannot begin to be described with language IME.
I completely agree with that. And I think that's where I derive my own sense of... distrust? skepticism? scrutiny? over the terms that people tend to assign to any aspect of the perspective/perceptive experience. When I'm deep in (out?) there, I don't have the wherewithal to concern myself with ego, with self, with identity, with detail, with time, with space. I'm just, for those moments, truly there - I couldn't even call it 'in the moment' because even my sense of being is paper-thin. And when I come back to an observant mind, I know what I've experienced, what I've 'been through', but it's something like trying to describe a flavor with numbers... there's not too much to really make proper sense of all of that experience. I think we've all probably had odd phrases or sets of words that were so very impressively meaningful when you're influenced, but, come back to your normal state and you realize, 'well, that's silly', but it still maintains that profound impression on your soul, or spirit, or psyche, or synapses.
So I guess I see the worth of 'ego death' as just a very individual silly set of words. Which, to me, doesn't really hold much merit as the technical description that it's been given. That's not to say that I think people are wrong if that's the words they choose to describe the feeling they get, however.
PS - have a great time, solstice journeymen. I'll be out there with you. 11:19AM EST, the Sun stands proper still in the south. Let's all see it off back to the North, with a proper tip of the hat.
Edited by footpath (12/21/19 04:53 PM)
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R.I.P.Zappa
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: footpath]
#26394535 - 12/21/19 07:16 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think it goes parallel with why eye witnesses are not reliable in court. It tends to make one to take accounts with a grain of salt. The mind likes to fill in the blanks, embellish or take away per-say when recalling memories. Then there is the stress, wow factor, bias and cultural upbringing as well that plays a role. Ya know, the ego hard at work keeping you centered in the day to day world we go through. I cannot remember my trips fully detailed from come up to come down but of course there are those moments that really stand out and stick with ya.
Just some copy paste from an article.
------Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses.
Reconstructing Memories: The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” -------
Kinda reminds me of that classic Vietnam war MEME , " You don't know, you weren't there maaan!!".
-------------------- -The heaviest thing one will ever carry is a thought- -"Like a Blind man In an orgy you gotta feel things out.".- -When we agree about our hallucinations, we call it “reality".- -If you defy authority because your told to, that's no better than blindly trusting authority.- psychonautwiki.org How it should & shouldn't look - NEW CULTIVATORS GUIDE BOD's Easy AF OAT prep tek. Principles of mushroom growing for beginners
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mushboy
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Asura]
#26394676 - 12/21/19 09:27 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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fuck nam ive been to shroom peleiu.
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Aldebaran
Psilo-Scribe



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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26396357 - 12/22/19 08:56 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I know y'all are trying there, and I respect that as far as it goes, but I've never read any account of a trip that gets close to the kind of thing that happens to me, and that kind of thing isn't something even I can express in language.
The deeper you go, the deeper you can go.
Part of the problem is that defining 'ego death' is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - the wider discussion about how high-dose trips play out overall, and where they go, gets lost trying to define one specific aspect of them.
From threads where we've discussed this in the past, I got the impression we more or less agreed on the basics of what this state involves.
The difference is that for me, I usually only stay in this state very briefly, so I haven't stuck around to 'explore' it in any way or 'go deeper' into it. I am happy to leave this field of exploration to PrimalSoup, as my appointed representative 
Usually I 'wake up' from a state of 'ego death' fairly quickly and the trip goes crazy, like hitting a wall of insanity, as though trying to comprehend the ineffable in words results in madness.
I don't trip so hard these days (partly for that reason) so it's been a while since I visited those kind of states... but they still make for interesting discussion.

Quote:
Buddhism teaches there is no separate self to experience things, there never was any such thing.
I feel like these kind of trips give an awareness that 'you' as a conscious entity are much more than just your narrow day-to-day self; there is something beyond this. Apart from the expansive sense of the universe being one conscious entity, or the ground of being or whatever you call it, there is a more basic thing which involves becoming aware of your 'unconscious' mind and the way it is integrated into what 'you' are.
I often find that if I write when I'm tripping, phrases or sentences will just 'arrive' into my head as if from nowhere, without any sense of consciously constructing them, but it still feels as though they are coming from within 'me'.

