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Andropolis
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26398308 - 12/23/19 09:14 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I may never revisit this thread as I’ve never actually posted here... but wanted to thank you for typing that book excerpt out.
I saw that TED Talk about a year or so ago and thought it was really interesting, but I wasn’t as focused on egoic death through means of meditation... or psychedelics (which I’ve never done as of yet).
What she writes is fascinating. ...to think our boundaries could dissolve if a certain portion of our brain were subdued. It’s almost as if a portion of the brain is a limiting device... greatly impeding our sense of reality. It makes me ponder death and if our inner most self really is liberated and melds into the ocean of Oneness upon dying.
If I may venture into some mystical discussion. In Judaism, the personified descriptions of “God” are only metaphorical. To say God is a “Father”, or one who sits on a throne is purely described this way because language has no words (and never could) to describe what/who God is. All of these “being-like” attributes are purely anthropomorphic. In fact, to say God has any kind of identifiable boundary is considered idolatry.
When “Jesus” goes into the wilderness during his fast, he’s tempted by “the devil”... which could be interpreted as his own egoic construct of separateness. The ego tempts with riches, fame, power, lust,... all the things the separate egoic self wants... but in the story, he overcomes this egoic tendency and makes the realization “I Am”. “I and “the Father” are One”. These statements are far beyond what the typical understand of them is.
They’re statements of egoic death... symbolized in the ritual of baptismal death, and rebirth.
I’m not proselytizing as I find this underlying deep meaning in all religions... I don’t really care what one identifies with. But the topic of egoic death and how it’s at the heart of most religions (though that’s not typically realized) is fascinating. I see it as the entire purpose and goal of life.... to willfully diminish and subdue the ego until one melts boundlessly into the I Am.
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Andropolis]
#26398482 - 12/24/19 01:21 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whose ego is dying in this process?
How are you "you" at any point in the process if the ego secedes? Who/what is recording the experience into your consciousness for you to remember that you had "ego death" at all?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Peyote Road
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26398497 - 12/24/19 01:49 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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the brain?
-------------------- The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Peyote Road]
#26398507 - 12/24/19 01:57 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you define self as the brain?
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26398660 - 12/24/19 05:55 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
There's an interesting book by a neuroanatomist who had a serious left hemisphere stroke (brain hemorrhage) - My Stroke of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor. I've mentioned this book before. The fact that she is writing from the point of view of a scientist, rather than a psychedelic or strongly religious background, makes her comments very interesting.
I initially watched a TED talk where she speaks about her experience, and then by some weird coincidence or synchronicity I found her book in the reduced / remainder pile in one of those discount bookstores that usually only sell a very limited selection of mainstream stuff.

These are some extracts from the book which relate strongly to the current topic:
Quote:
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientists Personal Journey is a chronological documentation of the journey I took into the formless abyss of a silent mind, where the essence of my being became enfolded in a deep inner peace.
As a neuroanatomist, I must say that I learned as much about my brain and how it functions during that stroke, as I had in all my years of academia. By the end of that morning, my consciousness shifted into a perception that I was at one with the universe. Since that time, I have come to understand how it is that we are capable of having a "mystical" or "metaphysical" experience - relative to our brain anatomy.
I never really pondered what it would be like to lose my mind, more specifically, my left mind. I wish there were a safe way to induce this awareness in people. It might prove to be enlightening.
Imagine, if you will, what it would feel like to have each of your natural faculties systematically peeled away from your consciousness. First, imagine you lose your ability to make sense of sound coming in through your ears. You are not deaf, you simply hear all sound as chaos and noise. Second, remove your ability to see the defined forms of any objects in space. You are not blind, you simply cannot see three-dimensionally, or identify color. You have no ability to track an object in motion or distinguish clear boundaries between objects. In addition, common smells become so amplified that they overwhelm you, making it difficult for you to catch your breath.
No longer capable of perceiving temperature, vibration, pain or proprioception (position of your limbs), your awareness of your physical boundaries shift. The essence of your energy expands as it blends with the energy around you, and you sense that you are as big as the universe. Those little voices inside your head, reminding you of who you are and where you live, become silent. You lose memory connection to your old emotional self and the richness of this moment, right her, right now, captivates your perception. Everything, including the life force you are, radiates pure energy. With childlike curiosity, your heart soars in peace and your mind explores new ways of swimming in a sea of euphoria.
