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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26395713 - 12/22/19 02:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Heads of state always say the objective of war is peace.  He's not going to say his objective is never ending war.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26395765 - 12/22/19 03:03 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I guess you didn't read the article.  Zelensky's already agreed to a ceasefire.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26395801 - 12/22/19 03:23 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

What is your point with this thing with the military aid?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy] * 1
    #26395817 - 12/22/19 03:30 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You said "the military aid was so vital to his country".  I'm saying it's not really so vital.  In fact, I think Zelensky would rather use the money for things that benefit average Ukrainian citizens.

Your point of view is very US centric, and that may be why the United States wasn't even invited to the negotiations.  It should just be about who has the biggest/most guns.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26395866 - 12/22/19 03:53 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

He specifically asked for javelin missiles.

Discussing this topic with you is pointless. You cannot debate anything having to do with Russia with an open mind.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26395876 - 12/22/19 03:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

koods said:
He specifically asked for javelin missiles.

Discussing this topic with you is pointless. You cannot debate anything having to do with Russia with an open mind.



And now that the US is out of the negotiation picture, he is specifically asking for peace.

The US only knows how to negotiate by saying "if we don't get our way, we'll beat you up (with our javelin missiles)!"

Ukraine is doing better than that now.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26395882 - 12/22/19 04:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I’m sure he wants peace. You don’t get peace being defenseless. You get over run by the imperialist Russian dictator

The Ukraine shouldn’t be taking military advice from Putin’s shroomery mouthpiece


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


Edited by koods (12/22/19 04:09 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26395886 - 12/22/19 04:09 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

You were just proven wrong.  :shrug:


Again, that's the America-centric attitude.  America wasn't invited to these negotiations.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26395999 - 12/22/19 05:19 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

For those who believe that the House vote was not partisan but rather based on the demonstration of guilt:

"One of the county chairman came to me and said, 'I have to speak with you.' And I said, 'sure' and sat down. He said, 'I just want to let you know that you have to vote for impeachment.' I said, 'What do you mean?' He said, 'You've got to vote for impeachment. If you don't, you're not going to be able to run in my county,'" Van Drew said, without naming the county party chair.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26396006 - 12/22/19 05:26 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Some more:

Robert Ray served as the independent counsel from 1999 to 2002, during which he led the investigation into the Whitewater controversy.

Robert Ray: I hate to sound too practical about this, but the trial of an impeachment by the Senate is all about counting votes. This impeachment effort is an entirely partisan effort (as evidenced by the House vote on the two articles) that will not even garner a majority of the Senate, much less the vote of two-thirds of that body necessary for removal of the President from office.

Consequently, it is entirely proper for a Senate majority to say in answer to this partisan House endeavor that no trial is warranted unless and until there is bipartisan support for impeachment. Otherwise, as Sen. Mitch McConnell has noted already, this President or any President is subject to impeachment at the whim of an "intemperate" (Hamilton's word) majority of the House.

Frankly, I think the Senate needs to send the House a strong message that -- absent bipartisan consensus -- there will be no trial, no witnesses and no further delay of the people's business. That can be accomplished at the earliest available opportunity by granting a proper motion by the President through his counsel to dismiss the impeachment articles in the Senate. That can be accomplished by a simple vote of the Republican majority. I believe it will pass in January.


Edited by Metoo (12/22/19 05:28 PM)


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26396055 - 12/22/19 05:54 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You said "the military aid was so vital to his country".  I'm saying it's not really so vital.  In fact, I think Zelensky would rather use the money for things that benefit average Ukrainian citizens.

Your point of view is very US centric, and that may be why the United States wasn't even invited to the negotiations.  It should just be about who has the biggest/most guns.




It's vital to his country in the sense that he claims they are at war. 

Within an assumption of war, military capital is vital.  He said they are at war.  States don't always tell the truth, but whatever the state says is happening is what it orients it's policy around.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396072 - 12/22/19 06:01 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

They are at war.  But they managed to negotiate a ceasefire without US involvement and without US Javelins.  And with a ceasefire, Javelins are no longer necessary.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396086 - 12/22/19 06:08 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Consequently, it is entirely proper for a Senate majority to say in answer to this partisan House endeavor that no trial is warranted unless and until there is bipartisan support for impeachment




Wow.  That's what they are trying to push now.  You can't impeach a president unless his own party goes along with it too to some undefined extent.

Im pretty sure that is not the case legally right now.

At some place the congress is seen as a democratic expression of the people.  Whatever it decides is too.  If it votes to impeach, that's a democratic expression of the people, as much as such a thing can be expressed within the system.


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396089 - 12/22/19 06:10 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They are at war.  But they managed to negotiate a ceasefire without US involvement and without US Javelins.  And with a ceasefire, Javelins are no longer necessary.




Is that the president of Ukraine's position?  They don't need this military aid anymore?


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396108 - 12/22/19 06:28 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Wow.  That's what they are trying to push now.  You can't impeach a president unless his own party goes along with it too to some undefined extent.

Im pretty sure that is not the case legally right now.

At some place the congress is seen as a democratic expression of the people.  Whatever it decides is too.  If it votes to impeach, that's a democratic expression of the people, as much as such a thing can be expressed within the system.




Inpeachment is not a legal but rather a political process so your objection is ill founded. Besides, Senate
is seen as a democratic expression of the people.  Whatever it decides is too.  If it votes to dismiss the Congess motion, that's a democratic expression of the people, as much as such a thing can be expressed within the system


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26396119 - 12/22/19 06:33 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
For those who believe that the House vote was not partisan but rather based on the demonstration of guilt:

"One of the county chairman came to me and said, 'I have to speak with you.' And I said, 'sure' and sat down. He said, 'I just want to let you know that you have to vote for impeachment.' I said, 'What do you mean?' He said, 'You've got to vote for impeachment. If you don't, you're not going to be able to run in my county,'" Van Drew said, without naming the county party chair.




“Without naming the party chair. “

Fake news


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396124 - 12/22/19 06:36 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

JohnRainy said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
They are at war.  But they managed to negotiate a ceasefire without US involvement and without US Javelins.  And with a ceasefire, Javelins are no longer necessary.




Is that the president of Ukraine's position?  They don't need this military aid anymore?




The latest funding bill had aid for Ukraine and trump thretened to veto because of it. Zelensky knows trump has it out for him and his countryand he’a dealing with a sociopath


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: Metoo]
    #26396143 - 12/22/19 06:46 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Besides, Senate
is seen as a democratic expression of the people.  Whatever it decides is too.  If it votes to dismiss the Congess motion, that's a democratic expression of the people, as much as such a thing can be expressed within the system




Exactly. There is no legal issue with party affiliation of the members and how it plays out in how they vote.  The congress is following the law, and the senate is following the law.  Why are people complaining about the partisan aspect of the process?  Are they butthurt Trump got reprimanded so they are trying to invalidate it?


Edited by JohnRainy (12/22/19 07:12 PM)


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Onlinekoods
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: JohnRainy]
    #26396195 - 12/22/19 07:17 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

I will point out once again when the constitution was written senators were appointed not elected


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”


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OfflineJohnRainy
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Re: The abuse of power which led to impeachment [Re: koods]
    #26396204 - 12/22/19 07:21 PM (4 years, 1 month ago)

How does that fit with this?


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