During a recent trip, I wrote this:
Quote:
To be surrounded and followed. Day after day. By something you cannot see. And to finally give in to it. To sink down amongst the trees and die here.
It was a way of expressing the feeling of being able to sink down into a trip after a long time spent working e.t.c.
I tripped again a couple of days later and as soon as the trip kicked in I got a really eerie vision in my minds eye:
Quote:
I have an image (more of a vision than a visual) of stylised shamanic figures standing in a circle in a forest clearing at night, gazing in at something or someone in the center. Their faces are like birds seen on totem poles, or Egyptian Gods. They are silent and eerily unreal, and they just stand in a circle in the forest...
There was something weird about this image being served up in response to something I'd written, it was like a clear communication from my unconscious mind. Although I'll think twice about camping in any forest clearings...
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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Indicabuds420
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26396796 - 12/23/19 04:52 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Indicabuds420]
#26396818 - 12/23/19 05:36 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's why I'm willing to bet the terms "temporary ego disassociation" will be used in future descriptions.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26397385 - 12/23/19 12:43 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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when people say "there is something beyond this" I assume they use "this" to mean: 'what I have been thinking about' or 'what I can see or sense' or 'what we were talking about' or 'what they are talking about' or 'what anyone has been talking about'...
the statement gets a lot of leverage but the meaning usually misfires when I read it because I do not know "what" the "beyond" goes beyond, so I just agree, because it goes beyond me comprehending what the person was thinking.
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Aldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Indicabuds420]
#26397836 - 12/23/19 04:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
There's an interesting book by a neuroanatomist who had a serious left hemisphere stroke (brain hemorrhage) - My Stroke of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor. I've mentioned this book before. The fact that she is writing from the point of view of a scientist, rather than a psychedelic or strongly religious background, makes her comments very interesting.
I initially watched a TED talk where she speaks about her experience, and then by some weird coincidence or synchronicity I found her book in the reduced / remainder pile in one of those discount bookstores that usually only sell a very limited selection of mainstream stuff.

These are some extracts from the book which relate strongly to the current topic:
Quote:
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientists Personal Journey is a chronological documentation of the journey I took into the formless abyss of a silent mind, where the essence of my being became enfolded in a deep inner peace.
As a neuroanatomist, I must say that I learned as much about my brain and how it functions during that stroke, as I had in all my years of academia. By the end of that morning, my consciousness shifted into a perception that I was at one with the universe. Since that time, I have come to understand how it is that we are capable of having a "mystical" or "metaphysical" experience - relative to our brain anatomy.
I never really pondered what it would be like to lose my mind, more specifically, my left mind. I wish there were a safe way to induce this awareness in people. It might prove to be enlightening.
Imagine, if you will, what it would feel like to have each of your natural faculties systematically peeled away from your consciousness. First, imagine you lose your ability to make sense of sound coming in through your ears. You are not deaf, you simply hear all sound as chaos and noise. Second, remove your ability to see the defined forms of any objects in space. You are not blind, you simply cannot see three-dimensionally, or identify color. You have no ability to track an object in motion or distinguish clear boundaries between objects. In addition, common smells become so amplified that they overwhelm you, making it difficult for you to catch your breath.
No longer capable of perceiving temperature, vibration, pain or proprioception (position of your limbs), your awareness of your physical boundaries shift. The essence of your energy expands as it blends with the energy around you, and you sense that you are as big as the universe. Those little voices inside your head, reminding you of who you are and where you live, become silent. You lose memory connection to your old emotional self and the richness of this moment, right her, right now, captivates your perception. Everything, including the life force you are, radiates pure energy. With childlike curiosity, your heart soars in peace and your mind explores new ways of swimming in a sea of euphoria.
I loved the bliss of drifting in the current of the eternal flow... it was beautiful there. My spirit beamed free, enormous and peaceful...In the rapture of an engulfing bliss...
I love knowing my spirit was at one with the universe and in the flow with everything around me... I loved the feeling of deep inner peace that flooded the core of my very being.
...the peaceful tranquility of the divine bliss that I had found in the absence of the judgement of my left mind...
I realized that the blessing I had received from this experience was the knowledge that deep internal peace is accessible to anyone at any time. I believe the experience of Nirvana exists in the consciousness of our the right hemisphere, and that at any moment, we can choose to hook into that part of our brain.