I loved the bliss of drifting in the current of the eternal flow... it was beautiful there. My spirit beamed free, enormous and peaceful...In the rapture of an engulfing bliss...
I love knowing my spirit was at one with the universe and in the flow with everything around me... I loved the feeling of deep inner peace that flooded the core of my very being.
...the peaceful tranquility of the divine bliss that I had found in the absence of the judgement of my left mind...
I realized that the blessing I had received from this experience was the knowledge that deep internal peace is accessible to anyone at any time. I believe the experience of Nirvana exists in the consciousness of our the right hemisphere, and that at any moment, we can choose to hook into that part of our brain.
My stroke of insight is that at the core of my right hemisphere consciousness is a character that is directly connected to my feeling of deep inner peace.
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
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Aldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26405917 - 12/29/19 08:37 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
I'm more interested in her experience than in the way she chooses to explain it - the book is written more for the general reader than as a scientific work.
The linked article refers to the idea of "left-brained" and "right-brained" personalities being debunked, but that is not really what she talks about in the book:
From the book:
Quote:
Although each of our cerebral hemispheres process information in uniquely different ways, the two work intimately with one another when it comes to just about every action we undertake
From the article:
Quote:
Lateralization of brain function means that there are certain mental processes that are mainly specialized to one of the brain's left or right hemispheres.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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mu5h13
Counsellor

Registered: 06/06/19
Posts: 67
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: redgreenvines]
#26406143 - 12/29/19 11:09 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
People will stop calling it ego death after a while of approval of psychedelics for medical treatment imo, the psychologists etc will come up with all sorts of terminology for things. Ego death will become a thing of the past eventually IMHO.
There's an interesting book by a neuroanatomist who had a serious left hemisphere stroke (brain hemorrhage) - My Stroke of Insight by Jill Bolte Taylor. I've mentioned this book before. The fact that she is writing from the point of view of a scientist, rather than a psychedelic or strongly religious background, makes her comments very interesting.
I initially watched a TED talk where she speaks about her experience, and then by some weird coincidence or synchronicity I found her book in the reduced / remainder pile in one of those discount bookstores that usually only sell a very limited selection of mainstream stuff.

These are some extracts from the book which relate strongly to the current topic:
Quote:
My Stroke of Insight: A Brain Scientists Personal Journey is a chronological documentation of the journey I took into the formless abyss of a silent mind, where the essence of my being became enfolded in a deep inner peace.
As a neuroanatomist, I must say that I learned as much about my brain and how it functions during that stroke, as I had in all my years of academia. By the end of that morning, my consciousness shifted into a perception that I was at one with the universe. Since that time, I have come to understand how it is that we are capable of having a "mystical" or "metaphysical" experience - relative to our brain anatomy.
I never really pondered what it would be like to lose my mind, more specifically, my left mind. I wish there were a safe way to induce this awareness in people. It might prove to be enlightening.
Imagine, if you will, what it would feel like to have each of your natural faculties systematically peeled away from your consciousness. First, imagine you lose your ability to make sense of sound coming in through your ears. You are not deaf, you simply hear all sound as chaos and noise. Second, remove your ability to see the defined forms of any objects in space. You are not blind, you simply cannot see three-dimensionally, or identify color. You have no ability to track an object in motion or distinguish clear boundaries between objects. In addition, common smells become so amplified that they overwhelm you, making it difficult for you to catch your breath.
No longer capable of perceiving temperature, vibration, pain or proprioception (position of your limbs), your awareness of your physical boundaries shift. The essence of your energy expands as it blends with the energy around you, and you sense that you are as big as the universe. Those little voices inside your head, reminding you of who you are and where you live, become silent. You lose memory connection to your old emotional self and the richness of this moment, right her, right now, captivates your perception. Everything, including the life force you are, radiates pure energy. With childlike curiosity, your heart soars in peace and your mind explores new ways of swimming in a sea of euphoria.
I loved the bliss of drifting in the current of the eternal flow... it was beautiful there. My spirit beamed free, enormous and peaceful...In the rapture of an engulfing bliss...
I love knowing my spirit was at one with the universe and in the flow with everything around me... I loved the feeling of deep inner peace that flooded the core of my very being.
...the peaceful tranquility of the divine bliss that I had found in the absence of the judgement of my left mind...
I realized that the blessing I had received from this experience was the knowledge that deep internal peace is accessible to anyone at any time. I believe the experience of Nirvana exists in the consciousness of our the right hemisphere, and that at any moment, we can choose to hook into that part of our brain.
My stroke of insight is that at the core of my right hemisphere consciousness is a character that is directly connected to my feeling of deep inner peace.
Jill Taylor invokes the left brain right brain theory which has been effectively debunked over and over
The theory she uses to arrive at her conclusions have been debunked, but better more detailed theory still exists to explain how she got to the same point.
For example, the left hemisphere is where much of the detail-focussed processing takes place, and as such, a left-hemisphere stroke or impairment will impact the ability to define things as separate things, thus the reality perceived is much more of a "one-ness" kind of reality, explaining how she arrived at the sense of her right brain being from where her inner peace originates.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: mu5h13]
#26406397 - 12/29/19 01:51 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I dont see proof of that, but as a neuroscientist, I am sure she could reflexively identify her stroke event context - even before resorting to the left brain right brain mythology thought train to get herself into gear with it.
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nooneman


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Posts: 14,561
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup] 1
#26406412 - 12/29/19 01:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Deep trips can be described with language. I've done it myself and seen it done by others many times. The experience is not "ineffable," it just takes some effort and skill to describe it. Tons of people do it all the time.
I think the problem is misunderstanding about the definition of "egodeath," and the fact that some people like to use egodeath just to brag. "Oh yeah man I took two grams and had full on egodeath while talking with my friends" that kind of shit where the term gets casually thrown around with no regard to what it actually refers to. Which is not anything more than the extremely intense effects of high dose psychedelics and which is accessible by anyone willing to take a high enough dose.
Anyway, we could probably argue about the definition of egodeath all day, but people are still going to assume it's about "ego" as in egotistical rather than the sense of identity, self, and control over the mind.
This misunderstanding about egodeath has been going on for at least the last 6 or so years with people thinking it's about "ego" as in "egotistical" when it has nothing to do with that. I don't think it'll stop in the next 10 years. Perhaps it's time for the term as a whole to simply be retired. Whether the term exists or not, the state of loss of identity and loss of control over the mind exists independently from its label.
I'm not crazy about response threads like this either. If you want to respond, the original thread is a fine place to do it.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Asura]
#26406837 - 12/29/19 08:13 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sorry about this late reply but after I made the OP I just sat back and waited and am only catching up now...
Quote:
acidgoofy said: Then on the weekend I was going out with a friend to dance (took some mdma). I sat down for a minute, my friend said something to me and then BOOM the whole dream was there before my inner eye. And the dream was about this night and its happening right now. Some things from the dream already happened and others where about to happen and I knew it. For about 5-10 minutes I could predict nearly everything that was going on around me. And it exactly happened the way I predicted it. Kind of felt like having an ongoing synchronicity but a bit different, it was really cool but also fucking mind blowing.
Holy shit, that's intense. But yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: I think we have to be as assistive in this as possible, and -well- I guess is it ok to start a new thread on the same issue, but are we actually discussing a different thing or was it an ego-ic reflex that erupted as a new thread? (no matter either way)
Yes good post RGV. No it's not the same thing here. I posted all over that other linked thread but I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic. Transcendence is non-specific as to its object (a necessary step, the letting go of all identification). "E-D" is quite specific and fosters further attachment, as well as being poorly definable. Of course I have no power to prevent people from discussing it further, nor would I bother to try, but I'm trying to push beyond it, as time allows. 
Quote:
Asura said: That other thread is interesting to me, because I saw it as an attempt to just get a conversation started and I saw it all in a very positive way. Such a departure from my past thinking. I blame mushrooms 
A few trips ago, I started as a "hardcore atheist". And when I came out I was not. None of my beliefs changed. But the label itself was gone. I have lost a few labels this way and with each one there appears to be more room in my mind. That part of me that identifies as "self" may not be dying but there is change there.
Oh yes, I think it was interesting too but rather antagonistic. I attempted to echo that in the OP without being quite so harsh - maybe you had to be there. I think what it really stemmed from was the false equivalence "E-D" = enlightenment. Of course it doesn't.