My stroke of insight is that at the core of my right hemisphere consciousness is a character that is directly connected to my feeling of deep inner peace.
You can't read this book without making a very obvious connection to the kind of states we have been talking about under the label "ego death". The book is a good demonstration that if you *literally* render parts of the brain inoperative which are responsible for 'ego' functions such as sense of self, language and so on, the result is a state corresponding very clearly with descriptions of 'ego death' on psychedelics.
The author clearly views the experience as something very meaningful and important, and the last chapter of the book is called "Finding your deep inner peace".
In an old post I compared her comments about experiments which brain scanned monks and nuns as they meditated into a state of deep meditation or felt connected with God, and some recent work on the 'default mode network' - RE: Why does DMT cause grandiose perspective?
I don't think the author started off with a mystical / Buddhist / new age kind of outlook, so it is interesting that she ends up borrowing a mix of religious terms like Nirvana, rapture, spirit, divine bliss to describe her experience. I don't think this is a coincidence - I think there is something fundamental about how the brain works which causes these experiences, regardless of whether you think they contain any wider metaphysical or religious 'truth'.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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Andropolis
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26398308 - 12/23/19 09:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I may never revisit this thread as I’ve never actually posted here... but wanted to thank you for typing that book excerpt out.
I saw that TED Talk about a year or so ago and thought it was really interesting, but I wasn’t as focused on egoic death through means of meditation... or psychedelics (which I’ve never done as of yet).
What she writes is fascinating. ...to think our boundaries could dissolve if a certain portion of our brain were subdued. It’s almost as if a portion of the brain is a limiting device... greatly impeding our sense of reality. It makes me ponder death and if our inner most self really is liberated and melds into the ocean of Oneness upon dying.
If I may venture into some mystical discussion. In Judaism, the personified descriptions of “God” are only metaphorical. To say God is a “Father”, or one who sits on a throne is purely described this way because language has no words (and never could) to describe what/who God is. All of these “being-like” attributes are purely anthropomorphic. In fact, to say God has any kind of identifiable boundary is considered idolatry.
When “Jesus” goes into the wilderness during his fast, he’s tempted by “the devil”... which could be interpreted as his own egoic construct of separateness. The ego tempts with riches, fame, power, lust,... all the things the separate egoic self wants... but in the story, he overcomes this egoic tendency and makes the realization “I Am”. “I and “the Father” are One”. These statements are far beyond what the typical understand of them is.
They’re statements of egoic death... symbolized in the ritual of baptismal death, and rebirth.
I’m not proselytizing as I find this underlying deep meaning in all religions... I don’t really care what one identifies with. But the topic of egoic death and how it’s at the heart of most religions (though that’s not typically realized) is fascinating. I see it as the entire purpose and goal of life.... to willfully diminish and subdue the ego until one melts boundlessly into the I Am.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Andropolis]
#26398482 - 12/24/19 01:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whose ego is dying in this process?
How are you "you" at any point in the process if the ego secedes? Who/what is recording the experience into your consciousness for you to remember that you had "ego death" at all?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Peyote Road
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26398497 - 12/24/19 01:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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the brain?
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Peyote Road]
#26398507 - 12/24/19 01:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you define self as the brain?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26398660 - 12/24/19 05:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
There's an interesting book by a neuroanatomist who had a serious left hemisphere stroke (brain hemorrhage) - My Stroke of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor. I've mentioned this book before. The fact that she is writing from the point of view of a scientist, rather than a psychedelic or strongly religious background, makes her comments very interesting.
I initially watched a TED talk where she speaks about her experience, and then by some weird coincidence or synchronicity I found her book in the reduced / remainder pile in one of those discount bookstores that usually only sell a very limited selection of mainstream stuff.

These are some extracts from the book which relate strongly to the current topic:
Quote:
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientists Personal Journey is a chronological documentation of the journey I took into the formless abyss of a silent mind, where the essence of my being became enfolded in a deep inner peace.
As a neuroanatomist, I must say that I learned as much about my brain and how it functions during that stroke, as I had in all my years of academia. By the end of that morning, my consciousness shifted into a perception that I was at one with the universe. Since that time, I have come to understand how it is that we are capable of having a "mystical" or "metaphysical" experience - relative to our brain anatomy.