This gets complicated from the common opinion that Buddhism frowns on psychedelics. Buddhism advises avoidance of inebriants primarily while practicing, but the historical records are full of drunken masters practicing crazy wisdom. So who's to say?
Nevertheless the strong experience of temporary reduction of identification with a "self" from psychedelics leads a lot of people astray IMHO, thinking they've experienced the equivalent of enlightenment. Add that to a strong sense of self and you have a recipe for psychedelic gurus to arise. Hmm, no shortage of those either. 
My real point here was to bring up the other topics - the ineffability of deep trips (at least sometimes) and the strange shit that goes hand in hand with the experience. I appreciate what people have been bringing to it here so far. 
This is as far as I can get today - first harvest in years awaits and probably trip on the last day of the decade. 
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Loaded Shaman
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: nooneman]
#26407155 - 12/30/19 02:06 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Deep trips can be described with language. I've done it myself and seen it done by others many times. The experience is not "ineffable," it just takes some effort and skill to describe it. Tons of people do it all the time.
I think the problem is misunderstanding about the definition of "egodeath," and the fact that some people like to use egodeath just to brag. "Oh yeah man I took two grams and had full on egodeath while talking with my friends" that kind of shit where the term gets casually thrown around with no regard to what it actually refers to. Which is not anything more than the extremely intense effects of high dose psychedelics and which is accessible by anyone willing to take a high enough dose.
I think what you stated is the crux, aggravating irony so many are stating here; people with no clue are bragging, and thus have obviously not wrestled with their ego at all lol.
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  "Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius
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Vibe_Enthusiast
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
#26407337 - 12/30/19 06:41 AM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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I wish I have had an extreme deep experience so that I could understand more where a lot of you guys may stand. I've never had a full on ego dissolution of self. But, I have had it to the point where it was very settle. 4.5g on one of my hikes, alone and on a beautiful trail.
I spent the peak hanging in the hammock, plugged my headphones in.. and let the music take me over. I've never had the "ego death" that most of you speak of.. (complete loss of being human I should say) - but during this trip I was able to comfortably "let go". I told my body I would be back. I knew I was in a good comfy spot - I wasn't scared at all.
The reason I don't identify this as a "complete" loss of self, is for the sheer reason.. that if I opened my eyes I always came back in touch with myself. I never felt"lost", nor "gone". But, when I closed my eyes and focused on the beautiful music of Pink Floyd, it took me too this spot.. where I didn't feel my body.. just a dark place of euphoria & being the music.
At some points, it would get a bit intense and I would open my eyes and was always coherent with what was going on within my surroundings and knew I was tripping. What I'm saying is I almost was disengaging from myself but being attatched when I wanted to at the same time.
It was a very strange and odd experience, so beautiful and not intimidating at all. It was very welcoming. That's about as far as I've ever gotten on the train of "losing self" - which is completley fine with me as for it made it appealing to me to scaring me shitless.
Another gram or so and I'm more than sure I would have lost that "pull back" if I needed it. The cool thing about that was I had a.. let's use the phrase "safe word"?
If things started to get a little much all I had to do was open my eyes. I thought it was pretty neat that I was able to play in both realms. One day I'll take the plunge. In no rush, I've learned a lot from my latest trip, mostly on how much we should appreciate a sober, normal functioning brain that a lot of us take for granted.
Ps - I'm sure a lot of you have felt the experience of being a pilot of this body. This happens to me while sober as well. To know you're running this "robot" - that's not really you. "You" were placed in this meat body. You didn't choose the color of your eyes, the size of your lip, hair color, nothing - you're just playing this game with the cards that you were dealt. Hell, you didn't even choose "life".
You didn't ask to pay bills, enjoy coffee, go to work, experience emotion - it's all just there as a "game" in a sense. It's a rabbit hole of a discussion, but I love the rabbit hole
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DrFungi
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Vibe_Enthusiast]
#26407704 - 12/30/19 12:23 PM (4 years, 30 days ago) |
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Tripping is always trippy of course. Ego death, having long conversations with a tree, or just realizing that two exact opposite arguments about fact can be equally true at the same time are all things that happened to me. Not unusual at all.
I think two events stands out.