I never really pondered what it would be like to lose my mind, more specifically, my left mind. I wish there were a safe way to induce this awareness in people. It might prove to be enlightening.
Imagine, if you will, what it would feel like to have each of your natural faculties systematically peeled away from your consciousness. First, imagine you lose your ability to make sense of sound coming in through your ears. You are not deaf, you simply hear all sound as chaos and noise. Second, remove your ability to see the defined forms of any objects in space. You are not blind, you simply cannot see three-dimensionally, or identify color. You have no ability to track an object in motion or distinguish clear boundaries between objects. In addition, common smells become so amplified that they overwhelm you, making it difficult for you to catch your breath.
No longer capable of perceiving temperature, vibration, pain or proprioception (position of your limbs), your awareness of your physical boundaries shift. The essence of your energy expands as it blends with the energy around you, and you sense that you are as big as the universe. Those little voices inside your head, reminding you of who you are and where you live, become silent. You lose memory connection to your old emotional self and the richness of this moment, right her, right now, captivates your perception. Everything, including the life force you are, radiates pure energy. With childlike curiosity, your heart soars in peace and your mind explores new ways of swimming in a sea of euphoria.
I loved the bliss of drifting in the current of the eternal flow... it was beautiful there. My spirit beamed free, enormous and peaceful...In the rapture of an engulfing bliss...
I love knowing my spirit was at one with the universe and in the flow with everything around me... I loved the feeling of deep inner peace that flooded the core of my very being.
...the peaceful tranquility of the divine bliss that I had found in the absence of the judgement of my left mind...
I realized that the blessing I had received from this experience was the knowledge that deep internal peace is accessible to anyone at any time. I believe the experience of Nirvana exists in the consciousness of our the right hemisphere, and that at any moment, we can choose to hook into that part of our brain.
My stroke of insight is that at the core of my right hemisphere consciousness is a character that is directly connected to my feeling of deep inner peace.
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26405917 - 12/29/19 08:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
I'm more interested in her experience than in the way she chooses to explain it - the book is written more for the general reader than as a scientific work.
The linked article refers to the idea of "left-brained" and "right-brained" personalities being debunked, but that is not really what she talks about in the book:
From the book:
Quote:
Although each of our cerebral hemispheres process information in uniquely different ways, the two work intimately with one another when it comes to just about every action we undertake
From the article:
Quote:
Lateralization of brain function means that there are certain mental processes that are mainly specialized to one of the brain's left or right hemispheres.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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mu5h13
Counsellor

Registered: 06/06/19
Posts: 67
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26406143 - 12/29/19 11:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
There's an interesting book by a neuroanatomist who had a serious left hemisphere stroke (brain hemorrhage) - My Stroke of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor. I've mentioned this book before. The fact that she is writing from the point of view of a scientist, rather than a psychedelic or strongly religious background, makes her comments very interesting.
I initially watched a TED talk where she speaks about her experience, and then by some weird coincidence or synchronicity I found her book in the reduced / remainder pile in one of those discount bookstores that usually only sell a very limited selection of mainstream stuff.

These are some extracts from the book which relate strongly to the current topic:
Quote:
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientists Personal Journey is a chronological documentation of the journey I took into the formless abyss of a silent mind, where the essence of my being became enfolded in a deep inner peace.
As a neuroanatomist, I must say that I learned as much about my brain and how it functions during that stroke, as I had in all my years of academia. By the end of that morning, my consciousness shifted into a perception that I was at one with the universe. Since that time, I have come to understand how it is that we are capable of having a "mystical" or "metaphysical" experience - relative to our brain anatomy.
I never really pondered what it would be like to lose my mind, more specifically, my left mind. I wish there were a safe way to induce this awareness in people. It might prove to be enlightening.
Imagine, if you will, what it would feel like to have each of your natural faculties systematically peeled away from your consciousness. First, imagine you lose your ability to make sense of sound coming in through your ears. You are not deaf, you simply hear all sound as chaos and noise. Second, remove your ability to see the defined forms of any objects in space. You are not blind, you simply cannot see three-dimensionally, or identify color. You have no ability to track an object in motion or distinguish clear boundaries between objects. In addition, common smells become so amplified that they overwhelm you, making it difficult for you to catch your breath.
No longer capable of perceiving temperature, vibration, pain or proprioception (position of your limbs), your awareness of your physical boundaries shift. The essence of your energy expands as it blends with the energy around you, and you sense that you are as big as the universe. Those little voices inside your head, reminding you of who you are and where you live, become silent. You lose memory connection to your old emotional self and the richness of this moment, right her, right now, captivates your perception. Everything, including the life force you are, radiates pure energy. With childlike curiosity, your heart soars in peace and your mind explores new ways of swimming in a sea of euphoria.
I loved the bliss of drifting in the current of the eternal flow... it was beautiful there. My spirit beamed free, enormous and peaceful...In the rapture of an engulfing bliss...
I love knowing my spirit was at one with the universe and in the flow with everything around me... I loved the feeling of deep inner peace that flooded the core of my very being.
...the peaceful tranquility of the divine bliss that I had found in the absence of the judgement of my left mind...
I realized that the blessing I had received from this experience was the knowledge that deep internal peace is accessible to anyone at any time. I believe the experience of Nirvana exists in the consciousness of our the right hemisphere, and that at any moment, we can choose to hook into that part of our brain.
My stroke of insight is that at the core of my right hemisphere consciousness is a character that is directly connected to my feeling of deep inner peace.
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
The theory she uses to arrive at her conclusions have been debunked, but better more detailed theory still exists to explain how she got to the same point.
For example, the left hemisphere is where much of the detail-focussed processing takes place, and as such, a left-hemisphere stroke or impairment will impact the ability to define things as separate things, thus the reality perceived is much more of a "one-ness" kind of reality, explaining how she arrived at the sense of her right brain being from where her inner peace originates.
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redgreenvines
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: mu5h13]
#26406397 - 12/29/19 01:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I dont see proof of that, but as a neuroscientist, I am sure she could reflexively identify her stroke event context - even before resorting to the left brain right brain mythology thought train to get herself into gear with it.
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nooneman


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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#26406412 - 12/29/19 01:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deep trips can be described with language. I've done it myself and seen it done by others many times. The experience is not "ineffable," it just takes some effort and skill to describe it. Tons of people do it all the time.
I think the problem is misunderstanding about the definition of "egodeath," and the fact that some people like to use egodeath just to brag. "Oh yeah man I took two grams and had full on egodeath while talking with my friends" that kind of shit where the term gets casually thrown around with no regard to what it actually refers to. Which is not anything more than the extremely intense effects of high dose psychedelics and which is accessible by anyone willing to take a high enough dose.
Anyway, we could probably argue about the definition of egodeath all day, but people are still going to assume it's about "ego" as in egotistical rather than the sense of identity, self, and control over the mind.
This misunderstanding about egodeath has been going on for at least the last 6 or so years with people thinking it's about "ego" as in "egotistical" when it has nothing to do with that. I don't think it'll stop in the next 10 years. Perhaps it's time for the term as a whole to simply be retired. Whether the term exists or not, the state of loss of identity and loss of control over the mind exists independently from its label.
I'm not crazy about response threads like this either. If you want to respond, the original thread is a fine place to do it.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Asura]
#26406837 - 12/29/19 08:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry about this late reply but after I made the OP I just sat back and waited and am only catching up now...
Quote:
acidgoofy said: Then on the weekend I was going out with a friend to dance (took some mdma). I sat down for a minute, my friend said something to me and then BOOM the whole dream was there before my inner eye. And the dream was about this night and its happening right now. Some things from the dream already happened and others where about to happen and I knew it. For about 5-10 minutes I could predict nearly everything that was going on around me. And it exactly happened the way I predicted it. Kind of felt like having an ongoing synchronicity but a bit different, it was really cool but also fucking mind blowing.
Holy shit, that's intense. But yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I think we have to be as assistive in this as possible, and -well- I guess is it ok to start a new thread on the same issue, but are we actually discussing a different thing or was it an ego-ic reflex that erupted as a new thread? (no matter either way)
Yes good post RGV. No it's not the same thing here. I posted all over that other linked thread but I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic. Transcendence is non-specific as to its object (a necessary step, the letting go of all identification). "E-D" is quite specific and fosters further attachment, as well as being poorly definable. Of course I have no power to prevent people from discussing it further, nor would I bother to try, but I'm trying to push beyond it, as time allows. 