1. I felt trapped in my circumstance so my wife and I goes to park to take some shrooms. I take around 1 gram and feel almost nothing. However, suddenly both of us feel like we are unable to stand up straight, fortunately we brought a blanket, so we lay down and start tripping intensely (much more than expected from a one gram dosage). We tripp hard for an hour. And personally I feel like I come close to realizing ways to feel less trapped. About then, a bird flying above drops a huge earthworm down on our blanket, its big enough to make a thud. We both stare at the worm wriggling around, and both of us think we are hallucinating. It is just so surreal. I pick up the worm from the blanket, put it in the grass and it wriggles down and away. At the same time I realize that I am not trapped, and I see ways to move forward (just like the worm that escaped from the bird) and the trip is over and we both feel totally sober.
2. It was the first time for a friend tripping. We went to the woods because he really wanted to trip close to nature. What happened really freaked me out because several wild animals came to him, it was like some cinderella type experience. I think he believed it was all in his mind, but he literally had squirrels and birds (including a duck that brought its ducklings to him) all over him. I have never seen wild animals behave like that.
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Aldebaran
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: PrimalSoup]
#26410572 - 01/01/20 08:16 AM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic.
Now we can argue about the semantics of transcendence... 
Just kidding, although I was curious to see how it was defined on wikipedia:
Quote:
In religious experience transcendence is a state of being that has overcome the limitations of physical existence and by some definitions has also become independent of it.
Mystical experience is thought of as a particularly advanced state of self-transcendence, in which the sense of a separate self is abandoned.
The first sentence is interesting. On these high dose trips, regardless of whatever is happening to my sense of self, something that really strikes me when I am 'back' is the feeling that I have encountered some realm which is 'beyond physical existence' in some way, a realm of pure consciousness from which reality is created and in which you have potentially godlike powers, as though you have seen the 'whole' and now you are back at the level of your individual consciousness.
It's a very powerful feeling which is not necessarily 'mystical' or religious but really gives a sense of (non-visually) breaking through into some other layer of reality beyond this one (similar to the ideas discussed in the 'heroic dose' thread).
It is easy to bracket this in with the whole 'ego death' / loss of self thing but although they are linked I guess this is a slightly different topic.
Quote:
Vibe_Enthusiast wrote: That's about as far as I've ever gotten on the train of "losing self" - which is completley fine with me as for it made it appealing to me to scaring me shitless.
Another gram or so and I'm more than sure I would have lost that "pull back" if I needed it. The cool thing about that was I had a.. let's use the phrase "safe word"?
If the trip is very intense it can be easier to 'fall forward' into the trip and just surrender to it - it is very odd how the trip can flip from being a surging cauldron of insanity to a blissful refuge where you can finally let go - maybe they should call it a 'comfy ego nap' to make it sound less scary. If you are fighting the trip you are on the scary side of the door and you might as well go through it.
-------------------- I wrote that, but I meant something else
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Believing psychedelics haven't anything to do with - WTF was that? [Re: Aldebaran]
#26411215 - 01/01/20 04:36 PM (4 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
Aldebaran said:
Quote:
I started this thread specifically to not refer to the subject there at all, just transcendence, because the other thread was mostly semantic.
Now we can argue about the semantics of transcendence... 
Just kidding,
Some things can only be described with allegory, metaphor, allusion - in other words, poetry. This Dylan quote is apropos:
Quote:
Now the rainman gave me two cures Then he said, "Jump right in" The one was Texas medicine The other was just railroad gin An' like a fool I mixed them An' it strangled up my mind An' now people just get uglier An' I have no sense of time Oh, Mama, can this really be the end To be stuck inside of Mobile With the Memphis blues again
Wonderful description of the depths of schizophrenia.
For the ecstasies of psychedelics this however is more appropriate:
Quote:
And take me disappearing through the smoke rings of my mind Down the foggy ruins of time Far past the frozen leaves The haunted frightened trees Out to the windy beach Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Yes, to dance beneath the diamond sky With one hand waving free Silhouetted by the sea Circled by the circus sands With all memory and fate Driven deep beneath the waves Let me forget about today until tomorrow Hey! Mr. Tambourine man, play a song for me I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to Hey! Mr. Tambourine man, play a song for me In the jingle jangle morning I'll come following you
Not to say it's all been done, since the doors open ever outwards, but just to say that it's a perennial preoccupation.
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if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat youPrimal's simple tested teks and projects: Wheat Prep 2.0 Acidic Tea Tek Potency Project!
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