Quote:
Asura said: That other thread is interesting to me, because I saw it as an attempt to just get a conversation started and I saw it all in a very positive way. Such a departure from my past thinking. I blame mushrooms 
A few trips ago, I started as a "hardcore atheist". And when I came out I was not. None of my beliefs changed. But the label itself was gone. I have lost a few labels this way and with each one there appears to be more room in my mind. That part of me that identifies as "self" may not be dying but there is change there.
Oh yes, I think it was interesting too but rather antagonistic. I attempted to echo that in the OP without being quite so harsh - maybe you had to be there. I think what it really stemmed from was the false equivalence "E-D" = enlightenment. Of course it doesn't.
This gets complicated from the common opinion that Buddhism frowns on psychedelics. Buddhism advises avoidance of inebriants primarily while practicing, but the historical records are full of drunken masters practicing crazy wisdom. So who's to say?
Nevertheless the strong experience of temporary reduction of identification with a "self" from psychedelics leads a lot of people astray IMHO, thinking they've experienced the equivalent of enlightenment. Add that to a strong sense of self and you have a recipe for psychedelic gurus to arise. Hmm, no shortage of those either. 
My real point here was to bring up the other topics - the ineffability of deep trips (at least sometimes) and the strange shit that goes hand in hand with the experience. I appreciate what people have been bringing to it here so far. 
This is as far as I can get today - first harvest in years awaits and probably trip on the last day of the decade. 
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: nooneman]
#26407155 - 12/30/19 02:06 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Deep trips can be described with language. I've done it myself and seen it done by others many times. The experience is not "ineffable," it just takes some effort and skill to describe it. Tons of people do it all the time.
I think the problem is misunderstanding about the definition of "egodeath," and the fact that some people like to use egodeath just to brag. "Oh yeah man I took two grams and had full on egodeath while talking with my friends" that kind of shit where the term gets casually thrown around with no regard to what it actually refers to. Which is not anything more than the extremely intense effects of high dose psychedelics and which is accessible by anyone willing to take a high enough dose.
I think what you stated is the crux, aggravating irony so many are stating here; people with no clue are bragging, and thus have obviously not wrestled with their ego at all lol.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Vibe_Enthusiast
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26407337 - 12/30/19 06:41 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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I wish I have had an extreme deep experience so that I could understand more where a lot of you guys may stand. I've never had a full on ego dissolution of self. But, I have had it to the point where it was very settle. 4.5g on one of my hikes, alone and on a beautiful trail.
I spent the peak hanging in the hammock, plugged my headphones in.. and let the music take me over. I've never had the "ego death" that most of you speak of.. (complete loss of being human I should say) - but during this trip I was able to comfortably "let go". I told my body I would be back. I knew I was in a good comfy spot - I wasn't scared at all.
The reason I don't identify this as a "complete" loss of self, is for the sheer reason.. that if I opened my eyes I always came back in touch with myself. I never felt"lost", nor "gone". But, when I closed my eyes and focused on the beautiful music of Pink Floyd, it took me too this spot.. where I didn't feel my body.. just a dark place of euphoria & being the music.
At some points, it would get a bit intense and I would open my eyes and was always coherent with what was going on within my surroundings and knew I was tripping. What I'm saying is I almost was disengaging from myself but being attatched when I wanted to at the same time.
It was a very strange and odd experience, so beautiful and not intimidating at all. It was very welcoming. That's about as far as I've ever gotten on the train of "losing self" - which is completley fine with me as for it made it appealing to me to scaring me shitless.
Another gram or so and I'm more than sure I would have lost that "pull back" if I needed it. The cool thing about that was I had a.. let's use the phrase "safe word"?
If things started to get a little much all I had to do was open my eyes. I thought it was pretty neat that I was able to play in both realms. One day I'll take the plunge. In no rush, I've learned a lot from my latest trip, mostly on how much we should appreciate a sober, normal functioning brain that a lot of us take for granted.
Ps - I'm sure a lot of you have felt the experience of being a pilot of this body. This happens to me while sober as well. To know you're running this "robot" - that's not really you. "You" were placed in this meat body. You didn't choose the color of your eyes, the size of your lip, hair color, nothing - you're just playing this game with the cards that you were dealt. Hell, you didn't even choose "life".
You didn't ask to pay bills, enjoy coffee, go to work, experience emotion - it's all just there as a "game" in a sense. It's a rabbit hole of a discussion, but I love the rabbit hole
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
#26407704 - 12/30/19 12:23 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Tripping is always trippy of course. Ego death, having long conversations with a tree, or just realizing that two exact opposite arguments about fact can be equally true at the same time are all things that happened to me. Not unusual at all.
I think two events stands out.
1. I felt trapped in my circumstance so my wife and I goes to park to take some shrooms. I take around 1 gram and feel almost nothing. However, suddenly both of us feel like we are unable to stand up straight, fortunately we brought a blanket, so we lay down and start tripping intensely (much more than expected from a one gram dosage). We tripp hard for an hour. And personally I feel like I come close to realizing ways to feel less trapped. About then, a bird flying above drops a huge earthworm down on our blanket, its big enough to make a thud. We both stare at the worm wriggling around, and both of us think we are hallucinating. It is just so surreal. I pick up the worm from the blanket, put it in the grass and it wriggles down and away. At the same time I realize that I am not trapped, and I see ways to move forward (just like the worm that escaped from the bird) and the trip is over and we both feel totally sober.
2. It was the first time for a friend tripping. We went to the woods because he really wanted to trip close to nature. What happened really freaked me out because several wild animals came to him, it was like some cinderella type experience. I think he believed it was all in his mind, but he literally had squirrels and birds (including a duck that brought its ducklings to him) all over him. I have never seen wild animals behave like that.
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Aldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26410572 - 01/01/20 08:16 AM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic.
Now we can argue about the semantics of transcendence... 
Just kidding, although I was curious to see how it was defined on wikipedia:
Quote:
In religious experience transcendence is a state of being that has overcome the limitations of physical existence and by some definitions has also become independent of it.
Mystical experience is thought of as a particularly advanced state of self-transcendence, in which the sense of a separate self is abandoned.
The first sentence is interesting. On these high dose trips, regardless of whatever is happening to my sense of self, something that really strikes me when I am 'back' is the feeling that I have encountered some realm which is 'beyond physical existence' in some way, a realm of pure consciousness from which reality is created and in which you have potentially godlike powers, as though you have seen the 'whole' and now you are back at the level of your individual consciousness.
It's a very powerful feeling which is not necessarily 'mystical' or religious but really gives a sense of (non-visually) breaking through into some other layer of reality beyond this one (similar to the ideas discussed in the 'heroic dose' thread).
It is easy to bracket this in with the whole 'ego death' / loss of self thing but although they are linked I guess this is a slightly different topic.
Quote:
Vibe_Enthusiast wrote: That's about as far as I've ever gotten on the train of "losing self" - which is completley fine with me as for it made it appealing to me to scaring me shitless.
Another gram or so and I'm more than sure I would have lost that "pull back" if I needed it. The cool thing about that was I had a.. let's use the phrase "safe word"?
If the trip is very intense it can be easier to 'fall forward' into the trip and just surrender to it - it is very odd how the trip can flip from being a surging cauldron of insanity to a blissful refuge where you can finally let go - maybe they should call it a 'comfy ego nap' to make it sound less scary. If you are fighting the trip you are on the scary side of the door and you might as well go through it.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26411215 - 01/01/20 04:36 PM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic.
Now we can argue about the semantics of transcendence... 
Just kidding,
Some things can only be described with allegory, metaphor, allusion - in other words, poetry. This Dylan quote is apropos:
Quote:
Now the rainman gave me two cures Then he said, "Jump right in" The one was Texas medicine The other was just railroad gin An' like a fool I mixed them An' it strangled up my mind An' now people just get uglier An' I have no sense of time Oh, Mama, can this really be the end To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again
Wonderful description of the depths of schizophrenia.
For the ecstasies of psychedelics this however is more appropriate:
Quote:
And take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind Down the foggy ruins of time Far past the frozen leaves The haunted frightened trees Out to the windy beach Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky With one hand waving free Silhouetted by the sea Circled by the circus sands With all memory and fate Driven deep beneath the waves Let me forget about today until tomorrow Hey! Mr. Tambourine man, play a song for me I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to Hey! Mr. Tambourine man, play a song for me In the jingle jangle morning I'll come following you
Not to say it's all been done, since the doors open ever outwards, but just to say that it's a perennial preoccupation.
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